Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
Well people talk about this sometimes and I always say...
I never had male privilege to begin with.
IRL I am shy and anxious. Also short and small. Sometimes people would call me smart in a patronizing sort of way. At most they would ask me to do things for them.
I never had a life as a male. It didn't even get off the ground. I didn't finish school, I didn't even go to high school, or enter the working world. The most recent I had a male friend, I was 11 years old and even then we didn't really get along. So I was never "one of the guys," and even though I fit in better with the girls they still looked at me as a male.
Overall it was a complete disaster and I couldn't handle male expectations, and they were plainly just wrong and crippling for me. I didn't have time to experience any privilege because I was too busy not fitting the expectations and stereotypes that come with that privilege.
My internet is acting up so going to type really fast in case it conks out, so don't get hung up on typos or grammar...
Male privilege has never been a concern for me and I've slowly worked at undermining it in my work scenario. I noticed that I was privileged in meetings for instance when it came to speaking and people accepting my ideas so I started to play the supporter of co-workers ideas. I spoke less and became more attentive. The other place that male privilege has been most obvious for me is as first born male, but truth is I have always been a bit of a disappointment in that regards (growing up my dad used to take me out on long walks to chat and usually inquire as to whether I was gay or on drugs! :o ) Neither, by the way although I suppose if/when I transition I would be a lesbian. As for 'strong male', well... I've never been that. I was always bullied growing up and had my sexual orientation questioned (by family, friends, and schoolmates).
In fact, the only male privilege that I did easily take on was being 6'2" and 250lbs... Now, I'm 6'2" and 180 which is much less intimidating at 40 yrs old.
Truth is, the 3 top things slowing down my full transition:
(1) I have young kids and although many say that under 5 year olds are fairly adaptable, I want to make things as easy as possible and if it will hurt them then I would rather suffer than them.
(2) I want my spouse to be truly comfortable (she has come a long way and now is fully on side and asking when I'm going to see the gender therapist).
(3) My family is my family and not a concern as they are what they are. But my wife's family are much older and more traditional, I don't want my decision to harm their relationship with her. This one is much more challenging and is a work in progress mainly through subtle changes right now so it doesn't seem like such a leap. Ultimately, I don't believe that my transitioning should harm others or their relationships.
So, my hang-ups are few, and have little to do with male privilege or myself. It is about others in my life that I value and care for deeply. I have thought at times it would be easies if I could do SRS, enough feminsation that I could see myself as myself, but not so much that others would have to be at risk or negatively impacted by my decisions. In the end, I know that it would never end there regardless and I would maximise everything but this then slows down the decision as I truly am trying to build my supportive network and bringing as many on side as I can.
No. I don't care to have any "male privilege" ... I have always hated every expectation of me to perform like a male, and that's what comes with it when people give you that privilege.
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
Not really, the only thing I was concerned with was my appearance as a woman. I know that sounds terribly vain but hey lets face it if your an ugly woman in this world life is gonna be tough and your gonna have to work your ass off just like a man.
Sad but true. :(
Male privilege can be a trap, especially if one is really a woman. You are expected to be all those things society thinks you should be, and that gets to be a drag on one's female soul.
Male privilege is not for this girl.. You can have my share anytime, Malachite.
And yes it kept me from starting a lot sooner, til I realized that I did not want or need it in the first place.
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
It didn't affect me wanting or not wanting to transition but I am amazed how much differently women are treated from men. Especially by men. I never was a "strong male" but men do get a pass on many things women don't, no matter how manly the man is or isn't. I was a super girly "man" for many years but still had "male privilege"
Again it's mainly how men treat women. Most now see me as helpless and dumb. I can't just go like buy a computer part without some guy trying to "help me" or question I know what I'm talking about. "You probably should let someone else look at this for you" is a common thing I hear now. They guys at the hardware store look at me like I'm crazy for asking for something like a plumbing part there. "Did your husband send you with a list?" :P Don't even get me started about dealing with car stuff as a woman lol. I have learned this is part of being a woman and just laugh when it happens.
And no, I'm not going to become helpless, weak and dumb to fit their stereotype/view of how women are.
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
honestly, i never cared for male privilege. I find the wonderful experiences of being treated like a woman far more rewarding than any male privilege I once had.
Also, I learn to adapt. For example, I chose a denomination that ordains women and see women as equals to men.
Also, I enjoy it when my bf opens the door for me, pays for our dates, etc. It's refreshing. I once had a die hard feminist transgirl who was once my friend call me weak for thinking like that. I promptly removed her from my life. I consider myself feminist too, but I do enjoy the "female privileges" too.
Quote from: Stephe on April 10, 2012, 11:10:46 PM
Again it's mainly how men treat women. Most now see me as helpless and dumb. I can't just go like buy a computer part without some guy trying to "help me" or question I know what I'm talking about. "You probably should let someone else look at this for you" is a common thing I hear now. They guys at the hardware store look at me like I'm crazy for asking for something like a plumbing part there. "Did your husband send you with a list?" :P Don't even get me started about dealing with car stuff as a woman lol. I have learned this is part of being a woman and just laugh when it happens.
And no, I'm not going to become helpless, weak and dumb to fit their stereotype/view of how women are.
Sorry but, I extend the stereotype on those things. IDK nothing about most of that stuff. I know a lil about computers but not much. At the hardware store I'm always asking what I need to look for. Car stuff? Forget it lol.. I know where the engine is and I can change the air filter. Anything else and I get time it lube to deal with it :P
I can pretty much say that I didn't even have it. No need to rehash the same story as others, But all in all, not much has really changed for me.
I miss getting beaten up, shamed, ridiculed, rejected, laughed at, spit on--yeah, I had to give all that up.
The only thing I'll eventually miss is being able to pee standing up, when needed.
Quote from: Michelle. on April 11, 2012, 12:36:37 AM
The only thing I'll eventually miss is being able to pee standing up, when needed.
hahaha!! No joke. Not looking forward to mastering the hover.
I never took note of "male privilege" as such – and if it was inferred -that I had such- it only made me crinch, or feel sort of uncomfortable.
Like: "No, not ME please!"
The only privilege I "took out" for myself was to become girlie, yet chauvinistic after my divorce some 32 years ago.
It was more a case of dealing with my jealousy of not being who I ultimately knew I was – female. So my "male privilege" was to make an ass of myself, plenty of times.
Now... it is a bit like in the movie "Switch".
I often think about the irony of it all. Though it does not change in any ways the fact, or situation, my being female.
I have a son who has now a lovely young daughter – I may not see much, if any, BTW.
According to "Switch" I now may die in peace... oh well.
I do hope to have some time left to do that still, - yet the parallels are quite startling.
Now so much for "male privige" hum.
Axélle
PS: having a pee standing up a privilege... honey you gotta be joking!
Much prefer to squat - just my take, and as always YMMV
I don't remember where I heard this phrase, but it seems to express how I feel about "male privilege:"
"It is better to be hated for what you are than to be liked for what you are not."
If I were given "male privilege," it would not make me feel good.
There are so many definitions of male privilege that it becomes a bit difficult to approach.
Before I start I think it is an interesting and intelligent question to ask.
I never had male physical privilege but that can be overlooked by other males if they think you are one of the group anyway, it just means you will never be 'alpha' in the group but few are and that dynamic is fluid among male groups. A sports person will always be more alpha than any other in the group etc etc.
Male privilege in society I always find difficult to define. This is very society based, in Australian western society I'm not sure if there is a lot of male privilege granted to men by woman.
Male privilege of not doing stuff around the home is still a problem, but I think decreasing where I live and I think that is a generational thing. I find men want to spend time with their children, take them out shopping etc and live a home family life.
Bizarrely, I think there is female privilege that we don't want to give up. I like looking after my home and it is my 'nest' and I'm proud and happy with it.
At work, OK I'm an odd ball, in my profession intelligence, retentive memory and experience is everything. Gender doesn't matter at all.
Which is something that doesn't always go down well with professionals joining from other countries that have male privilege.
Cindy
"Male privilege" got me hypertension, heart bypass surgery, and a series of mini-strokes.
To hell with "male privilege."
I was getting female privilege in return, believe me, a lot better.
Male privilege didn't suit me in the first place
I was talking to a friend today and this topic came up. As far as I can see it is something that is taken, not given.
And, in my case, the privilege of bullying me without fear of suffering any consequences by whatever the "powers that be" were at the time.
Karen.
TBH, I remember distinctly being forced down gender roles as a kid.
I used to want to help out in the kitchen and I was banned.
I guess dealing with trades, here in Aus, if you're not a bloke the tradies can talk down to you.
