I've noticed this on every online trans forum I have been on since 1995. Many discussions quickly turn to personally attacking the other person. If I had a dollar for every time someone negatively critiqued my appearance or my life (without my asking for it) in the middle of a discussion, usually on an unrelated topic, I'd be rich. I post here to give people the benefit of my experience both as an totally out middle gendered person and as someone who has moved to being a woman. Then I'm told "People just are humoring you" etc. Never mind being told all the crap about "until you have had SRS like I have, you are a MAN period." *sigh*
For a group of people who are still fighting for civil rights and public acceptance, we sure don't seem to extend any of this to others. It's not my job to try to figure out why most trans, and many GLB seem to be the most intolerant people I ever deal with. I specifically avoid 'transgender centers' and support groups for this very reason. The only person in my neighborhood that has been publicly abusive to me is a gay woman.
I know I'm a woman. I am treated as one and never have ANY weirdness in my life, but according to some of the people here "You're just lucky" "You are a parody of a woman" "You might think you are passing but you aren't". They have NO IDEA what my life is like but their goal seems to be: drag other people down with all their negativity. To see if they can plant a seed of insecurity. This is what I see in every "support group" I have interacted in. Not a very positive experience.
I really just don't get why unless their life sucks, they hate themselves and need to try to make other people miserable too? It's simply pathetic.
Quote from: Stephe on January 31, 2012, 10:56:19 PM
I really just don't get why unless their life sucks, they hate themselves and need to try to make other people miserable too? It's simply pathetic.
I think that's really the sum of the matter, most times. We as a community tend to have a lot of self-hatred, and sometimes we take it out on each other. It's sad.
I think this is the nature of online forums, too. I have belonged to many and it's the same everywhere - some people empower themselves by putting others down, some react because they feel threatened and some are, by nature, argumentative and snarky. But I also see a lot of people NOT doing those things, and they are the ones that make sites like this great.
Kia Ora Stephe,
::) "Misery loves company !"
Metta Zenda :)
Yes I agree, it's the same everywhere online, and there's lots of good people too.
Insecurity I would say. Some peoples self-image is so fragile that anyone from a broadly similar group who does not meet their own criteria for inclusion is automatically inferior. They basically have to have someone to feel superior to.
I prefer to regard everyone as a unique individual rather than a representative of a class, and ask why they are mean.
Karen.
Quote from: Stephe on January 31, 2012, 10:56:19 PM
I know I'm a woman. I am treated as one and never have ANY weirdness in my life, but according to some of the people here "You're just lucky" "You are a parody of a woman" "You might think you are passing but you aren't". They have NO IDEA what my life is like but their goal seems to be: drag other people down with all their negativity. To see if they can plant a seed of insecurity. This is what I see in every "support group" I have interacted in. Not a very positive experience.
I really just don't get why unless their life sucks, they hate themselves and need to try to make other people miserable too? It's simply pathetic.
Like you, I am treated as a woman, have had no weirdness or abuse or anything like that.. Even the GLB people I interact with treat me with respect.
To be honest, those that are throwing stones I see as people whose lives are obviously in a worse place than mine is and they are trying to drag me down to their level..
What hope do we have of winning our rights and the hearts and minds of others if we can't come together as a unified whole? The gay and lesbian communities seem to be doing it, even if sometimes it means stabbing us in the back. But they are getting things done!
It's quite simple really human beings aren't very nice. In spite of being supposedly intelligent most of them just follow the crowd and are easily manipulated without even realising that it's happening, sheepal. The internet give's feeble individuals the chance to be horrible without repercussions, similar thing happens with the phone, distance and anonymity are better than alcohol for making someone brave and spiteful. You may have seen the T shirt "Instead ->-bleeped-<- just add alcohol" There should be another one "spiteful opinionated uncaring b'stard sat behind a key board"
This thread is actually a bit frightening to me...
Maybe I'm lucky not having had any of such direct 'assaults' as mentioned in the OP.
And I dearly hope it will stay this way? Please...
I do get pissy though when folks come with those 'fanciful', 'semi-scientific' ideas, like e.g. HBS and what not, are themselves not directly affected, though affecting some of us directly.
Then going on defending some of this BS being banded about.
It's a bit like having rotten tomatoes thrown at you... not so easy to just laugh it off, or?
Maybe we are all just too vulnerable... and therefore pretty defensive when stuff like is banded about, like telling us we not "real" or some such.
Come to think of it, it be equally offence to tell any cis-guy or cis-girl they "NOT REAL" but hey, since they happen to hang around, we gonna be just fine with them...
Hell, how bloody arrogant can things get, some posts just seem to miss.
