I'm from the pre-internet generation but I would like to know if there are any statistics regarding the amount of transsexuals before the invention of the internet and compared to the present transsexual generation? are there a lot of people jumping on the transsexual bandwagon?
I highly doubt there's any actual difference. Maybe a higher proportion was undiagnosed / didn't transition / were invisible from surveys for some reason before, but the rough number of transsexuals shouldn't have changed.
And anyway, I don't think there are many ancient statistics on transsexualism. It's only begun being really studied recently, and even nowadays, data is limited.
Quote from: A on April 03, 2012, 04:38:58 PM
I highly doubt there's any actual difference. Maybe a higher proportion was undiagnosed / didn't transition / were invisible from surveys for some reason before, but the rough number of transsexuals shouldn't have changed.
And anyway, I don't think there are many ancient statistics on transsexualism. It's only begun being really studied recently, and even nowadays, data is limited.
I hope the past is similar to the present but I know I struggled with my gender as a child growing up in the 1970's and wasn't able to access the help and information that is more readily available today. I knew what I needed to do back then but didn't know how to do it or how or where to get hormones or therapy. My only solution was to steal birth control pills
from girls I knew. It wasn't very effective or consistent and this may have been the case for many transsexuals unable to transition at the time they needed to transition.
obviously resources were harder to come by in small towns like the one I grew up in during the late 60's and early 70's when I was in my teens, all I could do was to be frustrated and just deal with it.
fast forward to the 90's and I had two close friends I followed thru "their" entire transition with, one was a very close coworker so I saw the day to day events starting with coming out to the company owners and coworkers all the way to SRS and a happy complete state of mind. She will always be a valuable source of inspiration to me!
For me at that time though I was married with kids and all I could do was help my friends the best I could, meanwhile keeping my "secret" to myself...sigh :(
Now with the internet and an understanding wife (not the same one) I have found so much support and information that yes...it has made it easier for me to finally be my true self!! I still have a ways to go but my state of mind is much better, especially since talking with the wonderful people here at "Susan's place"
Yeah, just try to find information in a small midwest town, in the 50's and early 60's.
:) sure, just go to the local library (located in the fire department building) and try looking up gender issues.
If there were statistics, I am confident they would show a higher percentage post internat inception versus pre. But like the other poster said, this would not accurately reflect that true statistics. According to survey's, there is a larger number of cisgender homosexuals now, than there was 50 years ago. Does that mean that more people are homosexual, or that most were in hiding, or suppressed their feelings.
And if you look at the timeline, you will notice that, in general, those who identify as homosexual, continue to do so at younger ages because of the social acceptance and understanding. Every new generation, individuals come out of the proverbial closet younger and younger. I mean, it's practically unheard of for a cisgender homosexual to come out as such past highschool.
Thankfully, I think we are starting to see this trend with us. I hope to live in world where I am considered a late transitioner because I started it in my mid-twenties.
Quote from: A_Dresden_Doll on April 03, 2012, 05:23:25 PM
If there were statistics, I am confident they would show a higher percentage post internat inception versus pre. But like the other poster said, this would not accurately reflect that true statistics. According to survey's, there is a larger number of cisgender homosexuals now, than there was 50 years ago. Does that mean that more people are homosexual, or that most were in hiding, or suppressed their feelings.
And if you look at the timeline, you will notice that, in general, those who identify as homosexual, continue to do so at younger ages because of the social acceptance and understanding. Every new generation, individuals come out of the proverbial closet younger and younger. I mean, it's practically unheard of for a cisgender homosexual to come out as such past highschool.
Thankfully, I think we are starting to see this trend with us. I hope to live in world where I am considered a late transitioner because I started it in my mid-twenties.
I think it is maybe a myth that late transitioners transitioned later *only* because there were less resources when they were younger.
