I found this video while perusing youtube for some transgender inspiration:
Transgender Discrimination or Privilege (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0z76RuJUQY&#)
She is a transgender woman who prefers to speak as a man. I have always found that the most disconcerting part of transitioning would be changing my voice. Practicing a girl's voice always felt fake and unnatural. I never realized that you could transition without having to change your voice. Sure, you won't pass, but at least you can be yourself.
To each their own, I guess. I, personally, could have never kept my male voice. That would make me feel fake and unnatural.
I have to agree, there is no way I could have kept my old voice (even though it was never that masculine) and felt good about myself.
My new voice is me. I am totally comforable with it.
But that doesn't mean you can't keep your masculine voice if that is what you want.
My current voice is nice and deep, and it does make me uncomfortable. I used to love it as a male but now i just see it as this huge impossible obstacle to overcome..
This person is inspiring, and surprisingly beautifull even with the voice she uses. If it wasnt for pre-disposed gender norms in our minds im sure we could all agree there is nothing really wrong with her voice and she is a beautifull woman.
I'm one of those girls who had a relatively male voice even when full-time. It's really quite complicated. I did the voice training and was able to go from 120 Hz to 130 to 180 to 200.. but could not really sustain it in real conversation. So I more or less just spoke around 130-140Hz which isn't all that low but still it did not match my body anymore. It bothered me endlessly that people would get this "wtf" look on their voice when I said something but part of me was also starting to feel that tingle of pride in myself - like "yeah, i'm trans, deal with it".
I've now had a cricothyropexy with an amazing result and speak at like 250Hz naturally with no effort (supposed to drop to 230 or so as it heals further) and it's great. Sounds and feels very nice. But part of me does miss that old voice. It was just mine, you know? In the end I had the surgery with the goal of being unclockable and fitting in. Having a pretty girly voice is certainly great but it wasn't quite as big a factor in my decision. So I can understand a bit when someone transitions but clings to their original voice.
By the way being unable to really use your voice for a week or two with no real idea of how it's going to turn out is just murder on your psyche. More than once I broke down thinking I'd just made my first terrible mistake in transition. If I couldve undone the op and gotten my old voice back somehow I'd have taken it. But luckily it got better. xD
She sounds like someone who was given the chance for a long time to build a healthy, strong ego as a 'white, heterosexual male the sky was the limit', which is very, very true.
Right. And it feels so good to be ma'am'd over the phone. I don't even think about it anymore.
I couldn't view the video, but my take is it's no ones business how anyone presents. Hugs, Devlyn
While I am not that concerned with passing 100%, the BEST thing I did was change my voice. As others have stated I got tired of the "jaw drop" reaction when I opened my mouth. The other thing was: even close friends would call me him/sir by accident quite often after we had been talking for a while and I realized my male voice over rode my female appearance. This happened more when a situation like we were in a car, they were driving and just listening to me etc. If you sound male, people will think of you as male no matter how passable you look. When watching that video all I was thinking was "guy" and I should know better.
As far as "being myself", most of learning a female voice is simply relearning how to speak. We learned to talk like a man from listening to men talk because we assumed we had to live as men. Seriously think about it, most of us have the range to talk in the female range but we learned to talk like a guy, use male intonation etc. It's no different than learning how to apply makeup and IMHO a lot less "fake" than taking hormones if you want to try to think of it like that.
Yes getting a female voice is a lot of work and practice, you can't just pop some pills and forget about it as it happens on it's own. And I'm not going to judge anyone who wants to look like a woman but sound like a man but it will ensure they never blend in under any situation and at least for me it severely limited me "being myself" which is a very outgoing person who loves to chat with strangers. I avoided talking to anyone because of the "jaw drop" reaction and then being treated differently/as a man after I did. I want to be treated as a woman and very few people will if you have a total male voice.
OK on the content of the video, the story she told about calling on the phone and talking with a gym owner. Then she is shocked at the gym owners reaction?? This is the problem with having a huge disconnect between your appearance and your voice. Anyone listening to that voice would assume they are male if they can't see them and/or look for the man the voice is coming from. You talk to the drive thru people and then show up at the window and every time they will be like O.o. I'm not ashamed of being trans or wanting to be stealth but I do think there has to be some continuity if you want to be accepted as a woman.
You can also take comfort in the fact that some genetic females also have very deep voices - just changing intonation can do wonders.
An example of a deep female voice I love - Zarah Leander
Ack Värmeland du sköna (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7y4WTKK3ZQ#)
A bunch of people have said it already but to put it simply. You sure can keep your old voice, but you will never pass. So things like using the women's bathroom will be out. You will always get That Look when you talk and it will make most Norm's uncomfortable. But I promise you hun, if you train your voice for a month or so? It will feel perfectly natural, and you will have to concentrate to drop it to boy tone's.
Are you worried that you can't get it high enough? It's not really all about the pitch so much as how you speak. using half guatal stops not full ones. things like that.
Quote from: jdinatale on March 09, 2012, 12:24:57 PM
I found this video while perusing youtube for some transgender inspiration:
Transgender Discrimination or Privilege (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0z76RuJUQY&#)
She is a transgender woman who prefers to speak as a man. I have always found that the most disconcerting part of transitioning would be changing my voice. Practicing a girl's voice always felt fake and unnatural. I never realized that you could transition without having to change your voice. Sure, you won't pass, but at least you can be yourself.
Nice topic!!
You wanna hear something weird. I hate talking with my male voice regularly. Sometimes after the end of the day being in guy mode for work I get so depressed about it. But here is the crazy part is I love to sing in the male voice. Like Offspring, Linkin Park, Manson, NIN, Ashes Divide. I can hit it them so well and it feels so good, but I hate talking regularly in my male voice, it doesn't feel natural to me. lol.
Just thought I would share.
My voice is my voice, and i feel no urge to change it. I don't have a problem with being a deep-voiced woman, I'm pretty Amazonian in physique anyway.
I think I will keep my male voice. I don't feel the need to hide being trans... and changing your voice is pretty much so you can "pass" better.
Though, I am still practicing my "female" voice too (just because i think it is sexier :P and might be handy to pull out when I wana be more "fem").
I couldn't transition and keep my male voice...I just couldn't. I could not go my whole like getting clocked every single time I opened my mouth. I couldn't deal with the fact of being "sir'ed" everytime I am on the phone.
To me, The voice is one of the top two or three when it comes to going stealth.
If stealth doesn't appeal to you, then I assume voice is not necessary but I just could not do that. My whole reason of being is to be female....if society always label me as a transsexual everytime I open my mouth, that would be a hard life to live.
Quote from: jdinatale on March 09, 2012, 12:24:57 PM
. I never realized that you could transition without having to change your voice. Sure, you won't pass, but at least you can be yourself.
I have a very feminine voice and I am myself. Matter of fact, I wasn't myself when I had the masculine voice.
It's fascinating to me just how diverse people's needs and desires are in transitioning. It's very easy to assume we're all the same, or at least very similar, but you only have to ask questions like this one to discover how diverse we actually are.
For me, transition is simply about a need for a female body. The person I have always been is the person I am going to be - except that I'm no longer trying to "pass" as a man. But it's my anatomy that needs attention, and is getting it. I would rather get misgendered sometimes than feel like I was obliged to put on a particular voice and outfit in order to be female. Of course, I may feel differently 5 years from now - but I may not. And clearly, for some people, changing their voice is a vital and valuable part of their transition experience.
