I know that brain scans has shown that Transmens white and grey brain matter are like a biological males but does the brain function as a males. Like this article said that males aren't as socially sensitive and are better at spatial organization and mechanical stuff. So would a Transmans brain work as a biological males when it comes to stuff like that?
But not all biological males are good at spatial skills and some are more socially sensitive than most biological women. So I think that transmen have just as much potential biologically to have the brain function of a bio-male and all that comes with it as bio-males.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on April 02, 2012, 10:22:02 PM
But not all biological males are good at spatial skills and some are more socially sensitive than most biological women. So I think that transmen have just as much potential biologically to have the brain function of a bio-male and all that comes with it as bio-males.
This ^
Like Kreuzfidel said it all depends on the person.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on April 02, 2012, 10:22:02 PM
But not all biological males are good at spatial skills and some are more socially sensitive than most biological women. So I think that transmen have just as much potential biologically to have the brain function of a bio-male and all that comes with it as bio-males.
Well wouldn't a biomale with a feminine brain normally identify as a female and be mtf? ;)
I think the idea of a "male brain" is rubbish.
Quote from: Nygeel on April 02, 2012, 11:01:41 PM
I think the idea of a "male brain" is rubbish.
Wouldn't that p much undermine the entire medical legitimacy of trans problems and make it just like any lifestyle choice?
Quote from: pretty on April 02, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
Wouldn't that p much undermine the entire medical legitimacy of trans problems and make it just like any lifestyle choice?
Honey, you seem to say what I though reading it.
But then we are talking to guys over here... don't forget that :-)
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 02, 2012, 11:19:35 PM
Honey, you seem to say what I though reading it.
But then we are talking to guys over here... don't forget that :-)
Axélle
I don't know what difference talking to guys would make, I am just saying it's kinda important that there are physical sex differences for there to be things like "trans rights" and etc. Because if it's just a personal preference with no brain composition component then it's about no more legitimate than wanting to be a vampire or a dog.
I've always view it that trans men had male brains and trans women had female brains. And that the brain gender and body gender mismatch is what made you trans.
Quote from: Sharky on April 02, 2012, 11:34:38 PM
I've always view it that trans men had male brains and trans women had female brains. And that the brain gender and body gender mismatch is what made you trans.
Oh well, so did I - but then as we all know guys have their way to see things somewhat different at times, don't they?
I see just THAT most every day, and then it seldom is much use to argue.
The "male component" of the brain? Maybe.
Axélle
PS: "rubbish" often just means: "I just don't like the idea, um" :-)
I agree that it isn't rubbish. The fact that research shows that there's a recorded difference between FTMs and biological females brain matter, means that this isn't fabricated BS that we have in our heads.
Our physiological difference within our brain is what MAKES us male. Gender is decided before our anatomical sex. This research is important, and for someone to say it's rubbish is completely undermining it T_T
However, I think what Nygeel meant was that the "stereotypical" male brain is rubbish. In other words, no one man thinks the same, and therefore does not have the same skills as society's notion of what makes a TRUE man.
First, there is no such thing as a "Transman". Second, that is a stereotype about the math and spacial reasoning. There is a correlation between being male and having those traits, but as with all generalizations, there are many exceptions.
Quote from: poptart on April 03, 2012, 12:14:43 AM
First, there is no such thing as a "Transman".
Pretty sure.. That trans men are real and not made up to scare you like Santa and the tooth fairy?
Quote from: Geek on April 03, 2012, 12:49:31 AM
Pretty sure.. That trans men are real and not made up to scare you like Santa and the tooth fairy?
Some people find it offensive when trans man is written as one word.
The problem with that is people find everything offensive, there is no way to not offend everyone, unless nothing is said at all - but that would be ridiculous, if something upsets you it doesn't make it "not real" and it's just a missing space. People misspell all sorts of words that most kids could get correct :/
Quote from: Geek on April 03, 2012, 01:15:52 AM
The problem with that is people find everything offensive, there is no way to not offend everyone, unless nothing is said at all - but that would be ridiculous, if something upsets you it doesn't make it "not real" and it's just a missing space. People misspell all sorts of words that most kids could get correct :/
Yes intention and context should be taken into account. Some people get offended too easily. I think it's important to look at what the speaker is actually trying to say instead of attaching meaning to what was said and then getting offended. You should be able to separate emotionally from the attached meaning and the actual message.
Quote from: Sharky on April 03, 2012, 02:12:38 AM
Yes intention and context should be taken into account. Some people get offended too easily. I think it's important to look at what the speaker is actually trying to say instead of attaching meaning to what was said and then getting offended. You should be able to separate emotionally from the attached meaning and the actual message.
I don't know what the OP meant, I can only assume they meant what they said. I dont know if they realize there is a big difference between "Transman" and "trans man", so I corrected it. I would just as easily have corrected a misplaced "your" to a "you're". Just the perfectionist in me....
Quote from: poptart on April 03, 2012, 02:28:03 AM
I would just as easily have corrected a misplaced "your" to a "you're". Just the perfectionist in me....
People get in a real piss over doing that :D i love it >:-)
Quote from: pretty on April 02, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
Wouldn't that p much undermine the entire medical legitimacy of trans problems and make it just like any lifestyle choice?
What people consider a "male brain" isn't the brain of somebody who identifies as male. Often times people with aspergers syndrome are labeled as having a "very male brain" yet I know a lot of trans women with aspergers so doesn't that invalidate their gender?
Quote from: Nygeel on April 03, 2012, 09:16:07 AM
What people consider a "male brain" isn't the brain of somebody who identifies as male. Often times people with aspergers syndrome are labeled as having a "very male brain" yet I know a lot of trans women with aspergers so doesn't that invalidate their gender?
which is told to be the reason why its pretty rare for females to get aspergers compared to males.
--------
I think the gender brain reseach is still not good enough to be taken too serious.
we know theres diffrent in the brains, and we know males and females tend to have diffrent brains, but we dont know enough about exactly whats make it diffrent or if its biologically or a culture matter.
the reasech who had been on male and female brains are pretty useless, because it was made on few people and the persons who made the test knew they where expected to be better or worse than the other, before they did so.
if you tell a person he will be very good at this job, or very bad at this, then he will automatically belive so and his result will more likely be better or worse, like if you say to someone running "YOU CAN DO IT YOU CAN DO IT" he will probably run longer than if you keep shouting "YOUR ALREADY LOST, YOU CANT WIN"
on that meaning I also on the other hand belive transgender reseash to be more trustfully than the general gender brain reasesh.
but as it said before I dont think only transgenders have more masculine or fememnine brain, it also said gay people got more femenine/masculine brain, again not tested enought for me to I would take it all seriuos.
but in that caise it fit pretty well since I got an unisex brain..
Quote from: Slytherin17 on April 02, 2012, 09:37:53 PM
I know that brain scans has shown that Transmens white and grey brain matter are like a biological males but does the brain function as a males. Like this article said that males aren't as socially sensitive and are better at spatial organization and mechanical stuff. So would a Transmans brain work as a biological males when it comes to stuff like that?
I think that is too general of a question. Not all cis men's brain function the same way. Everyone's brain functions differently to different degrees, whether the person is cis or trans. Are there certain types of things men are said to excel in while women are not and vice versa? Sure, but not all men excel in these things while not all women don't excel in them.
So to answer your question, some may, but some may not because not all cis men are good at mechanics or lack sensitivity. It's a generalized stereotypical statement.
Then there is the dichotomy between the rational and the emotional- no one this far has even mentioned...
Male 'average' brain function is a LOT more 'focused' on the rational way to solve things, female 'average' plenty more 'focused' in making use of emotional part to solve issues. In the end BOTH are actually needed.
Too boot it has not much to do with IQ either, but EQ comes into it all as well.
Now go take your pick...
Am not sure if "male brain" in general terms is a "rubbish" concept, but it is not THAT easy to pin it down - to say the least.
Axélle
Quote from: Nygeel on April 03, 2012, 09:16:07 AM
What people consider a "male brain" isn't the brain of somebody who identifies as male. Often times people with aspergers syndrome are labeled as having a "very male brain" yet I know a lot of trans women with aspergers so doesn't that invalidate their gender?
Who cares. You are asking a loaded question because even if it did, it's not politically correct and being PC takes precedence over reality. But, ya know, maybe I'm the only one who has noticed, but there's *way* more "butch dyke lesbians" in the MTF board than in probably any sampling of the general female population. Similarly, there's way more "gay femme men" here. ;)
Look, people can do what they want. But there is a difference between wanting to be able to be yourself which is naturally like something, and being not very much like something but wanting to be anyway.
Just because you identify as something doesn't mean you are very much like that thing. People can identify as anything. I don't even know what "identify" means in that context. It's just a preference. It's like if I said I identify as having fabulous hair. Which I do :D
So yes, everybody's identity is just as valid, but IMO, different people's identity are based on different things. And not everybody's identity matches their brain sex... that doesn't mean brain sex doesn't exist. You can't just rewrite reality because it's convenient.... ::)
The brain scan findings are basically just the latest hint the medical community is jumping at. truth of the matter is, we have no idea how that brain which often resembles an average male brain more than it resembles an average female brain came to be the way it is at the time it is scanned.
Was it prenatal testosterone exposure? Or is it the result of many years of above-average testosterone levels? FTMs tend to have high testosterone levels prior to HRT. Or does an FTM's brain look "male" on a scan because we have identified as male for so many years. The point is, we just don't know.
