I went out clubbing last night in the beautful city of Norwich and i am happy to say from the hours of 9pm till 3:30am i didnt recieve a single insult. I got asked my gender twice, but in a polite way that didnt upset me. I had an older gentleman ask for my phone number (i politely declined lol). We went to three clubs and a pub and by the end of the night i really felt like a "normal human being" which is very rare for me. So thank you england for being such a friendly place for a 22 year old trans woman who doesnt pass!
How wonderful for you! I'm so thrilled to see people starting to accept us. It's only getting better!
And as far as passing goes.... you'll get there. Really.
Chin up!
Cindi
Hey, good for you (and good for Norwich) - I started my transition there last year before I moved to Devon, Norwich is a good town (oh, and the best chips in the universe are to be had at Straits Fish & Chips in Sheringham :)).
There are always going to be idiots out there and you have to be careful. However, I have noticed a change in people's reactions and to be honest, most people couldn't give a jot. I think recent changes in the law and the better profile we get in the media is helping. You see a lot less of the 'Shock, Horror, he's becoming a girl' stories in the media. People are also less confused about gender difference and don't automatically think trans means gay. Important discrimination legislation has been passed in the last few years and I salute those of us who have lobbied parliament and the media in our cause. putting yourself in the public spotlight is not easy and I for one would not wish to attract such attention.
Things are changing slowly but I still think that the idiot radar needs to be kept switched on.
Fish n Chips?
How painfully anglo saxon XD
I ain't no Anglo Saxon, thank you very much, I'm a Jew ;D. I don't do the fish (can't eat the wheaty batter anyway) but chips are originally a French invention, as it happens :). The ones from Straits are crispy and a little brown, and not the usual "paper bag full of pus" that most British chips seems to aspire to.
Hahaaha so sorry. XD
I've never been to much into the fried fish either. I always prefered the hamburgers myself. : )
But aussie chip standerds really are much better. ;p
Right, and you can't get a decent pie floater in Norfolk either ;).
Fish and Chips has become associated with the UK but it's history goes back much further. Basically the two elements were sold seperately and it took an influx if italian ice cream sellers in the 19th century to put them together. Basically they were looking for a winter market when ice cream didn't sell. It is arguable whether chips developed from french fries, I think it most likely that many places fried potatoes and that chips and fries were created by morphic resonanace. The batter never used to be eaten but I also believe it's origins are jewish (shellfish aren't kosha but most other fishes are).
I've also heard the version of Padma and while I have huge respec t for her, I have to agree with Pippa, that the origins may be somewhat different.
I have to say, though, it is rare to get decent fish and chips anywhere now.
I came to this country in the mid 60s and lived in a small village in the Midlands. There was a chip shop there of the type that were all over the UK. My first experience of English food.
The point was, they used dripping to fry.
You can buy dripping in some butchers and supermarkets. though only small quantities. If you get some, try shallow frying with it. Not quite the same as the old chippie deep fried but the taste is still quite amazing.
Frankly, it's my experience that French food is all colour and no taste. It's also incredibly greesy for some strange reason. Though not being a chef, I have to assume it's because it's French.
English food may be quite plain but, health fascists aside, the taste is incredable. Buy meat now-a-days, the fat has been cut off. Supposedly it cloggs our arteries. Yet people ate it for centuries, often all they did eat.
Hmm, more extensive chip research suggests Belgium rather than France, dating from the 1600's. But I was really just responding to the Anglo Saxon quip, and specifically about chips, not the f&c combo :) - I don't really care where they came from (they may well have arrived in England via Italy, but they didn't originate in Italy), but they definitely didn't come from England!
Still trying to find somewhere local that does gluten-free fish batter, sigh.
lol i cant believe this has turned into an indepth discussion of fish and chips. I like the battered cod but i dont really like chips so i generally just get a piece of cod and eat it where no-one will judge me for it :P
Heh, "in-depth" is flattering it, innit? ;D Anyway, Norfolk has lots to offer apart from its exceptional chips :). Sheringham Park on the north coast is bloody amazing, especially in spring when all the Rhododendrons and Azaleas are in bloom.
Bawsey Woods, Thetford Forest, Wells dunes and pine forest. I love them all lol
Quote from: El on January 23, 2012, 08:40:11 AM
Bawsey Woods, Thetford Forest, Wells dunes and pine forest. I love them all lol
And on the townie front, if you like funky little bars, Franks Bar is both little and funky, and plays good music (and always has great gluten-free cakes *bows down*) :).
Sounds great, now i know where to go if i ever take a vacation :D.
