(mtf)
1. Is it someone born male who is fully a girl in her head but don't want to operate just cos of circumstancial factors as family, reputation, work etc... so she lives her daily life like a man but is a girl in her head confirmedly?
2. Is it someone born male, wants to become and live like a woman but cannot operate due to medical factors as age, illness?
3. Is it someone born male and transitions upto a certain limits, like does all FFS, boob implants but REFUSES to complete SRS INTENTIONALLY cos she is happy keeping her male genitals and in slang is what they call >-bleeped-</Ladyboy(no offense to anyone)
4. Is it someone born male who CANNOT transition whatsever cos she just lacks money to throughout her entire life?
Someone please CLARIFY, still I don't get this term, neither do I understand what is ANDROGYNE. For me is someone who appears dual. Please explain both, thanks.
No need for exact definition, imho. The more exact, the more exclusive it becomes.
To me, a non-op TS is a TS who has chosen to not have The Surgery for whatever reason, or who is medically advised to not have it.
"Androgyne", to me, is someone who wants/needs to appear as neither/both genders, but does not wish any body modifications thru HRT or surgery.
(I could be wrong though...I'm not a source of gospel)
:)
Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 14, 2012, 12:01:32 PM
No need for exact definition, imho. The more exact, the more exclusive it becomes.
To me, a non-op TS is a TS who has chosen to not have The Surgery for whatever reason, or who is medically advised to not have it.
"Androgyne", to me, is someone who wants/needs to appear as neither/both genders, but does not wish any body modifications thru HRT or surgery.
(I could be wrong though...I'm not a source of gospel)
:)
Good description. :)
Although I have to point out that many Androgynes may indeed wish to modify their bodies, too.
Either to a more "neutral" state, or, as a member just the other day here on Susan's had done, that had had a full bodily transition including SRS, but yet identified as Androgyne and lived as such.
Androgynes can vary a lot. The one unifying factor seems to be that androgynes do not identify as male or female, but somewhere in between. They can live as their assigned-at-birth gender without modifying their body or appearance. They can transition fully to the opposite sex and live as the sex opposite to the one they were assigned at birth. Or they can transition to somewhere in the middle. That's what I'm doing. ;D For androgynes, it really just comes down to an internal sense of identity.
I am genetically male but at one time got this bug in my head that I would rather become female. Went on female hormones, got my upper eyelids done, a neck lift, orchiectomy (surgical castration), wore my hair long, got my ears pierced, had a pre-SRS consultation with Dr. Marcie Bowers and suddenly one day went WTF???
Got rid of the diamond stud earrings, got a buzz haircut and came to the final resting place where I'm happy where I am right in the middle. I can present well either way I wish at any time, but prefer just being me as I am right now. That's androgynous (a gender ambiguous human being.) A post-op transsexual is one who has had sexual reassignment surgery (SRS), or more appropriately described as gender reassignment surgery (GRS).
Most accurate I can think of is someone who lives (or would like to live) as the gender opposite their birth sex but doesn't feel the need for GRS as part of this.
I'm no-op without choice.
For me, I see the term non- as a qualifier, like American transsexual, working transsexual or drunk transsexual.
If I may, I prefer the term transgender. My sex is no-one's business. Though I appreciate that is a can of worms.
Also, either term would need to be justified with context. I am me. A human. If some aspect of my life needs to be highlighted then so be it.
in my opinion a NON-OP transsexual is a transsexual who transitions, but doesnt undergo GRS. you dont have to get surgery to be trans.
Quote from: Stephe on February 19, 2012, 12:30:29 AM
Most accurate I can think of is someone who lives (or would like to live) as the gender opposite their birth sex but doesn't feel the need for GRS as part of this.
Hmmm, yes that describes my situation and I would certainly guess that is the most common explanation. I would even hazard to guess that in this day and age non-ops make up at least as large a percentage of the transsexual population as do the alternative, but for some (obvious?) reason are much less inclined to be vocal.
1, 2, 4. def not 3.