What I've found incongruent for me always is the guy talk about girls, cars, and sex (not always in that order *lol*) - I can blend in like a chameleon, but have always felt like a spy.
I didn't really notice my "male privilege", and to be fair it wasn't much of a loss - if I ever had male privilege to begin with. I certainly didn't notice it, and life isn't any different these days....
None of the other fun aspects of being a male are missed, and they didn't come close to being so much as thought of, as far as holding me back goes. Being strong and dominant was never me... although, it is moreso now than before, as I feel stronger on Estrogen (as a person). :)
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
The question doesn't relate to me. I was never a strong dominant male and always assumed a female persona. I would never want any 'male privilege' and the thread poster assumes that all transsexuals are full on red blooded males before they transition which is a very shallow and nieve viewpoint.
As far as I'm concerned the idea of 'male privilege' and 'female privilege' are both misnomers, since one doesn't have to be male to have so-called 'male privilege' or female to have so-called 'female privilege'. At least not going by some of what's been said here. Because of that, I'm not at all convinced that been seen as a man or woman plays as big a part in either attitudes as a lot of folks like to believe. And largely because of this, as yardsticks by which to measure oneself... well, to me they're both pretty much irrelevant.
Perhaps 'dominant' and 'submissive' are nearer the mark in terms of how people are treated than 'a man' or 'a woman'. I've seen dominant, sometimes physically imposing cis women be treated with more 'male privilege' than any men, with all of the 'stereotype boxes' ticked several times over. And also the reverse with cis guys. I don't think it was anything to do with their sex, or gender, but with their personality type, attitude to life, and a sense of gravitas or presence.
As for myself, I don't think I've ever really been treated with any sort of 'privilege', or if I have I wasn't aware of it. So to answer the question - concerned about losing male priviledge? Not even slightly. But to go one step further - am I concerned about gaining female privilege? Again, not in the least. My philosophy is just to live life true to yourself and who you are, and let other people think what they like.
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
Yes, absolutely. I spent the bulk of my life striving to meet expectations and standards that revolved entirely around competitive endeavors steeped in, often stereotypical, male activities. Walking into a room, sizing every other male there up with a critical eye, military service, extreme sports and recreational activities, martial arts...it's a long list of "Look at how manly I am, rawr!" behavior.
In retrospect, I'm aware that embracing all of these things to the degree I did was an effort on my part to ignore/discount the conflict I was feeling inside. I spent a lot of time engaged in ridiculously exaggerated behavior to convince myself I was a "mans's man." Falling back into those patterns as a fear reaction when I've dipped my toe into the honestly pool in the past 100% accounts for the false starts I've experienced on my path to transitioning.
I found comfort in what I knew, what was expected of me and some solace in how that reinforced other people's perception of me. At the same time, I was tearing myself apart inside denying the thing I was so horribly terrified of, shoving the potential shame and fear of judgement down with testosterone-fueled insanity. I don't even like bungee jumping, it scares the ->-bleeped-<- out of me, and yet there I was....
Whoops. ;p
I kind of feel those overblown behaviors were a serious crutch that I hid behind. They lowered people's expectations of me where expressing my feelings and honest emotional investment were concerned. I took "Hulk Smash/Mongo Like Candy" and tweaked it enough to hide behind effectively. For a while, at least.
I don't miss being perceived that way at all, don't miss the pressure to be "that guy" and I sure as hell don't miss the exhausting effort it took to maintain that facade.
-Miki
I probably did get a little of it where work was concerned, but mainly due to the fields I worked in in the past. Otherwise, not really. I think too much was expected of me that I couldn't do or be and often how I was perceived by others likely lowered whatever privilege there was.
And really, I'm not big on throwing the whole privilege thing around. Its used too often to attack people that probably don't even utilize it all that much to their advantage and really, its just attacking someone simply for who they are or what they were born as. And to me, that just seems hypocritical.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 11, 2012, 09:14:22 AM
The question doesn't relate to me. I was never a strong dominant male and always assumed a female persona. I would never want any 'male privilege' and the thread poster assumes that all transsexuals are full on red blooded males before they transition which is a very shallow and nieve viewpoint.
This is NOT what he said or implied in any way shape or form. "male privilege" is GIVEN to anyone presenting as male. You can't say "I don't want it". No one said anything about being alpha male or strong/dominant. That has absolutely nothing to do with what this term means.
So before we all start personally attacking the OP, maybe try learning what the term even means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege)
"Male privilege is a sociological term that refers quite generally to the special rights or status granted to men in a society, on the basis of their sex or gender, but usually denied to women."
You were GIVEN this status for being male without your permission require or allowed. Unless you pass as female, you HAVE this status.
"The term "male privilege" does not apply to a solitary occurrence of the use of power, but rather describes one of many systemic power structures that are interdependent and interlinked throughout societies and cultures."
I know it's all proper in TG circles to deny you ever had this but unless you never presented as a male, ever, than you had male privilege until you did start to pass as female.
And for anyone who wants to pretend this doesn't exist, go over to the middle east as a woman and see if you still think men don't have rights not granted to women as an example of how extreme this can get.
Quote from: Jaime on April 11, 2012, 11:16:19 AM
I think too much was expected of me that I couldn't do or be and often how I was perceived by others likely lowered whatever privilege there was.
OK I'm not picking on you specifically but this is not what male privilege is. It has nothing to do with "acting like a man" or being strong/dominant. It simply the special considerations that are given to males that are not extended to women. Assumptions that are made based on the perceived sex of the person.
It's no different than a person who is racially discriminated against knowing they never met the stereotype. It doesn't matter, they either will be discriminated against because of this racism by some people or they will be given a pass because they aren't of that race. I have never actively taken "white privilege" (acted like a white racist bigot) but to try to claim I never have benefited from being born white would be delusional. It's not right that these privileges exist, but it just is reality.
I want to kind of respond to the general tone of the replies...
Okay, to the OP, I first wanted to say that my reply was not denying the existence of male privilege. 'Cause I know it exists and I know FTMs feel what it's like to not have it. And a lot of men don't even realize they have it.
Male privilege is a lot of little things. I know a lot of MTFs here have had careers in male-dominated fields so I think it would be hard to say there was a lack of male privilege there. Maybe they don't understand that male privilege could have had something to do with just being taken seriously and getting in the door. Women struggle through even the college courses to get those degrees, because of how they are treated. Even today.
So yea, I really don't want to throw my hat in with the "male privilege doesn't exist" sentiment. I only say that male privilege didn't affect me because I had pretty much no academic or professional life. I never functionally or meaningfully lived as a male. Otherwise, it would have affected me.
And then on the other hand, I do want to reiterate to FTMs that there are real cons associated with being seen as a male. At least for a female-minded person. I notice these a lot especially because I had a sister and could pretty easily see the difference in how we were treated by family and friends of family. And it was very depressing.
So for an MTF who knows from an early age who and what they are, it's hard to really look at male privilege as an overall benefit when their condition makes them feel so negative about how they are treated how they are seen by other people all the time. Male privilege is most useful to men, or people who live like men. Men will hardly feel privileged when learning how to sew dresses, buying makeup, expressing emotion, etc.
Quote from: Stephe on April 11, 2012, 12:35:48 PM
OK I'm not picking on you specifically but this is not what male privilege is. It has nothing to do with "acting like a man" or being strong/dominant. It simply the special considerations that are given to males that are not extended to women. Assumptions that are made based on the perceived sex of the person.
It's no different than a person who is racially discriminated against knowing they never met the stereotype. It doesn't matter, they either will be discriminated against because of this racism by some people or they will be given a pass because they aren't of that race. I have never actively taken "white privilege" (acted like a white racist bigot) but to try to claim I never have benefited from being born white would be delusional. It's not right that these privileges exist, but it just is reality.
I'd just add that those assumptions/perceptions can influence behavior significantly. Feeding into them can be a result of certain types of perceptions being easier to roll with than others.
I agree, it is a passive thing to be sure, but expressed behavior can either contradict or reinforce those "special considerations" on a daily basis. In my case, the reinforcement fed into the second part of the OP's question.
The OP asked about two distinct things shifting: Male privilege
and the perceptions of being dominant. :)
-Miki
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
are you kidding me??? I wanted female priviledge. Men got blamed for everything and anything and when it came down to who do they believe it was always the woman. There ain't no such thing as male priviledge. Except for maybe earning more money..
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
I hated 'male priviledge', the priviledge to be treated with suspicion, expected to be a jerk, blamed for everything and have all your achievements written off is not worth having. I'm much happier with my female priviledge.
Quote from: Stephe on April 11, 2012, 12:35:48 PM
OK I'm not picking on you specifically but this is not what male privilege is. It has nothing to do with "acting like a man" or being strong/dominant. It simply the special considerations that are given to males that are not extended to women. Assumptions that are made based on the perceived sex of the person.