Quote from: Padma on January 23, 2012, 08:33:48 AM
Hmm, more extensive chip research suggests Belgium rather than France, dating from the 1600's. But I was really just responding to the Anglo Saxon quip, and specifically about chips, not the f&c combo :) - I don't really care where they came from (they may well have arrived in England via Italy, but they didn't originate in Italy), but they definitely didn't come from England!
Still trying to find somewhere local that does gluten-free fish batter, sigh.
I really think you're wrong there Padma. I understood the origins to be the seaside holidays taken by working class city dwellers. They were used to chips from home and combined with locally caught fish, in the seaside towns.
But regardless, the dish died with the introduction of recycled oil and the US style fries, which taste so like cardboard as to be spooky has finished them off.
Did find this though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_and_chips (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_and_chips)
I've never been talking about the origin of "fish & chips", I've always just been talking about the origin of chips :). I've got no idea about "fish & chips", and no idea how this became a discussion of the origin of "fish & chips", but it wasn't my doing - but I'll take your word for it on the origins of that immortal pairing :).
That's great to hear! :)
I'll be going to England for the first time in March and it's nice to know that people are open minded.
I'll be in London though, does anyone know how people treat trans* people there?
I pass 100% but I haven't had my gender or name changed yet so I'm a bit nervous about that.
Congrats el
Quote from: Padma on January 22, 2012, 12:19:23 PM
Right, and you can't get a decent pie floater in Norfolk either ;).
You do realise that only tourists eat pie floaters? And they really are a 'speciality' of Adelaide - the city that ended up with a large slab of the 10 Pound Poms...
Ooooooff-topic hi-jacking!
What's the difference between a club and a pub?
Quote from: kelly_aus on January 23, 2012, 08:33:07 PM
You do realise that only tourists eat pie floaters? And they really are a 'speciality' of Adelaide - the city that ended up with a large slab of the 10 Pound Poms...
You do realise I'm kidding, right? ;) I never had a pie floater when I was visiting Oz, but that's because I can't eat wheat :).
Quote from: A on January 23, 2012, 10:27:24 PM
Ooooooff-topic hi-jacking!
What's the difference between a club and a pub?
Loosely, a pub is a "public house", which means you can just walk in (if you're old enough) and buy drinks, and often food too.
A club almost always has an entrance fee, and then you can buy drinks, and often food too, but for way higher prices. And they usually feature bloody loud music, and people dress up/down to go there, and they stay open late. Why anyone would want to go there baffles me, but it's all personal taste, innit? (actually, I feel the same about pubs, but then I'm not a drinkin' gal) :)
When I was a student in Dundee (yes, I know that is in Scotland but bear with me) I was always amused by two very english customs in the town, the first was the buster, a meat pie with mushy peas on the top, and secondly, the practice of putting gravy on top of your chips. Both of these customs seem to originate in the North of England and I presume that they sneaked in when Dundee was a major whaling port. In my home town, the fish must be haddock and you put chippy sauce on (a mixture of brown sauce and vinegar). The best chips are double fried in dripping (quicklyat 190 degrees and then more slowly at 140 degrees). Good chip shops I have frequented are Mary's Cafe in Whitby and the Ashvale in Aberdeen.
Pubs and night clubs need different licences there are also private members clubs which require people to become members to enter.
Boy, are we going way off topic!
This thread is making me hungry.
You make me want to visit england someday. :)
Come on over - we have lardless food too, tha' knows :).
I guess I really meant "lard" in its more generic sense of grease-laden, deep-fried and all that. You can still get lardy cakes in Edinburgh, if your tastes run to rancid animal fat :).
I've been really missing falafel in pitta bread, which is becoming another English standard (glad to discover gluten-free pitta, but it lacks structural integrity when moist, so falafel is hazardous).
Now back to the original topic! from a gender acceptance point of view England or the U.K is probably better than a lot of countries. But if you live in the inner cities you may find it harder than those in more accepting towns like Norwich.
But the economic climate, the high unemployment problem, the minimum wage, the very high cost of food and living compared to the USA and other countries, the very high taxes, the eradication of the NHS etc makes me want to move to another country. Many people who are transsexual are struggling in this country just to survive, let alone be able to pay for their treatment costs if they find the NHS is not helping them.
I also think that other countries have much better systems in place to deal with the treatment of gender dysphoria. The NHS is still in the Victorian age and after going through that horrendous NHS path for over 6 years I'm convinced I would have been far better off in the USA, Germany or Holland. Private healthcare in the U.K is still limited but it hasn't helped matters when meddling NHS GIC psychiatrists try and put more experienced private consultants who are doing a very good job out of business.