I'm not big into labels either. They take away the details that make us all unique. On a very general level, if I want to give someone the "quick and dirty" description of myself, I would say that I'm a non-op transgirl. To get more specific, I've had an orchiectomy, but I have no problem keeping my penis, and I'm concerned about the cost of GRS, the small amount of help it would give me in being accepted by society at large as a woman, and the complications that my body tends to have post-surgery.
Quote from: Cadence Jean on March 14, 2012, 09:19:09 PM
I'm not big into labels either. They take away the details that make us all unique. On a very general level, if I want to give someone the "quick and dirty" description of myself, I would say that I'm a non-op transgirl. To get more specific, I've had an orchiectomy, but I have no problem keeping my penis, and I'm concerned about the cost of GRS, the small amount of help it would give me in being accepted by society at large as a woman, and the complications that my body tends to have post-surgery.
Count me with you on this one girlfriend!
Quote from: Sad Girl on February 14, 2012, 11:55:46 AM
(mtf)
1. Is it someone born male who is fully a girl in her head but don't want to operate just cos of circumstancial factors as family, reputation, work etc... so she lives her daily life like a man but is a girl in her head confirmedly?
2. Is it someone born male, wants to become and live like a woman but cannot operate due to medical factors as age, illness?
3. Is it someone born male and transitions upto a certain limits, like does all FFS, boob implants but REFUSES to complete SRS INTENTIONALLY cos she is happy keeping her male genitals and in slang is what they call >-bleeped-</Ladyboy(no offense to anyone)
4. Is it someone born male who CANNOT transition whatsever cos she just lacks money to throughout her entire life?
Someone please CLARIFY, still I don't get this term, neither do I understand what is ANDROGYNE. For me is someone who appears dual. Please explain both, thanks.
ALL OF THE ABOVE :D
I am personally against surgery. It's just not for me. Unless they can magic me a real working penis - I'm not interested. I'm seeking other means to make myself male enough to be happy.
Non-OP is just as it is. Everyone will have a different story.
To clarify my own situation since people have been curious and asked in PM's. I was born male but wished to live as a composite man/woman and will not submit to SRS partially due to age and marital status and because it would be to no avail and cost more than I'd wish to waste on something no man will ever see. I transitioned to a certain point with HRT, FFS, Electrolysis, developed boobs but have settled for an orchiectomy rather than SRS and am living out my remaining years as an androgynous person. Different strokes for different folks, this is what floats my boat!
This makes me think about my situation. I'm currently presenting in my birth sex because there are no resources around me and I am still dependant on my mom who wouldn't approve but I do plan on doing it one day. I just don't know when. Would that classify me as non-op for the time being? Or would that still be pre-op? Or maybe just a wishful-op?
Quote from: Malachite on April 04, 2012, 03:27:59 PM
This makes me think about my situation. I'm currently presenting in my birth sex because there are no resources around me and I am still dependant on my mom who wouldn't approve but I do plan on doing it one day. I just don't know when. Would that classify me as non-op for the time being? Or would that still be pre-op? Or maybe just a wishful-op?
I would put you in the pre-transition stage. If you want the full surgery, then you'd be pre-op, even if it was a long time before you could afford it. Non op would be definitely not getting it or not wanting it for whatever reason be it medical or choice. So you would go in the pre-transition, pre-operative ftm transexual box. Don't worry, I made air holes in it for you.
Quote from: Jaime on April 04, 2012, 03:37:12 PM
I would put you in the pre-transition stage. If you want the full surgery, then you'd be pre-op, even if it was a long time before you could afford it. Non op would be definitely not getting it or not wanting it for whatever reason be it medical or choice. So you would go in the pre-transition, pre-operative ftm transexual box. Don't worry, I made air holes in it for you.
I thought that may have been the case for me. Btw those air holes are too small. o.o
All of those things listed could be considered non-op. A non-op transwoman is any transwoman who doesn't get SRS. When it comes to transguys, the definition of 'non-op' becomes way more complicated-only a minority of transguys end up getting bottom surgery, because both meta and phallo are s**t options right now. I would define a non-op transguy as one who doesn't get top OR bottom surgery, or any other surgeries that transguys sometimes get (I've heard of facial masculinization surgery and 'mansculpting' lipo, but those are really rare because T usually works well enough).