Alexa's age statistics for susan's:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMhOrf.png&hash=6de486c76b91a05e549305c76108badc25d06200)
Why would 35-44 year olds be less common on susan's? Everyone has access to the same resources now and yet there are still more people transitioning in their late 40s-50s than in their 30s-40s.
And it is similar for other sites.
tsroadmap:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fwmd3p.png&hash=4bff1dca7e12c5745238cec1b18deb9e5748c683)
lauras-playground:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F5Xxww.png&hash=84fac34ecdd3eb218902d875799528e8a9a98590)
There are some exceptions in-between, but most transition either young or old, even with modern resources.
Statistics can be misleading.
Many who were born in the 40's and 50's didn't have support or information available. If (and I am saying if) they married out of love, expectations, family or whatever reason, and didn't really understand what TS was until they were in their 30's, 40's or 50's they had spouses and children to consider.
I know of many who waited out of a sense of duty until their children were in college before they considered transitioning.
So, going just by statistics gives suspect numbers.
There is no doubt that information on this was sketchy before the blossoming of the internet.
Why not just let people be people and stop worrying about when they transitioned.
Young, old, or in between is of little consequence.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on April 03, 2012, 06:28:31 PM
Statistics can be misleading.
Many who were born in the 40's and 50's didn't have support or information available. If (and I am saying if) they married out of love, expectations, family or whatever reason, and didn't really understand what TS was until they were in their 30's, 40's or 50's they had spouses and children to consider.
I know of many who waited out of a sense of duty until their children were in college before they considered transitioning.
So, going just by statistics gives suspect numbers.
There is no doubt that information on this was sketchy before the blossoming of the internet.
Why not just let people be people and stop worrying about when they transitioned.
Young, old, or in between is of little consequence.
Well the point was that trans information became widely available for
everyone, and yet even today, fewer people in their ~30s and 40s are transitioning than people in their 50s+.
I finally decided that I needed to acknowledge I was trans at 35. I am 38 now. Keep in mind that we may see some skewing of the numbers because a mid career transition can be financially ruinous. It is the age where a new job may be difficult anyway and if you add in being trans, perhaps people are afraid they will end up on the streets and that number is down for that reason instead of lack of information.
I didn't have access to the info I needed growing up. I was raised by my very controlling grandparents. They of course knew and actually took great pains to keep me suppressed. I was mocked at 4 when I told them I was a girl. I was severely punished around 5 for "playing with myself" because I kept working at that part trying to make it fall off. For my own safety I knew better after that than to ever mention anything to them again.
It took me 10 years of living away from them to shake their shadow enough to start figuring out who I was in general (not even trans specific).
I think Jeneva is on to something about the 30's and 40's demographic, at least for me those would have been the most dificult times to come out and transition, an excellent job at the time, fear of losing that and raising kids in a not so good mairrage all were my concerns even though I had dreamed at a young age that "someday" I would have the freedom to be able to socialize as who I really was vs just keeping it bottled up inside.
Now that the kids are 29 and 30, I'm mid 50's and relationship issues are good this is as good a time as any to express my self in "3D" :) the career thing is still and issue though.
Ehm, I personally think that the reason why the 25-45 tend to visit less transgender sites is that they are (statistically) too old and mature to need as much help or be in as much distress as the younger ones, but still not old enough to have a lot of free time to just come hang out and help people around, especially since it's an age range where career, family and children often intersect for very busy days. Plus, half of those people are old enough to not have been in contact with computers in their youth, and maybe the technology became popular when they were very busy with their non-computer jobs and/or family, resulting in them never actually taking the habit of using the Internet at home.
Might I also mention that both the 10-25 (very mildly) and the 65+ (very strongly) age ranges represent baby boom generations? So in the population in general, the 25-45's are a little underrepresented to begin with.
And everyone, please keep in mind that especially in a historical comparison, there is very little correlation between the number of transitioners and the number of transsexuals... There aren't more transsexuals in Thailand, for example; it's just that their culture being what it is, transition paths are more open, so either transsexuals tend to transition more, either non-transsexuals tend to transition more since it's somewhat valued over there. Plus, Asians tend to have it easier, physically, when they transition.
