This is a support site. Anyone, transgendered or not is supposed to feel welcome here. Why then do so many members feel free to speak of men in dresses, Drag Queens, and Drag Kings like circus freaks? Why is it allowed? Ask yourself before you post "As a member of this support site, should I really be saying this?" Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn on April 05, 2012, 06:34:49 PM
This is a support site. Anyone, transgendered or not is supposed to feel welcome here. Why then do so many members feel free to speak of men in dresses, Drag Queens, and Drag Kings like circus freaks? Why is it allowed? Ask yourself before you post "As a member of this support site, should I really be saying this?" Hugs, Devlyn
I think this is good advice in all aspects of life, not just here on the forums.
It's ok to have a conversation. But you can't be condescending about it.
Yes. Disagreement or lack of understanding doesn't need to be expressed through disrespect, especially in the very place people come to safely be themselves.
I think a lot of the condescension is created by interpretation on the receiving end, even if it wasn't intended.
For example, the taboo " ->-bleeped-<-" word. There are actually people who self-identify as ->-bleeped-<-cs. But if you say the word for any reason even if you're not talking about anyone specific, or even if you're talking about a person who actually identifies as an ->-bleeped-<-c, people freak out and call you elitist and hateful because the existence of ->-bleeped-<- bugs them.
A lot of people here get easily offended for a lot of reasons that may have not even been intended to offend.
I don't think those groups are talked about like circus freaks that often? I see people say here all the time that there's nothing wrong with being a DQ or DK.
"Hi, I'm looking for tips. I want to look my best." or "Hi, I'm looking for tips. I don't want to look like some dude in a dress." Don't they both say the same thing? Isn't one hurtful to some people? Hugs, Devlyn
I always thought that respect is earned not just granted.
Quote from: tekla on April 06, 2012, 02:22:05 PM
I always thought that respect is earned not just granted.
Respect is earned, but so should disrespect have to be earned. Don't be so hostile/mean is more what I think Devyln is trying to say. A neutral statement is usually no harder and often even more useful to get feedback.
Actually, I thought it was pretty obvious that I'm not happy with the elitism creeping into the forums again. The Staff enforces the rules, but we the members set the tone. The guidelines say we should welcome everyone. Not rate them on the "trans" scale. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn on April 05, 2012, 06:34:49 PM
This is a support site. Anyone, transgendered or not is supposed to feel welcome here. Why then do so many members feel free to speak of men in dresses, Drag Queens, and Drag Kings like circus freaks? Why is it allowed? Ask yourself before you post "As a member of this support site, should I really be saying this?" Hugs, Devlyn
Nobody has a problem with drag queens/drag kings, we (trans women) just don't want to look like obvious man in a dress, that's not hard to understand is it? I'm pretty sure this thread is in response to Rubberneck's thread in the MTF section that got locked and in it I even suggested we make a drag queen section for the forums.
I can understand a statement like that causing some controversy in the crossdressers section or (if we had one) in the drag queen section but it was in the MTF section and i'm pretty sure that no mtf's want to look like a "man in a dress" but that doesn't mean we have a problem with other non-ts looking like that.
I think you took out of context the opinions stated in that thread. I apologize if my opinions offended you. :P
To me, there's a big difference between politeness and respect. I treat people politely until they give me a reason not to, but I don't respect them unless they give me a reason TO respect them. I express politeness outwardly and respect/disrespect both inwardly and outwardly, depending on the situation.
But I know what you mean.
MacKenzie, I'm happy to be me. I look like an obvious man in a dress though, don't I? A lot of people aren't hung up on looks. The concept of Susans is that all are welcome, not just those who pass well, or aspire to. Some here use "man in a dress" like a weapon. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: tekla on April 06, 2012, 02:22:05 PM
I always thought that respect is earned not just granted.
This is true, but in the context of the thread, I'm inclined to believe it's more about being sensitive to the effect your words and opinions could have on the people who read them; taking into account the type of site this is, its primary purpose, and people who frequent it.