What is for sure, though, is that a brain that appears more "male" or more "female" on a scan when compared to a prototypical male or female brain (which are determined by creating an average!) does not allow any conclusions about the person's gender identity.
After all, one study found that gay men's brain scans tend to be more similar to female brain scans than to male brain scans.
So it's just not that simple. How come it's not that simple? Well, a brain scan certainly doesn't give sufficient evidence regarding the contents of a brain. It's a snapshot of the hardware, that's all. And even that hardware is subject to change.
The trans community puts too much emphasis on the correlation (remember, correlation doesn't equal causation) between brain sex and gender identity. There's definitely a link (autistics are considered to have extreme male brains, and the rate of transsexuality in CAFAB people with autism is through the roof-I'm one of them), but it doesn't really mean much. The average person has a gender-neutral brain, but the average person doesn't have a non-binary identity.
Quote from: Stealthy on April 04, 2012, 12:13:31 AMThe average person has a gender-neutral brain
That doesn't make any sense. Like, most people have sexuality consistent with their sex.
Source? :)
Quote from: Stealthy on April 04, 2012, 12:13:31 AM
The trans community puts too much emphasis on the correlation (remember, correlation doesn't equal causation) between brain sex and gender identity. There's definitely a link (autistics are considered to have extreme male brains, and the rate of transsexuality in CAFAB people with autism is through the roof-I'm one of them), but it doesn't really mean much. The average person has a gender-neutral brain, but the average person doesn't have a non-binary identity.
where is everyone getting this "autism=male brain"? i have asperger's, and am female. the only thing it really does is make me awkward in social situations, trouble with eyecontact, some sensory problems, and then floppier muscles which make me more clumsy. i don't see what makes me male brained there. that just comes from the transwomen who think their the "->-bleeped-<-st of them all."
you can be a female and not be talkative or a "skilled socializer."
*i'm LD in math and spatial thinking. less capable than the average female.
First off I want to apologize to you guys for saying "transman" all this time. I had like no idea it was offensive. I'm trans and I still don't know what is offensive and what isn't, it gets kinda confusing. :icon_dizzy:
Didn't they do brain scans on mtf & ftm transsexuals that proves a correlation between them and their target gender? I can't remember where i read it but i'm pretty sure they did.
@Pretty, I understand what your saying but girl you need to calm down lol. I think you got your point across.
Quote from: MacKenzie on April 04, 2012, 01:22:19 AM
@Pretty, I understand what your saying but girl you need to calm down lol. I think you got your point across.
Lol I am always calm :D
Well, interesting to note that all of this was chewed over not too long ago...
See: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=102610.0
Axelle
Quote from: pretty on April 03, 2012, 01:51:04 PM
Who cares. You are asking a loaded question because even if it did, it's not politically correct and being PC takes precedence over reality. But, ya know, maybe I'm the only one who has noticed, but there's *way* more "butch dyke lesbians" in the MTF board than in probably any sampling of the general female population. Similarly, there's way more "gay femme men" here. ;)
Look, people can do what they want. But there is a difference between wanting to be able to be yourself which is naturally like something, and being not very much like something but wanting to be anyway.
Just because you identify as something doesn't mean you are very much like that thing. People can identify as anything. I don't even know what "identify" means in that context. It's just a preference. It's like if I said I identify as having fabulous hair. Which I do :D
So yes, everybody's identity is just as valid, but IMO, different people's identity are based on different things. And not everybody's identity matches their brain sex... that doesn't mean brain sex doesn't exist. You can't just rewrite reality because it's convenient.... ::)
Bolded for emphasis. I agree on all counts; well said.
@Moon: The effect that autism has on social skills is basically a major exaggeration of the difference between male and female social skills. For instance, autistics have a more monotone speaking style than allistics (non-autistics), like how men have a more monotone speaking style than women.
Quote from: Stealthy on April 04, 2012, 02:08:36 AM
@Moon: The effect that autism has on social skills is basically a major exaggeration of the difference between male and female social skills. For instance, autistics have a more monotone speaking style than allistics (non-autistics), like how men have a more monotone speaking style than women.
but we're still comparing apples and bananas here. the reason someone with asperger's is more monotone in speech is because they just do not understand "social code." they don't understand all the things like facial expressions, body language, and what's the appropriate way to act when, where, with who and everything in between. females could be "like males" for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with being masculine/feminine male/female. just like you could be a male with histrionic personality disorder and have excessive emotionalism, attention seeking, theatricality, and seductiveness. they do better in jobs with more creativity and imagination, but poorly in logic or analytical thinking. this is diagnosed more in women than in men.
of course, it's normal for one set of symptoms to overlap another. really gender could be characterized as "symptoms," because that's really what it is, certain criteria of behavior. people don't believe this because they say it's just what is normal and perfect, but nothing and no one is.
@Moon: I get what you're trying to get at there-but one of the most likely causes of autism is an overabundance of prenatal testosterone, which couldn't exactly result in anything BUT a male brain. Pretty much all the stats, as well as my personal experience, points to this being one of the factors that causes it.
Wow, seriously, now you're telling an MTF that her brain is male because she has Asperger's?
There's NO consensus on what the distinctive features of a male as opposed to a female brain would be. There are other groups who were supposedly exposed to high testosterone levels in the womb (certain intersex conditions, PCOS) out of which many don't grow up to identify as male.
If someone who has what is defined as a male brain (by a small group of scientists who have also pointed out that they see a gradience, not two distinctive levels) does not identify as male, then this invalidates, in return, the claim that a "mis-matched" brain inevitably makes a person transgender.
I agree with what emil said. This can be speculated about until the subject's skin is rubbed raw, but the fact is you can't get anywhere with this topic, because there is no definite answer. Brain research is very vague. There is no "male brain" or "female brain." There are variations and combinations of features that society perceives as masculine or feminine. People may or may not fit into this binary. Another thing to consider is that society operates under the structure of masculine=male and feminine=female, so that makes the results even more obscure. Someone who is trans or cis may or may not have a brain that easily falls under their gender category.
And I don't see why there are people so worried about this brain-body mismatch being the center of our "validity" as trans people who deserve to be recognized and treated. There are plenty of conditions that are recognized and treated and accepted as valid by society even though the "cause" isn't clear.
Quote from: henri on April 04, 2012, 02:26:40 PMAnd I don't see why there are people so worried about this brain-body mismatch being the center of our "validity" as trans people who deserve to be recognized and treated. There are plenty of conditions that are recognized and treated and accepted as valid by society even though the "cause" isn't clear.
This. I find there is too much emphasis on this "male brain" "female brain" jargon. Does it really matter what "brain" you have? Doesn't your self identification matter most?
@Emil: I said that people with autism have male brains, and yes, that includes transwomen. As we've already pointed out here, your brain sex often goes hand-in-hand with your gender identity, but they're NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME. There are people who identify as female (cis and trans alike) with male brains. There are people who identify as male (cis and trans alike) with female brains.
The only thing that can define a person's gender is THEMSELVES.
ok, so now i have a male brain, lol. i think the internet is seriously bad for my emotional health, so i'm just gonna take that with a grain of salt.
Quote from: Darrin on April 04, 2012, 04:37:54 PM
This. I find there is too much emphasis on this "male brain" "female brain" jargon. Does it really matter what "brain" you have? Doesn't your self identification matter most?
I don't see why people don't understand that if it is defined as just an issue of personal preference and not a real, physiological, actual medical problem, the argument for trans rights and legal protections and all that loses most of its weight, because then it is on the same footing as basically any lifestyle choice.
Quote from: pretty on April 04, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
I don't see why people don't understand that if it is defined as just an issue of personal preference and not a real, physiological, actual medical problem, the argument for trans rights and legal protections and all that loses most of its weight, because then it is on the same footing as basically any lifestyle choice.
that makes sense to me, because then the bulk of people would say "so, this is a choice. you have a penis, so you should learn to be male, you do not have a penis, so you should learn to be female." even at that, i don't see why it has to be a problem if it
was a choice, but that is just me. i do not believe ones gender expression is a threat or harm to anyone else. it's only sexism and bigotry that is why gender is so tenuous from the outside world.
Quote from: Darrin on April 04, 2012, 04:37:54 PM
This. I find there is too much emphasis on this "male brain" "female brain" jargon. Does it really matter what "brain" you have? Doesn't your self identification matter most?
Like "pretty" said, if it has no biological basis than it's akin to identifying as a dog or a vampire, and the criticism it receives is warranted. People would be correct to say "you're not a guy, but a girl who wants to be one". There are physical differences in male and female brains, and if someone has a functionally female brain they are female by definition, no matter how they identify. I mean, I could refuse to label myself as a brunette, but it doesn't change the fact that I have brown hair.
Quote from: pretty on April 04, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
I don't see why people don't understand that if it is defined as just an issue of personal preference and not a real, physiological, actual medical problem, the argument for trans rights and legal protections and all that loses most of its weight, because then it is on the same footing as basically any lifestyle choice.
Does it matter if it were a lifestyle choice? I'm not saying it is, but shouldn't people have the right and protection to live as they want to as long as they don't hurt anyone else? Also, if there is a correlation between brain patterns and being trans, then I guess we should all get brain scans before we get HRT and surgery. After all, we need to weed out those who are doing it as a mere lifestyle choice....