Quote from: Annah on March 10, 2012, 12:11:23 AM
I couldn't transition and keep my male voice...I just couldn't. I could not go my whole like getting clocked every single time I opened my mouth. I couldn't deal with the fact of being "sir'ed" everytime I am on the phone.
To me, The voice is one of the top two or three when it comes to going stealth.
If stealth doesn't appeal to you, then I assume voice is not necessary but I just could not do that. My whole reason of being is to be female....if society always label me as a transsexual everytime I open my mouth, that would be a hard life to live.
I haven't changed my voice at all so far.. I
have changed how I speak.. And either everyone I interact with is polite and sensitive (very doubtful) or I'm not getting clocked.. I do still very occasionally get 'sir' on the phone, but no way near as often as you might think.. I'm spending a lot of time on the phone at the moment, last week I think it happened once, maybe twice.. I will admit that I don't have a terribly deep voice, it's fairly high for a guy's voice..
As for stealth, it's essentially a fiction we create, I do work that requires background checks - and these will out you every time, just depends on whether to person who reads the background check says anything..
Quote from: Padma on March 10, 2012, 12:27:21 AM
It's fascinating to me just how diverse people's needs and desires are in transitioning. It's very easy to assume we're all the same, or at least very similar, but you only have to ask questions like this one to discover how diverse we actually are.
For me, transition is simply about a need for a female body. The person I have always been is the person I am going to be - except that I'm no longer trying to "pass" as a man. But it's my anatomy that needs attention, and is getting it. I would rather get misgendered sometimes than feel like I was obliged to put on a particular voice and outfit in order to be female. Of course, I may feel differently 5 years from now - but I may not. And clearly, for some people, changing their voice is a vital and valuable part of their transition experience.
Interesting. I use that same line: "for me, transition is simply about the need for a female body." But I consider voice to be part of my physicality rather than part of my presentation - i.e. my voice is part of my body. My position, when walking into the office of a voice therapist for the first time, was "testosterone broke it, now it's time to fix it."
Of course I discovered that my voice was closer to female than male to start with, and ended up shifting it only very slightly (the main thing I did was improve my projection so I don't sound like scared mouse). I also kept a fairly low female voice at 175Hz median (only 25Hz higher than what I started with), even though I can speak as high as 245Hz without difficulty (I dunno why, but my voice didn't really do the dropping thing in puberty apparently). My voice therapist tried to convince me to compromise on 190Hz, but I declined. So I guess I have mixed feelings. I didn't so much want a "feminine voice"; I just wanted to make my voice FIT me. The same way I want the rest of my body to FIT me.
So even though I am rather unfeminine with my men's clothes and andro haircut and whatnot, I do sport a definitively female, if low, voice. On the other hand it pisses me off to no end when people suggest I change how I talk (my vocabulary, etc.). It IS fascinating how diverse we are. If we were all the same we'd be boring, nah? ;)
I just like my voice, is all - it feels like it's part of my strength as a woman. I may play around with the intonation sometimes, but not with the basic pitch of it (as a singer, I have a quite broad range anyway).
People keep asking me "are you planning to change your voice?", and it's a useful question to be asked, because every time it gets asked, I can feel the answer in my guts is "why would I?" - even though I always check to see if the answer has changed - because in transition, other things have been known to change :).
Quote from: Padma on March 10, 2012, 01:02:31 AM
I just like my voice, is all - it feels like it's part of my strength as a woman. I my play around with the intonation sometimes, but not with the basic pitch of it (as a singer, I have a quite broad range anyway).
Well that's definitely the difference then. I was really uncomfortable with my voice before; I felt like it wasn't me, like I was suppressed. I'm a lot more confident and comfortable speaking how I do now. And I changed my voice permanently before I even went full time with total disregard for any consequences, just 'cause it made me feel better.
Makes no sense to change if you are already happy with it. :)
Go, us! :D Unity and diversity!
I'm far from "being stealth" but I just feel having a definitely male voice is disturbing to other people and it has a profound effect on how they perceive me. I know it does because I was full time with a male voice and then changed it, HUGE difference in how I have been accepted. I want to be seen/treated as a woman and I think a lot of people, including me have a hard time -thinking- women listening to a male voice.
The other issue is dealing with the bathroom game. If you have a totally guys voice, what will you do if some woman asks you something in there? Ignore them? Out yourself and have to deal with that? Sorry but I'm not going to use the mens room looking like a woman because of my voice. And for most of us, we don't pass 100% enough to get away with a guys voice like these born female examples, which BTW if I close my eyes all I hear is a guy.
I understand there is "diversity" and respect this but I think this is more important than HRT as far as being seen/accepted as a woman by society. It's as big a gender clue as a beard shadow. Unless you don't talk, a lot of people will see you as a guy as soon as you open your mouth. If your goal isn't centered around society accepting you as a woman but only that you want a female body, then this probably isn't important.
Of course, that depends to some extent on what kind of women you associate with. So far, I'm finding my women friends, and local women in general, pretty broad-minded and accepting, and not demanding of special appearance or voice as an entry fee. They just seem happy to accept me choosing to live as a woman as having its own validity. Perhaps the south-west of England is a particularly accepting place to be, I don't know. Now the men, they're a different problem...
Learning to do the voice isn't merely an obstacle in the way of passing. The voice... being able to do it is often a prerequisite to remain sane, or find some cheer. If you can be happy with a male voice, and don't mind not passing, then there is nothing wrong with keeping your male voice.
The consequences of not passing can be fairly severe... but perhaps you are in a community where they are on the lenient side of that.
I personally wont be working on my voice at all. I feel like it naturally is kind of light, but can be really deep too. Doesn't bother me much. But i understand why some girl's do it, i just don't want to train my voice. The sound of ones voice can be optional and alot of it is personality, so I don't see it as fake or as a facade whatsoever when girls retrain it.
watching the video now and loving it.
Quote from: Torn1990 on March 11, 2012, 03:54:32 PM
I personally wont be working on my voice at all. I feel like it naturally is kind of light, but can be really deep tpo. Doesn't bother me much. But i understand why some girl's do it, i just don't want to train my voice. The sound of ones voice can be optional and alot of it is personality, so I don't see it as fake or as a facade whatsoever when girls retrain it.
watching the video now and loving it.
I love your voice.
The voice to me is probably one of the top 3 determinants to people if you're a female. If a masculine-looking spoke in a 100% female voice, people would have a hard time thinking, "Is she a man or a woman?". They would more or less likely think she is a woman, or just a lesbian. Within reason of course...
A masculine voice will ruin even the most feminine genetic women... even if it's slightly masculine.
Quote from: Torn1990 on March 11, 2012, 03:54:32 PM
I personally wont be working on my voice at all. I feel like it naturally is kind of light, but can be really deep too. Doesn't bother me much. But i understand why some girl's do it, i just don't want to train my voice. The sound of ones voice can be optional and alot of it is personality, so I don't see it as fake or as a facade whatsoever when girls retrain it.
watching the video now and loving it.
I had to listen to your voice... and if that makes you happy then that's more power to you.
You're interesting, I watch the video where you're talking about "your 11-yr old self being weird".... funny
Quote from: BrokenCode on March 09, 2012, 07:57:11 PM
Nice topic!!
You wanna hear something weird. I hate talking with my male voice regularly. Sometimes after the end of the day being in guy mode for work I get so depressed about it. But here is the crazy part is I love to sing in the male voice. Like Offspring, Linkin Park, Manson, NIN, Ashes Divide. I can hit it them so well and it feels so good, but I hate talking regularly in my male voice, it doesn't feel natural to me. lol.