Just to add balance to the view -
I don't know why you spent 6 years in the system, did you have other issues complicating things?
It was 3 years almost to the day from me first telling GP that I was transsexual to lying me down on the operating table at CX for my SRS.
Quote from: A on January 23, 2012, 10:27:24 PM
What's the difference between a club and a pub?
Ideally, one is a dark dingy place where you find a corner for yourself and friends, drink pints and pints of locally brewed beer and sort out all the problems of the world and joke and laugh and feel like monarch of all you survey. The people at the bar know your name and sometimes fling some free nuts at you or a free pint. There is a juke box with quiet music, usually some old men playing dominoes, and a dart board. - My local is like this, I love it.
Ideally, the other is a big room, with lots of cheap drink that plays lots of 50s rock and roll and 60s girl groups where you drink yourself dizzy and dance yourself sweaty.
Lard is pig fat, dripping is beef fat. Some pastry contains suet, also animal fat. Fish and chips cooked properly shoulnn't be greasy. By hot frying at 190 degrees the insinde should be sealed and fat should not enter the fish or potato. When put in the cooler 140 degree oil the fish/potato should cook in it's own steam. The worst diet in Britain is the West Central belt of Scotland where they will deep fry anything. Deep fried Pizza is particularly disgusting as the dough soaks up oil like a sponge (yes, they do deep fry pizza). However, if you avoid the crap, food in the UK is extremely varied and you can eat virtually any world cuisine. Portion sizes are luckily far smaller than in the US.
As for trans safety, I would avoid Lothian Road in Edinburgh, it is usually full of pissed up idiots. I would't go into the pink triangle of Broughton Street/Picardy Place/ Royal terrace unaccompanied. Although this is the main centre for the LGBT community in Edinburgh, there are lots of very dodgy gay pick up and cruising spots and quite a bit of homophobic crime.
I hadn't clocked that lard is pig fat (makes sense, since lard is French for bacon :)). But dripping can be any animal fat - beef dripping is beef, etc. I can't believe I'm being pedantic about this, sorry - waiting for breakfast (fish pie - hormones make you do the wacky).
Good food anywhere on these islands is amazing. But food, like so many things, is modified by finance. Hence, frying at low temperatures, because it's cheaper, for example.
In the days when i did regularly go out to eat, my days in Edinburgh as it happens, I found that resturants tend to be at their best in their first 12 months. After that, with a regular client base, they would be bought out, costs cut to increase profit, so reduce standards. One, I recall, started in West Bow. It served sort of German/Italian type food with a very British accent. Kinda tacky, with wooden floors and wads of paper under the table legs. In the toilets, the walls were painted with black poster paint, so people would bring in a pocket full of chalk and write things on the wall. When it was bought out, they lowered cooking tempertures and used cheap bread.
For some reason, the British seem to generally make disgusting bread.
If all the places I've lived, I have to say I miss Edinburgh the most. It will be a very different place today of course, but it was always so exciting in a very stayed sort of way. Like an alien could arrive from outer space and someone might comment, 'Aye weel, so wit else is happenin'?'.
Great thread by the way.
Best vegetarian restaurant I ever went to was in Edinburgh, run by the people who brought us Pierre Victoire, but called Pierre Lapin (Peter Rabbit :)). Goddamn, was there a lot of cream involved... and cute waiters ;D.
Quote from: Steffi on January 24, 2012, 11:16:18 AM
Just to add balance to the view -
I don't know why you spent 6 years in the system, did you have other issues complicating things?
It was 3 years almost to the day from me first telling GP that I was transsexual to lying me down on the operating table at CX for my SRS.
Well aren't you the lucky one! and no I didn't have any other issues! I started my transition in 2001 and have been FT ever since.
Those of you who seem to have an easy ride with the U.K NHS GIC system are quick to criticise those of us who have had a hard time with the NHS GIC without knowing the facts. I for one do not love England and don't spend much time there anymore.
Just to de-rail slightly :laugh:
The last time I was in the UK, about 15 yrs ago we went for a pub lunch somewhere in Yorkshire. Rogan Josh was the days special on the blackboard, my USA born wife looked at it and asked whether it was some strange dish like Yorkshire pudding.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on January 25, 2012, 11:17:57 PM
Well aren't you the lucky one! and no I didn't have any other issues! I started my transition in 2001 and have been FT ever since.
Those of you who seem to have an easy ride with the U.K NHS GIC system are quick to criticise those of us who have had a hard time with the NHS GIC without knowing the facts. I for one do not love England and don't spend much time there anymore.
