Question.
Am I legally allowed in the womens bathroom even if I don't pass? What if I'm presenting male?
I have doctor prescribed hormones. I live in Minnesota, USA.
Quote from: Heartwood (Alex) on March 03, 2012, 02:18:02 PM
Question.
Am I legally allowed in the womens bathroom even if I don't pass? What if I'm presenting male?
I have doctor prescribed hormones. I live in Minnesota, USA.
No, and the women might want you arrested. On the other hand, I've seen all kinds of women use the men's restrooms especially where there are big crowds like at dance places and sports events. They get tired of almost wetting their pants waiting to get a stall in a crowded women's room. Most men don't pay them any attention when they come into the men's room because they use a stall anyway. Besides unlike women, most men don't even acknowledge one another in a men's room because of some innate fear of being thought of as queer. So what would be your motive for wanting to use a women's restroom if you don't pass or present in male mode?
I'm just curious how the law works.
So a transwoman who's been on hormones for years and is presenting as female but still doesn't quite pass has to use the mens, hmm?
If there's not a unisex bathroom, then I use the women's.
I just go in there, do my business, wash my hands, check my face and clean up anything if I'm wearing makeup and it smudged, and I'm out the door :P.
Don't make the mistake of looking at anyone and doing that bull->-bleeped-<- "Oh women are SUPPOSED to smile and be friendly!".
lol just take a piss or a ->-bleeped-<- and thats it.
Quote from: Heartwood (Alex) on March 03, 2012, 03:02:32 PM
I'm just curious how the law works.
So a transwoman who's been on hormones for years and is presenting as female but still doesn't quite pass has to use the mens, hmm?
Uh- That wasn't the context of your original question Alex. It was about someone presenting as a male. A transwomen who has been on HRT for years usually dresses enfemme or at least to a passable level and though she may not quite pass is a moot point because there are a lot of genetic females that don't quite pass and raise people's eyebrows too. If you walk in a women's restroom looking really male and dressed as a male you may be asking to go to jail.
You need to check the laws of your state and city. If the state doesn't have a law, your city might.
What matters, at least ethically, is that you're presenting as female, passing isn't required: if you're presenting as male, you can't use the female bathroom.
At least in Canada, there's widespread recognition by our human rights councils that people are allowed to use the bathroom for the gender that they're presenting as. But, of course, this doesn't stop people flipping out or discrimination. This is one reason why I'm part of a campaign (with faculty members on the equity committee) to have signs put up in every bathroom stating that policy position. This way, if someone makes a fuss, the TG (or regular) person can just point at the sign and say, "Take it up with the University." These sorts of signs should be in EVERY bathroom, and if this gets instituted here, I hope that I can advocate for its wider adoption within the community.
Quote from: Shantel on March 03, 2012, 03:11:51 PM
Uh- That wasn't the context of your original question Alex. It was about someone presenting as a male. A transwomen who has been on HRT for years usually dresses enfemme or at least to a passable level and though she may not quite pass is a moot point because there are a lot of genetic females that don't quite pass and raise people's eyebrows too. If you walk in a women's restroom looking really male and dressed as a male you may be asking to go to jail.
QuoteAm I legally allowed in the womens bathroom even if I don't pass?
I have doctor prescribed hormones.
Yeah it was. Presenting male was a separate question.
You should use the bathroom that corresponds with the gender you are presenting. Why would you present male and then go into the women's room? That doesn't make sense to me.
I don't think you can be excluded from the restroom from not "passing". Minnesota's laws are pretty tg-friendly. But, as a transperson myself, I would want one of my trans-brothers and -sisters to at least put forth a little effort to present as the gender you identify with, regardless if you "pass" or not, as a common courtesy to other trans.
Now, if you are a gender-blurring person who doesn't think gender really describes your situation, I think the law would be on your side to choose whichever one you think is appropriate. This is solely my interpretation of the law, I don't know exactly what your situation is.