It's no different than a person who is racially discriminated against knowing they never met the stereotype. It doesn't matter, they either will be discriminated against because of this racism by some people or they will be given a pass because they aren't of that race. I have never actively taken "white privilege" (acted like a white racist bigot) but to try to claim I never have benefited from being born white would be delusional. It's not right that these privileges exist, but it just is reality.
I had a lot of characteristics and behaviors that affected how people perceived me. I stated that in my post. I do think the way they perceived me did have some affect on how much male privilege I was afforded. I was not treated the same, most often I was treated like a tomboy and even somewhat protected by some, so I didn't usually get direct bullying or anything. I know what male privilege is and honestly, the whole deal with privilege has gotten old and tiring to me. It seems that one group of people are always whining about privilege being given to another group while just as often it comes across as pure jealousy over what they perceive as an advantage whether it really is or not.
Anyway, I'm done with this topic and I have to go to work.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 10, 2012, 10:17:20 PM
No. I don't care to have any "male privilege" ... I have always hated every expectation of me to perform like a male, and that's what comes with it when people give you that privilege.
LOL so true and i really shouldn't LOL because it sucked..
Quote from: Kahlan Amnell on April 11, 2012, 12:19:40 AM
I miss getting beaten up, shamed, ridiculed, rejected, laughed at, spit on--yeah, I had to give all that up.
Ditto or have your legs spread open by some guys and run into a light pole.. damn that hurts..
Quote from: Michelle. on April 11, 2012, 12:36:37 AM
The only thing I'll eventually miss is being able to pee standing up, when needed.
I rather sit its more comfortable... the only issue i had was when campaigning for Obama in NH i couldn;t find one and peed myself a few times i always brought extra pants and eventually got a diaper
Yes i had a Urinary Tract infection
I really just hate the assumption of all males automatically getting a cake walk. Primarily only alpha males benefit from male priviledge, beta males suffer most of the same issues as women and it's considered okay to crap on them because they're men, so they must have it easy. ::)
It's a lot less overt, at least in my middle-class, white, progressive, privileged part of the world, than it has been in the past. So to be honest it's difficult to even recognize all the changes.
But I miss not getting stared at in public - I never have the option to just be invisible anymore. I find it irritating that I have to push twice as hard to get a point across with some people. I don't like that my chances of reaching the upper echelons of my profession have been drastically reduced; or the quiet condescension that I get from older men and women when they realize how clever I am; or that I have to be a lot more careful when I'm out at night alone; or the exaggerated courtesies I get from strange men.
However, it never even crossed my mind to worry about when I transitioned. And it is a marginal price to pay for breathing.
Weirdly, I kinda prefer the disadvantages. Like Arctic Kat said, "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be liked for what you are not." The loss of privilege is validating in a really ->-bleeped-<-ed kind of way.
And by the by, I was perceived as a femme-y gay guy pre-transition. Yes, it curtailed my privilege somewhat and I ended up in some difficult situations - because of heterosexism - but it's still different from being perceived as female.
Quote from: Skyanne on April 11, 2012, 12:57:08 PM
I really just hate the assumption of all males automatically getting a cake walk. Primarily only alpha males benefit from male priviledge, beta males suffer most of the same issues as women and it's considered okay to crap on them because they're men, so they must have it easy. ::)
Ditto male priveledge came in a second and was gone the next after some other guy came around.. Thats why i was so sensative to women's feelings..
also i hated my own male sexuality .. that was surely no priveldge.. imagine having to do it 3 times a day for yrs since puberty... nooo way .. thankfully that crap is goneeeeeeee
Quote from: Sarah7 on April 11, 2012, 01:01:55 PM
It's a lot less overt, at least in my middle-class, white, progressive, privileged part of the world, than it has been in the past. So to be honest it's difficult to even recognize all the changes.
But I miss not getting stared at in public - I never have the option to just be invisible anymore. I find it irritating that I have to push twice as hard to get a point across with some people. I don't like that my chances of reaching the upper echelons of my profession have been drastically reduced; or the quiet condescension that I get from older men and women when they realize how clever I am; or that I have to be a lot more careful when I'm out at night alone; or the exaggerated courtesies I get from strange men.
However, it never even crossed my mind to worry about when I transitioned. And it is a marginal price to pay for breathing.
In a weird way, I kinda prefer the disadvantages. Like Arctic Kat said, "It is better to be hated for what you are than to be liked for what you are not."
And by the by, I was perceived as a femme-y gay guy pre-transition. Yes, it curtailed my privilege somewhat and I ended up in some difficult situations - because of heterosexism - but it's still different from being perceived as female.
I'll agree i don't like unwanted advances from males.. thats why i dress down androgenously... and gaining some weight has made me less attractive to males and living in the country away fropm cities has made for less chances of attacks.. so yes not all womens priveledges are perfect either.. but i am much more happier now.. anybody says anything i show them my female ID and they back off because males are afraid of women who might scream or blame them for anything..
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 11, 2012, 09:14:22 AM
The question doesn't relate to me. I was never a strong dominant male and always assumed a female persona. I would never want any 'male privilege' and the thread poster assumes that all transsexuals are full on red blooded males before they transition which is a very shallow and nieve viewpoint.
you completely and utterly missed his point.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 11, 2012, 09:14:22 AM
The question doesn't relate to me. I was never a strong dominant male and always assumed a female persona. I would never want any 'male privilege' and the thread poster assumes that all transsexuals are full on red blooded males before they transition which is a very shallow and nieve viewpoint.
1. "All" can be a very dangerous term which why I don't use especially when referring to groups of people.
2. You are assuming that I assume that "all transsexuals are full on red blooded males before they transition". That is a statement I do not believe in so your assumption is false.
Btw, I would assume that most people do have red blood running in their system before they transition.....at least that's what the labwork says. :)
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
Very intersting question Malachite. I enjoyed and was surprised by the responses. I am going to be frank and perhaps blunt, and I apologize if I sound arrogant, but I am just sharing my memories and experiences.
You know the guy all girls want to date? That was me,
You know the guy who was the best athlete/fighter in the school? that was me
You know the guy who was always good at everything? that was me...you get the idea
Yes, as an alpha-male, you get used to -and expect- people to pay attention to you, and to give you what you think you deserve. So, I persued a technical career with a people-to-people interaction angle; and yes, to get ahead of the rest, you have to be aggressive and assertive, but as a white male, you do have an advantage, and you do enjoy benefits. I always had a "dominant strong male" mentor coaching me.
The flip side of the coin is that much is expected from you, from family, spouse, friends, bosses, and coworkers. So, to retain those privilege you have to deliver the goods baby! This not only means money, but protection, psychological support, etc, etc, etc
So what happened to me when I dropped the "male" role? Well, nothing ! I just went went from "dominant strong male" to "dominant strong female."
Quote from: peky on April 11, 2012, 01:39:06 PM
Very intersting question Malachite. I enjoyed and was surprised by the responses. I am going to be frank and perhaps blunt, and I apologize if I sound arrogant, but I am just sharing my memories and experiences.
You know the guy all girls want to date? That was me,
You know the guy who was the best athlete/fighter in the school? that was me
You know the guy who was always good at everything? that was me...you get the idea
Yes, as an alpha-male, you get used to -and expect- people to pay attention to you, and to give you what you think you deserve. So, I persued a technical career with a people-to-people interaction angle; and yes, to get ahead of the rest, you have to be aggressive and assertive, but as a white male, you do have an advantage, and you do enjoy benefits. I always had a "dominant strong male" mentor coaching me.
The flip side of the coin is that much is expected from you, from family, spouse, friends, bosses, and coworkers. So, to retain those privilege you have to deliver the goods baby! This not only means money, but protection, psychological support, etc, etc, etc
So what happened to me when I dropped the "male" role? Well, nothing ! I just went went from "dominant strong male" to "dominant strong female."
you alpha peeps.. and i could never understand a successful person transitioning.. seems like a total choice verses a desire/need for survival...
myself i have stayed single and celibate for the last 14 yrs post op to allow my inner child a chance to regrow into the person i am today which i have grown to love as i see other good healthy people who also love me here where i live..
going from adult male to adult female baffles my mind..
Quote from: Jaime on April 11, 2012, 12:48:18 PM
It seems that one group of people are always whining about privilege being given to another group while just as often it comes across as pure jealousy over what they perceive as an advantage whether it really is or not.
Go tell that to the women in Afghanistan.
Quote from: Amazon D on April 11, 2012, 01:53:50 PM
you alpha peeps.. and i could never understand a successful person transitioning.. seems like a total choice verses a desire/need for survival...