Wow, im sorry you have had such a hard time of it. I dont really know anyone who has got bad to say about the NHS in regards to the GIC, im annoyed as they set me back 6 months with some lost paperwork but 6 years? How did that happen, what was the problem?
Ok, Iam only at the start of the process but things seem to have changed a bit. I remember the BBC series 'Sex Change' which followed a patient through the process. That was in the early 80's and it was obvious that the clinic staff were deliberately making transition as difficult as possible.
So far I have found the NHS staff brilliant and they even address the bad press they got on their website.
Re food in the UK. It is one of the great things about the UK is that we are willing to experience the cuisines of the world. Not only that we are willing to fuse techniques and flavours and try something new. In my local town, you can eat Thai, Chinese, Indian, Mongolian, french, Italian and Argentinian and that is only a small regional town.
British food gets a bad rap. Like any cuisine, cooked badly it is horrible but cooked well it can match any other cuisine in the world.
Quote from: El on January 26, 2012, 01:55:51 AM
Wow, im sorry you have had such a hard time of it. I dont really know anyone who has got bad to say about the NHS in regards to the GIC, im annoyed as they set me back 6 months with some lost paperwork but 6 years? How did that happen, what was the problem?
I will PM you off forum with more details but there are plenty of people who have had bad experiences over the years with the London NHS GIC. They set me back over six years within a twelve year transitional time period. You mention they lost your paperwork, well they mixed my paperwork up with another patient of a similar name and age which caused an awful lot of problems. This was not exposed until I asked the Healthcare Commission to investigate them on my behalf.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on January 25, 2012, 11:17:57 PM
Well aren't you the lucky one! and no I didn't have any other issues! I started my transition in 2001 and have been FT ever since.
Those of you who seem to have an easy ride with the U.K NHS GIC system are quick to criticise those of us who have had a hard time with the NHS GIC without knowing the facts. I for one do not love England and don't spend much time there anymore.
Sorry, I seem to have hit a nerve there :(
..... and Yes, I have been very lucky indeed in all respects and I DO know it. I'm not a person inclined to gloat -I do have sympathy for those who have a harder time with the system and I know several, but in most cases there has been another issue causing complications
e.g. a girl who was 6 months ahead of me on the NHS Gender Pathway is now 18 months behind and counting. In her case the problem was weight and despite being aware throughout RLE that it may become an issue, she arrived at her pre-surgery inspection overweight and was told by the surgeon that he would operate but was postponing surgery until she fell below a certain weight threshold. 12 months later she is still downing pints of lager every night, has negligible weight loss and regularly lambasts the system for "failing her."
I am also aware that some of the GIC's and/or PCT's
( ... for USA readers - PCT = Primary Care Trusts, the local bodies who control the funding within their area of the UK) are more difficult than others. e.g. whereas Charing Cross London do two initial Assessments of one hour each approx 3 months apart, another GIC ( Leeds??) do six Assessments a month apart.
One PCT has repeatedly been in trouble for effectively operating a "blanket-ban" on SRS :(
I know of one person who has been living in-role and attending their GIC for SIX YEARS who has only recently been prescribed hormones - I have no idea whether they have other issues complicating the situation.
I said nothing in any way offensive in my original post; I simply told my own experience of the system and asked whether there was any problem specific to you personally which had affected your progress. Those who have difficultywith the system are understandably very vocal whereas those who had no significant trouble say little. Many of them will not even be on trans forums because they have simply got their problems solved and moved on with their lives.
It is important that a view has balance, because for every person complaining there are dozens who had a fairly smooth run through though I agree that the system is far from perfect.
QuotePrivate healthcare in the U.K is still limited but it hasn't helped matters when meddling NHS GIC psychiatrists try and put more experienced private consultants who are doing a very good job out of business.
Does that refer to the recent events with a well known London gender specialist?
If so then
from what I heard of the situation, the problem was that he was sending clients off to Thailand with only his signature on the Approval For Surgery letter and the second signature necessary to comply with international standards was supplied by a Thai psych mere hours before surgery.
As the patient has already flown out there and surgery time is booked it seems very unlikely indeed that this second signature would not be given as a matter of course and expediancy, therefore bypassing the intent of the two separate signature requirement.
- If that is indeed the case, then I am supportive of the action of London GIC. The Dr concerned has not been put out of business, he has been put under supervision which in the above circumstances seems reasonable to me.
