I've been a bit curious about that. For those who don't know, complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is when the the body is unable to respond to androgens. It occurs in both sexes but the effects are way more significant in males, as the syndrome causes his body to develop as women. She will also develop female genitalia instead of male genitalia, as the condition has been with her since conception. They'll be infertile because they won't have a uterus.
All the XY girls on Youtube seem really happy with their genders, it makes me curious because I'm thinking that since their brain can't respond to androgens, they can't have a male gender identity. Thoughts?
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on April 06, 2012, 01:51:45 PM
All the XY girls on Youtube seem really happy with their genders, it makes me curious because I'm thinking that since their brain can't respond to androgens, they can't have a male gender identity. Thoughts?
If that were the case how do you account for MTF's who were AMAB and bodies that responded to androgens?
Almost everyone's bodies respond to androgens, just like almost everyone's bodies respond to estrogens. Everyone goes through a certain balance of both during development. An AIS woman wouldn't be able to respond to androgens, but she would respond to estrogens. This affects genital development, and since her mental development wouldn't be effected by androgens at all, I'm theorizing that it would be impossible for an AIS woman to be born with a male gender identity.
I'm sure there are some out there who ID as men. You just have to look.
Why are you sure? These people will never develop as men in any way we can see, they won't develop a penis, nor will they be affected by testosterone.
There have been a number of women on here over the years who are IS as well as TS. Rare concurrence, but it is bound to happen.
Like who?
Apart from a personal friend, there was Rejennyrated for a start.
Okay, I just read her old posts on Susan's via Google search. Her case was PAIS (partial). I have no doubts that people with other different types of AIS can also be TS, but if someone is CAIS (complete), I don't think it's possible.
Additionally she didn't have a male gender identity anyway.
One of my best friends was born AIS, I've known her for a long time. She has male XY chromosomes but was unresponsive to the testosterone shower that occurs at an early stage in the mother's womb. Given the fact that all human embryos begin as female, her system simply retained the female characteristics. She grew tall, 5' 9" and willowy. Her chest and shoulders were narrow as any females and she was extremely feminine. She showed me her genitalia once when we were in a hot tub and it was ambiguously more female as there was no penis or testicles although it was different. A few years ago she had it corrected by a SRS surgeon. She has never grown facial hair and has a high female voice. Unfortunately she has had an inner battle going on inside her sweet little head all of her life and has seen counselors off an on about it for years. I feel sad for her because I know it makes her miserable. She has always identified as female although she tells me that she thinks she should have been a man and somehow feels like a man in her brain at times. I don't use her name because she's an occasional poster here and I love her like family. Interestingly enough, there have been many notable runway fashion models who are AIS with XY chromosomes, they make perfect models.
Yes but she doesn't identify as a man, or not yet. Could it be possible that since she knows her body was suppose to develop as male, and that she feels some sort of guilt? I don't like to pretend I'm an expert and you know her better than I do, it's just that from my perspective, that's what it seems.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on April 08, 2012, 04:56:28 AM
Okay, I just read her old posts on Susan's via Google search. Her case was PAIS (partial). I have no doubts that people with other different types of AIS can also be TS, but if someone is CAIS (complete), I don't think it's possible.
Additionally she didn't have a male gender identity anyway.
Well, you say it well there.
PAIS I think it migth be possible if we agree that a prenatal hormanal bath might affect gender identity. Then maybe a PAIS person might develop a mal identity (who knows)
But then with a CAIS it would be a no-no (I dont know)
I believe the whole male brain/female brain thing is overrated. Is gender identity inborn to at least some degree? Yes. But to say it's brain sex is just another way of claiming 'biology is destiny', something that really harms the trans community.
Trista your right to suspect that something like that might be the case however it isn't.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272
This is a case of a FTM with CAIS, It certainly dose put a snag in that idea. Likewise they've done twin studies and it's unusual to have both twins with GID however it might be the case that the other twin shows atypical gender behaviour implying a societal/developmental element along with a potential genetic/invitro disposition.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on April 08, 2012, 02:51:35 PM
Yes but she doesn't identify as a man, or not yet. Could it be possible that since she knows her body was suppose to develop as male, and that she feels some sort of guilt? I don't like to pretend I'm an expert and you know her better than I do, it's just that from my perspective, that's what it seems.
Yes she does, and I have to continually remind her that it's not her fault, that she couldn't possibly be responsible for something that occurred in the womb that she had no control over. Although she is absolutely almost a savant when it comes to remembering numbers and analytical problems, she suffers from cognitive problems in other areas, has massive migraines, depression and self doubt. I don't envy her!
HERE'S (http://www.secondtype.info/ais.htm) a good informational place to start learning about "second type women" with AIS.