What does being "successful" or not have to do with GID and needing to transition? Does someone have to be homeless, beat up and bullied to "need" to transition?
Are only weak, shy, introverted people allowed to do be women? Sorry but I am the same strong, dominant person I was before I transitioned. I boss people around and expect to have people listen to me. And mostly they do. This whole -you have to be weak, shy and demure if you're a woman- is a sickening stereotype and an insult to every woman on the planet. If what most of you gals have posted here is true, people like Hillary Clinton are men!
Quote from: Stephe on April 11, 2012, 02:32:58 PM
I boss people around and expect to have people listen to me. And mostly they do.
Do you also have a whip and like to be called Mistress? ;)
It's a fair point though. Your personality type goes further in defining who you are than how big your bank balance is. Extroverted or introverted makes little difference as far as whether you recognise your reflection in a mirror or if your physiology feels right or wrong.
All roads lead to Rome, as it were.
Quote from: Stephe on April 11, 2012, 02:32:58 PM
What does being "successful" or not have to do with GID and needing to transition? Does someone have to be homeless, beat up and bullied to "need" to transition?
Are only weak, shy, introverted people allowed to do be women? Sorry but I am the same strong, dominant person I was before I transitioned. I boss people around and expect to have people listen to me. And mostly they do. This whole -you have to be weak, shy and demure if you're a woman- is a sickening stereotype and an insult to every woman on the planet. If what most of you gals have posted here is true, people like Hillary Clinton are men!
you mis read what i meant. I never said they had to be weak or demure.. I just meant that a successful person didn't seem to me to need to tranmsition.. Most of the people i know who did did it because it was either that or die..
Quote from: Amazon D on April 11, 2012, 01:53:50 PM
you alpha peeps.. and i could never understand a successful person transitioning.. seems like a total choice verses a desire/need for survival...
No.
What you do not appreciate is that for many of us, the 'alpha' was a way to mask our
failure. To hide from the awful, horrible truth that you were weird, that there was something wrong with you, that you were clearly some kind of freak or nutter or something. Anything other than face up to the truth.
So you sublimate the desire for change by being big, loud, strong and masculine. You work hard, you play hard, you study hard. You fall into bed every night with your mind utterly exhausted so you do not have to lie awake and think of everything that is wrong with your life. Of the hell that every living day is for you. If you are not tired you read until your eyes are sore and you cannot stay awake, but what you never EVER do is reflect on your inner self. You ignore all your own desires and feelings and substitute risks, thrills and excitement instead. You date, you marry, you have kids, you become a successful pillar of your family and community. People look up to you because you are such an achiever.
But it is all a lie.
And then one day something happens. Something both wonderful and awful. You admit the truth to yourself and the lie is over, but then a new hell begins where you lose everything that you spent a lifetime gaining - except for one thing. You become your true self.
Is it worth it?
Is there a choice?
It's a great question. It was only in the last year that I really got into what privilege means in the U.S. When I decided to transition I was fully aware of what I was giving up. Being a white, well-educated, male provided me with a lot of privilege. However, I gladly give it up. The day I am ma'amed and my opinion not so readily listened to will be a good day for me ;)
Seriously though, living in a woman's world is worth everything to me, and I gladly hand over that privilege that was formally mine. Plus, I still have the high income, high education, white privilege! Woohoo!
P.S. Sorry if my levity was inappropriate
Quote from: Amazon D on April 11, 2012, 03:06:56 PM
you mis read what i meant. I never said they had to be weak or demure.. I just meant that a successful person didn't seem to me to need to tranmsition.. Most of the people i know who did did it because it was either that or die..
Equating "need to transition" with success is confusing as hell.
I actually think this speaks to a drill-down question from Mal's initial inquiry:
If you are considered successful in your life and some of that success could be attributed to the perceptions and manifestations of male privilege, what does losing that during transition represent?A few folks have suggested that it simply migrated for them, which I find fascinating and interesting as hell. :)
-Miki
Quote from: Beverley on April 11, 2012, 03:13:09 PM
What you do not appreciate is that for many of us, the 'alpha' was a way to mask our failure. To hide from the awful, horrible truth that you were weird, that there was something wrong with you, that you were clearly some kind of freak or nutter or something. Anything other than face up to the truth.
This, this, this.
Said far better than I managed.
-Miki
Quote from: tara tricks on April 11, 2012, 03:15:13 PM
It's a great question. It was only in the last year that I really got into what privilege means in the U.S. When I decided to transition I was fully aware of what I was giving up. Being a white, well-educated, male provided me with a lot of privilege. However, I gladly give it up. The day I am ma'amed and my opinion not so readily listened to will be a good day for me ;)
Seriously though, living in a woman's world is worth everything to me, and I gladly hand over that privilege that was formally mine. Plus, I still have the high income, high education, white privilege! Woohoo!
P.S. Sorry if my levity was inappropriate
I don't think it was inappropriate at all along with peky's answer. I was looking for some types of answers like those as I'm really curious to understand it since I'm on the otherside of the railroad.
Quote from: Beverley on April 11, 2012, 03:13:09 PM
No.
What you do not appreciate is that for many of us, the 'alpha' was a way to mask our failure. To hide from the awful, horrible truth that you were weird, that there was something wrong with you, that you were clearly some kind of freak or nutter or something. Anything other than face up to the truth.
So you sublimate the desire for change by being big, loud, strong and masculine. You work hard, you play hard, you study hard. You fall into bed every night with your mind utterly exhausted so you do not have to lie awake and think of everything that is wrong with your life. Of the hell that every living day is for you. If you are not tired you read until your eyes are sore and you cannot stay awake, but what you never EVER do is reflect on your inner self. You ignore all your own desires and feelings and substitute risks, thrills and excitement instead. You date, you marry, you have kids, you become a successful pillar of your family and community. People look up to you because you are such an achiever.
But it is all a lie.
And then one day something happens. Something both wonderful and awful. You admit the truth to yourself and the lie is over, but then a new hell begins where you lose everything that you spent a lifetime gaining - except for one thing. You become your true self.
Is it worth it?
Is there a choice?
Not quiet my story. Although I was the leader, I was funny and compassionate (I am still), so I was not the proverbial strong and abusive, but rather strong and protective. Also important in my life is the fact that since since puberty I was "out" to anybody who got to meet me (even casually). People thought I was doing to get attention, others (males) thought I was doing it to get in the girl's pants, my parents thought I was gay, but the reality was I was just myself (and still are).
I did loose a partner of many years because she could not longer live with a "lesbian" story, but you know what, lives goes on, my journey continues, I have my kids and that is a lot.
Quote from: Amazon D on April 11, 2012, 03:06:56 PM
you mis read what i meant. I never said they had to be weak or demure.. I just meant that a successful person didn't seem to me to need to tranmsition.. Most of the people i know who did did it because it was either that or die..
Agreed.
Quote from: Beverley on April 11, 2012, 03:13:09 PM
No.
What you do not appreciate is that for many of us, the 'alpha' was a way to mask our failure. To hide from the awful, horrible truth that you were weird, that there was something wrong with you, that you were clearly some kind of freak or nutter or something. Anything other than face up to the truth.
So you sublimate the desire for change by being big, loud, strong and masculine. You work hard, you play hard, you study hard. You fall into bed every night with your mind utterly exhausted so you do not have to lie awake and think of everything that is wrong with your life. Of the hell that every living day is for you. If you are not tired you read until your eyes are sore and you cannot stay awake, but what you never EVER do is reflect on your inner self. You ignore all your own desires and feelings and substitute risks, thrills and excitement instead. You date, you marry, you have kids, you become a successful pillar of your family and community. People look up to you because you are such an achiever.
But it is all a lie.
Really? :eusa_liar:
Quote from: Sephirah on April 11, 2012, 02:53:58 PM
Do you also have a whip and like to be called Mistress? ;)
Sometimes lol.
I don't feel it's my place to -not understand how someone would kill themselves over this- just because I never felt that way. And should only the extreme cases where people threaten to commit suicide be allowed to transition? I'm amazed sometimes when I read what people post on gender forums and maybe I'm just not like most other transpeople?
Quote from: MacKenzie on April 11, 2012, 05:02:33 PM
Really? :eusa_liar:
I write about my experiences. Yours may differ.
See that's why I never wanted male privilege... You have to achieve stuff. Yuck.
Luckily nobody ever took me very seriously as a guy. I mean without a doubt I was male in gender, but people always treated me like that wasn't necessarily all there is to the picture.