Quote from: Steffi on January 26, 2012, 09:28:18 AM
It is important that a view has balance, because for every person complaining there are dozens who had a fairly smooth run through though I agree that the system is far from perfect. Does that refer to the recent events with a well known London gender specialist?
If so then from what I heard of the situation, the problem was that he was sending clients off to Thailand with only his signature on the Approval For Surgery letter and the second signature necessary to comply with international standards was supplied by a Thai psych mere hours before surgery.
As the patient has already flown out there and surgery time is booked it seems very unlikely indeed that this second signature would not be given as a matter of course and expediancy, therefore bypassing the intent of the two separate signature requirement.
- If that is indeed the case, then I am supportive of the action of London GIC. The Dr concerned has not been put out of business, he has been put under supervision which in the above circumstances seems reasonable to me.
No, that wasn't the case at all. It was a private patient who was referred privately for GRS and after surgery decided it wasn't for her and went to complain to the NHS GIC about the private consultant. The private consultant has now had restrictions put on him by the GMC that he can no longer make referrals for GRS. But I know of several people who went through the NHS London GIC system who had surgery and regretted it afterwards and reverted back to their original gender, so the balance of regretful patients be it private or NHS is about the same. Although I've never met the private consultant this is not the first time the head clinician at the NHG GIC has launched a case against a private psychiatrist.
I'm fully supportive of private consultants as it was the only way for me to start on prescription HRT back in 2003. I also don't like the way the GIC psychiatrists act like gods and try and manipulate, mentally abuse and control patients lives usually affecting their health and increasing their depression buy stalling their progress. I don't agree with the way the GIC is run and regret ever attending the clinic. I witnessed total incompetence from them and they mixed up my medical files with other patients files.
Also did you read the PM I sent to you?
Congratulations on having a great night out with no problems, based on my recent experiences I would have to say that my home town of Bristol is not a good place to transition, i've had verbal abuse quite alot & had to talk my way out of fights twice.
On the subject of transitioning on the NHS, it's a very slow lumbering slog so far, I saw my GP early last February & my first appointment with the London GIC is at the end of March so it's taken almost 14 months to get on the first rung of the ladder.
I hope the NHS pace picks up a bit after March or i'll be getting my bus pass before my SRS ::) I just hope I get SRS before I hit 40 or evryone will be pulling my leg that this is just a mid life crisis :P
Quote from: Jane on January 26, 2012, 11:13:40 AM
On the subject of transitioning on the NHS, it's a very slow lumbering slog so far, I saw my GP early last February & my first appointment with the London GIC is at the end of March so it's taken almost 14 months to get on the first rung of the ladder.
I hope the NHS pace picks up a bit after March or i'll be getting my bus pass before my SRS ::) I just hope I get SRS before I hit 40 or evryone will be pulling my leg that this is just a mid life crisis :P
That's what I hoped that it would be all done and dusted before I was 40 and now here I am well past 40 and still fighting!
Quote from: spacial on January 25, 2012, 09:08:04 AM
Good food anywhere on these islands is amazing. But food, like so many things, is modified by finance. Hence, frying at low temperatures, because it's cheaper, for example.
In the days when i did regularly go out to eat, my days in Edinburgh as it happens, I found that resturants tend to be at their best in their first 12 months. After that, with a regular client base, they would be bought out, costs cut to increase profit, so reduce standards. One, I recall, started in West Bow. It served sort of German/Italian type food with a very British accent. Kinda tacky, with wooden floors and wads of paper under the table legs. In the toilets, the walls were painted with black poster paint, so people would bring in a pocket full of chalk and write things on the wall. When it was bought out, they lowered cooking tempertures and used cheap bread.
For some reason, the British seem to generally make disgusting bread.
If all the places I've lived, I have to say I miss Edinburgh the most. It will be a very different place today of course, but it was always so exciting in a very stayed sort of way. Like an alien could arrive from outer space and someone might comment, 'Aye weel, so wit else is happenin'?'.
Great thread by the way.
I go to university just outside of Edinburgh :D
ps. Anstruther fish bar in Anstruther just outside of st. andrews in Fife (Scotland for those that don't know :)) does the best fish and chips
pps. we brits make nice bread :p
Quote from: Beverley on January 26, 2012, 06:47:09 AM
I remember listening to a french chef saying that many other french chef loved London because in France there was a recognised way to cook a given dish and experimentation and variation was not allowed, whereas in London experimentation was the norm.
Another plus about the UK is its level of tolerance. When you read what some of the american transitioners go through it is like they are dealing with a medieval village. I simply cannot imagine such things happening here. England and Wales are very tolerant places, Northern Ireland less so and I have not lived in Scotland so I cannot say, but many scots I have met have been decent, tolerant folk.