In that regard, I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility for a bit of forethought before hitting the post button. There are ways of saying things and ways of saying things, both to get the same message across. Granted some people seem to revel in getting a rise out of others, and know full well what they're doing by being tactless and as blunt as a sledgehammer. This is usually pretty obvious.
Nontheless, generally speaking I think it's helpful to show a degree of empathy and sensitivity towards fellow forum members, regardless of the subject matter. After all, wouldn't we want the same thing for ourselves?
Quote from: Devlyn on April 06, 2012, 07:36:11 PM
MacKenzie, I'm happy to be me. I look like an obvious man in a dress though, don't I? A lot of people aren't hung up on looks. The concept of Susans is that all are welcome, not just those who pass well, or aspire to. Some here use "man in a dress" like a weapon. Hugs, Devlyn
I'm glad you're happy to be yourself Devlyn, accepting yourself is important to be truly happy in life.
QuoteI look like an obvious man in a dress though, don't I?
I don't know what you look like body wise but from your avatar i wouldn't think so lol. =P
QuoteA lot of people aren't hung up on looks.
Yeah but alot of us do take pride in our looks so please respect that, it works both ways.
xo
@ Sephirah, beautiful avatar tonight, hon! @ MacKenzie, if you feel I've been disrespectful, report me to the Staff. The button is right there. If you feel that I pass, get your eyes examined. If you think passing matters to me, get your head examined. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn on April 06, 2012, 08:56:50 PM
@ Mackenzie, if you feel I've been disrespectful, report me to the Staff. The button is right there. If you feel that I pass, get your eyes examined. If you think passing matters to me, get your head examined. Hugs, Devlyn
Ok that was just plain rude. :eusa_hand:
:police:
Okay, folks, let's try to be at least polite if we can't be respectful.
This is a support site, so let's be supportive.
Quote from: tekla on April 06, 2012, 02:22:05 PM
I always thought that respect is earned not just granted.
I don't agree with this. Respecting one another is an important part of being decent human beings and having a functional society.
I think that being polite is important for a high functioning society, but politeness and manners are personal (internal). It's your own behavior that controls them. Respecting others is a judgement however, a very high one and something that requires discrimination about the behaviors, thoughts, and attitudes of others (external).
Respect all is a lot like 'everyone's a winner' when in fact, that policy tends to be used most on people who never win. People who demand respect frequently need to demand it because without acquiescence to their demands they would never get any at all. Most of all, people who respect themselves rarely - if ever - require the respect of others. It's something that if you have it internally there is no need for it externally.
Quote from: tekla on April 07, 2012, 12:39:03 AM
I think that being polite is important for a high functioning society, but politeness and manners are personal (internal). It's your own behavior that controls them. Respecting others is a judgement however, a very high one and something that requires discrimination about the behaviors, thoughts, and attitudes of others (external).
Respect all is a lot like 'everyone's a winner' when in fact, that policy tends to be used most on people who never win. People who demand respect frequently need to demand it because without acquiescence to their demands they would never get any at all. Most of all, people who respect themselves rarely - if ever - require the respect of others. It's something that if you have it internally there is no need for it externally.
I dunno. I'm often not good at being polite and I've certainly never been mistaken for someone with manners, but I do try to have respect for everyone. I think as a species we're pretty interesting and as individuals tend to be equally deserving of positive regard. Usually. We might be just using different words for the same concepts, though.
This is one of those issues that I have also thought about.
If I relate it to others here, some of the language does seem rather blunt at times. I think I tried to raise it on a few occasions, possibly by thinking about the issues differently.
It was when I began to relate it to myself that it took on a rather different perspective.
The term guy in a dress is a presumption that a male is wearing a dress. But why should any male feel he can't?
We can think of George Cloony in a dress, for example. Or Sylvester Stallone. Our image is of these very male people, wearing women's clothes. But try to imagine, these men, or any other particularly male men wearing clothes that are simply different from the norm?
A good place to start is a kilt. Though it does tend to be associated with other notions of male assertiveness, beard for example.