Quote from: pretty on April 04, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
I don't see why people don't understand that if it is defined as just an issue of personal preference and not a real, physiological, actual medical problem, the argument for trans rights and legal protections and all that loses most of its weight, because then it is on the same footing as basically any lifestyle choice.
Admitting that we don't know what causes people to be transgender isn't the same as saying it is a lifestyle choice. It is very well a real, physiological, actual medical problem, because people experience it and become much more stable and happy individuals when they get treatment for it. That's what matters. But at this point in time I don't think it is a good idea to try and say we know that the brain or whatever aspect of a person's body is what is causing it. There are more than likely a combination of factors that can contribute to a person being trans.
Quote from: Darrin on April 04, 2012, 06:17:24 PM
Does it matter if it were a lifestyle choice? I'm not saying it is, but shouldn't people have the right and protection to live as they want to as long as they don't hurt anyone else? Also, if there is a correlation between brain patterns and being trans, then I guess we should all get brain scans before we get HRT and surgery. After all, we need to weed out those who are doing it as a mere lifestyle choice....
It shouldn't matter but in our society, it does. It's like the argument over homosexuality, whether it's a choice or a biological predisposition, and it shouldn't matter but the fact is that people care. People will use it to invalidate our identities if it's a choice.
Sometimes idealism has to take a back seat to reality.
Quote from: poptart on April 04, 2012, 06:41:23 PM
It shouldn't matter but in our society, it does. It's like the argument over homosexuality, whether it's a choice or a biological predisposition, and it shouldn't matter but the fact is that people care. People will use it to invalidate our identities if it's a choice.
Sometimes idealism has to take a back seat to reality.
Yes, sometimes we do need to be realistic about our situations, but at the same time, my concern is if they do find a link with brain chemistry and being trans that'll lead to brain scans and a battery of tests before being allowed HRT and surgeries. It seems like it'll be used as more of a gatekeeping method than anything else. Which could be a big issue for some non-binary identified folks who want those things. I'd just say, be careful what you wish for.
Quote from: poptart on April 04, 2012, 06:08:18 PM
Like "pretty" said, if it has no biological basis than it's akin to identifying as a dog or a vampire, and the criticism it receives is warranted. People would be correct to say "you're not a guy, but a girl who wants to be one". There are physical differences in male and female brains, and if someone has a functionally female brain they are female by definition, no matter how they identify. I mean, I could refuse to label myself as a brunette, but it doesn't change the fact that I have brown hair.
Well what if it's the hormones, not the brain. There's evidence that might point to that as well. Then everyone who argued it's their brain that defined their gender would be screwed. As someone else pointed out, it is most likely a combination of factors - and a combination of factors never creates such as clear-cut distinction as some seem to wish for.
Additionally, there is a difference between "i am male/female because my brain says so" and "i am male/female because my brain looks a lot like a male/female brain on a scan".
Assuming no one here had a brain scan performed to "determine" their gender, what if your brain scan "matches" the gender you were assigned at birth? Would that make you any less trans? Would it make being trans feel like a choice to you?
Quote from: emil on April 04, 2012, 07:04:28 PM
Well what if it's the hormones, not the brain. There's evidence that might point to that as well. Then everyone who argued it's their brain that defined their gender would be screwed. As someone else pointed out, it is most likely a combination of factors - and a combination of factors never creates such as clear-cut distinction as some seem to wish for.
Additionally, there is a difference between "i am male/female because my brain says so" and "i am male/female because my brain looks a lot like a male/female brain on a scan".
Assuming no one here had a brain scan performed to "determine" their gender, what if your brain scan "matches" the gender you were assigned at birth? Would that make you any less trans? Would it make being trans feel like a choice to you?
... Which hormones are you referring to? If hormones could influence a person's gender then taking HRT would affect gender identity, which it doesn't. Do you mean the prenatal hormones that assist in developing the brain and programming it to be either male or female, physically and functionally?
You can not determine gender on a brain scan because the part of the brain that determines gender, part of the hypothalamus, is only accessible after death. All the research that's been conducted on gendered brain structure/chemistry has been conducted post mortem. It's a non-issue, therefore.
If my brain wasn't physically and functionally male I wouldn't experience the psychological symptoms of transsexualism in the first place, and yes it would make me "less trans" entirely. I'd be a cisgendered girl.
Quote from: poptart on April 04, 2012, 07:55:50 PM
... Which hormones are you referring to? If hormones could influence a person's gender then taking HRT would affect gender identity, which it doesn't. Do you mean the prenatal hormones that assist in developing the brain and programming it to be either male or female, physically and functionally?
You can not determine gender on a brain scan because the part of the brain that determines gender, part of the hypothalamus, is only accessible after death. All the research that's been conducted on gendered brain structure/chemistry has been conducted post mortem. It's a non-issue, therefore.
If my brain wasn't physically and functionally male I wouldn't experience the psychological symptoms of transsexualism in the first place, and yes it would make me "less trans" entirely. I'd be a cisgendered girl.
well, clearly we're all transgender here. if we weren't, i highly doubt any of us would've felt these feelings in the past or google searched and joined this site. you could keep looking for something more, but there just isn't.
The answer is yes, with the caveat that some cis males do deviate from the norm, and so would do some transmen
I'd just like to point out that the post-mortem studies being mentioned are on very small sample sizes.. And the results, even then, were somewhat equivocal..
Do I think there is a difference between the physical structure of a male and female brain? Sure, that's a given.. Do I think that trans people have the opposite type brain to their birth gender? No, not entirely.
Quote from: poptart on April 04, 2012, 07:55:50 PM
... Which hormones are you referring to? If hormones could influence a person's gender then taking HRT would affect gender identity, which it doesn't. Do you mean the prenatal hormones that assist in developing the brain and programming it to be either male or female, physically and functionally?
I'm referring to the exposure of a testosterone level higher than average, throughout a longer period of time, also during critical developmental periods, not just in the womb. It has been found that FTMs tend to have higher testosterone levels:
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/4/1011.short
Hormones CAN in fact reshape the brain, throughout our lives, there has been research on that as well.
And there HAS been research showing "gendered" brain structures on scans, not just post mortem via brain slicing, so your information isn't up to date in that respect:
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/01/26/scans-show-difference-in-transgender-brains/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395610001585
Also, the brain-slicing findings only ever referred to MTFs:
http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/TRANSGENDER.pdf
Once you've read through this you will find out that transgendered person's brain might very well appear more "in between" than just simply "male" or "female" (ignoring for a moment that "male" and "female" as binary categories aren't well established at all when it comes to brains).
In my opinion, it's really important that we should do our research before simply claiming we know our brain is physically male or female, especially if one wants to claim that this detail is supposed to make all the difference. It is just as important, however, to keep in mind that all the research which has been done on the subject so far included very small sample groups and thus all the conclusions made were phrased very tentatively. There are still a dozen factors that have been disregarded completely so far, and it is far too early on to think things have been figured out.
Quote from: emil on April 04, 2012, 10:44:28 PM
I'm referring to the exposure of a testosterone level higher than average, throughout a longer period of time, also during critical developmental periods, not just in the womb. It has been found that FTMs tend to have higher testosterone levels:
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/4/1011.short
Hormones CAN in fact reshape the brain, throughout our lives, there has been research on that as well.
And there HAS been research showing "gendered" brain structures on scans, not just post mortem via brain slicing, so your information isn't up to date in that respect:
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/01/26/scans-show-difference-in-transgender-brains/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395610001585
Also, the brain-slicing findings only ever referred to MTFs:
http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/TRANSGENDER.pdf
Once you've read through this you will find out that transgendered person's brain might very well appear more "in between" than just simply "male" or "female" (ignoring for a moment that "male" and "female" as binary categories aren't well established at all when it comes to brains).
In my opinion, it's really important that we should do our research before simply claiming we know our brain is physically male or female, especially if one wants to claim that this detail is supposed to make all the difference. It is just as important, however, to keep in mind that all the research which has been done on the subject so far included very small sample groups and thus all the conclusions made were phrased very tentatively. There are still a dozen factors that have been disregarded completely so far, and it is far too early on to think things have been figured out.
Well, I'm smart enough to know when I've been beat.
Quote from: pretty on April 03, 2012, 01:51:04 PM
Who cares. You are asking a loaded question because even if it did, it's not politically correct and being PC takes precedence over reality. But, ya know, maybe I'm the only one who has noticed, but there's *way* more "butch dyke lesbians" in the MTF board than in probably any sampling of the general female population. Similarly, there's way more "gay femme men" here. ;)
regarding your last sentence, I would say there are more people willing to be fluid in their gender presentation amongst the trans population than in the general population. It's certainly easy to back that up with anecdotal evidence here, and it almost seems like a no brainer considering we are breaking societies' rules about gender anyway.
The problem with your conclusions is that unless there is definitive science I'm not aware of, it is not yet known whether these behavioural patterns that are common to men and males/women and females occur because of brain structure, hormonal effects on brain chemistry, social conditioning, or a combination of all of these things.
So with that in mind you cannot make a strong case for male brain = male behavior until you can manage to control for social conditioning. (and good luck with that)
Oh wow, science now... eh.
How about Ockham' s razor: "other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one." Actually "Plurality must never be posited without necessity"
Please do try and tell, how a female brain = male behaviour... @#$%^&
I might be willing to spend more, much more listening time to this sort of argument.