I'd go with Stealthy's definition, as the surgical options for the blokes are still very limited, unfortunately.
I have debated surgery for a while now, and will almost certainly try to have SRS within the next 12 months, but if I cannot proceed for some reason beyond my control, would be able to live without it. It is just one of several options.
Karen.
As far as I am concerned, simply a transsexual who doesn't wish to undergo surgery as part of transition.
Quote from: Stealthy on April 11, 2012, 05:21:16 AM
...only a minority of transguys end up getting bottom surgery, because both meta and phallo are s**t options right now. ...
And this, folks, is precisely the kind of talk that keeps men who have had lower surgery reticent to disclose that or to share pics with other FTMs. Stealthy, if you want to use I-statements, fine. Just remember that you're talking about the bodies of men who are also on these boards.
The fact is, in countries where there is nationalized health care, the standard is for guys to have lower surgery. That's backed up by Jamison Green's study from a few years back that linked fewer SRS procedures in the US to the fact that we almost always have to pay out of pocket.
Not because someone's genitals are "sh-t options."
While it's a complicated topic, and a bit OT, studies as well as conversation among men in private lists and conference spaces give a very different story. Most guys who have had lower surgeries find their procedures be very satisfying, and would do them again even when there have been complications. And nearly all of the TS men I've heard, read, or known personally have been shamed or ridiculed by other people in the trans communities.
Now back to your regularly-scheduled definitions discussion.
Debating who is and who isn't, on the basis of their genitalia all sounds like the transphobic attitudes of some cis-lesbians in other forums I have looked at.
It is a personal preference, and no one has the right to tell a woman what she may or may not do with her body. For me that is the ultimate feminist position statement. Or to put it another way, it is gatekeeping within our own community.
Lets all give each other a pat on the back for surviving to the point where we can transition, and leave it at that.
Karen.
Quote from: justmeinoz on August 06, 2012, 12:08:32 AM
It is a personal preference, and no one has the right to tell a woman what she may or may not do with her body.
Lets all give each other a pat on the back for surviving to the point where we can transition, and leave it at that.
Ditto. Now only if govt. would listen...
Well said justme, but my thoughts are non op is a person that doesn't want GRS for her own reasons,
But classes herself fully transition female, cause she has had a orchy or may not want lower surgery at all and lives each day as it comes being female not what the world says she should be,
Maybe we are the next step in evolution and one day being cis will be looked upon as being strange or tabu..
The surgeon I planned to see, hasn't unfortunately got any surgery dates open before Uni starts next February, and as I don't wish to see anyone else or fly long distances, I will have to wait until November next year.
I have spoken to a couple of counsellors I know well, and have decided that I will consciously treat the next 18 months as living Non-Op, and keep a journal of my feelings and experiences.
Until now it was not something I had really considered, but it will be interesting to see how I feel in a year or so. I have always rejected the biologically essentialist argument of those who oppose us, so in a way I am turning the idea that I am not defined by my genitals inside out and coming to the same point.
In a way it will be political and a case of showing solidarity with several friends who are Intersex too.
Karen.
Quote from: MrTesto on August 05, 2012, 07:32:40 PM
And this, folks, is precisely the kind of talk that keeps men who have had lower surgery reticent to disclose that or to share pics with other FTMs. Stealthy, if you want to use I-statements, fine. Just remember that you're talking about the bodies of men who are also on these boards.
The fact is, in countries where there is nationalized health care, the standard is for guys to have lower surgery. That's backed up by Jamison Green's study from a few years back that linked fewer SRS procedures in the US to the fact that we almost always have to pay out of pocket. Not because someone's genitals are "sh-t options."
While it's a complicated topic, and a bit OT, studies as well as conversation among men in private lists and conference spaces give a very different story. Most guys who have had lower surgeries find their procedures be very satisfying, and would do them again even when there have been complications. And nearly all of the TS men I've heard, read, or known personally have been shamed or ridiculed by other people in the trans communities.