Beverley
Oi! lol I'm originally from Northern Ireland (wheeyyyy for us Brits :D) and we be more tolerant than people make us out to be haha
sorryjust realised this is in the mtf forum. Hope you ladies don't mind me posting :p
You are very welcome sir
Quote from: El Capitan on January 26, 2012, 12:26:50 PM
I go to university just outside of Edinburgh :D
ps. Anstruther fish bar in Anstruther just outside of st. andrews in Fife (Scotland for those that don't know :)) does the best fish and chips
pps. we brits make nice bread :p
Good tip, though I doubt I'll be in that part of the world any time soon.
As for Bread, sorry, not they don't. Some individuals make good bread and even sell it. But most bread in the UK is basically the same, bland sponge, with very little taste and a texture that is designed to turn to goo when you eat it.
No offense, this is a light hearted discussion after all.
I once knew a fellow who owned a number of chipships in Glasgow. I asked him why chips are always so bad. He told me, he can and has cooked really nice chips, simply by heating the fat and blanching, ie cooking twice. But people kept sending them back claiming they didn't taste right.
A similar experience in a bar in Edinburgh in 1975. I got a job there for a short while. It was Bennets. At that time it sold beer from wooden barrels, brought up to the taps using traditional, very Scottish methods. None of your sucking pumps as approved by CAMRA. there. The beer would come out crystal clear, with a slight sparkle. In cold weather it had little or no head. They used a cooler simply because of demand, but it was kept deliberately so the beer wasn't too cold and the flavour remained. Every day, at least one person would complain the beer was flat.
Though we're still talking about Scotland here and the subject is England. Both wonderful and interesting countries, yet so very different.
And please don't worry about being FtM. It's great to have your input
I have fish and chips once a week at home. No batter on the fish. Place in the oven in a dish with a drop of olive oil. Same with the chips. A lot better than the greaseproof paper and newspaper wrappings we used to get in Yarmouth (Norfolk) in the old days. LOL
I was in the UK in 2001 and 2003 and had a great time. I will get back there again one day I hope.
Padma, I am not surprised you can't find a good 'Pie Floater' in Norwich. Good and Pie Floater don't belong in the same sentence!
As for the cod I decided that it is overrated, and haddock is far nicer. The chips were not generally that great, a lot greasier than here, Oz chips are crisper. The kilo pot of mussels in Ullapool made up for that though when I got into Scotland. Yum!!
As for the lard, it is being hoarded by the Little Chef on the M6. I am sure I actually ended up with a lardburger, with extra lard, lard chips and lard flavoured coke! It was a surreal experience, straight out of an old episode of "Z-Cars" or similar time warp.
Karen.
You can tell Karen doesn't come from Adelaide, home of the pie floater :laugh:
My Grandfather use to love 'dripping butties' which are very Scouse.
During WW2 people in Australia used to save their dripping and put it in tins to send to England in an official "Dripping for England" drive! I kid you not!
Oh I'm going to get a T-shirt "I drip for Poms" should go great in the next Ashes.
Maybe I would enjoy England, I do like tea.
Oh and the accent is nice, or the lack there of.
I wanna go there now!
Honey,
The accents are all over the place :laugh:
I need to find me an accent. :U
I emigrated from Liverpool to Australia when I was 23. Terribly homesick I went back the following Christmas. No one seemed to understand me in Australia due to my accent. I got into a taxi at Lime Street rail intersection. I told the guy where to go, his reply was " So what part of the world are you from?'
Mmm
Quote from: Zylphia on January 27, 2012, 02:10:34 AM
I need to find me an accent. :U
If I were to define one characteristic of England, it would be the amazing, nay, astonishing number of completely different accents.
In the city where I live, on the south coast, there are three. I kid you not. Hog is the traditional working class accent, that has largely but not completely been replaced with a newer one, which has elements of Essex and hog. Then there's the Grammer school accent.
People in England tend to judge each other according to their accents. Originally, anything other than, what is termed Preceived, as spoken by the Queen, basically, upper class East Anglian with some Buckingham mix, was seen as ignorant, ill-educated, working class. Now, many regional accents are seen as educated, with only some of the stronger ones continuing to be associated with lower classes. Essex, West Country, Liverpool and so on.
Irish people also have an enormous number of local accents with variations, but I have found no custom there to show any real interest at all. And the French obscession with pronounciation is absent.