Who cares *how* female behaviour comes about, if not in the brain... it is the BRAIN (not our ass) that makes us behave how we do.
How it all came about to be so, got next to nothing to do with how it IS in the present, in the here and now...
Axélle
Quote from: Twin Hammer Tommy on April 06, 2012, 07:43:46 AM
regarding your last sentence, I would say there are more people willing to be fluid in their gender presentation amongst the trans population than in the general population. It's certainly easy to back that up with anecdotal evidence here, and it almost seems like a no brainer considering we are breaking societies' rules about gender anyway.
The problem with your conclusions is that unless there is definitive science I'm not aware of, it is not yet known whether these behavioural patterns that are common to men and males/women and females occur because of brain structure, hormonal effects on brain chemistry, social conditioning, or a combination of all of these things.
So with that in mind you cannot make a strong case for male brain = male behavior until you can manage to control for social conditioning. (and good luck with that)
I don't really get your point :(. If social conditioning mostly or wholly creates your gender, then it makes you the gender you are and that would invalidate anyone's claim to being the gender they were not conditioned as in the first place. I wouldn't want to bother proving the existence of a brain sex because it seems pretty plain that it does exist to some degree and on the off chance that it doesn't, transsexualism is about as meaningful as picking a favorite color anyway.
People try to abstract gender into something mysterious so they can define it as anything they want but gender doesn't mean anything to begin with except as an indicator of the contrast between sex-typical personality and behavior. I don't think you can have a "gender identity" that is completely separate from the actual substance of that gender. Because then it wouldn't be a
gender identity anymore. :)
Quote from: Nygeel on April 03, 2012, 09:16:07 AM
What people consider a "male brain" isn't the brain of somebody who identifies as male. Often times people with aspergers syndrome are labeled as having a "very male brain" yet I know a lot of trans women with aspergers so doesn't that invalidate their gender?
Maybe "male brain" in that context is meaning logical brain. Sort of a social description rather than a scientific one? The thing is we really know almost absolutly nothing about the brain.
It's quite possible that pschyatrists will be thought of in the future like alchemists are today.
I feel I'm far more logical than any trans man. Yet i still feel that I think in a far more rounded opened ended way than men.
Pretty is right. Science=politics. It's about getting transgenderness reconized by insurace too :D
C'mon boys and girls. Don't so naive. Those studys are bogus at worst, insubstantial and inconclusive at best.
The real question is, do you want to pretend that it has been proven scientifcally to further you own objective till it is proven or not?
Or is there a better way? The agitators have chosen this pathway. Do you agree with them? I kind of do. But I'm certainly aware of what it is and i'm not following blindly. :D
Quote from: Nygeel on April 02, 2012, 11:01:41 PM
I think the idea of a "male brain" is rubbish.
I agree with this to an extent. The whole argument surrounding "female" and "male" brains has been used for decades to try to claim male superiority over women, by trying to prove that men have better spacial perception, better reasoning skills, better in math/science vs. women who have more "emotional intelligence," verbal communication skills, sensitivity etc. They really don't hold much water. More recently it's turned into the "different but equal" nauseating argument, and are more the material of gossip magazines that try to tell women "how to understand your man when he's an ->-bleeped-<-."
That said, I do think there is a difference, at least generally, when it comes to sexual dimorphism in certain areas of the brain. But nothing I've read seems to prove overwhelmingly in one direction or the other that it has much an effect on differences in cognitive function among the sexes. It is also problematic concept when you realise there are more than two sexes physiologically. The studies that show trans-identified people who identify one way or the other tend to have brain makeup similar to their true sex do seem to hold water, though. In that respect, it's interesting to think of how brain makeup functions to give a person a sense of self, which is where understanding your body as a particular sex seems to come in.
Quote from: Rubberneck on April 06, 2012, 03:54:38 PM
I feel I'm far more logical than any trans man.
I definitely think you're being accurate to label this a feeling, since it's impossible to meaningfully test. ::)
Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am. I am what I am and I love to be who I am.
I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV. I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best. I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason. I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream. I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes. I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help. Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience. I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way. I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences. I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.
That's who I am. Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.
Quote from: emil on April 04, 2012, 01:03:48 PM
Wow, seriously, now you're telling an MTF that her brain is male because she has Asperger's?
There's NO consensus on what the distinctive features of a male as opposed to a female brain would be. There are other groups who were supposedly exposed to high testosterone levels in the womb (certain intersex conditions, PCOS) out of which many don't grow up to identify as male.
If someone who has what is defined as a male brain (by a small group of scientists who have also pointed out that they see a gradience, not two distinctive levels) does not identify as male, then this invalidates, in return, the claim that a "mis-matched" brain inevitably makes a person transgender.
There is many anatomical dimorphic centers in the brain, there are many dimorphic pathway in the brain, there many dimorphic processing ways in the brain. The distribution of receptors and neurotransmitters is also dimorphic.
Having stated those facts, here is one more: no human has a perfect male or a perfect female brain; every body lies along an spectrum with some characteristics of both.
So, how about "gender identity" center? Well, if you are and XY embryo (first trimester) you will need ESTROGEN inside the cells of your Stria terminalis (ST) so they can become masculine like. If you are a XX embryo, it is imperative that all estrogen be sequester so that your ST remains female in nature. For XY failure to have enough estrogen seems to result in GID. In XX failure to have enough alpha feto protein 1(the protein that sequesters estrogen and testosterone) seems to result in GID.
Belive it or not!
Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV. I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best. I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason. I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream. I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes. I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help. Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience. I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way. I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences. I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.
That's who I am. Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.
If this was a dating site I would have sent you a virtual rose by now. ::) ;) LOL
Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am. I am what I am and I love to be who I am.
I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV. I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best. I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason. I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream. I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes. I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help. Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience. I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way. I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences. I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.
That's who I am. Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.
FINALLY. Someone who gets it.
This is what I've been trying to say all along. I don't think we need brain scans to tell us who we are and as far as society goes, people listen to the Enquirer before any scientist. People will always be there to judge you no matter what ammo you have to back up who you are. And call me a dreamer, but I don't want anyone mapping my brain to get HRT or surgery. It's difficult enough as it is. If I feel I'm a man, I am one. There will be people out there that even with scientific evidence will say I'm not a man because I don't have a penis. Go figure. They haven't found the "gay gene" either and gay people are making strides towards equality. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's inching it's way closer. I think in the LGB community you're seeing a lot of strong figures coming out in the media in support. Believe it or not, at least in America, the media holds A LOT of water. And I think that's why positive things are happening. The trans* community however, doesn't have the same support. Not even from our own community. I think that play a major role in equality. Just my thoughts. Call me a dreamer, but I think the bigger issue is lack of visibility.
Quote from: Darrin on April 06, 2012, 09:07:44 PM
FINALLY. Someone who gets it.
This is what I've been trying to say all along. I don't think we need brain scans to tell us who we are and as far as society goes...
True enough! Neither we need to know how the hart works, but it is bice to know.
The "why and how" is what it drives us to the stars, curiosity
Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am. I am what I am and I love to be who I am.
I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV. I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best. I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason. I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream. I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes. I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help. Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience. I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way. I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences. I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.
That's who I am. Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.
+1 (million). Yes. This. I couldn't say it better. Thanks for being waaay more eloquent that me, Squirrel. :D
Quote from: Arch on April 06, 2012, 07:16:34 PM
I definitely think you're being accurate to label this a feeling, since it's impossible to meaningfully test. ::)
and you may have reafirmed it by an incriment;)
:police:
Many posts in this thread seem like (thinly veiled) personal attacks. Let's refrain from continuing such things.
Quote from: Connie Anne on April 06, 2012, 10:42:21 PM
:police:
Many posts in this thread seem like (thinly veiled) personal attacks. Let's refrain from continuing such things.
Thanks :)
Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am. I am what I am and I love to be who I am.
I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV. I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best. I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason. I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream. I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes. I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help. Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience. I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way. I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences. I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.
That's who I am. Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.
I don't want to make this heated so I'll say here that i'm stating this calmly and rationally.
As someone who had to grow up as a male i'm very offened if you think being a man is lying around in pajamas all day and being lazy.
It was a ->-bleeped-<- fight. It's tough. Like I said dude. I'm not chimpin out or attacking your personality. I'm just interested to know if all those things were extranious to being a guy or do you think those attributes you described are masculine?
Quote from: Darrin on April 06, 2012, 09:07:44 PM
FINALLY. Someone who gets it.
This is what I've been trying to say all along. I don't think we need brain scans to tell us who we are and as far as society goes, people listen to the Enquirer before any scientist. People will always be there to judge you no matter what ammo you have to back up who you are. And call me a dreamer, but I don't want anyone mapping my brain to get HRT or surgery. It's difficult enough as it is. If I feel I'm a man, I am one. There will be people out there that even with scientific evidence will say I'm not a man because I don't have a penis. Go figure. They haven't found the "gay gene" either and gay people are making strides towards equality. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's inching it's way closer. I think in the LGB community you're seeing a lot of strong figures coming out in the media in support. Believe it or not, at least in America, the media holds A LOT of water. And I think that's why positive things are happening. The trans* community however, doesn't have the same support. Not even from our own community. I think that play a major role in equality. Just my thoughts. Call me a dreamer, but I think the bigger issue is lack of visibility.
re the bold. That's good because we don't. We are able to transition without a brain scan. It's also good because the brain scan wouldn't prove anything :)
The way I understood Squirrel's statement was that this particular discussion is difficult, because we don't have set answers. We cannot say with 100% certainty that factors A, B, or C are the causes of being trans just like we can't say they are not factors. That was how I took it anyway.