Quote from: Stealthy on April 09, 2012, 08:06:48 AM
I believe the whole male brain/female brain thing is overrated. Is gender identity inborn to at least some degree? Yes. But to say it's brain sex is just another way of claiming 'biology is destiny', something that really harms the trans community.
If biology is destiny, then why would you care? Cause like, it's just a part of your personality that's biological instead of from experiences, lolz, beyond that it's pretty much the same. Also I disagree I think it would help our community. :)
Quote from: Stealthy on April 09, 2012, 08:06:48 AM
I believe the whole male brain/female brain thing is overrated. Is gender identity inborn to at least some degree? Yes. But to say it's brain sex is just another way of claiming 'biology is destiny', something that really harms the trans community.
Lol since when is biology NOT destiny?
Come on, stop wriggling around in some illusion of magical free will. You are biological and everything you think is a 1:1 product of your biology. Biology IS destiny in every way.
Pretty, what you're saying right there is one of the major arguments used to claim we don't exist and we're just deluding ourselves, all because the things in our pants don't match our gender identity. I think I might've read a transphobe write those exact words once.
Quote from: Stealthy on April 10, 2012, 09:38:33 PM
Pretty, what you're saying right there is one of the major arguments used to claim we don't exist and we're just deluding ourselves, all because the things in our pants don't match our gender identity. I think I might've read a transphobe write those exact words once.
Why should it matter to me what a transphobe wrote? People call everyone a transphobe if they disagree with new-age unicorn gender roles.
Are you really gonna paint me as a transphobe while I'm transitioning? :D I don't hate myself THAT much.
Anyway, reality check, just because something someone says denies your identity doesn't mean it's automatically wrong. If life were that convenient I could walk around as a vampire :). I can't do that though. Not saying it's automatically right either, but I'm saying how much it validates your identity has nothing to do with whether or not it's right.
Second of all, and here's the important thing, when someone is transitioning, they're making a claim that they're a sex that they weren't born as, and asking people to treat them as that sex.
If there's NOT a medical basis for it, like, if that never actually happens physically, then it's not a very legitimate claim, is it? Not any more than saying "I'm a vampire, treat me like a vampire." And I really doubt even you would take that one seriously :D
You know, I don't set society's standards. And I'm not defending people who just want to deny someone's identity no matter how well it fits them just to be a jerk.
Still, like, you can say you have a problem with society's treatment based on sex. You can tell people they shouldn't treat a guy differently just because they're a guy. Or a girl differently because they're a girl. That's kind of a different issue than trans issues. But when you tell someone "I was born a girl but I'm a guy," or whatever, it's gonna silly if you look and act like a girl.
But anyway, actually paying attention to reality doesn't have to work against trans people. Because if you actually pay attention to reality, where men and women have actual differences in personality and interests and sexuality and stuff, and where some men are actually physically born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality and vise versa... then those people can't fairly deny your identity anymore than they could deny that a cancer patient has tumors.
And I went on way too long about this, because honestly I'm kind of in the "whatever" stage about it all, but sometimes I just want to ask this community like, "lol, really?" And I unfortunately have to exclude myself from those "we"s because again, I really have trouble fitting into this community as someone who actually believes it means something palpable to be "masculine" or "feminine." Like, I want to fit in here, but honestly I couldn't even take
myself seriously if I were transitioning after having a wife and five kids, a gigantic beard and a car demolition business or something.
Going back to the original question the answer is; (not necessarily in all cases!) There's a wide spectrum of those born with androgen insensitivity syndrome from partial to complete, the latter being a relative rarity. All are considered to be pseudo-hermaphrodites, they all have XY chromosomes. Some have a markedly female thought process and others, although living in feminine bodies from birth, have a markedly male thought process which is in continual conflict with what that individual's body and others around them is telling them. It's not a happy situation! There was a book written about this very thing by Jeffrey Eugenides entitled Middlesex. It is a really good read and although the author claims that it's not about himself, I suspect that it is about the life of one of his relatives.
Quote from: pretty on April 22, 2012, 04:37:46 PM
Why should it matter to me what a transphobe wrote? People call everyone a transphobe if they disagree with new-age unicorn gender roles.
Are you really gonna paint me as a transphobe while I'm transitioning? :D I don't hate myself THAT much.
Anyway, reality check, just because something someone says denies your identity doesn't mean it's automatically wrong. If life were that convenient I could walk around as a vampire :). I can't do that though. Not saying it's automatically right either, but I'm saying how much it validates your identity has nothing to do with whether or not it's right.
Second of all, and here's the important thing, when someone is transitioning, they're making a claim that they're a sex that they weren't born as, and asking people to treat them as that sex.