But like the last poster said, use the one that is the gender you are presenting as. If you take hormones, that's great, but if you are wearing a man's suit with a full beard, for crying out loud use the men's room.
As one from Mn, I use the restroom that is according to how I am presenting and have had no problems. I do try to use the unisex restrooms where possible just in case. I don't pass very well though I have been on HRT for 20 months now.
On another note about restrooms. Your employer can determine which facility they want you to use. In my case I was told that when I come out at work that I would still have to use the mens room for dressing, showering and toiletries. this was confirmed by the Outfront org. lawyer via e mail. I am hoping that there might be a change or a loophole that can overide this.
I thought it depended on what your legal sex was?
Quote from: Deidre Erin on March 04, 2012, 03:58:51 PM
As one from Mn, I use the restroom that is according to how I am presenting and have had no problems. I do try to use the unisex restrooms where possible just in case. I don't pass very well though I have been on HRT for 20 months now.
I am hoping that there might be a change or a loophole that can overide this.
I'm not picking you, and this isn't meant to be personal, but as a long time MtF person who has been on HRT for a good sixteen years I really do not understand the motives as to why anyone who does not pass well would seek to ingratiate themselves on others by insisting on using the women's room. When I'm out running around in jeans and T shirt I still use the men's room rather than make a few genetic females uncomfortable, and I'm 5' 7" and sport a trim and fit figure. Born women can read trans-women regardless of how good their outcome is, whereas most genetic males don't have a clue. The women wouldn't comment if you're really good, but if you're not, watch out because you're asking for it!
Quote from: Shantel on March 04, 2012, 05:23:06 PM
I'm not picking you, and this isn't meant to be personal, but as a long time MtF person who has been on HRT for a good sixteen years I really do not understand the motives as to why anyone who does not pass well would seek to ingratiate themselves on others by insisting on using the women's room. When I'm out running around in jeans and T shirt I still use the men's room rather than make a few genetic females uncomfortable, and I'm 5' 7" and sport a trim and fit figure. Born women can read trans-women regardless of how good their outcome is, whereas most genetic males don't have a clue. The women wouldn't comment if you're really good, but if you're not, watch out because you're asking for it!
Seriously? You've been full-time for several years and you still use the men's room on occasion? I haven't set foot in one since day 1 of full-time. Do they still have those urinal mints and the awful smell? Sister, I think it's time to move on, you've graduated or something. And if you are out running errands, I suspect you are using public restrooms with complete strangers who really don't care.
Quote from: Shantel on March 04, 2012, 05:23:06 PM
Born women can read trans-women regardless of how good their outcome is
That's a load of crap.
And the point of transition is to live fully as the gender you are transitioning to. Why are you going to the men's room if you have been on HRT for nearly 2 decades and live as a woman? Doesn't that kind of negate the point of taking hormones and living as a woman for as long as you have?
Bathroom legalities are in flux in most places, and the rules differ by city, state, and country. There can be different rules for private employers, government jobs, and public places like malls and libraries. Enforcement is different from place to place.
Basically it's a huge grey area. Look at local statutes and use your best judgment in case by case situations. Sometimes I err on the extremely safe side, other times I don't care and I'm ready to argue with anyone who challenges my presence in the bathroom.
Quote from: Rabbit on March 04, 2012, 05:07:52 PM
I thought it depended on what your legal sex was?
+1
I was presenting female when I was kicked out of a venue for using the women's bathroom. Apparently, it was because my ID stated male.
I'm not surprised or the least bit upset by the negative responses to my still using the men's room on occasion. I said that when I'm in my jeans and T - shirt I will opt to use the men's room because I know damned good and well that when I'm dressed like that I'm doing some yard work or construction work and I wouldn't pass under any circumstances and so I am being considerate of other women, something I shouldn't have to defend myself about here of all places.