Quote from: Rubberneck on April 06, 2012, 10:50:18 PM
As someone who had to grow up as a male i'm very offened if you think being a man is lying around in pajamas all day and being lazy.
Growing up is difficult, I think. We all struggle when we are younger to fit into society, roles, and expectations. I know that I certainly struggled growing up. I don't think one gender has it harder than the other(s). Its just a different set of problems and struggles. It ends up being doubly difficult if a child/young adult does not fit in with the rest of the group they are "supposed" to be a part of. I remember being forced as a kid to socialize with girls, and it was terrible, because I was different, and when you are different, you become a target.
I doubt Squirrel was saying that "lying around in pajamas all day and being lazy" is a "male" thing. I think he was saying that that is something that he does on occasion, and it doesn't make his identity any less valid.
Quote from: Connie Anne on April 06, 2012, 10:42:21 PM
:police:
Many posts in this thread seem like (thinly veiled) personal attacks. Let's refrain from continuing such things.
Sorry Connie!
I try to mind myself, even though I sometimes speak without thinking. If I have said anything offensive or that seems like a personal attack, I apologize.
Quote from: Ayden on April 06, 2012, 11:02:46 PM
Sorry Connie!
I try to mind myself, even though I sometimes speak without thinking. If I have said anything offensive or that seems like a personal attack, I apologize.
Ayden,
My admonition was more in general. Your post itself does not seem offensive.
The post you applauded seemed, to me, to show the joy of dichotomy with regards to gender. To give an MTF's perspective on this, I like many "girly" things, pink & purple are among my favorite colors. But, I also like the Star Wars movies because I like the sound and light show. I like games like Doom II and Quake II and Halo because I like watching things explode. These aren't typically feminine and it could be argued they are due to a "male brain" as I was born male.
That's my take on the topic, for now.
Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 06, 2012, 08:34:36 PM
Oh good grief, I don't need to see a doctor's scan or a bisected section of my brain to know who and what I am. I am what I am and I love to be who I am.
I'm a guy and I like writing, cats, laying around in my pajamas all day and historical dramas on TV. I like meeting new people even though I have social anxiety but I try my best. I've been known to take long walks in the rain for no particular reason. I like fruit salad and baked potatoes with extra sour cream. I love big sloppy hamburgers that drip grease and extra syrup on my pancakes. I'm greedy but generous to all those who I feel I can help. Sometimes I'm lazy but easily excited by a new idea or experience. I'm vain and I see everyone as wonderfully beautiful in their own special way. I want to change the world to make it more tolerate of those with differences. I feel everyone should be celebrated because we all are wonderful unique creatures within ourselves.
That's who I am. Not a bit of that can be found on a scan but that doesn't make it any less real.
Not to be rude but nobody expects to see the intricacies of a person's personality on a brain scan.
All it would show are sweeping differences that make you more prone to behaving in certain ways or liking certain things.
I think the main interesting question in all this is why people who can be themselves more easily as their birth sex go out of their way to transition, only to end up making it harder to be themselves.
Like, I like wearing dresses and makeup and I have a boyfriend and I like crafty things and have social anxiety too :( and all that. So naturally I wouldn't want to be a man, that would make it difficult to be myself. As a man I have to spend every day hearing "cut your hair," getting called a ->-bleeped-<-, getting called weak and too small, being taken advantage of, etc. And that's even while being too afraid to do most of the things I like doing. Who knows what kind of crap I would get if I did them. I fit in less, to say the least.
But if I liked shoot 'em up video games and car repair and gun collecting and picking up women and I had a dominant personality and then I wanted to transition anyway it would be like, okay, what do I stand to gain? Why would I identify as a woman if I just really want to do mainly male things?
I think brain sex can at least show why we like what we like. Why we choose to transition? Probably not, because people seem to transition for different reasons...
So yeah, again. Not trying to offend people at all. :) I am just eternally curious why people who do not really identify with the norms of their target sex would put themselves through transition and all its difficulties. (And I am NOT aiming that at squirrel or any specific person, I just mean in general).
Quote from: Rubberneck on April 06, 2012, 10:50:18 PM
As someone who had to grow up as a male i'm very offened if you think being a man is lying around in pajamas all day and being lazy.
I'm just interested to know if all those things were extranious to being a guy or do you think those attributes you described are masculine?
You totally missed the point he was making.
Quote from: Connie Anne on April 06, 2012, 11:09:30 PM
To give an MTF's perspective on this, I like many "girly" things, pink & purple are among my favorite colors. But, I also like the Star Wars movies because I like the sound and light show. I like games like Doom II and Quake II and Halo because I like watching things explode.
Nothing wrong with liking things! Actually, this reminds me of the woman is like my sister (we've been friends since we were kids). She rocks at Halo and has beaten me of several occasions (okay, all of them), loves cars, and is a huge sci fi fan. But, she also loves being "girly" and adores purple sweaters. Doesn't make her any less female. :) I think its great that people have interests that can go across genders. Not that I agree with gendering activities anyway. I like pro wrestling and action movies, cars, video games, and doing physical labor. But, I also adore baby animals (seriously, who doesn't!), enjoy watching romantic comedies or "chick flicks" (I hate that term), and sometimes I just get in the mood write silly little short stories (usually as mushy as can be).
Honestly, I think people should enjoy what makes them happy, regardless of their gender identity or physical body.
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
But if I liked shoot 'em up video games and car repair and gun collecting and picking up women and I had a dominant personality and then I wanted to transition anyway it would be like, okay, what do I stand to gain? Why would I identify as a woman if I just really want to do mainly male things?
I think this is a personal thing. Playing games, liking cars and mechanics, collecting guns, etc. can be something that women are interested in as well. That pretty much describes my Aunt B perfectly. She even has the dominant personality to boot. Actually, it describes my lesbian mechanic as well. Identity and interests don't always have to match up perfectly, just like being attracted to someone of the same physical sex doesn't affect identity. Some folks are trans men and attracted to men, sometimes they are transwomen and attracted to women, and that is perfectly fine. Some folks have interests that are typically associated with their gender identity and some don't, and that is okay too. My partner (cis male) wears bright pink socks and a rainbow belt, and openly coos at adorable animals, babies, and clothes. He still sees himself as being male, even though a lot of his interests and hobbies are considered "female" and he has no gender conflicts.
To each his/her/hir/their own. But, this is only my opinion, and I in no way attribute this anyone else. I also do not want to offend, either, just thought I would offer my thoughts, since this thread got me thinking.
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
So yeah, again. Not trying to offend people at all. :) I am just eternally curious why people who do not really identify with the norms of their target sex would put themselves through transition and all its difficulties. (And I am NOT aiming that at squirrel or any specific person, I just mean in general).
What you like to do really has nothing to do with how you identify your gender. I transitioned because I was likely going to kill myself soon if I didn't take those steps. Is transition and all that comes with it hard? Sometimes, depends on who you are interacting with, but to me the hardness/difficulties of that were far outweighed by trying to live as/being viewed as a gender that I knew I was not.
Not really sure what you mean by "norms of target sex" as those vary culturally and are usually stereotypical expectations placed on individuals.
Quote from: Ayden on April 07, 2012, 12:42:07 AM
I think this is a personal thing. Playing games, liking cars and mechanics, collecting guns, etc. can be something that women are interested in as well. That pretty much describes my Aunt B perfectly. She even has the dominant personality to boot. Actually, it describes my lesbian mechanic as well. Identity and interests don't always have to match up perfectly, just like being attracted to someone of the same physical sex doesn't affect identity. Some folks are trans men and attracted to men, sometimes they are transwomen and attracted to women, and that is perfectly fine. Some folks have interests that are typically associated with their gender identity and some don't, and that is okay too. My partner (cis male) wears bright pink socks and a rainbow belt, and openly coos at adorable animals, babies, and clothes. He still sees himself as being male, even though a lot of his interests and hobbies are considered "female" and he has no gender conflicts.
To each his/her/hir/their own. But, this is only my opinion, and I in no way attribute this anyone else. I also do not want to offend, either, just thought I would offer my thoughts, since this thread got me thinking.
Well, that is kinda what most people say, "I know ___ person and they are very masculine for a woman" and stuff, but that's not really my point. I mean, it's not weird for a cis person to be whatever because cis people just are how they ended up.
A cis person can say "well, I don't fit my gender's stereotype but it's how I ended up so oh well."
But for a trans person, they're not fitting into a stereotype that they actually accepted for themselves and went well out of their way to be included in. So that is the confusing part.
I don't know, sometimes I feel like we forget that we are still animals at the end of the day. The sexes exist for a very specific reason and gender is a slightly more complicated extension of that. If the pants don't fit, is it even enjoyable to wear them?
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:21:55 AM
Well, that is kinda what most people say, "I know ___ person and they are very masculine for a woman" and stuff, but that's not really my point. I mean, it's not weird for a cis person to be whatever because cis people just are how they ended up.
A cis person can say "well, I don't fit my gender's stereotype but it's how I ended up so oh well."
But for a trans person, they're not fitting into a stereotype that they actually accepted for themselves and went well out of their way to be included in. So that is the confusing part.