Am I the only one who finds myself occasionally missing my male privilege? I mean don't get me wrong, I'd never want to detransition or be a boy again (yuck!) I just
Find myself in certain situations wishing for my male authority, wishing people would take me more seriously, stuff like that!
I was a very athletic boy, state pole-vaulter / swimmer. Transitioned at 19 and had really good results I'm 5'7 and very passable.
Sorry I don't post much.
Quote from: Malachite on April 11, 2012, 01:21:42 PM
1. "All" can be a very dangerous term which why I don't use especially when referring to groups of people.
2. You are assuming that I assume that "all transsexuals are full on red blooded males before they transition". That is a statement I do not believe in so your assumption is false.
Ok, so why didn't you provide an alternative like 'were you submissive and weak and feminine' in your question, then I could then relate to the question more.
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
I have no idea what "male privlilege" means and I have no experience of being a 'dominant strong male' and I detested any male conditioning and didn't comply with it. Many of us came through a totally different route and find it hard to relate to your dominant male viewpoint.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 13, 2012, 09:55:15 AM
Ok, so why didn't you provide an alternative like 'were you submissive and weak and feminine' in your question, then I could then relate to the question more.
I have no idea what "male privlilege" means and I have no experience of being a 'dominant strong male' and I detested any male conditioning and didn't comply with it. Many of us came through a totally different route and find it hard to relate to your dominant male viewpoint.
Because in some societies, the "male" is still seen typically as "dominate" even though there are many less dominate males.
No doubt many people come from different backgrounds and that's understandable. In that case then there's not much of a point to answering the question but I'm basically getting at what Beverley was saying to mask failure with alpha dominance because it happens.
Btw I never said
my "dominant male viewpoint". I specifically distinguished as what "some may say".
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on April 13, 2012, 09:55:15 AM
Ok, so why didn't you provide an alternative like 'were you submissive and weak and feminine' in your question, then I could then relate to the question more.
I have no idea what "male privlilege" means and I have no experience of being a 'dominant strong male' and I detested any male conditioning and didn't comply with it. Many of us came through a totally different route and find it hard to relate to your dominant male viewpoint.
I really don't think you do understand what the term means because if has nothing to do with being submissive and weak and feminine OR being dominant strong and masculine.
Did you bother to look at the wikipedia link explaining what the term even means? It has absolutely nothing to do with male conditioning or you acting any way whatsoever. Many men have no clue they even have it. I didn't realize it was really there until I started living as a woman. And trust me I was never strong and masculine either. It is something I lost but I'm fine with that.
Now if you have presented as female from birth, yes you never had male privilege, otherwise you have had it and had no say so in the matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege
Quote from: Stephe on April 13, 2012, 12:00:20 PM
I really don't think you do understand what the term means because if has nothing to do with being submissive and weak and feminine OR being dominant strong and masculine.
Did you bother to look at the wikipedia link explaining what the term even means? It has absolutely nothing to do with male conditioning or you acting any way whatsoever. Many men have no clue they even have it. I didn't realize it was really there until I started living as a woman. And trust me I was never strong and masculine either. It is something I lost but I'm fine with that.
Now if you have presented as female from birth, yes you never had male privilege, otherwise you have had it and had no say so in the matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege
My point was we don't all fit into the boxes. I am however aware that men usually get paid more than women which is a 'male privilege'.
What she's saying is that male privilege isn't something that you engage in yourself, on a conscious or subconscious level.
It's a set of perceptions and standards that are applied to you by other people.
There is no box, as you do not define what the parameters of male privilege are as they apply to you, other people do.
-Miki
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on April 11, 2012, 05:34:21 PM
See that's why I never wanted male privilege... You have to achieve stuff. Yuck.
This I don't get. If I had kids I'd want my daughter to achieve just as much as I'd want my son to achieve. What does that have to do with privileges?
Quote from: Sub-Zero on April 13, 2012, 03:47:13 PM
This I don't get. If I had kids I'd want my daughter to achieve just as much as I'd want my son to achieve. What does that have to do with privileges?
Nothing.
Male privilege is a term that refers to special rights or status granted to men in a society,
on the basis of their sex or gender, but usually denied to women. It has nothing to do with ability or achievement.
Thank you Beverley, I thought it was just me not understanding.
Quote from: Stephe on April 13, 2012, 12:00:20 PM
Now if you have presented as female from birth, yes you never had male privilege, otherwise you have had it and had no say so in the matter.
Privilege suggests some kind of benefit or special entitlement. If you didn't receive that benefit or entitlement then you didn't have that privilege. Not all men benefit from being male, thus not all men have male privilege.
Some do, and the fact that they do is incredibly unfair, but trying to stick a label of privilege on all men is just as bad. Stop it.
I nevr had privileges of any kind, especially male ones. I just tried to coope with few male friends never being able to fit into anything, mostly wasting time. Oh i really don't miss that. Just now I am starting to fight from the right perspective and it takes times but i do get some help, nor privileges just normal tenderness or humanity, that I give back when it's my turn to give to people having tough times just as me.
Quote from: Skyanne on April 13, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
Privilege suggests some kind of benefit or special entitlement. If you didn't receive that benefit or entitlement then you didn't have that privilege. Not all men benefit from being male, thus not all men have male privilege.
And how would you know unless you are clairvoyant? And if you don't think males are -given- special rights, you aren't being realistic.
And I find it hard to believe anyone can believe they will be treated no differently if they present as a man or a woman. I've found a huge chasm of difference in how I am treated after transition. Some good, some not so good.
And that if you look like a man to someone else, they aren't going to give you the same treatment they give other men? And somehow know you're really a woman inside that they can't see, so they don't extend this special treatment reserved for men because you don't want it?
Look I realize it's all PC to say "I never had male privilege" as a trans person. The fact is: if you ever presented as male you were afforded male privilege even if you didn't want it. It's not a choice for you to make because it's how other people think. You can't control that.
Quote from: Skyanne on April 13, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
Privilege suggests some kind of benefit or special entitlement. If you didn't receive that benefit or entitlement then you didn't have that privilege. Not all men benefit from being male, thus not all men have male privilege.
Some do, and the fact that they do is incredibly unfair, but trying to stick a label of privilege on all men is just as bad. Stop it.
It's not some made up phenomenon or arbitrary label. You'd never know if you received consideration in this vein.
You're getting hung up on the word "privilege" here by seeing it an
active benefit that can be sought out, controlled, accepted or denied.
It is an entirely
passive cultural behavior exhibited by others towards males and is 100% outside your ability to control, govern or deny if you are a male existing in that culture.
-Miki
Quote from: Stephe on April 13, 2012, 09:15:26 PM
And that if you look like a man to someone else, they aren't going to give you the same treatment they give other men? And somehow know you're really a woman inside that they can't see, so they don't extend this special treatment reserved for men because you don't want it?
I think the only important point of this is that they don't aggressively hit on you (usually--I have had some strange incidents, as well as of course occasionally passing as female while presenting male).
Men "palling around" with me always made me really anxious and uncomfortable. I avoided men for that reason. When I went to school for a couple semesters, I ended up in a night class full of men. They would just tell grotesquely misogynistic jokes and stories with each other and rather than be present for that "special treatment" I would go for walks on breaks. It does even out a bit though, because I had the privilege of at least not being the target of their misogyny. The other girl in that class did, as well as the female teacher. Though it was behind their back.
Still, I think that just because you have male privilege doesn't mean it benefits you. Or at least not to a useful degree. If you're in some masculine industry, yeah. If you never leave your house, not really. If all your friends are girls, not really. If you shy away from men, again, not really.
And I think, for a trans woman, it's hard to think of male privilege as much more than just icing on a vomit-inducing cake. It's like, "yeah, you hate being male and it's awful, but here's a couple little advantages for you to ponder!" When at the same time, there is an underside of male privilege that you notice most when you don't have a masculine personality.
So my real point here is that I think talking about this issue with trans women is a bit divisive. It doesn't really matter what we think of male privilege because it's just a part of the bundle that we would happily trade off to set things right :). That is not an endorsement of the existence of male privilege, it is what it is. But again, it doesn't matter because whether it exists or not it doesn't change who we are.
Quote from: Skyanne on April 13, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
Privilege suggests some kind of benefit or special entitlement. If you didn't receive that benefit or entitlement then you didn't have that privilege. Not all men benefit from being male, thus not all men have male privilege.
Some do, and the fact that they do is incredibly unfair, but trying to stick a label of privilege on all men is just as bad. Stop it.
Let me give you an example.
At one point we needed to get another car so we went to a small dealer and picked out the car we wanted, did the test drive. I told the salesman that it was for my wife (who was standing beside me - I was male at the time) so she needed to test drive it. He went and got the keys and gave them to ME.