If we were COMPLETELY secure and self-assured (and who really is?) we would not even read such, and as a matter of fact may not even post, or even be on Susan's for that matter?
Pondering...
Axélle
Good points Axelle-Michelle. Personally I haven't experienced any such attacks, and would just shrug them off if they did occur with a ,"is that all you've got?" reply.
Karen.
Aussies come with a cool gene, eh honey? :-)
Germans of course do not... and so sen wat vee hav here is falur to co-mmunicate, ja!
:-)
Axélle
Stephe, you took the words right out of my mouth. It's also interesting that some who replied will bash other people and countries regularly. Hugs, Devlyn
I think it's typically lack of confidence, a lot of doubt and a need for validation. I see this a lot with discussion of Op status. It's like that one thing alone makes some people say "I am this which automatically makes me that" and assumes that whatever it makes them is shared by all members of the group. It then becomes polarizing. I don't know about you all, but my body parts don't really give me anything in common with anyone else. I'm a unique individual with all my quirks and my personality and my looks and body parts. We are all unique regardless of our transness. I try to celebrate the similarities we all have and find common ground, not find things that separate. I've been coming here since 2007 and I read forums every now and then but honestly, sometimes it's so caustic that I just avoid the posts with all the nasty stuff. This is online and as supportive as it is, there's a whole world out there waiting to be discovered. While I am online, I refuse to let it be a negative experience and get involved with negative people. Life's too short for that, right ;D Meghan
Misdirected anger, bitterness, maybe sometimes a bit of bat s**t craziness, all run rampant in the community in my opinion.
As Jaime said, I am absolutely certain that it has most, perhaps excludingly, to do with Bitterness.
Bitterness that in turn causes the sufferrer to, for instance in regards of online boards, deliberately misread what other people say, as an excuse to pick fights, hence having an excuse to "letting of steam", so to say.
And it is not only in the Trans-Community this is a phenomena, but also the Gay Community.
There are ofcourse many, many gay and trans-persons that are warm and absolutely wonderful people- After all, my best friends have been "Varianted", but some of those in the communities... Wow, is all I can say.
They are so extremely bitter that you are just stunned, really, and they pick fights with everyone.
On the other hand, I have found that those that are, often lacks self irony and humor, which is both very important factors to handle the everyday life if it is a life that comes with more difficulties than usual(Discrimination, Body dysphoria, and so on).
So remember, folks; Humour, humour, humour and LOVE yourself.
Bottom line is that it's sadly just human nature for those that look, think, believe and or act differently to dislike the other person. Democrats/Republicans, Socialists/Capitalists, White/Black, Catholic/Protestant. The world we live in is a polemic one with positives and negatives. The important thing to keep uppermost in mind is Rodney King's pregnant question: "Can't we just all get along?" We each have to answer that in our own hearts on a daily case by case basis or we are just going to be mean people too.
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on February 01, 2012, 03:50:56 AM
Aussies come with a cool gene, eh honey? :-)
Germans of course do not... and so sen wat vee hav here is falur to co-mmunicate, ja!
:-)
Axélle
Aha. An attack. :p
Actually, that's not true about Germans. My Mum can keep her cool just fine. ^_^
I however, cannot. Maybe because I am half German and half Scottish?
Well, maybe a 1/2 and 1/2 thing here also for me...
1/2 German and 1/2 US of A - with some Irish in it?
Now go tell me about the Irish 'cool gene' - without me cracking up :-)
Food for thought, yeah
Axélle
So let us not talk falsely now,
the hour is getting late.
Hi Stephe. I really don't understand why we are so mean to each other. I have tried for years to change policy in my state, but nothing happens because of all the infighting. And i have found most of it happens for one reason. that those of us, that are older, that have gone through alot of hardship, to get where we are at, have a hard time changing things so that those that are coming up now can have an easier time of it. It's like if we had to go through the tough stuff...everyone should have to go through the tough stuff. I agree, it's time for us to come together. If we can make things easier for those coming up, by fighting the good....together fight, why aren't we doing this?
Acceptance of being transgender is hard, and then how each of us deal with it. And also the reality that there are people who will never accept that we are really women or really men because no matter how much we change there is something we can't change yet and that is our y or x chromosome. And for transgender women today there is still so much discrimination against women and being effeminate there are those who just can't believe that there are those of us who have male bodies really feel that they are women and wish to get rid of a aspects of maleness. And as for transgender males, some people feel that nobody born with a female body can ever ascend to the lofty status of maleness.