It's sad that Britains haven't yet matured enough, as a society, to see each of these for what they are. But expereicne suggests that, just before that happens they will go through a period of contrivance which will essentially make them little more than a joke, rather like many native peoples have become.
An interesting custom in much of Scotland which is rarely, if ever, seen in any other part of the British Isles, is to try to guess where people are from, by their accents. Many people, especially in W Scotland, where the generally accepted norm is to be much more forth coming to the point of almost intrusive directness, will get quite angry, even offended to the point of anger, of you refuse to co-operate with this. If they get it wrong, for example, they generally demand to know exactly where you come from and I have, on a number of occasions, even been told I was lying, when I denied coming from a particular area.
In Scotland my accent, for example, was often taken as being almost precieved. Here in England, it used to be American, latterly, Scottish. My wife is often referred to as the'Wee Fat Black girl', which she finds incredably funny. But that the Scottish elements in mine are basically Edinburgh, while hers are basically Glasgow, is of no consequence, for the English.
Late edit. After reading Pippa's post, further down, I have realised I made reference to Preceived accents, when I was actually referring to Received.
Sorry and if anyone thinks that makes me look silly then please be assured it can't be a silly as I feel. :laugh:
All I know is that if I get one roadie from Scotland I'll barely be able to understand him, if I get two all hope is lost. And if the entire crew is from Scotland I just give up and try to find a translator.
Have you noticed that, Scots especially, but people from the British Isles generally, seem to have even more extreme accents when a group of them are together in the presence of non Britons?
(I make that point as you seem to have experienced this with Scottish roadies).
Whenever my Australian ex-wife talked to her sisters on the phone, her broad Temora twang got way broader :). Most cute. "...Soooo..."
Kia Ora,
::) I was born in London but I've lived the best part of my life in Oz[17 years] and NZ[20 odd years] and for the most part I've still got a bloody Cockney accent, and the locals are always commenting on it especially because I don't pronounce my "H's"...When my children were young their idea of fun was to ask me to pronounce words that began with an "H", they would crack up when I said ouse, orse, ome, etc...However for me I'm "H" deaf I really can't tell when somebody "H'ing" a word ...
::) But when I've visited London I'm told I have an Aussie/Kiwi accent...
Metta Zenda :)
I used to work with a girl originally from Bristol. Normally she spoke with received pronunciation but when she went home her accent was pure west country. It was hilarious.
I lived in and around Bristol for 9 years, all in all. I loved the difference between Norf Brizzl (really fast and clipped), and Seouf Brizzl (soft and slow, more Somerset - "Alroight, moi loveeeerrr?"). I've never quite managed to stop saying "teu'ally" for "totally", it's charming :).
But I still have at least a half-charge of Norf Lahndon from growing up there, and having to learn to talk 'ard out of protective mimicry at school. It comes out at the most unexpected of times ::).
Having left England 60 years, I returned for one of my holiday 5 years ago and was in a pub and started speaking in my native Norfolk dialect only to be told we don't speak like that any more.
The youth of Norfolk have a new dialect now that is part "old norfolk" part London and part Essex. Theres still plenty of old norfolk speakers though, my mum speaks without a real accent but when she talks to someone "old norfolk" it suddenly all goes "cum yu longa us bor"
Although I was born in Australia, my father was from Belfast and apparently I spoke with an Ulster accent until I started school. I can still hear traces of it in my voice from time to time.
I felt the same about England too. Incredibly kind people!! I have been there numerous times and have yet to have a bad experience. :)
seem to have even more extreme accents when a group of them are together in the presence of non Britons?
I tell ya it's almost hysterical backstage and in production at the big rock festivals where you have Americans(East, West and South), Aussies and Kiwis (sorry they sound the same to me, I know they are not), a couple of cats from London, and the usual assortment of Glasgow/Edinburgh lads (there are a lot of Scottish roadies who all seem to make Groundskeeper Willie a model not a stereotype, just like there are a lot of Good-Old Boy Southerner roadies, I'm not sure why - work ethic???) all trying to communicate while obstinately speaking the same language. Hilarity ensues! And the combined force of what your saying - that just having one other Glaswegain there makes them both thicker, and a couple of good old boys reinforce that for each other and so it's all working at cross purposes to get worse, not better. What did Churchill say? Two countries divided by a common language. Its very much that. Except its more like 4 countries divided by a common language.