When we purchased the car both of us where together and I had not brought my wallet but she had her handbag. So SHE paid for the car with her bank card. The salesman then got out the paperwork to be filled in.
"What is your wife's name?" he asked ME. She was right there and had just spent a few thousand.
That is male privilege and I was getting it in bucket loads.
Quote from: pretty on April 13, 2012, 11:45:56 PM
And I think, for a trans woman, it's hard to think of male privilege as much more than just icing on a vomit-inducing cake.
Cake!! :icon_yes:
What about female privilege? about 13 years ago before I started transitioning I used to make deliveries in a van. Men used to unload and carry all the parcels for me obviously thinking I was female. I did nothing and just thanked them for their help!
Quote from: Stephe on April 13, 2012, 09:15:26 PM
And I find it hard to believe anyone can believe they will be treated no differently if they present as a man or a woman. I've found a huge chasm of difference in how I am treated after transition. Some good, some not so good.
This a completely different thing to male privilege, of course men and women are treated differently. The concept of male privilege is that men all occupy a privileged position in society which is completely wrong.
If you just want to say that men and women are treated differently, then that's fine, I completely agree. If you want to say that anyone who ever presented as male received privilege above and beyond what women receive, you're talking complete and utter non-sense.
Quote from: Miki on April 13, 2012, 10:06:20 PM
You're getting hung up on the word "privilege" here by seeing it an active benefit that can be sought out, controlled, accepted or denied.
-Miki
No, you're mistaken. I'm entirely aware of the conept, I'm just pointing out that it's a generalisation, and like pretty much all generalisations does not stand up to scrutiny. Not all men receive privilege above and beyond what women receive, and in fact in some cases female privilege exceeds that which is received by men.
I realise it's easy to invent a magic concept that can't be disproved because you don't know you're receiving it, unfortunately the inability to disprove something is not how 'proof' works, you need to be able to demonstrate that someone has -benefited- from their gender in a way they would never have received if they were the opposite gender.
You simply cannot do this for all men ever, thus male privilege as a concept is flawed. Some men are privileged, not all men.
Quote from: Skyanne on April 14, 2012, 10:04:36 AM
This a completely different thing to male privilege, of course men and women are treated differently. The concept of male privilege is that men all occupy a privileged position in society which is completely wrong.
If you just want to say that men and women are treated differently, then that's fine, I completely agree. If you want to say that anyone who ever presented as male received privilege above and beyond what women receive, you're talking complete and utter non-sense.
Then how exactly are they treated different if one doesn't receive treatment the other is denied and vice versa? That is the very definition of privilege.
Again I know it's not all "TG PC" and girly to admit you ever got any male privilege so keep telling yourself you never did.. It's not the first time I've seen MTF do this.
Quote from: Stephe on April 14, 2012, 10:21:56 AM
Then how exactly are they treated different if one doesn't receive treatment the other is denied and vice versa? That is the very definition of privilege.
Again I know it's not all "TG PC" and girly to admit you ever got any male privilege so keep telling yourself you never did.. It's not the first time I've seen MTF do this.
Being treated differently does not imply a privilege, the definition of privilege is that you receive a -benefit-.
Since transitioning, I am now better paid, better treated and protected by numerous anti-discrimination laws. I'm sorry, but the politically correct thing here is to go with the flow and pretend men get everything handed to them on a plate, but it's simply not true.
You can keep telling yourself all people who presented as male received some kind of benefit from it, but your arguement for this seems to resolve around 'ya-huh you did too', and since I'm older than five, colour me unconvinced.
That's it might be widespread does not make it universal - lots, and lots and lots of other mitigating factors in there, like race, social class, culture, and physical attractiveness.
If you think that the boy who is overweight, kinda not-bright, all sorts of asthma wheezy, who's parents don't buy him the cool kid clothes (not that they make them in those sizes) is getting some sort of 'privilege' above that of say the cheer-leading girls you'd be wrong.
Where exactly is the 'privilege' in being the last one picked in gym everyday - usually after a fight about who 'has to' take them, " Yeah, well if we have to have Steve then we get two more guys too", EVERYDAY FOR YEARS - who gets pantsed once a week and tossed into the girls bathroom, and has their lunch money ripped off on a constant basis?
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
To be honest, yes! I live in Northwestern U.S. and enjoyed outdoor sports, saltwater fishing, shooting at the local range, and although I have never killed anything, hunting. I went with several fellows and enjoyed the crisp cold Autumn air, the camaraderie and a few drinks around the camp fire at night. I wanted to be able to stand up and pee on a tree rather than have to do the squat and drip dry method. Then there's the questions I would be faced with like, "What happened to your dick?" Those days are pretty much over since I made my choice. Although there are an increasing number of women engaged in shooting competitions these days and they are good at it because of superior hand/eye coordination. I don't have any regrets!
Quote from: Skyanne on April 14, 2012, 10:04:36 AM
You simply cannot do this for all men ever, thus male privilege as a concept is flawed. Some men are privileged, not all men.
Alright, I buy that, but do not at all buy into the premise that you can decide or determine for yourself if it has ever been applied to you or not. You have no way of knowing.
The OP did not ask if the concept of male privilege was universal, justified or politically correct.
The OP asked if anyone had personal experience with the concept and if that experience influenced their transition in any way.
Your answer seems to be "no" while mine was "yep!"
No harm, no foul in both being true and equally valid :)
-Miki
1. Stop thinking you're intruding, duh.
2. Where I live, there's no such thing as a male privilege, except maybe a traditional preference for males in high, leading jobs like directors and politicians... even though it's changing as the old men are retiring.
Actually, I've only ever hit a female privilege that I lacked. It's not exactly a positive thing, but nowadays, females are stereotypically regarded as superwomen who can take care of children alone, work and imply themselves in their community, all responsibly, whilst males are supposedly sexual, aggressive and misadapted people who can only barely manage a job, failing to take care of housework efficiently. It's like men are women's children. It's not to such an extent, and it's not in everyone, but it's sort of the idea that's going around. Like it's revenge for past sexism.
Females are more regarded than males in many sectors, be it social relations or even work. For example, a theatre once turned me back saying that they didn't hire guys.
Also, females who work in traditionally male environments (computers, mechanical and construction workers, truck driving) are usually encouraged, whilst males in the opposite position (secretaries, nurses, children guardians) are generally disregarded ("it's gay!") or distrusted ("you'll rape my children!")
All that to say that no, I don't feel I'm losing any male privilege.
Quote from: Miki on April 14, 2012, 12:29:49 PM
Your answer seems to be "no" while mine was "yep!"
No harm, no foul in both being true and equally valid :)
-Miki
I totally agree with this.
I still disagree with this notion of an unprovable benefit to being male that everyone who presents as male receives though. I could just as well insist that pixies have been casting magic spells to help you through life and you can't say that they didn't because no one is aware of them and you can't choose if the pixies help you or not!
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
I hated my male privilege but a lot of male privilege goes unnoticed and isn't something i was nor am always aware of and i probably used it a lot! I actually believe some trans women may retain certain aspects of their male privilege through transition or even still have access to it and use it when needed. (such as going into boy mode when applying for jobs, which sucks but some do it because they have to!) plus, there's many things about our bodies that are very different from a genetic women's body that is up against politics, such as...public breast feeding politics, abortion.. what have you. As a trans woman that is a feminist and an active activist, i have to be aware of these things not technically being against my male sex, but my identity as a woman, which is different for cis women. I hope my take on your question wasn't going down too much of a different direction.
I think trans women lose a lot of male privilege that they didn't like to begin with, nor did some even have so much male privilege to begin with. It's all really complicated and depends because privilege itself is complicated and depends.
But I operate from a Peggy Mcintosh perspective.
Losing male privilege is one of the reasons I'm probably not going to transitions... so... yeah, I don't exactly belong on this board, but there's my input.
Quote from: A on April 14, 2012, 12:50:03 PM
1. Stop thinking you're intruding, duh.
2. Where I live, there's no such thing as a male privilege, except maybe a traditional preference for males in high, leading jobs like directors and politicians... even though it's changing as the old men are retiring.
Actually, I've only ever hit a female privilege that I lacked. Nowadays, it's not exactly a positive thing, but females are stereotypically regarded as superwomen who can take care of children alone, work and imply themselves in their community, all responsibly, whilst males are supposedly sexual, aggressive and misadapted people who can only barely manage a job, failing to take care of housework efficiently. It's like men are women's children. It's not to such an extent, and it's not in everyone, but it's sort of the idea that's going around. Like it's revenge for past sexism.
Females are more regarded than males in many sectors, be it social relations or even work. For example, a theatre once turned me back saying that they didn't hire guys.