Quote from: Beverley on March 05, 2012, 08:59:02 AM
Shantel,
I think that many people miss seeing that little 'A' in your profile description and assume that you are MTF rather than Androgyne. The whole point of 'A' (as I understand it) is that are neither M or F or can pick and choose. I freely admit I do not understand it but then again lots of people do not understand MTF either. I am not sure I understand MTF myself and I am one!
Oh well... ::)
Beverley
Thanks for being both smart and observant! My photo is ten years old taken before I decided to put SRS on hold indefinitely for the sake of my marriage, my adult children and my granddaughter. I had posted a torso shot earlier to encourage some of the newer MtF's who had just started their HRT to stick with it for awhile and see what results they may get before running out and getting implants. I took it down because I don't want to be known just for having nice boobs and nipples which made a statement through my tank top, and opted for probably my best head shot ever. Since that photo though I have removed my fake diamond earring studs letting the holes grow shut and had my spouse give me a buzz cut like so many lesbian women and GI's wear today. I am a lot older than most here and value and love my family above my own desire to be a fully complete woman, so I opted to remain as an androgynous human being. It took my family years to get used to it and accept what was no longer changeable, so this is where it stands. Perhaps in the next life? Anyway, I would hope that folks here would do a little background homework on those that they feel inclined to denigrate and insult before even going there. It's always so much better to realize that we can come here to Susan's Place and be safe from unwanted assaults by the Alpha Dogs of society. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments Bev!
My rule has always been, use the bathroom least likely to cause a problem.
I got to the point guys would stop me when trying to use the mens "Uh hun you're going into the mens room.." For years that I didn't really consider that I passed great, I have used the womens and no problems. I did always just go pee or whatever, quick hand wash and leave. No mirror primping etc until recently. Even though my voice is much better now etc, I still don't make a production out of being in there. As far as how legal it is? IDK and don't care cause at this point it would cause a riot going into the mens room.
As far as shantels case of being in t shirt and jeans all sweaty from yard work and totally not passable, I wouldn't be out in public like that :P
Sensible response Stephe. ;)
Quote from: Stephe on March 05, 2012, 10:52:29 PM
My rule has always been, use the bathroom least likely to cause a problem.
Good plan Stephe! I always use the bathroom least likely to cause a problem given my circumstances also!
Quote from: Stephe on March 05, 2012, 10:52:29 PM
As far as shantels case of being in t shirt and jeans all sweaty from yard work and totally not passable, I wouldn't be out in public like that :P
I wear them because I own a house and do yard work and am doing a remodeling upgrade, so it's pointless for me to consider going to Home Depot enfemme. Although I could hold my own in an all girl contest, I want to be clear that using a woman's room or a man's room without being clocked doesn't meet my idea of criteria for my personal validation. It used to, but there came a day when I realized that it was much more important to be able to pull it off quietly without disrupting other people's serenity in the process.
Quote from: Shantel on March 06, 2012, 01:45:47 PM
there came a day when I realized that it was much more important to be able to pull it off quietly without disrupting other people's serenity in the process.
Now Shantel that's just crazy talk, next time you need to wee in a public bathroom be sure to bring your gas powered weed eater, or a nail gun. Which ever seems to be appropriate for the location of the bathroom.
Quote from: Gretchen on March 06, 2012, 09:55:33 PM
Now Shantel that's just crazy talk, next time you need to wee in a public bathroom be sure to bring your gas powered weed eater, or a nail gun. Which ever seems to be appropriate for the location of the bathroom.
Will my 25 foot Stanley tape clipped in my belt be sufficient? ;)
Quote from: Heartwood (Alex) on March 03, 2012, 03:02:32 PM
I'm just curious how the law works.
So a transwoman who's been on hormones for years and is presenting as female but still doesn't quite pass has to use the mens, hmm?
There was a case in the U.K press several years ago about three or four transwomen who didn't pass very well but were post op and used the ladies washroom/toilet and the publican took them to court as cis women were complaining that men were in their washroom. The case eventually went to court and the transwomen lost the case!