Just thought I would share.
hell yes!
Once you train your voice then it actually become your voice. It's not fake anymore as it was when you started. I can understand your concerns though =)
Here's an interesting twist. I've started going androgynous lately, with great shifts towards going back to being male... however, I have no desire to train my voice back to being male... even if I go completely back to being a guy.
Whereas, I once had a great man's voice, I now have a great woman's voice... and to me, the woman's voice suits who I am as a person much better. True, I may never pass as a boy again with a woman's voice, just as the opposite argument was started in several of the responses... but it's the voice that I like and identify with the best. If that's the case with you using your man voice, then that's the voice you should stick with =)
Quote from: VannaSiamese on March 11, 2012, 11:03:12 PM
but it's the voice that I like and identify with the best.
It's interesting, now that I have this new voice, I like what I sound like. I used to CRINGE when I heard my male voice recorded/played back, that's not the case now.
Again I would never judge someone's choice but I can say that "fixing" my voice was one of the last things I did after living full time for years and it has made a huge difference in my ability to live as "just another woman", even though I have no plans or desire to be ultra stealth about my being trans. I only wish I had worked on this first and some of the other parts of transition would likely have gone smoother and I would have been more accepted as a woman earlier on. I believe a lot of my friends slipping up and using the wrong pronouns etc was based on my voice more than anything else. Once I got my voice sorted out, that completely ended. I have to believe even if they were using the correct ones, they were still thinking guy when I had a male voice.
I allways have had sort of a fem vocie and have practiced on my own with a tape recorder girls that don't even try to have a fem vocie or act masculine too much are a major turn off for me in our community
I am partially deaf. It would be more difficult to change my voice at my age as well. I would like to pass, but my money situation now doesn't allow it.
Joelene
To each, her own. I want the fem voice but I would keep up the male voice for just in case circumstances, might find it handy. But being happy is really all that matters, ne? :)
Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on March 12, 2012, 01:50:05 AM
Like cis women, we are more likely to be the target of violence and sexual abuse, but is the statement that we're more likely to be attacked because of not passing not similar to the statement that provocative clothing instigates rape? Are we not giving a bit of a pass on blaming the victim? Is it not more likely that our insecurity would be the thing that predators pick up on?
People might be a little rude, sure, but that's not a thing that should leave us living in fear of not passing.
I never did this out of fear and am -NOT- trying to live stealth. I never felt I was a target for violence and sexual abuse at any point in my transition, any more than a natal woman would be from these predators. My whole goal in transition was to be seen, treated and accepted as a -woman- not as a -born female-. I can honestly say this goal wasn't reached until I changed my voice, even after some FFS, a year on HRT etc. And again in my case it has absolutely nothing to do with the fear of not passing as a born female. I did this to be seen and accepted as a woman, a lot of which are people who know my past.
This made more difference IMHO than HRT did as far as how people act towards me and how I am perceived. I guess that's why I do find it a bit odd reading people who are not going to live full time until they have been on HRT for at least a year, who seem petrified of not passing saying they have no intention of changing their voice at all. I again feel for those people this is mostly lack of motivation for all the work a good voice requires. If their goal is just to have a female body and being seen and accepted as a woman isn't a priority, then sure, this would be a waste of time.
Quote from: Stephe on March 12, 2012, 09:23:10 AM
I never did this out of fear and am -NOT- trying to live stealth. I never felt I was a target for violence and sexual abuse at any point in my transition, any more than a natal woman would be from these predators. My whole goal in transition was to be seen, treated and accepted as a -woman- not as a -born female-. I can honestly say this goal wasn't reached until I changed my voice, even after some FFS, a year on HRT etc. And again in my case it has absolutely nothing to do with the fear of not passing as a born female. I did this to be seen and accepted as a woman, a lot of which are people who know my past.
This made more difference IMHO than HRT did as far as how people act towards me and how I am perceived. I guess that's why I do find it a bit odd reading people who are not going to live full time until they have been on HRT for at least a year, who seem petrified of not passing saying they have no intention of changing their voice at all. I again feel for those people this is mostly lack of motivation for all the work a good voice requires. If their goal is just to have a female body and being seen and accepted as a woman isn't a priority, then sure, this would be a waste of time.
Yup
Voice really is the difference between passing and getting clocked. I havent transitioned but ive been maamed face to face with people, and even hit on by guys. I usually get an apology whenecer i open my mouth. Sometimes i get people that avoid pronouns, andwhen i speak with a female voice, its maam and she from there on out.
Idk how any mtf can be taken seriousy as a female by the cis population that knows nothing about transsexualism when they speak with a gruff man voice. I remember all the guy talk and how a transsexual we knew was made fun of for looking so pretty but spunding so manly. I mean if you dont care about being maamed or being included in the girl world with no social restrictions then keep that voice...
I find it more than a bit creepy how this topic has morphed into a completely new one: "Your take on someone else transitioning but keeping a male voice..."
I was interested to hear different people's reasons for doing one or the other, but I'm really not interested in other people strafing me for my own particular choice.
Well all I can say is, each girl to their own thing. I really do NOT think having a passing female voice is going to help you, if you DON'T look like a natal woman anyway. Both work in tandem, both must be the same. If anything if you DO have a female voice but look a little off, then - if anything, you will still get an awkward look (they might at this point be a little confused) as gender recognition happens within seconds of looking at a face, its naturally ingrained into us subconsciously.
Moving away from that, voices are different ranges from male to female, women can have lower toned voices too, not every girl sounds high squeeky, barbie doll, what people need to do is basically find a voice that they feel comfortable, and is within the female range.
Catherine.
After 2 years 24/7 I am tired of the "WTF" looks when I open my mouth, so I got the "gram" spectrograph software so I can "see" how to change my voice.
I defenitely need a new voice!
Quote from: Padma on March 12, 2012, 02:01:13 PM
I find it more than a bit creepy how this topic has morphed into a completely new one: "Your take on someone else transitioning but keeping a male voice..."
I was interested to hear different people's reasons for doing one or the other, but I'm really not interested in other people strafing me for my own particular choice.
It always seems to be like that. People have a hard time separating "what is right for me" from "what is right." Sometimes it is just an accident of wording. Sometimes... it's not.
I really like your new avatar btw. That hairstyle looks pretty adorbs.
Cheers - I overreacted a bit, mind you (late taking my meds :)). I do get the sense that those of us who don't want to change our voices have no problem with those that do, but that the feeling isn't mutual. And since I got this quite spontaneously today from an old friend on the phone as well, I'm feeling beleaguered.
Yeah, yeah, it's a big hit with everyone :) (Buffy quote)
I don't want to derail this topic either, I just think there's a difference between saying "this is what I'm doing, and why" and saying "this is what I'm doing, and every mtf worthy of the name should be doing this or they're a blight on the community" - which is a sort of compilation of different responses I feel those of us who aren't changing our voices have been on the receiving end of here. Maybe no one person actually feels that strongly about it, but the combined effect is quite daunting.
ok, well like I say, people need to really just find that voice they feel comfortable with, don't worry too much, if you can't get your voice up that "high pitched bimbo" voice people seem to think all women should sound like - mainly MEN :p
Oh, also if you feel you HAVE to change your voice, to conform to social behaviour and gender recognition, then you really need to get new friends, ignore them, or what ever, move to a more socially liberal place. Just joking, but just don't let it get you down, having a male voice during transition is just another one of the boxes to cross off along the way, on your "to DO" list. Plus yeah a tape recorder or what ever works for you, I don't think there is any actual official must "have" list, but what ever helps right ?