I don't know, sometimes I feel like we forget that we are still animals at the end of the day. The sexes exist for a very specific reason and gender is a slightly more complicated extension of that. If the pants don't fit, is it even enjoyable to wear them?
I see what you are saying, but I think on this point I am going to have to ask to agree to disagree. :) I believe that humans are not a slave to their genitalia. No offense intended, of course, I just see where you are coming from, and I think that opinions about this particular topic are different for everyone.
unless any of us actually take a "standardized gender test" to prove which one we are, we have nothing to rely on but the way we feel, which is usually right. in my experience, i've learned that the only real mistake is doing what others tell you should be done. unless that persons psychic, you can trust them as much as walking blindfolded across a highway on rush hour.
Quote from: Ayden on April 07, 2012, 01:40:04 AM
I see what you are saying, but I think on this point I am going to have to ask to agree to disagree. :) I believe that humans are not a slave to their genitalia. No offense intended, of course, I just see where you are coming from, and I think that opinions about this particular topic are different for everyone.
Of course :) it's just an issue that makes me really curious. Nobody has to agree or anything lol :D
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:21:55 AM
A cis person can say "well, I don't fit my gender's stereotype but it's how I ended up so oh well."
But for a trans person, they're not fitting into a stereotype that they actually accepted for themselves and went well out of their way to be included in. So that is the confusing part.
As far as I know most trans people transition to be seen as at the most basic sense either a man or a woman not as a the stereotypical "RAWR muscleman sports maniac who loves cars" man or a "meek pretty princess who loves makeup" woman
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
So yeah, again. Not trying to offend people at all. :) I am just eternally curious why people who do not really identify with the norms of their target sex would put themselves through transition and all its difficulties. (And I am NOT aiming that at squirrel or any specific person, I just mean in general).
For me transition is about correcting a physical birth defect, to describe it in very simplistic terms.
I never really fit completely into the norms for male in my society, and I really don't think I'll fit completely into the female norms, either. However, I am in transition nonetheless. That said, I identify with more female norms than male norms. But, both are there in me.
And since starting transition I've been more consistently happy than I have in a long time. The process has not been all rainbows and roses and I'm sure I'll have ups and downs for the rest of my life. But also, the people around me are really accepting of this (seemingly) oddball woman that I am now.
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
But if I liked shoot 'em up video games and car repair and gun collecting and picking up women and I had a dominant personality and then I wanted to transition anyway it would be like, okay, what do I stand to gain? Why would I identify as a woman if I just really want to do mainly male things?
It seems a lot of emphasis has been placed on behaviour and what makes someone like 'this' or like 'that', and whether transition is in order to be more like 'this' or 'that'. But isn't it really much simpler than that?
Isn't the essence of why people transition simply so they feel comfortable within their own skin and become unshackled from the constant dissociation, dysphoria and all-pervading feeling of "wrongness" that comes from having to look at a reflection in the mirror which causes them distress and discomfort... therefore leaving them free to get on with actually
being 'this', 'that', or indeed 'the other'?
I don't know, it just seems to me that some things are needlessly overcomplicated. :-\
Pretty, this is how I look at it using a metaphor because I enjoy metaphors.
Say at the start of your life you are given a pair of shoes. These shoes are perfectly nice shoes and they are expected to carry you throughout your life. The road of life is before you and it's not completely straight and there are plenty of pitfalls, mistakes and regrets and unforeseen tragedy. There are plenty of beautiful stretches of road as well. You have no choice but to walk it so off you go. The shoes you were given don't quite fit right. As shoes they do their job but they are uncomfortable. They squish your toes and twist your ankle oddly. You start to wonder why you were given such a crappy pair of shoes to walk such a treacherous road. You look around and observe that everyone else seems to be doing better then you with their shoes. So you try and hide the fact that you have a permanent foot cramp. The problem the longer you walk in these shoes the worse they become.
So one day you are limping along and to your amazement you see someone changing their shoes. You've never seen this before. It's an amazing sight to see. Yet the longer you walk on this bumpy stony trail the more and more people you see stopping to change their shoes. Then one magical day you see a pair on the side on the road without an owner. By now your feet in your ill-fitting shoes are bleeding, blistered and nearly ruined. So you make the radical decision to stop and change your shoes. People around you are aghast and horrified at you. No one ever stops to change their shoes. You should be thankful you have shoes at all. These news shoes will look out of place with the rest of your outfit, don't you think? Still you know what must be done so you change your shoes.
At first it doesn't work out so well. The shoes are brand new and not broken in. Your feet are so sore already that this added strain seems extra painful. You almost wish you hadn't left your old shoes behind. Still the longer you walk, the better the shoes start to feel. Slowly they conform to your feet and they begin to fit in a way your old shoes never did. Bit by bit you begin to walk taller. Instead of stumbling along you can take proud upright steps. The road before you is just as dangerous as before but with these new shoes you can navigate it the way that bring fulfillment. The difficult road of life hasn't changed, you yourself haven't changed, but the way you walk through life has changed. It was just a small change really. Just your shoes but what a wonderful and much needed difference it has made. Whether it's cultural, the fault of society or anything else, it doesn't matter. What matters, to me, is that after changing my shoes, my road is still full of pitfalls but it's much much easier to navigate since I took the step of changing my shoes.
Rubberneck, I don't think being a man is being lazy and laying around in pajamas. I think I, Paul, like to lay around in pajamas at times and be lazy. I'm saying that's one small little bit of who I am occasionally. I am also a guy but I do not correlate the two, male and pajamas, together. Overall I am just a person, only that, who likes to get head massages. One part of that person is male but that doesn't mean every part of me is male. Every part of me isn't lazy and every part of me isn't male. I just am, Paul, that's who I am.
I certainly do not speak for anyone else but me and no other men. I am a category onto myself, the Squirrely Paul category of awesome. ;)
That shoe metaphor is a great way to describe things!
Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 10:44:31 AM
It seems a lot of emphasis has been placed on behaviour and what makes someone like 'this' or like 'that', and whether transition is in order to be more like 'this' or 'that'. But isn't it really much simpler than that?
Isn't the essence of why people transition simply so they feel comfortable within their own skin and become unshackled from the constant dissociation, dysphoria and all-pervading feeling of "wrongness" that comes from having to look at a reflection in the mirror which causes them distress and discomfort... therefore leaving them free to get on with actually being 'this', 'that', or indeed 'the other'?
I don't know, it just seems to me that some things are needlessly overcomplicated. :-\
Well said Sephirah,
now being post-op (SRS) only 6+ months I have almost forgotten what this GID stuff was all about!
It is quite amazing... and it was THIS that forced me to do something about it (once I understood what was going on).
And yes, now the "shoes" fit, walking in much more comfort, though the road is still treacherous and winding. (Thank you for that metaphor too, Squirrel :-)
Axélle
Love the shoe metaphor.
Quote from: Andy8715 on April 07, 2012, 02:23:57 AM
As far as I know most trans people transition to be seen as at the most basic sense either a man or a woman not as a the stereotypical "RAWR muscleman sports maniac who loves cars" man or a "meek pretty princess who loves makeup" woman
Yeah of course not, but if they transition to be a "RAWR muscleman sports maniac who loves cars" woman don't you think that's at all inconsistent?
The question is, what
is a man or woman in the most basic sense? I think wildlife documentaries will tell you more about that than actually asking people about their complex feelings :D
The sexes do exist for a reason IMO, they're not totally intangible things, because if they were no different and they all did the same things just as often, there would only be one sex to begin with, ya know?
Quote from: Connie Anne on April 07, 2012, 10:27:18 AM
For me transition is about correcting a physical birth defect, to describe it in very simplistic terms.
I never really fit completely into the norms for male in my society, and I really don't think I'll fit completely into the female norms, either. However, I am in transition nonetheless. That said, I identify with more female norms than male norms. But, both are there in me.
And since starting transition I've been more consistently happy than I have in a long time. The process has not been all rainbows and roses and I'm sure I'll have ups and downs for the rest of my life. But also, the people around me are really accepting of this (seemingly) oddball woman that I am now.
I'm not saying that you specifically like to do mainly male things but there are plenty of people that transition even in spite of that being the case. I wonder what makes people feel that their body is defective even if it doesn't prevent them at all from being who they are, or even aids in it.
I mean, I really don't mean to be rude but you still have a male presentation picture for your avatar. How defective can it really feel?
Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 10:44:31 AM
It seems a lot of emphasis has been placed on behaviour and what makes someone like 'this' or like 'that', and whether transition is in order to be more like 'this' or 'that'. But isn't it really much simpler than that?
Isn't the essence of why people transition simply so they feel comfortable within their own skin and become unshackled from the constant dissociation, dysphoria and all-pervading feeling of "wrongness" that comes from having to look at a reflection in the mirror which causes them distress and discomfort... therefore leaving them free to get on with actually being 'this', 'that', or indeed 'the other'?
I don't know, it just seems to me that some things are needlessly overcomplicated. :-\
Maybe. I'm trying to wrap my head around dysphoria that is completely isolated from any specific cause but I guess it just still doesn't make sense to me. Dysphoria is something I experience because my birth sex tangibly prevents me from doing the things I enjoy, expressing my natural personality, etc. and forces me to be something to other people that I'm not. When someone tells me I can't wear makeup and I should cut my hair because I'm a "guy," I feel sad. When someone tells me I need to be more assertive because I'm a "guy," or I shouldn't be anxious, or I should be interested in girls, or sports or whatever, I feel sad. And when this happens consistently as it does, I notice a clear pattern and realize that I fit the mold of a girl much better and as a girl am much more able to be myself and express myself and be seen as I really am.