Can I express who I am in my appearance? Can our society progress to the point where we can, express ourselves, with our appearance, without seeming to look as if we are faking or charactureing?
Many of us will remember a time when long hair on a man was an automatic indication of effiminacy. Yet short hair on a man was a military necessity, not a social one. One look at paintings of the American Founding Fathers, shows up a lot of long hair.
I've never heard of George Washington or Ben Franklin being referred to as drag queens.
I am as guilty as anyone else. I too have used the term "man in a dress", but I have used it to express how I do NOT want others to see ME. It never occurred to me that other people here would take it as a slight against themselves
Sorry Devlyn ...
It seems to me that both Tekla and Felix are right in certain ways.
To me, there is just a certain amount of respect that is due to persons simply because they are human beings. While I don't always succeed in showing this respect, I do make an effort. I feel that this is where basic manners and politeness figures into the equation.
Then there is the respect (or disrespect) that persons "earn" as a result of the external factors that Tekla mentioned. For instance, I have a great deal of respect for my Zen teacher that goes beyond basic human respect. (Of course, that in and of itself probably goes against some of the ideas behind Zen, but that's a topic for a different thread.) There are others whom I feel this extra respect for based what they've do or what they do for those around them.
Beverley, I'm not offended. I'm trying to stand up for every persons right to be themselves here without being used as whipstock. Sadly, I am armed with poor communications skills and a cellphone that limits my post length, so I frequently fail to get my point across. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Connie Anne on April 07, 2012, 10:10:57 AM
To me, there is just a certain amount of respect that is due to persons simply because they are human beings. While I don't always succeed in showing this respect, I do make an effort. I feel that this is where basic manners and politeness figures into the equation.
No one is perfect, we will all sometimes phrase things badly and unintentionally offend others. I'm sure I've done it a few times and I apologize to anyone that I have hurt unknowingly.
I would expand on this and say that Devyln has EARNED respect. Off the top of my head I can't remember ANY hostile comments and I have seen several very positive comments. Devyln seems to be genuinely trying to help and deserves respect for that. Thank you for all you have done for this community.
In contrast some of the users that promote the elitism and insulting of those not like them have actually earned my DISrespect. Some of those are even on my ignore list, but that is more a failure on my part than them. I feel that I cannot eloquently enough express the opinion that is needed to let them see the other side of the coin and understand the point I am trying to make so I have stopped looking at their posts because I don't waste their time and generate a hostile environment for others with attempts that are clearly not sufficient.
Yes, to me too, there is common respect or stranger respect as I often like to call it. That is granted just because they are another living being. And really, I try to respect everyone, but there are some that get a higher level of respect based on admiration and that's a bit more than common respect.
"Off the top of my head I can't remember any hostile comments." Well played Jeneva! Out of professional courtesy I will now wait while the Staff replaces their coffee, tea, or adult beverage soaked keyboards. I am guilty of posting vile, irresponsible things too. Padma calls them strafing runs. So I apologize to anyone I've offended. Especially the circus performers. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: pretty on April 05, 2012, 10:32:36 PM
I think a lot of the condescension is created by interpretation on the receiving end, even if it wasn't intended.
For example, the taboo " ->-bleeped-<-" word. There are actually people who self-identify as ->-bleeped-<-cs. But if you say the word for any reason even if you're not talking about anyone specific, or even if you're talking about a person who actually identifies as an ->-bleeped-<-c, people freak out and call you elitist and hateful because the existence of ->-bleeped-<- bugs them.
A lot of people here get easily offended for a lot of reasons that may have not even been intended to offend.
I don't think those groups are talked about like circus freaks that often? I see people say here all the time that there's nothing wrong with being a DQ or DK.
Yeah I agree, people get offended very easily and most of the time it's over something silly. This is the internet so I just take whats said with a grain of salt.
I don't wanna get completely off topic but regarding the ->-bleeped-<- thing yeah i've noticed that too. I think people on here freak out over it because they themselves fit into the ->-bleeped-<- mold and that makes them feel like a ->-bleeped-<- rather then a transsexual. What I don't like about Blanchard's theory is that he makes both sides HST & ->-bleeped-<- look like sexual perverts.