I'm sure there are some statistic's out there on the web. Speaking from my own experience, I had no idea what a transsexual was till around 16 and at 17 I came out and started transition. I knew I didn't feel right as a boy long before that but the resources just weren't available for me, we didn't have the internet where i lived and back then (90's) it wasn't as popular as it is today. The only info I had were from TV shows like Jerry Springer which didn't help like at all.
I lived as a gay femboy through my early teens then eventually we got the internet and I snooped around for awhile and heard other stories like mine. I guess I could have went to my local library and researched it sooner but to be honest I was afraid because of how shows like Jerry Springer portray transsexuals, I didn't want to be some freak like that.
I think it's alot more common now for young transsexuals to come out simply because the internet is widely available wether it's on your PC, your laptop, your i-pad, or your smartphone. Access to information is at your finger tips 24/7, this is the digital age after all! :)
I would fit the 25-35 age group when I first attempted to transition. That stat is low as well. The employment prospects were nearly as slim in the 70's post-Vietnam era as they are now. Michelle's observation was spot on for me at that time. I postponed my transition for better job prospects.
These days with the high profile jobs it is a good idea to clean up after yourself on the internet. Some prospective employers want to access your Facebook and Twitter accounts before being employed as mentioned on the local news last week.
Joelene
I recall some 'statistic' that had it, that transsexualism goes way up after some very stressful times.
Such as the baby-boomers after WWII be a very good example. BTW, I am, and stressful for the survivors it sure was.
The same might apply after some severe natural disasters, earthquakes, volcano blow outs etc.
If one would take all those females pregnant during that time it might just add quite a spike in the statistics of TS occurrences -if- the assumption of mother's stress related influence is a correct on.
My father left my mother during 3 - 4 month with one fell swoop - AND it was a very post-WWII stressful survival time.
So in this case it fits this argument. The other issue is the TIME/AGE of coming out.
Again... when one is deeply absorbed in 'survival issues' supporting a family etc. not much is left emotionally for any self-examination. Again, that was 100% my case too.
Will all this add up to any sort of statistic? Maybe.
- Lastly, we do not see ... what we don't look for! -
If one is so self-absorbed in other issues, WHO on earth will even try and figure out what this "girl inside" is all about... ?
We just suffer in silence and try to keep a lid on it all.
None the less the underlying issues have ALL been there to behold since usually age 4 – 8. But... our human ability to self-deception is most highly developed after all :-)
YMMV, as always,
Axélle
Pfft. The world didn't exist before the internet. Silly Blonde.
Of course there is more younger transitioners now. Also there is a lot of people just getting on the bandwagon.
as if the internet doesn't make it a million times easier to transition. I dressed before the internet but not being gay there was no way i would have thought transitioning was a feasable life path.
Quote from: Felix on April 05, 2012, 12:51:41 AM
Pfft. The world didn't exist before the internet. Silly Blonde.
BRAAAAP! There was info out there before. You can get it by reading the newspaper, perodic journals and the from the libraries. The newspapers back then had more useful info in their articles than we do now. There were a few articles about transsexuallity back then starting with Christine Jorgenson. The world back then had people communicating face to face more. There was more honesty because of the more face to face. Too many lies published today that are confirmed in the next issue!
Joelene
Quote from: Joelene9 on April 05, 2012, 01:20:03 AM
BRAAAAP! There was info out there before. You can get it by reading the newspaper, perodic journals and the from the libraries. The newspapers back then had more useful info in their articles than we do now. There were a few articles about transsexuallity back then starting with Christine Jorgenson. The world back then had people communicating face to face more. There was more honesty because of the more face to face. Too many lies published today that are confirmed in the next issue!