Quote from: Squirrel698 on April 07, 2012, 10:52:38 AM
Pretty, this is how I look at it using a metaphor because I enjoy metaphors.
(snipped metaphor)
Well, of course I understand transition itself. I totally get what you mean by the metaphor. What I
do have trouble wrapping my head around is what would make someone want to transition even though their first pair of shoes fit better. I mean, I am not sure about FTMs but the a lot of people in the MTF forum have for the most part had pretty successful male lives. On the MTF forum there are business owners in male-dominated fields, with wives and several children and a bunch of guy friends, etc. As someone who really never got past the start line in the male world, it's strange.
And while I am absolutely not saying they should be kept from transition or something if it's what they want, I wonder, what makes them want it in the first place if they ran so fast and so well in their old shoes? And do the new ones really even fit?
Squirrel, I love your shoe metaphor.
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
Maybe. I'm trying to wrap my head around dysphoria that is completely isolated from any specific cause but I guess it just still doesn't make sense to me. Dysphoria is something I experience because my birth sex tangibly prevents me from doing the things I enjoy, expressing my natural personality, etc. and forces me to be something to other people that I'm not. When someone tells me I can't wear makeup and I should cut my hair because I'm a "guy," I feel sad. When someone tells me I need to be more assertive because I'm a "guy," or I shouldn't be anxious, or I should be interested in girls, or sports or whatever, I feel sad. And when this happens consistently as it does, I notice a clear pattern and realize that I fit the mold of a girl much better and as a girl am much more able to be myself and express myself and be seen as I really am.
That's really interesting, and begs one question, if I may. A hypothetical one.
Suppose you were the only person on a deserted island, able to do whatever you wanted, and there was no one to say what you should or shouldn't do, or think, or feel. Would you still feel any dysphoria, or a need to transition in order to express yourself?
I can't help but infer, from what you say, that you feel that being a girl 'fits' you better because that's the only way other people will accept your personality and methods of self-expression.
Remove the 'other people' aspect and... what? I guess that's what I'm asking.
Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 01:59:52 PM
That's really interesting, and begs one question, if I may. A hypothetical one.
Suppose you were the only person on a deserted island, able to do whatever you wanted, and there was no one to say what you should or shouldn't do, or think, or feel. Would you still feel any dysphoria, or a need to transition in order to express yourself?
I can't help but infer, from what you say, that you feel that being a girl 'fits' you better because that's the only way other people will accept your personality and methods of self-expression.
Remove the 'other people' aspect and... what? I guess that's what I'm asking.
I don't think you can really separate who you are and how you relate to other people so easily.
Gender exists for social reasons and evolved out of a social context and I don't think it is useful outside of that.
I could say I would still want to look beautiful and feminine and I'm sure I would but then it would not be particularly satisfying if nobody was around to contrast that or to notice that. It's not like I find femininity especially attractive or like I idolize it. It's just how I want to present myself to the world because it's just how I naturally am. So the physical aspects of that are definitely more social because they give people a visual representation to see how I am.
I don't know, that's a weird hypothetical because I would not be in a good emotional state if I were stranded on an island. And how can you express yourself to yourself?
As someone who spent a lot of my childhood very alone I should say that I think it's hard to appreciate how much you are defined by how you relate to other people until you have nobody to relate to. I didn't really even know who I was until I began relating to people and seeing how I interact with them.
Pretty,
My current avatar isn't, to me, a male presentation. It's a presentation of happiness.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1088.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi329%2Fcam94080%2FEpoc.jpg&hash=b88c1b8836156467dca0eb3841b8980631ae9559)
This picture was taken on my first day at work as Connie; it's my employee ID. I cropped out the company name at the top, but under the picture it says "Constance McEntee" instead of "David McEntee" which had been on my original employee ID.
I'd been working at this place for a little over 6 years when I began transitioning. If the facilities guy had waited a fraction of a second longer to take the picture I'd've been laughing my head off. It was the first time I could remember being happy to be at work.
If others see a male in that picture, then that's what they see. I see a person who's just really happy.
To answer Sephirah's question, if I was completely alone and isolated and there was no one around to judge or belittle me, I'd still not feel completely right. There is something about my body that needs surgery to be changed, and that's why I'm transitioning.
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 02:23:59 PM
I don't think you can really separate who you are and how you relate to other people so easily.
Gender exists for social reasons and evolved out of a social context and I don't think it is useful outside of that.
I could say I would still want to look beautiful and feminine and I'm sure I would but then it would not be particularly satisfying if nobody was around to contrast that or to notice that. It's not like I find femininity especially attractive or like I idolize it. It's just how I want to present myself to the world because it's just how I naturally am. So the physical aspects of that are definitely more social because they give people a visual representation to see how I am.
I don't know, that's a weird hypothetical because I would not be in a good emotional state if I were stranded on an island. And how can you express yourself to yourself?
As someone who spent a lot of my childhood very alone I should say that I think it's hard to appreciate how much you are defined by how you relate to other people until you have nobody to relate to. I didn't really even know who I was until I began relating to people and seeing how I interact with them.
Thank you. :) I think I learned quite a bit from that answer. Just one more question, if I may.
Would you say that society is the mirror in which you see yourself reflected?
Quote from: Connie Anne on April 07, 2012, 02:27:30 PM
To answer Sephirah's question, if I was completely alone and isolated and there was no one around to judge or belittle me, I'd still not feel completely right. There is something about my body that needs surgery to be changed, and that's why I'm transitioning.
Thank you too, Connie, for answering my question. I do have another one, if you don't mind:
Can you put into words this feeling you have, from a purely physical standpoint, which tells you that it's not right?
It's interesting to see the differences in the way people think and feel. I find it fascinating, the individualism and perspectives. :) Although I apologise for being a nosey cow. :embarrassed:
Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 02:51:35 PM
Thank you too, Connie, for answering my question. I do have another one, if you don't mind:
Can you put into words this feeling you have, from a purely physical standpoint, which tells you that it's not right?
It's interesting to see the differences in the way people think and feel. I find it fascinating, the individualism and perspectives. :) Although I apologise for being a nosey cow. :embarrassed:
I feel that my male gentials don't belong on my body, and that the flat chest is wrong. It's like I have something hanging on the front of my body that doesn't belong there, and there's something that should be hanging on my chest that's missing.
Quote from: Connie Anne on April 07, 2012, 02:56:46 PM
I feel that my male gentials don't belong on my body, and that the flat chest is wrong. It's like I have something hanging on the front of my body that doesn't belong there, and there's something that should be hanging on my chest that's missing.
Thank you. :)
I'll go back to my ponderings now. No further questions... yet. ;D
*melts silently into the shadows*
Quote from: Connie Anne on April 07, 2012, 02:27:30 PM
Pretty,
My current avatar isn't, to me, a male presentation. It's a presentation of happiness.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1088.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi329%2Fcam94080%2FEpoc.jpg&hash=b88c1b8836156467dca0eb3841b8980631ae9559)
This picture was taken on my first day at work as Connie; it's my employee ID. I cropped out the company name at the top, but under the picture it says "Constance McEntee" instead of "David McEntee" which had been on my original employee ID.
I'd been working at this place for a little over 6 years when I began transitioning. If the facilities guy had waited a fraction of a second longer to take the picture I'd've been laughing my head off. It was the first time I could remember being happy to be at work.
If others see a male in that picture, then that's what they see. I see a person who's just really happy.
To answer Sephirah's question, if I was completely alone and isolated and there was no one around to judge or belittle me, I'd still not feel completely right. There is something about my body that needs surgery to be changed, and that's why I'm transitioning.
Oh, sorry then :)
Quote from: Sephirah on April 07, 2012, 02:51:35 PM
Thank you. :) I think I learned quite a bit from that answer. Just one more question, if I may.
Would you say that society is the mirror in which you see yourself reflected?
Thank you too, Connie, for answering my question. I do have another one, if you don't mind:
Can you put into words this feeling you have, from a purely physical standpoint, which tells you that it's not right?
I am not sure I totally understand the question :D but I think you definitely need references outside yourself to be able to judge yourself by. I don't think we are born with a strong self-image, and maybe it develops more as a result of how people react to how we present ourselves, or how we imagine they will react.
Like, for example, kids are very poorly self-aware, especially appearance-wise. They don't really care about their appearance at all until a certain age. If nobody ever reacted to how they look, would they ever even become very conscious of it themselves? I kinda doubt it, but who knows.
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
Yeah of course not, but if they transition to be a "RAWR muscleman sports maniac who loves cars" woman don't you think that's at all inconsistent?
The question is, what is a man or woman in the most basic sense? I think wildlife documentaries will tell you more about that than actually asking people about their complex feelings :D
Do you feel that it's inconsistent when a cis woman like things that are
(stereo)typically masculine or when a cis man likes things that are
(stereo)typically feminine?
Well in the most basic sense (according to a dictionary) a man is an adult human male while a woman is an adult human female. Except those definitions can't be the end all be all can they? or I mean none of us would be on this site. Sites like this wouldn't even exist.
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
The sexes do exist for a reason IMO, they're not totally intangible things, because if they were no different and they all did the same things just as often, there would only be one sex to begin with, ya know?