Catherine.
lol meeeyoow. hmmm. Actually that is winding my cat up :)
Quote from: Padma on March 12, 2012, 03:11:34 PM
saying "this is what I'm doing, and why" and saying "this is what I'm doing, and every mtf worthy of the name should be doing this or they're a blight on the community"
I hope I didn't come across that way. I was just trying to relay my experience living full time with a male voice for several years and what changing my voice has done for me.
That video gives me an insane amount of cognitive dissonance. The voice does not match the appearance. That's kind of like going to the beach in a speedo where everyone can see your junk. Or shaving your head close and displaying a male pattern of hair and no curvature of the scalp. But still expecting them to treat you like a woman. Seriously - that's asking a helluvalot from other people, esp strangers. It's like there's not quite enough effort being put into it and I have trouble taking that person seriously. If a transgirl goes to all that trouble to appear femme, and then does nothing with her voice, many people won't know how to address her. At least if she makes an effort, even if her voice isn't "perfect" (mine is far from perfect), most people will pick up on that and they'll see what she's trying to accomplish, and most will go with it. With her, it's like...uh, what's going on here and how do I respond to it? The gender queues are all outta whack! I regularly encounter deep voices on women(I work in corporate IT and the women there tend to talk from their chest as they are assertive, strong women), so it's totally cool to have a deep FEMALE voice. Deep male voice + ultrafemme appearance = how the ef do I respond to this person without a back and forth that might drudge up things in public that they'd rather weren't brought up?
Just my two cents. I have a pretty strong opinion on the voice. :)
I guess it depends on what matters to you. Like I've told y'all before I'm hearing impaired. I tend to focus on the sound of a person's voice more than another person. If you don't want to get "clocked" then I can see it being important. But there are plenty of women with deep voices. Perhaps you could keep both. When I get pissed off I start busting out the biggest Brooklyn accent in the world. But normally I don't have a NYC accent. Hmm
Thinking of Suzanne Pleshette and other "smoker types" like Lucille Ball's voice went so deep when she got older compared to her whiney voice on I Love Lucy
Suzanne Pleshette - Archive Interview Part 1 of 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-c1zAtDCRg#)
Lucille Ball on Joan Rivers (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlHw1PvMv-A#)
As is the pattern here, people are getting defensive due to others being defensive.
Ah... The Circle of Susan's.
Voice is important to me... but my man voice is very masculine and one of my biggest tells. It was one of the first things I started working on. I'd like to be treated as a woman and see voice as a tool to reach that goal.
Not your cup of tea? Fine. I don't like sharing my tea. :p
Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on March 12, 2012, 09:26:09 PM
This, I believe, sums up Padma's reservations about the opinions being expressed pretty well. I take it you ladies have never met a real live genderqueer or androgyne person before and perhaps you could consider that there are some on this very site. What's staggering to me is that I do know genderqueer people in real life and they get by in cis society just fine. Yes, sometimes people give them funny looks, but they are respected and they are taken seriously, something I'm really disappointed to see as too difficult for many of the trans people on this site.
Forgive me if I'm not mistaken, but aren't genderqueer less caring about whether the world sees them as male or female? If that's the case, then what she said doesn't really apply. I think what she (and I) are trying to relay is: if you want to seriously be taken as a female to the fullest extent of whatever it embodies, then it's going to be much, much more difficult to accomplish your goals if you have an unmistakable male voice, and male speech pattern.
See, what I'm reading here a lot is "If you want to be accepted as female, you have to be feminine" whereas my experience on the whole is that if you want to be accepted as female, you just have to be female. Look at women and your will see the full spectrum out there. I don't expect us to have the same goals, since the woman I am is not feminine (nor is she masculine). And I'm no less a woman for that, I'm merely one of the millions of less feminine women out there. I don't consider myself as 'androgyne' so much as a fairly androgynous woman.
It drives me freakin' bonkers when transgirls have deep manly voices! You don't have to talk valley girl, or girly girl, you can talk butch lesbian if you want, as long as you more or less sound female.
If you're happy looking like a woman and sounding male, who the hell cares what others think.
Society cares, if you're getting clocked as being trans everywhere you go. You are in potential danger. Because like it or not, some insecure people are offended by our very existence.
Maybe those who want to keep their male voice don't care what society thinks.
Quote from: Renee D on March 13, 2012, 10:24:38 AM
I figure its up to the person whether they wish to have to deal with that or not. Not really our place to expect them to conform to our standards of what a trans woman or woman should be.
+1000000000000000000
You should care about what society thinks. Because Society may cast you out, assault you and possibly even murder you. It's really for your own safety that you should "blend" with society.
In that case you should have stayed male.
do whatever you feel comfortable with, and if she's comfortable with her male voice, then everyone else should shut their mouth.
Quote from: Zarania on March 13, 2012, 12:07:14 PM
do whatever you feel comfortable with, and if she's comfortable with her male voice, then everyone else should shut their mouth.
Should, but good luck with that.
My opinions on the matter are if you want to be seen as a girl, fine by me. I'll call you she her and all the other girl pronouns and treat you like one, male voice or female voice. But the things I say are just like a "well I'm just trying to tell you what to expect from most people."
Do what you do baby boo. It's all about you. But don't get mad at the world because people aren't calling you by the proper pronouns when you're talking like Barry White. Voice is almost as telling as thick facial hair :P
Actually, I don't think the thread should be really looking at calling anyone the scourge and 'blight' of the community, I do see both sides of the argument here though, good point that, if you expect to be treated as a woman by people you meet in society, you have to look and sound 'right' and not look as people 'so' often tell you, the word freak, or a joke, or some pervert. But equally, its also a blight to live up to other peoples expectations of what THEY actually perceive to be correct for that gender. Of Course all men and women are not exactly the same, and neither are voices, so if you can at least get your voice within the female range, then of course it will pass in public. If choose to do nothing with your voice, then you best get prepared for some awkward looks and even horrible comments or reactions from people.
But seriously ? you are going to do some thing about that male voice aren't you ? why would you go through the transition, and NOT change that one part of yourself, that is just as important as the make-up you are going to be wearing. :-\
(Heh, some of us women don't wear makeup :). Please don't tell anyone...)
Quote from: Samantharz on March 13, 2012, 11:50:00 AM
You should care about what society thinks. Because Society may cast you out, assault you and possibly even murder you. It's really for your own safety that you should "blend" with society.
I don't anyone is going to die here. If you live somewhere where people will kill you just because of your voice, please move.
Lol yes, please do.
Quote from: Stephe on March 13, 2012, 08:33:33 PM
I don't anyone is going to die here. If you live somewhere where people will kill you just because of your voice, please move.
The voice is a red flag the overall situation. If you have a Tom Waits voice, and people clock you as being transsexual, there's a very real possibility of being shunned or assaulted. "Please move" implies that you can escape it. There are bigots EVERYWHERE, don't become complacent. If you feel that you want to live your life as a woman with a deep voice and potentially get "clocked" wherever you go, more power to you, I pray to the FSM for your safety. But I feel it's a transwoman's
obligation to work on her voice.