If there's NOT a medical basis for it, like, if that never actually happens physically, then it's not a very legitimate claim, is it? Not any more than saying "I'm a vampire, treat me like a vampire." And I really doubt even you would take that one seriously :D
You know, I don't set society's standards. And I'm not defending people who just want to deny someone's identity no matter how well it fits them just to be a jerk.
Still, like, you can say you have a problem with society's treatment based on sex. You can tell people they shouldn't treat a guy differently just because they're a guy. Or a girl differently because they're a girl. That's kind of a different issue than trans issues. But when you tell someone "I was born a girl but I'm a guy," or whatever, it's gonna silly if you look and act like a girl.
But anyway, actually paying attention to reality doesn't have to work against trans people. Because if you actually pay attention to reality, where men and women have actual differences in personality and interests and sexuality and stuff, and where some men are actually physically born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality and vise versa... then those people can't fairly deny your identity anymore than they could deny that a cancer patient has tumors.
And I went on way too long about this, because honestly I'm kind of in the "whatever" stage about it all, but sometimes I just want to ask this community like, "lol, really?" And I unfortunately have to exclude myself from those "we"s because again, I really have trouble fitting into this community as someone who actually believes it means something palpable to be "masculine" or "feminine." Like, I want to fit in here, but honestly I couldn't even take myself seriously if I were transitioning after having a wife and five kids, a gigantic beard and a car demolition business or something.
Not to be a nuisance or anything, but there are a few logical fallacies there. While very compelling as an emotional
opinion, in terms of 'reality', it's somewhat questionable.
QuoteIf there's NOT a medical basis for it, like, if that never actually happens physically, then it's not a very legitimate claim, is it?
That's a non sequitor. In order for that to work you would first have to be able to say with certainty that medicine knows, and has discovered everything it's possible to know and discover. Since you can't, the conclusion is really only a value judgement on whether you yourself consider it legitimate.
QuoteBut anyway, actually paying attention to reality doesn't have to work against trans people. Because if you actually pay attention to reality, where men and women have actual differences in personality and interests and sexuality and stuff, and where some men are actually physically born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality and vise versa... then those people can't fairly deny your identity anymore than they could deny that a cancer patient has tumors.
Well for a start you haven't defined what feminine/masculine personalities and interests and sexuality actually are. So you're using value judgements as fact.
But leaving that aside for the moment, it's another non sequitor. For the whole thing to hold water you first have to say that all women have innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality. Which you can't. So that goes on to make:
"some men are actually physically born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality"
Not actually relevant.
What you're getting at, is that since some men are born with innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality... that actually makes them women. And that hasn't been proven. Nor has it been disproven that people with innate masculine personalities and interests and sexuality
aren't women.
But, for the sake of argument, let's say that "all women have innately feminine personalities and interests and sexuality."
That would
still make the statement nothing more than correlation, not causation. That women with feminine personalities, interests and sexuality exist, and so do some men... that doesn't automatically make those men women. Or automatically make men without them
not women. All it proves, in this context, is that feminine/masculine personalities, interests and sexualites exist.
Which makes other people's denial of someone's identity not justifiable either way, at least not based on the above.
QuoteAnd I unfortunately have to exclude myself from those "we"s because again, I really have trouble fitting into this community as someone who actually believes it means something palpable to be "masculine" or "feminine."
By what you've said above, it appears you believe feminine = female and masculine = male. Since that isn't a fact which has been proven, only asserted by opinion and value judgements... while you're entitled to it, maybe accept that other people are equally entitled to theirs which may not agree with yours.
For example, some people believe that both men and women exhibit a balance of both masculine and feminine traits, neither one
in extremis.
QuoteLike, I want to fit in here, but honestly I couldn't even take myself seriously if I were transitioning after having a wife and five kids, a gigantic beard and a car demolition business or something.
That's your call. However not everyone is like you.
To presuppose that a woman can't have a car demolition business because it's not 'feminine' enough... well, this isn't 1912. :P And the desire for a family isn't something specific to any gender.
...
Sorry for that. However opinions are just that. And shouldn't be used to try and claim one thing, or viewpoint, or lifestyle is more 'right' than another.
Sephirah, I think maybe you read too much into my post, the point I was trying to make is that for you to be able to say "I am a woman, not a man" when you were clearly born as a man, you do have to be able to define what it means to be a woman for that to make any sense. Otherwise, what are you even claiming to be? You gotta define it.
I'm not trying to impose that definition on anyone... 'cause everyone has their own I guess. But then again, society has one too and it's society we all have to exist in. At the end of the day, if someone looks, acts, walks and talks how people are used to from women, that is what is going to get people to accept them as a woman. :)
Sorry if it's not a good reply but honestly I don't want to do the long back and forth thing. :)