Well they are different. AFAB people have XX chromosomes while AMAB people have XY chromosomes. You are confusing genetics/biology (what our make up is) with personality (who we are and what we like)
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
Maybe. I'm trying to wrap my head around dysphoria that is completely isolated from any specific cause but I guess it just still doesn't make sense to me. Dysphoria is something I experience because my birth sex tangibly prevents me from doing the things I enjoy, expressing my natural personality, etc. and forces me to be something to other people that I'm not. When someone tells me I can't wear makeup and I should cut my hair because I'm a "guy," I feel sad. When someone tells me I need to be more assertive because I'm a "guy," or I shouldn't be anxious, or I should be interested in girls, or sports or whatever, I feel sad. And when this happens consistently as it does, I notice a clear pattern and realize that I fit the mold of a girl much better and as a girl am much more able to be myself and express myself and be seen as I really am.
When I made the decision to transition it had nothing to do with what I liked to do (I like a mixture of feminine and masculine things) but all to do with the fact that I didn't see myself as a woman at all. No one ever said, "you shouldn't do this/should do this because you are a girl", I just knew my body was wrong. Is that how you felt or did you simply transition to not have to deal with the stigma of being a "guy" who likes girly things? I'm not judging at all, I'm just genuinely curious, because that is almost what it sounds like you are saying.
Quote from: pretty on April 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
Well, of course I understand transition itself. I totally get what you mean by the metaphor. What I do have trouble wrapping my head around is what would make someone want to transition even though their first pair of shoes fit better. I mean, I am not sure about FTMs but the a lot of people in the MTF forum have for the most part had pretty successful male lives. On the MTF forum there are business owners in male-dominated fields, with wives and several children and a bunch of guy friends, etc. As someone who really never got past the start line in the male world, it's strange.
And while I am absolutely not saying they should be kept from transition or something if it's what they want, I wonder, what makes them want it in the first place if they ran so fast and so well in their old shoes? And do the new ones really even fit?
It's pretty easy to look in from the outside and say "wow your life as a man is perfect you have a wife/kids/business/friends/etc, why would you ever want to transition and be a woman?!" when you don't know the internal struggles they may have in the past or present be facing.
btw the OP is wrong about brain scans showing this. that particular part of your brain cant be imaged and they have to dissect you after you die to see it.
Quote from: Andy8715 on April 07, 2012, 10:21:49 PM
It's pretty easy to look in from the outside and say "wow your life as a man is perfect you have a wife/kids/business/friends/etc, why would you ever want to transition and be a woman?!" when you don't know the internal struggles they may have in the past or present be facing.
This.
I started full-time as Connie two days (9/16/2011) before my 23rd and final wedding anniversary (9/18/2012). My ex-wife and I did go out to dinner that night and we celebrated what we had in terms of romance and marriage, and looked forward to what we'll continue to have in terms of friendship. My full-time date will forever in my mind be linked to this last anniversary. Our divorce became final as of 8 February 2012.
For me, and I think for many, transition comes with sacrifice. And for me, those sacrifices have been necessary, however bitter they seemed at the time.
Quote from: anibioman on April 07, 2012, 11:19:58 PM
btw the OP is wrong about brain scans showing this. that particular part of your brain cant be imaged and they have to dissect you after you die to see it.
emil posted a pretty good comment a few pages back about research they are doing through brain scans with regards to brain "gender"
Quote from: emil on April 04, 2012, 10:44:28 PM
I'm referring to the exposure of a testosterone level higher than average, throughout a longer period of time, also during critical developmental periods, not just in the womb. It has been found that FTMs tend to have higher testosterone levels:
http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/4/1011.short
Hormones CAN in fact reshape the brain, throughout our lives, there has been research on that as well.
And there HAS been research showing "gendered" brain structures on scans, not just post mortem via brain slicing, so your information isn't up to date in that respect:
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/01/26/scans-show-difference-in-transgender-brains/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395610001585
Also, the brain-slicing findings only ever referred to MTFs:
http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/TRANSGENDER.pdf
Once you've read through this you will find out that transgendered person's brain might very well appear more "in between" than just simply "male" or "female" (ignoring for a moment that "male" and "female" as binary categories aren't well established at all when it comes to brains).
Quote from: Andy8715 on April 07, 2012, 10:21:49 PM
Do you feel that it's inconsistent when a cis woman like things that are (stereo)typically masculine or when a cis man likes things that are (stereo)typically feminine?
Again, no :), because they didn't pick male or female. How they are born says nothing about their identity except in an aggregate statistical sense. Technically a trans man is counted as a "cis woman" until they come out and transition.
Quote
Well they are different. AFAB people have XX chromosomes while AMAB people have XY chromosomes. You are confusing genetics/biology (what our make up is) with personality (who we are and what we like)
Well I'm not confusing them, they are related! Masculine and feminine personalities exist and are linked with male and female physiology for a reason, is what I meant. Like, men are on average bigger and stronger with faster reflexes and better focus. They also are more likely to have competitive, dominant personalities. The two go hand in hand because the male role we evolved with is as a provider and protector. Interests stem from the biology of it. It's why men like sports and violent video games more often than women, for example.
Quote
When I made the decision to transition it had nothing to do with what I liked to do (I like a mixture of feminine and masculine things) but all to do with the fact that I didn't see myself as a woman at all. No one ever said, "you shouldn't do this/should do this because you are a girl", I just knew my body was wrong. Is that how you felt or did you simply transition to not have to deal with the stigma of being a "guy" who likes girly things? I'm not judging at all, I'm just genuinely curious, because that is almost what it sounds like you are saying.
In a sense that is what I mean. In general though, I mean I saw that I am like a female in most of the ways where I am either masculine or feminine. Transition is just natural and makes sense for me. It makes it possible to be myself and be appreciated better for who I actually am. I don't look at myself and think, without any external factors, "I NEED to be a (man/woman)." I don't understand that kind of thinking when there's no real external motivation. I don't think it's normal for people to be that attached to their sex either. Really, if you ask people, a lot of them will start rattling off disadvantages to being their sex, even if they would never want to transition. Anyway, it's just what they are and their personality usually follows that to some degree :). When it's staunchly opposed to that, like for me, I think that is when transition makes sense and is a real quality of life issue even without "gender dysphoria". You just get tired of people forcing your square peg in a round hole that you don't even care for to begin with. Plus, yea, male hormones clash with my style.
Quote
It's pretty easy to look in from the outside and say "wow your life as a man is perfect you have a wife/kids/business/friends/etc, why would you ever want to transition and be a woman?!" when you don't know the internal struggles they may have in the past or present be facing.
True, I guess it is just hard to wrap my brain around since I just simply could never (or would have wanted to even try to) have that kind of excessively male life :-X but I guess it varies.
I guess some people shape the world around them, and some allow the world around them to shape them. It's definitely food for thought.
Quote from: pretty on April 08, 2012, 02:53:59 AM
I don't think it's normal for people to be that attached to their sex either.
I don't think most people actually are, unless their sex illicits feelings which are at odds to what the person is expecting. Then it becomes noticable. Sitting down and crossing one's legs on reflex only to find there's something in the way, which leads to an eye-watering, and disheartening realisation that it's not something you can do naturally with the equipment you currently have, for example. Or, on the flip side, being half asleep, wandering into the bathroom, and realising as you're clearing up the mess sometime later than you don't have what you should have in order to do things the way which feels natural to you.
When everything's where it should be, and doing what it should be doing, people tend not to notice and take it for granted. Only when it isn't, that's when a lot of folks become aware of it. At least that's my view. You don't pay much attention to your upper left molar until it starts aching and causing you discomfort. Then it's all you can think about. Whether that discomfort is physical, or mental, the result is the same.
Quote from: pretty on April 06, 2012, 03:04:41 PM
I don't really get your point :(
My point is that while there certainly does seem to be strong evidence (see emil's post that has been posted in quotes several times) that there are structural differences between the brains of those MAAB and FAAB and there's no question that different sex hormones have different effects on people's bodies and brains, there really is not enough evidence to claim there is a direct link between these things and specific behavioral patterns. You are making claims like men on average like sports more (or whatever) and that comes about due to biology. You can't actually back up that claim up. And pointing out a higher number of "masculine" trans women than cis women (and vice versa) based on your anecdotal observations is absolutely insufficient as evidence.
IMO, there's probably a constellation of contributing factors to how we become who we are. Doubt we need to hit every possible note to get here, and different combinations will probably tip the scales, or not, just the same. Some of them might (probably) be neurological. Some of the neurological factors might not even be sexually dimorphic, but aspects of the personality that leave the door open to it. Innately elevated of cross gender hormones? sure, even if all they do is set you apart from your peers, or give you a glimpse into what it might be like if things were different. I don't think "nurture" alone has much to do with it, but some events or trends might have some impact.
Ultimately, if the gatekeepers are still gatekeeping and they come out with some definitive anatomical test, they would have no legitimacy in my mind if they didn't run those tests on trans folks who had already transitioned before the tests were introduced, to compare statistically if the people who had already crossed over and were happy ALL were found to test positive. If they're content but test negative, there really isn't a problem, and I'd hope the gatekeepers would understand that they clearly aren't testing for everything.
Every single person that lives on this planet has experiences their gender differently than every other person. Same goes for most things we experience. There are plenty of things we have in common, and some things are more common than others, but no one can tell us who we are based on those things. They can only guess.