Here's another more recent case from 2011:
http://www.passportmagazine.com/blog/archives/2679-transgender-woman-banned-for-life-for-using-ladies-room-at-the-cosmopolitan-hotel-in-las-vegas.htm (http://www.passportmagazine.com/blog/archives/2679-transgender-woman-banned-for-life-for-using-ladies-room-at-the-cosmopolitan-hotel-in-las-vegas.htm)
Quote from: Shantel on March 07, 2012, 07:57:25 AM
Will my 25 foot Stanley tape clipped in my belt be sufficient? ;)
Only if it is FatMax, nothing and I mean nothing else will do.
Oh Gretchen, you're good! :laugh: FatMax? I'd have to wear suspenders ;D
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on March 07, 2012, 08:21:09 AM
There was a case in the U.K press several years ago about three or four transwomen who didn't pass very well but were post op and used the ladies washroom/toilet and the publican took them to court as cis women were complaining that men were in their washroom. The case eventually went to court and the transwomen lost the case!
Here's another more recent case from 2011:
http://www.passportmagazine.com/blog/archives/2679-transgender-woman-banned-for-life-for-using-ladies-room-at-the-cosmopolitan-hotel-in-las-vegas.htm (http://www.passportmagazine.com/blog/archives/2679-transgender-woman-banned-for-life-for-using-ladies-room-at-the-cosmopolitan-hotel-in-las-vegas.htm)
I'd like to see a link to the court case. I'm sure the devil's in the details.
As for the Vegas incident, that's different, since there are different protections (or lack thereof) in the US and it's different from state to state and city to city. For example, if this happened in Canada, there'd be a human rights complaint and the plaintiff would win. (There are lots of cases dating back to at least 1996. See Tawni Sheridan v Sanctuary Investments Ltd. doing business as "B.J.'s Lounge." The decision was in 1999 by the BC Human Rights Tribunal in the favour of the plaintiff. It was one of many benchmark cases for BC and Canada.)
Although we're trying to change it, in Canada, TG persons are protected against discrimination under the "or...sex" part of anti-discrimination laws. We're trying to include gender identity and expression as a protected class, but courts have consistently been giving protections under the "or...sex" part of the laws.
Some excerpts:
Both Mr. Winckler and Mr. Stephenson testified that they had received complaints from female patrons of the Respondent about men using the women's washroom. However, the preference of patrons is not a defence to a complaint of discrimination: Hajla v. Nestoras (Welland Plaza Restaurant) (1987), 8 C.H.R.R. D/3879 (Ont. Bd. Inq.) at D/3882.
Based on Dr. Robinow's evidence, I find that transsexuals in transition who are living as members of the desired sex should be considered to be members of that sex for the purposes of human rights legislation. Taking this view, the Complainant, on August 25, 1995, was a woman and, therefore, her choice of the women's washroom was appropriate. The Respondent did not lead any evidence to establish that the use of women's washrooms by a male-to-female transsexual interfered with the "maintenance of public decency".
As transsexuals are protected on the grounds of sex and physical or mental disability, I conclude that the Respondent's washroom policy discriminated against the Complainant on both these grounds, contrary to section 8 of the Code.
Even though women's bath room never caused any problem, I sometimes use men's, especially when I am with my family or close friends. Men tend to be surprised, goint ouot to check again the door sign.
Women's bath room is a kind of protected place for women. They fix their makeup and do other things that they do not want to show to men.
I also once chatted with one of my female friends who sat next to my room in the women's public bathroom. She knew well I am a man, but understood my situation.
Using men's causes so many troubles, then why should not I use women's?
In my country, too many people violate too many minor laws, especially traffic offences. And the police is too busy chasing other serious crimes, and traffic offences or toilet issues can not be any considerable issues for them until somebody brings it to the court, which is way too expensive to initiate as an individual.
Barbie~~