For me I know I both accept and reject my femaleness but being anything male is too hard to contemplate. So because we suffer we hurt others who do not deal with being transgender like we do. I am afraid that taking hormones will damage my health yet I want to very much. And I also believe that I will never be able to afford surgery so I can't even think of having it. I know the truest test of me being a woman is going through with surgery and hormones because they will make me face the permanence of my feelings. Some who have suffered much to get surgery may feel that I am wimping out and therefore not really transgender. But our struggles are our own and we need to accept that and not judge others for we may be judged for judging. So some belittle and hurt. But I don't understand how one born male can say they are female and not be female no matter what they do about it. I can understand some males being willing to say they are men and just enjoy being effeminate and surround themselves with it or do female to earn a living. But to be born male and say I am female and I can't relate to maleness and being as female as they can while rejecting any thought of having a male identity. To me that makes one female, and then coping with maleness becomes a problem and painful. Then to have some bigot say that I can't be female because no matter what I do I will always have a y chromosome makes me want to have some gene therapy to have two X chromosomes and for the bigot to have gene therapy to get rid of the bigot gene.
Why must we fight over definitions and labels. There is no God committee to declare that it is sinful to be female or male for that part. The Bible says in the next life there is no female or male. So why is the God committee so omnipresent in my mind. I am 65 and no one cares that I am not a male. I clicked female on Face Book and made it public after having a feminine picture of myself on for months and there were no angry messages or puzzled messages from my friends who knew me as male nor was there any from my grown up kids. No one cared or they did not care enough to say anything about it. I was so worried about people disappearing like wiping my Face Book from their lives. If anyone cared they kept it to themselves and I was as invisible as I was before. The problem with no response was that it made me feel foolish for beating myself up and being worried for years that my whole life would explode if people knew that I was transgender. Did they miss that I became my grown kids mother or Face Book was calling me her. Or did they write off the change to some malfunction of the Face Book server.
I was not kind to myself. I know younger people have even scarier fear problems because they haven't begin their careers and families yet and fear they will never have one. Transgender women and men go the sperm and egg bank and save some of your sperms and eggs so some day you can have your own children and get your education in a field where your gender history doesn't matter.
We should respect and accept other transgender men and women's choices in how to deal and work to create a society where gender identity doesn't matter and everyone has their civil and marriage rights. For every individual the moral choices of how to deal should be left to the individual, their religious faith, and God because we each have to come to terms with our religious beliefs and accept God's judgement on our choices. Being ourselves is hard enough, so lets all be kind and understanding to everyone because each of needs that.
It could be that people simply are too emotionally invested in a topic, or that they have very thin skin and are constantly fearful that your opinion will somehow overcome their opinion, blah Blah Blah.
Hope that helps
Why are we so mean to each other? Well mostly because the tell us to be ,from baby on don't go out ,don't go with strangers,and yes there are a lot of creeps around but this is how it start.TV is a nice brainwasher to, the government is always on the good side and its OK for them to shoot anybody , a mother who shoot a rapist in here house is a criminal.
Somebody who dress strange is a weirdo , so later a guy in a dress is that to ,or a FTM .
The toys girls play with dolls guys with cars (sic) .Schools are a other nice place to learn how to become opinionated :)
And yes we are insecure, scared for what to come .And we have all other views on what,s nice looking ,cheap or stunning.
Part of the problem is we cant say what we think is true in our eyes .yes you look nice as we mean YUCK you ugly bitch (to a mtf) ,then others start to nag you put her down , yes but its honest.
No such thing as simple :) just try to be who you think you are, its a hard road but lead to your personal happiness
Quote from: Stephe on January 31, 2012, 10:56:19 PM
I've noticed this on every online trans forum I have been on since 1995. Many discussions quickly turn to personally attacking the other person. If I had a dollar for every time someone negatively critiqued my appearance or my life (without my asking for it) in the middle of a discussion, usually on an unrelated topic, I'd be rich. I post here to give people the benefit of my experience both as an totally out middle gendered person and as someone who has moved to being a woman. Then I'm told "People just are humoring you" etc. Never mind being told all the crap about "until you have had SRS like I have, you are a MAN period." *sigh*
For a group of people who are still fighting for civil rights and public acceptance, we sure don't seem to extend any of this to others. It's not my job to try to figure out why most trans, and many GLB seem to be the most intolerant people I ever deal with. I specifically avoid 'transgender centers' and support groups for this very reason. The only person in my neighborhood that has been publicly abusive to me is a gay woman.
I know I'm a woman. I am treated as one and never have ANY weirdness in my life, but according to some of the people here "You're just lucky" "You are a parody of a woman" "You might think you are passing but you aren't". They have NO IDEA what my life is like but their goal seems to be: drag other people down with all their negativity. To see if they can plant a seed of insecurity. This is what I see in every "support group" I have interacted in. Not a very positive experience.