If you want to live as and be perceived as a woman (which is what "passing" is), then you have an obligation to yourself to work on your voice. The only reason I think people take the stance of "I'm proud of my male voice" is because finding your female voice is hard, it takes work. In our microwave society where everything is instant, working hard on something is not usual. So because people don't want to work on their voice, because it's hard, they say things like "I'm proud of my male voice!" and "The world can deal with it."
The world doesn't have to deal with it. It's your problem, not theirs. It's YOUR obligation to conform to the standard image of what a female is to fit into their society, not their obligation to change their standard.
I'm not saying that it's right. I'm saying that this is the way it is, it always has been, and probably always will be.
Opinions are just that. Opinions.
And everybody has one.
This is a fascinating topic.
Too bad, once again at Susan's, people say "everybody" when they mean "in my opinion". Then others get upset...
The Circle of Susan's...
Without being perfectly PC, conversation goes down the drain here. But WHO is perfectly PC?
It is SO easy to get people riled up here. Oy!
Next, the finger pointing will begin...
Quote from: Samantharz on March 13, 2012, 11:26:43 PM
The voice is a red flag the overall situation. If you have a Tom Waits voice, and people clock you as being transsexual, there's a very real possibility of being shunned or assaulted.
I am 6'5. The tone and timbre of my voice will never be a first indicator regarding my "overall situation."
Quote"Please move" implies that you can escape it. There are bigots EVERYWHERE, don't become complacent. If you feel that you want to live your life as a woman with a deep voice and potentially get "clocked" wherever you go, more power to you, I pray to the FSM for your safety. But I feel it's a transwoman's obligation to work on her voice.
Transitioning, for me, does not imply that I will live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder in some kind of bizarre, semi-constant fear state. While I am not dismissing the propensity for bigoted violence, I'll not be ruled by it either. I hope other people feel the same way. It just strikes me, personally, as counter-intuitive to put forth the time and effort to feel at peace, only to have that peace dominated by constant fear.
QuoteIf you want to live as and be perceived as a woman (which is what "passing" is), then you have an obligation to yourself to work on your voice. The only reason I think people take the stance of "I'm proud of my male voice" is because finding your female voice is hard, it takes work. In our microwave society where everything is instant, working hard on something is not usual. So because people don't want to work on their voice, because it's hard, they say things like "I'm proud of my male voice!" and "The world can deal with it."
Living and being perceived as a woman is not so narrow as I feel you're defining it. I get what you're driving at, and agree to a certain extent, but also feel that there are as many grey areas here as there are individuals and their reasons for going through this process.
QuoteThe world doesn't have to deal with it. It's your problem, not theirs. It's YOUR obligation to conform to the standard image of what a female is to fit into their society, not their obligation to change their standard.
I'm not saying that it's right. I'm saying that this is the way it is, it always has been, and probably always will be.
The only absolute "obligations" I have involve taxes and mortality. You're playing fairly loose with semantics while making some pretty blunt strokes with a one-size-fits-all brush. There are so many potential mitigating factors, unique to each individual, that have the potential to fly in the face of your absolutes it is stunning.
The world
does have to deal with it, at least my corner of the world while I am in it. On my terms as well as their own. How each of us carries ourselves before, during and always is going to be tailored and tempered by where, who and what we are and will absolutely evolve as our experience grows, changes and moves forward.
"Your problem"..."their society".....as if by default, the two are mutually exclusive and we are no longer a part of that same society. By implying that we are not somehow still included in society, that by seeking reconciliation between our inner and outer selves, we've abandoned our rights of inclusion? That is just as bigoted as anything crafted and intentionally aimed to make someone feel "less-than" for walking this path.
I'm sure you did not intend it in such a disparaging and insulting fashion, but these kind of misunderstandings often occur when discussing things people feel strongly about. :)
Food for thought though, food for thought.
-Miki
Hmmmm I don't think there's any obligation that trans women have to try to get a female voice.
I think it's a trans woman's own choice whether to keep using her male voice, knowing that she'll be thought of as male a lot of the time.
If she thinks that's okay, it's fine with me too.
However, I wouldn't be very interested if she complains about people not treating her as female...
The only concern I can think of is that keeping a male voice will help to counteract the small, yet growing, belief that trans people are just as normal as the rest of the world.
It's unfortunate, but negative influences speak louder than positive ones because of the image cis people have of us due to the media.
I will say this though... your female voice is not fake; no-one's is. To do that voice is to literally reclaim the voice that was lost at puberty. It's about recovering a birth right that was taken away from you in a tragedy.
There is nothing fake about wanting to have something that one has lost - there is only happiness, a sense of accomplishment, and the knowledge that yet another one of us has conquered the odds.
The voice is a big deal. If you look at movies, or video games, a posessed character will often retain the voice of whoever is controlling the body. in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Ganondorf took over Zelda's body, and despite looking like the most beautiful woman ever, you knew it was Ganondorf. The voice is representative of the soul.
Some may not have cringed when they spoke in their male voices, and some may not have been as silent as possible to avoid hearing it. But overall, I don't see how it could be anything but the most honest thing you can do for your presentation - you are shaping a voice that will help people correctly recognize your soul as matching a female body.
I have changed my mind I guess. Keeping a male voice is hard to justify - generally, it's out of fear of failure to make the female voice, or lack of dedication to perform the steps necessary. Those aren't good reasons to keep a male voice... they are merely nuisances that can be pushed aside.
- Kelly
It's frustrating to sit here and have people tell me "the reason why you're doing this is..."
I'm using my voice because it's my voice. I don't think of it as "my male voice", because I don't have a "female voice" I'm not using - I just have my voice.
I'm done with "passing". I've spent my entire life "passing" (poorly) as a man, out of fear, and all that's got me is the humiliation and beatings that people here seem to think I'm going to get now instead. Been there, done that. I'm not pretending any more, and for me, putting on a voice that's not mine would be pretending. If you have a female voice that you aspire to or is important to you, then it makes obvious sense to do something to attain that. But my experience is that being myself (and accepting myself) and being honest and up front is what gets me accepted. And for me, putting on a different voice would not be that.
By the time I finish transitioning, I'm going to be a big hippy dyke. I won't be wearing makeup, or dresses, or heels, because I don't like them or feel comfortable in them. I'll be being me, and therefore I don't need other people to validate me as a woman, I just am one.
I have worked very, very hard for my voice. Changing my voice back to where it should have been, was one of the biggest changes needed for me to even have a chance at peace with myself. And I pass very well for a girl who is six foot tall and who has only been on HRT for six months. I think a large part of that reason has to be because my is starting to sound, not just passing, but naturally female. I still have a ways to go, but I know I will get there.
Personally, I could not have transitioned without changing my voice. Ironically, I loved the sound of my male voice, just not on me. If a woman wants to pass, want's to blend into cis society, then voice should be a huge focus in her transition.
But if blending in is not your intent, if you find a source of strength and pride in re-defining what it means to sound like a woman, then I'm fine with that. I can honestly see this debate has many parallels to the non-op V. post-op debate. Let us all take a step back, let us re-examine this situation, and question why we feel the way we do on the subject. No transition is the same. We are all appropriating our bodies to varying to degrees of comfort. Don't throw stones simply because your perception of a situation is different from another. We are much, much stronger in our collection of differences, than in our collections of similarities.
A lot of people say they are tired of pretending to be someone they're not, and they're not going to hide that they're a lesbian/dress like a dyke/have male hobbies/don't want to change their voice. It seems like a common complaint around here.