Also, females who work in traditionally male environments (computers, mechanical and construction workers, truck driving) are usually encouraged, whilst males in the opposite position (secretaries, nurses, children guardians) are generally disregarded ("it's gay!") or distrusted ("you'll rape my children!")
All that to say that no, I don't feel I'm losing any male privilege.
A... Canada's a lovely place and all, but ladies still make 0.70 on the dollar. Better than most, but we've got a LONG LONG way to go to equality. Never even had a female prime minister yet. Our ratio of men to women in politics is deplorable, and Quebec's legislature is no better. Just because OVERT sexism is no longer acceptable does not mean that it doesn't go on. (And trust me, outside of the white, middle-class, urban areas - overt sexism is still perfectly acceptable.)
And yes, that men who go to work in traditionally female professions are treated like ->-bleeped-<- is horrible. The reason for that is that "women's work" is still overwhelmingly undervalued in society. Part of the same sexist system.
Yes, it was ->-bleeped-<-ing hell for most of us to live as guys. But that isn't a universal experience. Hell, when I was little I thought that they flipped a coin when you were born and the lucky ones got to be girls and the unlucky ones had to be boys - like someone has to take the black pieces in chess. Most of us have some underlying rage at our situation that can colour our perceptions.
Have a look at some of the actual ongoing research on gender differences, have a look at the UN stats for your country/region/whatever. Try to keep an open mind. Things have been getting better, thankfully - but, no, they aren't perfect.
I really don't get what the big deal is. I'm privileged 'cause I'm white and middle-class and university-educated and from a progressive environment. On the other hand I'm trans and gay and female and disabled. Each individual has their own personal cocktail of advantages and disadvantages. Nobody is trying to say a black queen has it harder than a white pawn. All men are not better off than all women. Just that a black pawn has it harder than a white pawn. If you control for all other factors, being male comes with advantages over being female. That's just the world we live in. Even in Canada.
Well, there are female (provincial) prime ministers, and the current favourite candidate for Québec's is a woman...
My deep belief is that most of the differences still present today are due to men's promotions to better jobs long ago, and the fact that they still haven't retired. And maybe also the fact that women, be it due to tradition, hormonal inclinations or any other reason, tend to like jobs that have a lower salary more than men. For example, many factory/construction workers with a workers' union and all get (imo) INDECENT salaries (like, 100-200 000 $ a year), despite their lack of education or special expertise, and women don't tend to work there a lot.
I may be naive, but I'm talking about my own experience and what I myself have witnessed.
Anyone in a craft union who is making 100-200K a year is either doing 24/7 overtime, or they do have some very special expertise.
Nope. Just ancestors who got them very useful advantages at a time when they had to support a ten-people family with their salary, and the job was massively noxious to their health when companies didn't have to care about employees' condition, and it all stayed when their grandsons only had one child and their partners worked, too.
Just below doctors and such, factory workers are the richest around here. They earn about as much as someone who has 3 years of university. Of course, they work 12 hrs a day, one day out of two, but nurses have it worse.
Another example is my ex-co-tenant's boyfriend, 25 years old, who currently makes 150 000 $ a year with a very low level diploma and little experience, because he operates a mechanical shovel with inhuman schedules in the great North.
Some people are overpaid while many others are underpaid; I guess that's just how it is.
Lots of great answers here so far with a lot of input! :)
@Torn1990 your take of the question didn't go into a different direction at all. Good answer btw!
@Trixie I appreciate your honesty. If I may ask, how often does male privilege conflict with your gender idenity if it is an issue for you?
@Shantel I've always wanted to do outdoor things but I was never a fan of having to squat so that's probably why I didn't participate much....other than just being lazy. :D
he operates a mechanical shovel with inhuman schedules in the great North
That sounds special to me. Very expensive equipment, in a construction environment where time is money and lots of it, lousy work schedule and bitter cold - that's worth money. Knowing philosophy or sociology isn't. Everybody thinks some classes in the university makes them all so desirable. But, what can most students do at the end of four years (3 years is worthless, degree or no degree, 3 years just makes you look like you were stupid enough to waste 3 years doing nothing)?
And I work some pretty inhuman hours too. 15-18 days are normal, and you know what? Most people can't handle it. Yeah, we get double time from midnight to 6am, but you want people working at that time, you're going to pay them for it.
i just realized my gif post was deleted.
any rules i'm not aware of yet preventing gif posts?
Quote from: Torn1990 on April 14, 2012, 03:42:40 PM
i just realized my gif post was deleted.
any rules i'm not aware of yet preventing gif posts?
Please refer to the Photo, avatars, and signature images policy (http://"https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.0.html") thread.
Well, it's not any colder than here, especially in the summer, and his truck is heated/climatised. Maybe in the winter, whilst over here it's about -20 °C, it's -30 °C, but with the right clothes, I don't think it does any difference.
Not saying it's an easy job; heck, I couldn't do it; but it's not ALL that special or hard for anyone who's into physical work. There's a reason it only takes 1-2 years of studies, maximum, to do it. Plus, he has inhuman schedules, but that's because he consents to it. He could work more normal schedules, like many others over there do, and still earn well over 50 000 $ a year, since his hourly wage is huge.
Actually, the reason why his salary is so good is that the government made the (bad, for many reasons) decision of spending a lot of subvention money on companies so they can mine and sell our minerals with almost no cost, with almost no obligation but that of hiring and having a relatively high salary mass.
PS: Education system over here is different. The equivalent of high school has one year less, but then you have college, which is mandatory to access university, for 2-3 years, depending on the field of study, and then, university's first cycle of study only takes three years, leading to a baccalaureate (if that's how they're called in English), instead of four in many other places, including the rest of Canada. Overall, a person with that diploma actually has one or two more years of studies than an American, for example, I believe.
Torn1990:
QuoteEdit: Connie Anne linked to it, so no need for this./quote]
Quote from: Sarah7 on April 14, 2012, 01:23:36 PM
I really don't get what the big deal is. I'm privileged 'cause I'm white and middle-class and university-educated and from a progressive environment. On the other hand I'm trans and gay and female and disabled. Each individual has their own personal cocktail of advantages and disadvantages. Nobody is trying to say a black queen has it harder than a white pawn. All men are not better off than all women. Just that a black pawn has it harder than a white pawn. If you control for all other factors, being male comes with advantages over being female. That's just the world we live in. Even in Canada.
not sure what i did broke any of those rules actually.
But if this is better for you all...
I am in agreement with what is being said here, i think it is important information! Coolio cereal keep up the awesomeness.
Preach.
Strange judgment mod.. i mean, if i responded to A with the face palm meme then i'd understand but come on people. Plus, i wouldn't do that anyway because i think A's perspective is still valuable i was just highlighting some knowledge i find important.
To clarify, you posted just a picture without text, which did not add to the discussion, and regardless of the original intent, it could easily be interpreted as disrespectful.
Quote from: A on April 14, 2012, 03:57:14 PM
To clarify, you posted just a picture without text, which did not add to the discussion, and regardless of the original intent, it could easily be interpreted as disrespectful.
I suppose! i guess i'm not really a proponent of censorship. Plus, i'm an active forum member that always likes to add to dialogue not some troll. I'm not against bullying regulation, but now i feel my perspective is being bullied just because i posted a gif that expressed agreement with something. I think that contributes to the discussion because it tells someone to maybe take a second look at something that was said.
Smells like a double standard
Actually, I don't know about others, but I originally interpreted that as you accusing her of preaching, as an insult.
Plus, I believe the main point to your post's deletal (if that word exists) was that it was only an image to express a message, which is generally not very appreciated by people, and that there was no explanation or arguments for it. Just like people who just post "+1", it can easily called flooding, but even more so because it's an image which, as I already said, aren't a very nice thing to post, unless you're on an image board.
Quote from: A on April 14, 2012, 04:06:14 PM
Actually, I don't know about others, but I originally interpreted that as you accusing her of preaching, as an insult.
Plus, I believe the main point to your post's deletal (if that word exists) was that it was only an image to express a message, which is generally not very appreciated by people, and that there was no explanation or arguments for it. Just like people who just post "+1", it can easily called flooding, but even more so because it's an image which, as I already said, aren't a very nice thing to post, unless you're on an image board.
As an insult to sarah? oh goodness this is getting skewed and exceptional.
in context for those who have seen that glee episode, it means "i agree."
i think this takes out the fun in forum posting but allrighty..
Rules being forced upon by subjective rulings of one person can't be perfect! Maybe emoticons will be better?
How's this one? " ::)"
I'll try and avoid outside gifs in the future.