I really just don't get why unless their life sucks, they hate themselves and need to try to make other people miserable too? It's simply pathetic.
Perhaps you have a habit of taking any opinion different to your own as a personal attack on your opinion. When really it is just an opinion given as another viewpoint in contrast to yours.
I have had conflicts in threads with you before, but by and large in this we somewhat agree. The transgender community is toxic.
I believe it's because there's no central goal or belief that the majority of its members share.
Quote from: Stephe on January 31, 2012, 10:56:19 PMI really just don't get why unless their life sucks, they hate themselves and need to try to make other people miserable too? It's simply pathetic.
lol Agreed! I call it the "adopted pro-RadFem in-agreement alignment" but that's just me.
Just got
OUTED by another alleged "trans-friend" and BANNED from "Trueselves", after 4 years(?), solely on account of my
AGE ? It wouldn't have anything to do with these "parodies of women" trying too hard to fit in with the stereotype of "helpless and in need of support" only and, lacking any impulse toward self-criticism or tolerance of "True Selves-introspection" at all, these "non-men turned girls" just can't handle any sort of out of own-'lil-world ordinary "discussion or life conflict" at all ?
She who live in unequal glass-house think STONES can be COMPLETELY wished, shouted, ignored and/or banished / LEGISLATED away ?
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on February 17, 2012, 10:41:23 AM
Perhaps you have a habit of taking any opinion different to your own as a personal attack on your opinion. When really it is just an opinion given as another viewpoint in contrast to yours.
I believe it's because there's no central goal or belief that the majority of its members share.
It probably really has a lot more to do with the fact that in an on-line forum it is impossible to hear the tone and tenor of a comment made by another individual, also there is no visual body language, so it is really quite easy to take someones comments completely out of context. The differences in opinion coupled with the impacts of HRT may all come into play, so it behooves us all to consider the possibility that the other person may have had an entirely different thought in mind over that what the respondent might have been thinking, so we need to take a deep breath and not get our panties in a wad over something that wasn't intended to be there in the first place.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on February 17, 2012, 10:41:23 AM
Perhaps you have a habit of taking any opinion different to your own as a personal attack on your opinion. When really it is just an opinion given as another viewpoint in contrast to yours.
I have had conflicts in threads with you before, but by and large in this we somewhat agree. The transgender community is toxic.
Hmm so why single me out when others also posed seeing this same thing? (unless you mean someone else with the "you?) Oh that's right I have this bad habit of me making this personal.... :P
And sorry I don't agree the whole trans community is toxic. Just that there seem to be more than a few people who are full of negativity spreading -that- toxicity.
Nothing like a little Trans on Trans violence to keep things lively. :)
Quote from: Shantel on February 17, 2012, 11:26:55 AM
It probably really has a lot more to do with the fact that in an on-line forum it is impossible to hear the tone and tenor of a comment made by another individual,
I've seen this same hostility in my real world experiences. I've received the majority of abusive behavior in RL from other GLBT people.
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent, not even another ->-bleeped-<-." Eleanor Roosevelt (American United Nations Diplomat, Humanitarian and First Lady (1933-45)
I've gotten more acceptance irl from hetero people than LG people. I don't think I want to pick apart why right now.
Stephe, people are mean. Like, all people. Even if you aren't now, you were at some point in your life and will be again. Some people just don't care to regulate themselves very well on this front.
Someone once told me that when a child cries out to their parents it is because they feel safe to do so. A child sitting in a school all day learns to keep those feelings in check. But once they come home where it is safe they act out. I would think that has a lot to do with it.
I was accused of coming here to try to help you all in one thread. And I thought it was funny that the poster didn't get that I came here because I feel safe and wanted friends. I think that also Stephe Axelle and Kelly-au and me are a bit older than others on this site. So some of the things we've learned in life is that we shouldn't care so much what others think.
When younger people are still struggling with that it is easy to dismiss us as "lucky" or "unrealistic" or whatnot.
I really admire everyone here and I do come here because I feel safe to be myself. Unlike other places I've gone.
Quote from: Felix on February 17, 2012, 10:30:12 PM
I've gotten more acceptance irl from hetero people than LG people. I don't think I want to pick apart why right now.
Yeah, it's weird. I've met lots of supportive LG people too, but straight people seem to just take it at face value. I don't know if it's that they just don't care to voice their opinion or what, but yeah.
Quote from: Caseyyy on February 18, 2012, 02:47:20 AM
Yeah, it's weird. I've met lots of supportive LG people too, but straight people seem to just take it at face value. I don't know if it's that they just don't care to voice their opinion or what, but yeah.