And I'm really not trying to be rude but it's kind of hard to understand at that point, why not just stay a man?
As a man you:
-Don't need a high voice
-Aren't expected to wear feminine clothes
-Don't have to have girly haircuts
-It's totally normal to like women
-No worries about men hitting on you
-You won't have to divorce your wife or whatever and maybe lose your job and all that
-You won't have to put any effort in at all anymore
If you call yourself a woman, why is it weird for people to expect that means you want to be feminine? There's always androgynous labels instead if those are more accurate, too.
On the other hand, as a woman you:
-Don't need a high voice
-Aren't expected to wear feminine clothes
-Don't have to have girly haircuts
-It's totally normal to like women
etc.
:)
Why is it so hard to get the reality, which is that there are already millions of women in the world who are happily living not as femme girly girls? It's not a requirement. You be the woman you are, and let me be the woman I am, please.
Quote from: pretty on March 14, 2012, 03:09:51 AM
As a man you:
-Don't need a high voice
-Aren't expected to wear feminine clothes
-Don't have to have girly haircuts
So my cisfemale wife is supposed to transition to male since she never did any of these things? NO ONE gets to define who is and isn't trans. I'd say we're dangerously close to being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but honestly we're actually already there in this thread.
I am a lesbian and wear jeans and a tee more often than skirts with a nice blouse. I do wear foundation and lipstick but rarely much else (and it is always at least as much makeup as my GG wife has and usually MORE). I do believe that voice is important, but I don't ever believe that we have a right to define others.
Now here is the funny part. I've always (my entire life) been ma'am/miss on a phone call. I actually even worked in a telemarketing call center for a few days between college and grad school. I only worked a few days because I got chewed out when I called an old lady who was a touch senile and thought she owed me money because I didn't take advantage of her and sell her more magazines with the card number she offered and quit in disgust. But while I worked there I got miss the entire time.
It is funny though if I get excited I'm more prone to get read so I'm trying to better pace my speech.
Please for the people throwing around THOU SHALTs look at what you are saying. NO ONE has a right to define another person. A person is transsexual if they say they are - that is the only requirement we should be using.
Quote from: pretty on March 14, 2012, 03:09:51 AM
And I'm really not trying to be rude but it's kind of hard to understand at that point, why not just stay a man?
As a man you:
-Don't need a high voice
-Aren't expected to wear feminine clothes
-Don't have to have girly haircuts
-It's totally normal to like women
-No worries about men hitting on you
-You won't have to divorce your wife or whatever and maybe lose your job and all that
-You won't have to put any effort in at all anymore
Hehe, I AM staying a man.... but still transitioning :D
I want to have a sexy voice
But I want feminine clothes.
I want girly haircuts.
I don't like women.
I want men to hit on me!
I don't have a wife and have no professional issues still.
What is wrong with a little effort?
There's nothing wrong whatsoever with being androgynous... nor is there anything wrong with HRT for andro people. But I disagree with the voice presentation not being necessary to be a girl... there are "cis" women I know that I've questioned whether they're cis, simply due to voice. The only reason I would think they're cis is one is my bosses wife and he's transphobic, and the other was a customer who had children... which I guess could've been sperm banked, that's why I still think of her and wonder to this day, even though I haven't seen her in years....
You don't have to have a high voice to pass as female. But if you look remotely male, act male, like masculine stuff, dress masculine, resent a majority of femininity, and you want the general public to say "she" when referring to you, good luck! I'm with you and support you 100%, but I could never expect society to be so lenient to me.
However androgyny, from my knowledge... doesn't give a crap about which gender they're labeled as so IDK why an androgynous person would care about this argument in a personal sense.
Because it feels like you're labelling any woman who isn't feminine as androgynous.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on March 14, 2012, 07:37:07 AM
There's nothing wrong whatsoever with being androgynous... nor is there anything wrong with HRT for andro people. But I disagree with the voice presentation not being necessary to be a girl... there are "cis" women I know that I've questioned whether they're cis, simply due to voice. The only reason I would think they're cis is one is my bosses wife and he's transphobic, and the other was a customer who had children... which I guess could've been sperm banked, that's why I still think of her and wonder to this day, even though I haven't seen her in years....
You don't have to have a high voice to pass as female. But if you look remotely male, act male, like masculine stuff, dress masculine, resent a majority of femininity, and you want the general public to say "she" when referring to you, good luck! I'm with you and support you 100%, but I could never expect society to be so lenient to me.
However androgyny, from my knowledge... doesn't give a crap about which gender they're labeled as so IDK why an androgynous person would care about this argument in a personal sense.
You might want to look at the gender markers for the people that have been replying. Almost all of them are F. Your believe is not necessary only theirs is. Your suspicion of "cis" women is just your personal judgement and it reflects on you not them.
I just got off the phone with my new endo referral and his wife was telling me how their office operated (non-insurance - submit myself and get check from insurance). She also asked me to forward my latest Pap smear and mammogram results. I didn't come out to her since it isn't really any of her business and the dr will have all my other test results anyway, so I just said I haven't recently had those tests. She then told me that was ok and he would do it there. So evidentially I passed on the phone because I am not the only trans-person they monitor [he is evidentially one of the few endos in the area that works with transpatients which is why my PCP was still monitoring me till now].
But now you've expanded the attack that we're not women really. Now looking male or dressing masculine means you are androgynous? I'm 5'11" with a large frame. Even after FFS and a BA I'm still large enough to look remotely male. As I said I usually wear jeans and a tee with a denim overshirt. So because I've got a big frame and not wearing a dress I'm androgynous?
Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AM
Transitioning, for me, does not imply that I will live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder in some kind of bizarre, semi-constant fear state. While I am not dismissing the propensity for bigoted violence, I'll not be ruled by it either. I hope other people feel the same way. It just strikes me, personally, as counter-intuitive to put forth the time and effort to feel at peace, only to have that peace dominated by constant fear.
Most don't.
I have noted there seems to be a group of trans people obsessed with this idea that it is "pass or you will be murdered" deal. Yes there are stats showing being trans = more like to be attacked but none of these factor in the % of these attacks that occur because of high risk behavior. I feel almost all of this higher % of risk is based on many of these trans people being sex workers and/or playing the "I'm gonna date st8 guys and not tell them" and the reaction from discovery. Some project this false concept that being trans walking down the street is a high risk behavior. I'm sure glad I don't live my life in fear like this.
Quote from: Jeneva on March 14, 2012, 07:17:50 AM
I'd say we're dangerously close to being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but honestly we're actually already there in this thread.
I want to apologize if my comments came off that way. Everyone has different needs and goals for their lives. I know mine have changed as I have changed and likely will some more. I sure don't feel I am more or less than any one else here. I just was trying to convey that for me changing my voice did more as far as meeting my goal of being seem as a woman by more people than HRT did. YMMV of course.
Quote from: Renee D on March 13, 2012, 11:46:51 PM
Well darn, we'd all better go back to our original male selves then as to society in general, a female is a person born that way with the whole xx chromosome thing going on. The whole "obligation" bit is just silly. Its up to the individual on how they wish to be perceived by others. They don't have to conform unless they wish to. If that were the case, we'd better set all those butch lesbians straight and femmy dudes too. And hey. while we're at it, that whole homosexual thing is a bit dodgy on conforming to society's standards of what a relationship and sex is about too, isn't it?