I think it's all people everywhere. Same deal over here, you get one Southerner - not too bad - you get three and all of sudden you think you're trapped in Gone With the Wind. Four or more Native New Yorkers in a room and it's like being in Yankee Stadium. Add to that the people who are natural mimics (many of whom have a great gift for learning languages because of it). My ex was like that. Take any two or three people speaking in a natural accent, like someone from "'Lanta" or "N'awlins" (the way natives somewhere speak it, differentiated from the way people speak English if its not their first or primary language) and come back 20 minutes later and you can't tell that she wasn't born and raised there. And it wasn't like she was putting on airs or affectations, she did it quite naturally.
Now I can't do it at all. (Can't tune a guitar w/o an oscilloscope either and those two things do go together) Spent decades trying to get that rolled 'r' sound down the way Mexicans and Cholos speak Spanish and Spanglish here before I could do it right.* And I could never get that guttural 'back of the throat' 'ch' sound from Yiddish no matter how much I tried. Too goy. My French (which I know well, fluent in reading) is so bad that French people plead with me to stop trying and really they'd rather speak English if that's what I'm going to do to their mother tongue. I'm a virtual Portsmouth Symphonia of languages. I do the same thing to German in reverse. And I'd get killed in someplace like China because meaning in Chinese is connected with pitch even more than the consonant/vowel sounds, so the same word on the page has radically different meanings in conversation depending on how it is pitched. (In fact since traditional written Chinese is an idiomatic language it didn't even have a consonant/vowel notion until it was superimposed on top of it fairly recently.)
--Actually to the point, somewhat--
And I was wondering if you have a gender deal tied into the class/geography deal with the accents. Like in the US it seems that the lovely lilt and draw that is the deep Southern accent is thought to be very sexy when a female is using it. All soft and slow and sweet y'all. But if a male talks like that it's instant Goober/Gomer Pyle drop the IQ 30 points time. I've always loved women speaking in the heavy Irish accent (I used to go pick my kid up from Montessori way early so I could sit in on story time because one of his teachers was from Dublin and I just loved to hear her read stuff like The Velveteen Rabbit - I'm not even going to tell you what she did to me when she read Winnie the Pooh) but don't care much for how men sound with it - do a lot of men work to change that (like they do in the US, professional males are highly encouraged to drop the heavier parts of the Southern accent - (also the Boston thing and the several New York/Jersey accents - because they are all associated in some way with lower class - even though, of course, we have no classes in America, LOL) in favor of a plain Midwest pronunciation, where girls never do that. Do aspiring young Scotsmen and Irish men try to get rid of that kind of accent when the women do not?
* - It's a very strange thing that's gone down in California during my life. Of course - since they were the original settlers - everything in California (including the world 'California') has Spanish place names, Sierra Nevada, San Jose, Santa Rosa - but when I was growing up they were all pronounced with a very flat Western American English accent, but now I mostly hear them in a Mexican pronunciation/accent - the rolled 'r', Santa as one syllable not two, (ie. not like Santa in Santa Claus) and the very soft Mexican pronunciation of the "J" as more of an English 'H'. In part I think it was because all the home-boys and girls were forever riding our gringo ass about it and correcting our pronunciation going back in the early days of Latino Pride and La Raza in the '60s. And I think there was an effort to do it out of a notion of embracing diversity and our shared heritage and history, a way of emphisising that unlike the East and South, that we are not an Anglo culture out here on the Left Coast, but a Hispanic one. We are most decidedly not NEW England, we are not any sort of England at all. This is Aztlan. And part of that whole Aztlan/Western coming-of-age deal worked to dump the Anglicized version of the place names and replace it with the truer and original Hispanic pronunciations. Still I find it funny from time to time listening to some top-of-the-line highly educated executive or lawyer drop those barrio pronunciations into their sentences like they were low-riding Chicano home-boys straight outta the Mission.
I can see what you mean, but in England, accent is associated with social class.
Until comparatively recently, perhaps about 50 years ago, any accent other than received or BBC English was associated with lower class and therefore poor education.
Today, many regional accents are associated with education, perhaps with the breakdown in social barriers to education. But some are still seen as such, Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester, West country, for example.
I'm not really aware of any accents being associated with sexuality or attractiveness in any way, other than French.
Italian is a very beautiful language. It is sweet and lyrical without being effeminate and old-maid fussy like French.
Quote from: spacial on January 28, 2012, 04:02:46 PM
I'm not really aware of any accents being associated with sexuality or attractiveness in any way, other than French.
*cough* Fenella Fielding *cough*
Do You Mind If I Smoke? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36m2jLl0Me4#)
Yes, there is her.
Not is any way to go try to trump that, but this is similar scene from what I personally
think is the only Carry On film that was actually funny.
Carry on Cleo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KCzdLiWeSU#)