Joelene
I was just teasing. You know I'm an academic and a luddite, right? The internet and I are still eying one another warily. :)
The internet has certainly made it easier for people to find out what is 'wrong' with them, and I think we see that reflected by young people joining this group. Certainly when I realised I was female there were no resources to even explore what that meant.
Quote from: Cindy James on April 05, 2012, 03:32:53 AM
The internet has certainly made it easier for people to find out what is 'wrong' with them, and I think we see that reflected by young people joining this group. Certainly when I realised I was female there were no resources to even explore what that meant.
I'm old. I remember times before the internet. You remember - libraries, books, journals. I remember the DARPAnet.
I wanted to transition when I was 23 (in the mid-80s) but the world just didn't seem supportive enough to pursue it then, and I didn't know myself well enough to be confident enough to try anyway.
The thing that made the difference to me now wasn't the internet, it was meeting other trans people and recognising myself in them.
Quote from: Padma on April 05, 2012, 04:51:12 AM
I wanted to transition when I was 23 (in the mid-80s) but the world just didn't seem supportive enough to pursue it then, and I didn't know myself well enough to be confident enough to try anyway.
The thing that made the difference to me now wasn't the internet, it was meeting other trans people and recognising myself in them.
I'm only a couple of years younger than you are Padma and I agree with what you are saying regarding the lack of support in the 1980's. But when I first saw and met other trans people at a clinic it actually put me off as I assumed that trans people on HRT would look female and unfortunately these people didn't. I found it very upsetting. I also didn't see myself like them and I just wanted to get out of there.
Quote from: Felix on April 05, 2012, 02:20:26 AM
I was just teasing. You know I'm an academic and a luddite, right? The internet and I are still eying one another warily. :)
Hey Felix, I heard there's a website for Luddites.....but it's hard to log on because MS Internet Explorer still doesn't recognize cuneiform. But maybe there's an app for that; now where did I leave my ink pot and quill? lol
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 05, 2012, 06:48:18 AM
But when I first saw and met other trans people at a clinic it actually put me off as I assumed that trans people on HRT would look female and unfortunately these people didn't. I found it very upsetting. I also didn't see myself like them and I just wanted to get out of there.
This^.^
I'm confused. The hormones didn't work back then? They weren't taking them? I don't get it. Hugs, Devlyn
I believe the average for transition is going down. Older transitioners don't have as much chances to pass as well as younger ones... Especially in the earlier stages. More older people = less passability, in theory.
I see many 30-40-year-olds around here who end up passing very well... But in their first 3-6 months, many weren't even close to passing, whilst a similar proportion of their peers half as old as them were already very close to, or already passing.
Plus, I assume that people visiting a clinic often aren't very far into transition. The further in you are, the less often you visit the clinic, right?
Different people have different desires (and expectations) when it comes to transitioning and how they want to look (and expect others to look). Fortunately for me, I've never wanted to be feminine, I just want to be female. I wasn't ready to fight the world to make that happen when I was younger. Now I'm ready, and there's less fighting involved.
Quote from: A on April 05, 2012, 05:03:43 PM
Plus, I assume that people visiting a clinic often aren't very far into transition. The further in you are, the less often you visit the clinic, right?
Not necessarily, the clinic I went to had a support group for ts women and some of them have been going to it for many years and still look like a drag queens worst nightmare. :icon_yikes:
Quote from: MacKenzie on April 05, 2012, 05:19:55 PM
Not necessarily, the clinic I went to had a support group for ts women and some of them have been going to it for many years and still look like a drag queens worst nightmare. :icon_yikes:
Yes, that was my point!
As for Devlyn's point I'm not sure when 'safe' hormones came through. Estrogen was limited to pregnant horse serum I believe, and I'm not sure when AA's came into use. That said it was around 1963 when I came out very confused to my parents, and they in turn rejected my confusion with an equal quantity of confusion. No wonder I was confused.
Certainly as a 13 year old I had no where to find out was going on. Our at least no where I could think of going, particularly after being told by my parents that I was sick and sinful. But they knew no better.