Butch Lesbians and flamboyant gay men are now largely acceptable standards. If you read what I wrote previously, I already covered that. What is not considered as an "acceptable standard" by our society is a woman doing a very convincing Barry White impression.
The gay community fought for decades to get where they are at now, it didn't happen overnight. Yes these things can change, and they should, but it takes time. One cannot blindly assume that society will automatically change overnight.
Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AMTransitioning, for me, does not imply that I will live the rest of my life looking over my shoulder in some kind of bizarre, semi-constant fear state. While I am not dismissing the propensity for bigoted violence, I'll not be ruled by it either. I hope other people feel the same way. It just strikes me, personally, as counter-intuitive to put forth the time and effort to feel at peace, only to have that peace dominated by constant fear.
Very very well put. I don't live in a constant fear. I worked hard on my appearance and on my voice. I walk around with a true confidence and no one challenges that I am female. I am just stating that it's foolish to unnecessarily put oneself in harm's way, when it can be avoided with a bit of work. I've even offered to help people with it.
Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AMLiving and being perceived as a woman is not so narrow as I feel you're defining it. I get what you're driving at, and agree to a certain extent, but also feel that there are as many grey areas here as there are individuals and their reasons for going through this process.
I agree. Different strokes for different folks. But the more "grey area" that people abide in, the more potential danger they could be in. Again, I feel that this can be avoided.
Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AMThe only absolute "obligations" I have involve taxes and mortality. You're playing fairly loose with semantics while making some pretty blunt strokes with a one-size-fits-all brush. There are so many potential mitigating factors, unique to each individual, that have the potential to fly in the face of your absolutes it is stunning.
I never meant to come across as though I believe "one-size-fits-all". I certainly understand completely that there are individual circumstances. I see it this way; we all transition to be our happy, true selves. I personally hated ever being identified as male, so I worked hard so that would NEVER happen again. I figure most transwomen on this site (excluding the more genderqueer folk) feel the same way. If your voice causes you to be identified as male why wouldn't you want to change it? If you don't mind being identified as male, well then I feel something is wrong. You may be genderqueer. Someone who truly identifies as being female should not want to be identified as male for any reason.
Quote from: Miki on March 14, 2012, 01:52:43 AMThe world does have to deal with it, at least my corner of the world while I am in it. On my terms as well as their own. How each of us carries ourselves before, during and always is going to be tailored and tempered by where, who and what we are and will absolutely evolve as our experience grows, changes and moves forward.
"Your problem"..."their society".....as if by default, the two are mutually exclusive and we are no longer a part of that same society. By implying that we are not somehow still included in society, that by seeking reconciliation between our inner and outer selves, we've abandoned our rights of inclusion? That is just as bigoted as anything crafted and intentionally aimed to make someone feel "less-than" for walking this path.
Again, I apologize if that is how I came across. I certainly believe that we should have the same rights and inclusion as everyone else. Like it or not though, the world considers us, in many cases, to be unsavory. I believe that things can change, but in a safer, less "loud and proud" approach. "Loud and Proud" works for gay rights, but as you stated previously one size does not fit all. I believe that the best way we can initiate any kind of change is from the inside, more-or-less covertly. We're smart people, I'd even say we're smarter than average, we don't need to resort to "Loud and Proud".
I agree that certain changes NEED to happen. But maybe we should reevaluate what needs to change. The female voice, pitch, timbre, resonance; these are things largely out of their control. It's not societal gender-role that woman have higher, less resonant voices. Sure you can talk like a butch lesbian and pull off being female, I applaud you if you do, and that's fantastic. You would still be falling in the range of what is largely accepted to be "female".
But a woman doing a very convincing Barry White impression is simply awkward in the best of situations. Why is it awkward? Because, genetic cis-women do not naturally possess the ability to do so.
I don't say these things to come across as mean. I apologize, sincerely if I sound that way. I do it out of concern. I hate the thought of any of us being hurt, be it mentally or physically, because of our unfortunate circumstances. It is out of genuine concern that I adamantly insist on trying to blend with society.
Darn I forgot to look on the next page. Oh well, my response was long enough.
I really don't want to see people get heated over this discussion. We're all family, and we can discuss this with civility and peace. We are all here just listening to each others ideas, not trying to prove who is right and who is wrong.
No one is any more or less trans than anyone else. I deeply believe that.
I also believe that being feminine does not mean you have to wear a pink bow in your hair while wearing fluffy dresses and dancing with butterflies. Being female covers a wide, vast range. But, unfortunately our society is narrow. If you want to be accepted by society you need to fall within their narrow range.
If you don't care about society, or what society thinks, more power to you. I'm really not that strong. It's a very brave way to face the world.
Quote from: Samantharz on March 14, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
I don't say these things to come across as mean. I apologize, sincerely if I sound that way. I do it out of concern. I hate the thought of any of us being hurt, be it mentally or physically, because of our unfortunate circumstances. It is out of genuine concern that I adamantly insist on trying to blend with society.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify. It makes it easier to avoid reading into text without all the context in play, so, thanks :)
Reading back, I can admit that I got touchy with wording and intent here. Sometimes it is easier to react to how someone says something than what they are actually trying to convey, and I apologize for that.
My cross to bear is having been told, at a support group no less, that no matter what I do, what steps I take, what surgeries I endure, that I'll never, ever pass and that by even trying I was "making it harder for the rest of us." That I should "give up and just learn to deal with the reality of it." That was early on, and I almost let that one experience derail me completely. It was a crushing thing to hear at the time, and while it still stings, I think I've gained the ability to take other people projecting their angst in my direction with more than a few grains of salt.
So for me, personally, anything and everything I can do to be who I am, voice included, makes sense, but I have to remain a staunch supporter of the premise that everyone has an inherent right to choose their own path in this, or anything. That includes recognizing that people have the right to fail as well, but never based on my personal standards or overarching judgement, but only their own.
-Miki
Quote from: Jeneva on March 14, 2012, 07:17:50 AM
So my cisfemale wife is supposed to transition to male since she never did any of these things? NO ONE gets to define who is and isn't trans. I'd say we're dangerously close to being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but honestly we're actually already there in this thread.
Well, she didn't transition to female so it's not weird to be however she is...
If I said I wanna be a vampire but I love garlic, I faint at the sight of blood, I think fangs are gross, I'm not into capes and bats scare me, people might be like "okay, where's the vampire part though? Are you sure you want to be a vampire?" But if I just happened to be a vampire, nobody would be like "are you sure you want to be a vampire" 'cause I didn't choose to be one.
The point is that once you decide in no uncertain terms that your birth gender is wrong and you want to change it, you are accepting, to some level, a stereotype for yourself. Because in the first place, gender is about a general stereotype of certain behaviors that apply more to either men or women. So sure, you can go, "well women
can do and be anything!" But the other side of that coin is that men
can also do and be anything. It's just that women and men are going to have a harder time doing some things because they're not typical things for women/men to do/be.
So if most of the things someone wants to do are typical of men for whatever reason, and socially that keeps becoming a brick wall they hit in transition, at that point, what would they gain from calling themselves a woman? And how do you even define "woman" if it's:
-not about your physical sex
-not about your orientation
-not about how you behave
-not about the things you like
-not about the way you present yourself to the world
I'm not being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but I am being "more gendered than thou" I guess, because I don't know why you would bother to call yourself a woman in the same breath that you're trying to strip every ounce of meaning from the term "woman" so you can morph it into something that's hardly even different from male life.