I've also noticed former homosexual men now straight trans women aren't really as welcomed here on Susan's as lesbian trans women are. Drag queens & drag kings are another touche subject.
People who take pride in their looks are kinda shunned as well and I don't understand why??? :icon_blink:
And If you say anything about the above you're smited/reported and put on a watch list or banned. Elitism?
Quote from: pretty on April 05, 2012, 10:32:36 PM
A lot of people here get easily offended for a lot of reasons that may have not even been intended to offend.
This is why I try to use open-ended words....maybe, could of, perhaps, in my opinion, I speak only for myself, can, etc.
Quote from: MacKenzie on April 07, 2012, 07:27:57 PM
I've also noticed former homosexual men now straight trans women aren't really as welcomed here on Susan's as lesbian trans women are. Drag queens & drag kings are another touche subject.
People who take pride in their looks are kinda shunned as well and I don't understand why??? :icon_blink:
Not at all, what gets people upset is when someone says that I am more trans than you because I'm straight or I'm prettier or I take more pride in their looks.
Have you not noticed that some of the posters against that judgement in those threads ARE straight or do take pride in their appearance? I actually do have a feminine voice, but I argued AGAINST making voice a criteria for transness in the fairly recent voice thread. I agree that we should, but if someone doesn't that doesn't give you the right to deny their life experiences.
It all boils down to no one should be allowed to label someone against their will. If you support ->-bleeped-<-/HSTS then you are saying that we are one or the other. Even though my narrative fits the HSTS except for one thing, that one thing (loving women) makes me ->-bleeped-<-.
You don't get to judge others. And all these comments like "well that is just how women are" are nonsense. It isn't all women who are like that, but rather it is shallow egotistical bitches. And guess what? A lot of us don't associate with people like that in our daily lives ON PURPOSE!
Quote from: Jeneva on April 07, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
Not at all, what gets people upset is when someone says that I am more trans than you because I'm straight or I'm prettier or I take more pride in their looks.
I don't see anyone insinuating that they're ->-bleeped-<-r then thou because of sexual preference or because they take pride in their looks.
I think your delusional. ???
Quote from: MacKenzie on April 07, 2012, 08:04:33 PM
I don't see anyone insinuating that they're ->-bleeped-<-r then thou because of sexual preference or because they take pride in their looks.
I think your delusional. ???
HSTS or "true" transsexuals vs ->-bleeped-<-
Sexual preference determines HSTS vs ->-bleeped-<-
Then yes if you support HSTS/->-bleeped-<- you are saying that a straight transwoman is a true transsexual, but a lesbian transwoman is not really a true transsexual.
That is plain simple fact and is not a delusion.
Quote from: Jeneva on April 07, 2012, 08:14:36 PM
HSTS or "true" transsexuals vs ->-bleeped-<-
Sexual preference determines HSTS vs ->-bleeped-<-
Then yes if you support HSTS/->-bleeped-<- you are saying that a straight transwoman is a true transsexual, but a lesbian transwoman is not really a true transsexual.
That is plain simple fact and is not a delusion.
This is the point I was trying to make about people getting all worked up over nothing, if you want the last word you can have it...
Just play nice, kids.
Don't deliberately try to offend anyone.
Don't take offense if there's even a remote chance the person didn't mean it that way. (If you think they did, report it. No sense in getting a case of "Net Rage")
Share...experiences, knowledge, opinions. And as we expect those to be true, please allow that other's EKO's are true, in as much as presented.
Now, shall I make some lemonade for everyone?
;)
sexual perverts is a term boring people invented to describe interesting people
Hello. kiddies. In order to stop childish squabbling, may I remind every one of Rule 10?
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real
than any others
No one's life experience, be it autogynephillic, gender-identity related, DQ, CD, DK, GF, gender queer, is any more or less valid than anyone else's.
"->-bleeped-<-r than thou" is not only meaningless, it is immature and moronic.
Robyn the Elder