There wasn't really much info available when I was growing up and I was scared to death to say much of anything :-\ I thought I would be alone in my darkness forever
I'm really glad to have the internet and a place like Susan's to come to and relate to other folks
I am also very thankful for the friendships that have developed
I was put in haverford state mental hospital as a child for wearing womens clothes. My neighbor was in there for being gay. Many in my era didn't know what to do and were dealt a negative blow by psychologist. However, i was fortunate to have been successful with some buildings i eventually built which earned me the ability to transition after selling them. I was 41 then. I had also two sons by 2 moms so i wasn't in a long lasting relationship which might have held me back. Oh during the early 60's i was able to have long hair as a hippie bt that also allowed me to wear womens clothes until i got caught and put away. I started transitioning and then got on the internet to meet others like me. That was in the late 90's. The other problem i had in the 70's and 80's was each time i went to the gender clinic on 8th street in Phila pa they told me i had to like men sexually. That detoured me and made me angry and confused. I had as a early youth seen the phil donahue show with transsexuals on it but they were not like what i thought myself to be. I was more like a hippie chick and not some stereotypical heterosexual female. I did have my first lesbian relationship in 1970 as a rnaway living at a lesbian gay commune in N . Calif called HOKAHEY up miller creek in southern humboldt county (pot growing capital of the USA)met a woman named mary who was older and was intimate with me but she didn't touch me below. I had long hair and felt like a lesbian. In closing there are too many variables for us to be concerned about statistics because ot them. ;)
I WWW aspects of the internet come on-line at the same time that treatment becomes widespread - so you are seeing a mirror image in a lot of ways.
First of all, are there ANY transsexuals before Christine Jorgensen? She was the first person to get both the SRS and the HRT, without either/both of those things in place isn't everybody just TG?
When I was 15 I knew gender transition existed in the real world, because one of my mum's fellow art students at college transitioned, and she told me about it. I already knew about it as a concept from all the fiction I'd been reading since I was a kid that just happened to have transition themes in it (Venus Plus X, Triton, The Marvellous Land of Oz...) - but round about the time I first allowed myself to know I wanted it, we were right in the middle of the first big anti-AIDS propaganda "blah blah gay plague" sickness that the UK went through alongside of AIDS, and all the hate just scared me off daring to be in any way visibly that different.
Quote from: Cindy James on April 06, 2012, 02:06:50 AM
As for Devlyn's point I'm not sure when 'safe' hormones came through. Estrogen was limited to pregnant horse serum I believe, and I'm not sure when AA's came into use. That said it was around 1963 when I came out very confused to my parents, and they in turn rejected my confusion with an equal quantity of confusion. No wonder I was confused.
Certainly as a 13 year old I had no where to find out was going on. Our at least no where I could think of going, particularly after being told by my parents that I was sick and sinful. But they knew no better.
What I read was that exogenous testosterone was available in the mid-thirties and estrogen was available in the early fifties. I don't have a source for that at hand, though.
Quote from: tekla on April 06, 2012, 09:32:52 AM
I WWW aspects of the internet come on-line at the same time that treatment becomes widespread - so you are seeing a mirror image in a lot of ways.
First of all, are there ANY transsexuals before Christine Jorgensen? She was the first person to get both the SRS and the HRT, without either/both of those things in place isn't everybody just TG?
Well, not e.g. in India where there was, still is the caste of Hijras who all have had their primitive version of SRS.
And if I have it right the same ''system" was used way back in Temple of the Sibyl Women... in ancient Rome.
Our Western Judeo/Christian culture was not up to any of it, that much I will concede.
Also, "plant phyto-hormones" would have been know in some form or another - that be my best guess though.
Axélle
So glad the internet helped me choice the right therpaist and such, and take care of myself before I got my prescription >:-)
very useful, feel bad for the past generations that couldn't
why kind of hormones would people like april ashley and cocinelle be taking back in the 50s and how would they have gained access to them