Quote from: Stephe on March 14, 2012, 08:38:38 AM
I have noted there seems to be a group of trans people obsessed with this idea that it is "pass or you will be murdered" deal. Yes there are stats showing being trans = more like to be attacked but none of these factor in the % of these attacks that occur because of high risk behavior. I feel almost all of this higher % of risk is based on many of these trans people being sex workers and/or playing the "I'm gonna date st8 guys and not tell them" and the reaction from discovery. Some project this false concept that being trans walking down the street is a high risk behavior. I'm sure glad I don't live my life in fear like this.
I agree that this thread is massively overstating the risk of physical harm.
Quote from: Samantharz on March 14, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
I am just stating that it's foolish to unnecessarily put oneself in harm's way, when it can be avoided with a bit of work.
But are they really in harm's way? This thread is greatly exaggerating the threat of physical harm. I live in the middle of the bible belt and have never had anyone physically threaten me even at my most non-passing in both rural and city environments.
Quote from: Samantharz on March 14, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
If you don't mind being identified as male, well then I feel something is wrong. You may be genderqueer. Someone who truly identifies as being female should not want to be identified as male for any reason.
Do you see how this fits the standard ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou argument - "If X then not trans" Has anyone said they actually like being identified as male? And even if they did someone else has no right to deny they are trans.
Quote from: Samantharz on March 14, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
I agree that certain changes NEED to happen. But maybe we should reevaluate what needs to change. The female voice, pitch, timbre, resonance; these are things largely out of their control. It's not societal gender-role that woman have higher, less resonant voices. Sure you can talk like a butch lesbian and pull off being female, I applaud you if you do, and that's fantastic. You would still be falling in the range of what is largely accepted to be "female".
But a woman doing a very convincing Barry White impression is simply awkward in the best of situations. Why is it awkward? Because, genetic cis-women do not naturally possess the ability to do so.
But how many men can do a Barry White impression without trying really hard. Someone saying they aren't changing their voice doesn't automatically mean they sound like Barry White. What if their voice were already in the fuzzy zone? Sure if they tried they could likely sound more feminine, but perhaps they have enough?
Quote from: pretty on March 14, 2012, 12:39:18 PM
... I don't know why you would bother to call yourself a woman in the same breath that you're trying to strip every ounce of meaning from the term "woman" so you can morph it into something that's hardly even different from male life.
And therein lies the problem. Because you can't understand why women aren't all feminine and heterosexual, this discussion can only go round in circles. If you can accept that some women are not feminine, and some women are not heterosexual - and if you can accept (as seems very difficult for you) that some of these women were born with the wrong body parts and are seeking to redress that, then we have an actual discussion. But for the moment, there's no point.
Quote from: pretty on March 14, 2012, 12:39:18 PM
Well, she didn't transition to female so it's not weird to be however she is...
If I said I wanna be a vampire but I love garlic, I faint at the sight of blood, I think fangs are gross, I'm not into capes and bats scare me, people might be like "okay, where's the vampire part though? Are you sure you want to be a vampire?" But if I just happened to be a vampire, nobody would be like "are you sure you want to be a vampire" 'cause I didn't choose to be one.
??? And a transsexual choses?
Quote from: pretty on March 14, 2012, 12:39:18 PM
So if most of the things someone wants to do are typical of men for whatever reason, and socially that keeps becoming a brick wall they hit in transition, at that point, what would they gain from calling themselves a woman? And how do you even define "woman" if it's:
-not about your physical sex
-not about your orientation
-not about how you behave
-not about the things you like
-not about the way you present yourself to the world
I'm not being ->-bleeped-<-r than thou, but I am being "more gendered than thou" I guess, because I don't know why you would bother to call yourself a woman in the same breath that you're trying to strip every ounce of meaning from the term "woman" so you can morph it into something that's hardly even different from male life.
I'm not even sure how to reply to this it is so staggering.
dash 1- Is that supposed to mean that transsexual women aren't women because they have XY? Really? ???
dash 2-Are you really denying the existence of ciswomen lesbians?
dash 3-Is a tomboy still a women then? Or are only the cheerleaders true women?
dash 4-Can I please have a copy of the handbook that describes all the things I should like to be considered a woman? Ooops, my wife and I both like to cook, but neither of us likes to clean. Does that mean that neither of us are women?
dash 5-Where do you live that most women aren't wearing jeans or slacks most of the time? Around here I suspect that 75% of ciswomen would fail this test.
How someone identifies is their own personal decision and you don't get to judge it. I suspect that a large percentage of cis-women lesbians would fail ALL (but the "first) of those "tests".
Quote from: Jeneva on March 14, 2012, 12:50:58 PM
??? And a transsexual choses?
I'm not even sure how to reply to this it is so staggering.
dash 1- Is that supposed to mean that transsexual women aren't women because they have XY? Really? ???
dash 2-Are you really denying the existence of ciswomen lesbians?
dash 3-Is a tomboy still a women then? Or are only the cheerleaders true women?
dash 4-Can I please have a copy of the handbook that describes all the things I should like to be considered a woman? Ooops, my wife and I both like to cook, but neither of us likes to clean. Does that mean that neither of us are women?
dash 5-Where do you live that most women aren't wearing jeans or slacks most of the time? Around here I suspect that 75% of ciswomen would fail this test.
How someone identifies is their own personal decision and you don't get to judge it. I suspect that a large percentage of cis-women lesbians would fail ALL (but the "first) of those "tests".
You're focusing too much on each individual point. I'm not saying any one unusual thing makes it weird to say you identify as a woman. I'm saying if it's
none of those things, then what is it?
Most women are feminine in most respects and masculine in a few. That's normal.
Most women are not masculine in most respects. And those who are probably don't strongly identify as a woman.
I think the real discussion at hand is: Define "Woman" - I personally believe that a woman is nothing more than gender roles formed by one's society, with a few anatomical differences from male.
Will there be different opinions? .... indubitably.
I don't mean to overstate the presence of a physical threat to oneself if they fail to pass; but you simply cannot ignore it. It's very real.
As I also stated, I do not subscribe to any belief of "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" - I fully believe that we are our own people and that no one can be more or less "->-bleeped-<-" than others. That feels like such a vulgar way to put it. It doesn't matter if you're genderqueer, transwoman, transman, or whatever other billions of labels we have, no one is wrong.
Saying "Barry White Impression" was supposed to be a humorous way to say that genetic women do not have deep, resonant voices. And if you want to pass, then it's necessary to address that. If you don't care about passing more power to you. But society may (and almost certainly will, in various circles) shun you, which can cause mental harm.
Quote from: Samantharz on March 14, 2012, 01:09:22 PM
I think the real discussion at hand is: Define "Woman" - I personally believe that a woman is nothing more than gender roles formed by one's society, with a few anatomical differences from male.
Yea, I would agree...
I think a lot of times people want to put the idea of womanhood on a pedestal or make it some kind of mysterious thing but what is it really? I don't think it's too deep of a concept. So I like wearing makeup and looking fab, I like dresses and skirts and pretty or elegant clothes, I have a boyfriend and I don't get into a lot of masculine things. So I would say, "okay, it makes more sense for me to live as a woman because it suits who I am." Of course, I have to do some things to pass then (though I happen to like having a feminine voice), and everybody has to do social posturing to some extent but the overall change is still toward being myself.
But yea everybody can do what they want, I'm sorry I was just trying to make sense of it :-X
This topic has gotten too far afield, too contentious and will never come to an agreed upon decision, so,
Its Locked.