Now back to your regularly-scheduled definitions discussion.
I made that post several months ago, back when all I knew about bottom surgery was the trans party line (somewhat negative). I actually have bottom surgery in my transition plans right now.
On the Androgyne question, I'm one of those folks Bishounen referred to. To me, 'sex' and gender are intertwined but separate. It's been clear to me from the start that I'm supposed to have a female body, and that's been at the root of my dysphoria. That's what's been missing, and so surgery has always been the number one thing I wanted.
But from the gender identity point of view, I'm way more androgyne than just 'woman' - I'm not having surgery in order to stop being genderqueer :). I'm not 'fully androgyne' in the sense that I think of myself as both/neither - which is why I refer to myself sometimes as womandrogyne. But androgyne covers a pretty broad spectrum, I think, and I'm somewhere in there.
I really dislike the term 'transsexual', but it looks like we're stuck with it as distinguishing people for whom addressing their gender dysphoria involves making some changes to their body. So to me, that includes anyone who does hormones (and/or FFS), whether or not any surgery is involved. But I know many people out there reserve TS as a label for people who have, or want/plan to have, some kind of surgery to change their primary sexual characteristics (boobs, genitalia).
This is why labels cause controversy - because different people always mean different things by them.
Quote from: Sad Girl on February 14, 2012, 11:55:46 AM
(mtf)
1. Is it someone born male who is fully a girl in her head but don't want to operate just cos of circumstancial factors as family, reputation, work etc... so she lives her daily life like a man but is a girl in her head confirmedly?
2. Is it someone born male, wants to become and live like a woman but cannot operate due to medical factors as age, illness?
3. Is it someone born male and transitions upto a certain limits, like does all FFS, boob implants but REFUSES to complete SRS INTENTIONALLY cos she is happy keeping her male genitals and in slang is what they call >-bleeped-</Ladyboy(no offense to anyone)
4. Is it someone born male who CANNOT transition whatsever cos she just lacks money to throughout her entire life?
Someone please CLARIFY, still I don't get this term, neither do I understand what is ANDROGYNE. For me is someone who appears dual. Please explain both, thanks.
to me,
1 = non transitioning, not non-op
2,3 = non-op
4 = pre-op
Quote from: Stealthy on April 11, 2012, 05:21:16 AM
All of those things listed could be considered non-op. A non-op transwoman is any transwoman who doesn't get SRS. When it comes to transguys, the definition of 'non-op' becomes way more complicated-[...]
Personally, I have never considered myself non-op, as I am waiting to get my top surgery and complete hysterectomy done. I will
not be getting bottom surgery however. The two surgeries I mentioned are the only ones considered "standard" and necessary to get the gender marker changed where I live, additional bottom surgery is not necessary for that. It will be covered by health care for those who choose to have it, though.
Quote from: DianaP on August 05, 2012, 05:30:31 PM
As far as I am concerned, simply a transsexual who doesn't wish to undergo surgery as part of transition.
this is what i was going to say.
Quote from: Sad Girl on February 14, 2012, 11:55:46 AM
(mtf)
1. Is it someone born male who is fully a girl in her head but don't want to operate just cos of circumstancial factors as family, reputation, work etc... so she lives her daily life like a man but is a girl in her head confirmedly?
2. Is it someone born male, wants to become and live like a woman but cannot operate due to medical factors as age, illness?
3. Is it someone born male and transitions upto a certain limits, like does all FFS, boob implants but REFUSES to complete SRS INTENTIONALLY cos she is happy keeping her male genitals and in slang is what they call >-bleeped-</Ladyboy(no offense to anyone)
4. Is it someone born male who CANNOT transition whatsever cos she just lacks money to throughout her entire life?
Someone please CLARIFY, still I don't get this term, neither do I understand what is ANDROGYNE. For me is someone who appears dual. Please explain both, thanks.
Shouldn't #3 technically be eliminated, since both are ops? Doesn't seem to qualify as non-op criteria.