I think it is a sort of friendly ignorance. A lot of people know for sure that there are marginalized people who are simply different and not bad, and they don't have a lot of opinions about nuances because they really aren't aware of the divisions between us.
Are we so mean to eachother?
I think it's not that bad at Susan's, yes, there are arguements sometimes, but that's everywhere where people interact eachother.
Take me for example, I'm a really nice girl, trying to be helpfull and polite, problem is, the world don't understand me, but mean....hell no. :D
just kidding, I see a lot of people writing here with good intentions, more supporting to eachother than mean.
Sometimes, I must admit, when people are reacting with some knowledge they don't have, f.e. how post life is answered by pre ops who seems to know all about it because they googled, I have feelings of annoying, sometimes I reply with humor, sometimes I don't reply at all, because they know it better, sure, dream on.
Most of the time I find compassioned and supporting people around here, that's what is make me come back to this place.
Arguements you can have everywhere, friends are harder to find.
Quote from: annette on February 18, 2012, 05:24:12 AM
Are we so mean to eachother?
I think it's not that bad at Susan's, yes, there are arguements sometimes, but that's everywhere where people interact eachother.
Take me for example, I'm a really nice girl, trying to be helpfull and polite, problem is, the world don't understand me, but mean....hell no. :D
just kidding, I see a lot of people writing here with good intentions, more supporting to eachother than mean.
Sometimes, I must admit, when people are reacting with some knowledge they don't have, f.e. how post life is answered by pre ops who seems to know all about it because they googled, I have feelings of annoying, sometimes I reply with humor, sometimes I don't reply at all, because they know it better, sure, dream on.
Most of the time I find compassioned and supporting people around here, that's what is make me come back to this place.
Arguements you can have everywhere, friends are harder to find.
Google is my friend. :)
Quote from: tekla on February 01, 2012, 11:46:22 PM
So let us not talk falsely now,
the hour is getting late.
There's to much confusion, I can't get no relief.
I was struck watching the funeral for Whitney just how different funerals can be. In the Catholic Church I grew up in they were very dark. Everyone - including the priest - wore black. The music was all low pitched, minor key, soft. If people cried, they did so in that low mournful sobbing way. Contrast that with the gold casket, the choir in white, the choir singing and swaying with the rocking beat that was rocking from a time before even rock rocked. It was at times ecstatically joyful. It was full of praise. Pretty much 180 degree difference. But I don't think that one style of funeral or the other means that the people were any more or less sad. There is not more or less dignity or respect one way or the other. It's just a different cultural presentation.
When the more traditional Chinese brides in San Francisco get their wedding dresses - every bit as sleek, fru-fru and all that as any European Style (actually Queen Victoria specifically) wedding dress - but they get them in red, and I mean fire engine red, and not white, that's not because they are not as pure as their Euro counterparts. It's just that in their culture white is the color of death, not life. But red is the color of Joy+Luck, and that's the color that brides need. A color that brings Joy and Luck. Cause marriage takes a lot of both of them things.
One persons mean is often another persons plain speaking. One persons cruel thing to say is another person thing that's so obvious that it has to be mentioned. And so it goes. With so many different styles, cultural backgrounds, cultures, upbringings and educations it going to be a frequent occurrence that someone takes something wrong when perhaps it was not meant that way.
And its the internet. Take everything with a pillar of salt.
Tekla,
What a wonderful observation, I think you pegged it right on!
"I try to celebrate the similarities we all have and find common ground, not find things that separate."
I just wanted to repeat this because it is exactly what I try to do too. I have had the pleasure of getting to know a lot of people in chat, everyone with their own different experiences and backgrounds, and I always find it wonderful to chat with someone with such a different experience of gender as mine and have those "me too! me too!" moments. And I have so much empathy for anyone who has had to deal with dysphoria, whatever the identification or life circumstances.
There's just to many people under this tiny little umbrella and it's looken like someone is going to have to get wet if we're going to get along. Oh wait maybe that's the problem the umbrella is to small and people are getting wet therefore there is a touch of irritation. We need a bigger umbrella!
Gretchen's too small umbrella is a good one, so is your avatar! :-)
It's raining right now over here, and I can just see it in my mind's eye. The jostle going on underneath it.
Hey... like I was here first, it's MY umbrella, much more then yours at that, etc. And the ones that get at least half-wet - and then some getting pushed out in the rain all together... ("'cause you have the wrong attitude – bitch!" :-)
Wet folks = grumpy folks...
Life? Yes, get a rain coat, just in case :-)
Axélle
Or try to develop an attitude which can withstand the rain ;)