Quote from: Site terms of service20. The staff of this site exist to provide support to our members and visitors and to provide a safe environment by enforcing the TOS and rules of this web site and chat server. If you disagree with their actions or in regards to a specific situation feel free to contact Susan by email, or forum private message, with the details of the situation. She will review your complaint and take any corrective action that may be required by the situation. All user complaints and issues are taken seriously and investigated thoroughly.
Probably not a good idea to be discussing it in a public thread.
Not to mention, it's deviating from the thread subject.
(Don't want to step on any toes here, old habits die hard I guess, lol)
Quote from: Sephirah on April 14, 2012, 04:16:11 PM
Probably not a good idea to be discussing it in a public thread.
Not to mention, it's deviating from the thread subject.
(Don't want to step on any toes here, old habits die hard I guess, lol)
will do. thanks.
Was I insulted? Odd... I don't feel insulted.
I'm sorry for bringing the topic off track.
Quote from: A on April 14, 2012, 04:19:58 PM
I'm sorry for bringing the topic off track.
So on that note, let's return to the original topic:
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
Quote from: Malachite on April 14, 2012, 02:47:11 PM
@Trixie I appreciate your honesty. If I may ask, how often does male privilege conflict with your gender idenity if it is an issue for you?
Well, I'm almost completely closeted... so all the time... or never? I'm not sure I understand the question.
Men... in my opinion... do have it better than woman in a lot of ways. That's just my opinion, nobody go crazy at me please, yes, I realize sexism goes the other way too sometimes.
I know that I wouldn't be taken as seriously if I were publicly a woman, much less a transwoman.
Quote from: Trixie on April 14, 2012, 04:31:16 PM
Well, I'm almost completely closeted... so all the time... or never? I'm not sure I understand the question.
Men... in my opinion... do have it better than woman in a lot of ways. That's just my opinion, nobody go crazy at me please, yes, I realize sexism goes the other way too sometimes.
I know that I wouldn't be taken as seriously if I were publicly a woman, much less a transwoman.
Like does it ever upset you if you desire to transition but transitioning may not be the best for you privilege wise in your situation? How do you cope with being closeted?
Quote from: Beverley on April 14, 2012, 02:10:13 AM
Let me give you an example.
At one point we needed to get another car so we went to a small dealer and picked out the car we wanted, did the test drive. I told the salesman that it was for my wife (who was standing beside me - I was male at the time) so she needed to test drive it. He went and got the keys and gave them to ME.
When we purchased the car both of us where together and I had not brought my wallet but she had her handbag. So SHE paid for the car with her bank card. The salesman then got out the paperwork to be filled in. "What is your wife's name?" he asked ME. She was right there and had just spent a few thousand.
That is male privilege and I was getting it in bucket loads.
WOW-Did your wife ever call the salesman on it?
Quote from: Stephe on April 10, 2012, 11:10:46 PM
It didn't affect me wanting or not wanting to transition but I am amazed how much differently women are treated from men. Especially by men. I never was a "strong male" but men do get a pass on many things women don't, no matter how manly the man is or isn't. I was a super girly "man" for many years but still had "male privilege"
Again it's mainly how men treat women. Most now see me as helpless and dumb. I can't just go like buy a computer part without some guy trying to "help me" or question I know what I'm talking about. "You probably should let someone else look at this for you" is a common thing I hear now. They guys at the hardware store look at me like I'm crazy for asking for something like a plumbing part there. "Did your husband send you with a list?" :P Don't even get me started about dealing with car stuff as a woman lol. I have learned this is part of being a woman and just laugh when it happens.
And no, I'm not going to become helpless, weak and dumb to fit their stereotype/view of how women are.
What do you say to those types of comments?
Quote from: Malachite on April 14, 2012, 04:37:51 PM
Like does it ever upset you if you desire to transition but transitioning may not be the best for you privilege wise in your situation? How do you cope with being closeted?
Yes, it does. I could probably deal with the loss of privilege, but I wouldn't like it. :( The "taboo-ness" and the social ostracization, rejection from family etc. would be far worse for me.
As for how I cope? I don't... not very well. I'm not even sure of my gender identity anymore... I really don't know. I just know that I'd prefer to be female, and to be recognized as female, but I don't know if it's worth it for me to be open about that. It's frightening, and I regret telling the people I have told.
A reminder:
Quote
2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policy, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have issues I suggest you contact Susan by email, or forum private message, and not bring your issues into the public spaces on this website. For the proper way to raise issues see term #20 below.
Quote from: Trixie on April 14, 2012, 04:45:45 PM
Yes, it does. I could probably deal with the loss of privilege, but I wouldn't like it. :( The "taboo-ness" and the social ostracization, rejection from family etc. would be far worse for me.
As for how I cope? I don't... not very well. I'm not even sure of my gender identity anymore... I really don't know. I just know that I'd prefer to be female, and to be recognized as female, but I don't know if it's worth it for me to be open about that. It's frightening, and I regret telling the people I have told.
In a way I can kind of relate. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth it for me to transition. At times I feel that I may lose more privileges than I would gain not that I would be transitioning to gain any privileges. I haven't told most people in my family how I felt but the two people I have told in my family is against it. -sigh-
Quote from: Malachite on April 14, 2012, 04:37:51 PM
What do you say to those types of comments?
I tell them "no, I figured this out without his help" and they look stunned. lol
It's funny my boyfriend is clueless about these types of things. I'm sure though if he went in with my list, they would never assume someone sent him there..
Quote from: Beverley on April 14, 2012, 02:10:13 AM
Let me give you an example.
At one point we needed to get another car so we went to a small dealer and picked out the car we wanted, did the test drive. I told the salesman that it was for my wife (who was standing beside me - I was male at the time) so she needed to test drive it. He went and got the keys and gave them to ME.
When we purchased the car both of us where together and I had not brought my wallet but she had her handbag. So SHE paid for the car with her bank card. The salesman then got out the paperwork to be filled in. "What is your wife's name?" he asked ME. She was right there and had just spent a few thousand.
That is male privilege and I was getting it in bucket loads.
Am I supposed to feel bad that I would rather have my boyfriend handle this situation for me?
I hate car dealerships :-\
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege"
An example from my life is the issue of equal pay. Before I started to transition I realised that I would forego a significant amount of future earnings by working as a woman. Not only due to 'same pay for the same work' type issues which do occur in my field, but also due to the 'glass ceiling' effect.
I am of course grateful that I live in a western society with good equal rights legislation, but I do know that by the end of my career a man with equivalent qualifications and career path will, in all likelihood have earned more than me and secured a higher position. I also know that I will have to prove to others that a woman can succeed in my field in a way that I never had to pre-transition.
For me, transition reached a point where it became inevitable - so the option of staying male in the interests of my career never truly existed. I simply accept that I will now face the same struggles for equality in my field as any other woman.
Quote from: Laura26 on April 15, 2012, 04:14:04 AM
An example from my life is the issue of equal pay. Before I started to transition I realised that I would forego a significant amount of future earnings by working as a woman. Not only due to 'same pay for the same work' type issues which do occur in my field, but also due to the 'glass ceiling' effect.
I am of course grateful that I live in a western society with good equal rights legislation, but I do know that by the end of my career a man with equivalent qualifications and career path will, in all likelihood have earned more than me and secured a higher position. I also know that I will have to prove to others that a woman can succeed in my field in a way that I never had to pre-transition.
For me, transition reached a point where it became inevitable - so the option of staying male in the interests of my career never truly existed. I simply accept that I will now face the same struggles for equality in my field as any other woman.
It's all worth it if you get to live as who you truly are then. :)
Quote from: A on April 14, 2012, 12:50:03 PM
1. Stop thinking you're intruding, duh.
2. Where I live, there's no such thing as a male privilege, except maybe a traditional preference for males in high, leading jobs like directors and politicians... even though it's changing as the old men are retiring.
Actually, I've only ever hit a female privilege that I lacked. It's not exactly a positive thing, but nowadays, females are stereotypically regarded as superwomen who can take care of children alone, work and imply themselves in their community, all responsibly, whilst males are supposedly sexual, aggressive and misadapted people who can only barely manage a job, failing to take care of housework efficiently. It's like men are women's children. It's not to such an extent, and it's not in everyone, but it's sort of the idea that's going around. Like it's revenge for past sexism.
Females are more regarded than males in many sectors, be it social relations or even work. For example, a theatre once turned me back saying that they didn't hire guys.
Also, females who work in traditionally male environments (computers, mechanical and construction workers, truck driving) are usually encouraged, whilst males in the opposite position (secretaries, nurses, children guardians) are generally disregarded ("it's gay!") or distrusted ("you'll rape my children!")
All that to say that no, I don't feel I'm losing any male privilege.
I definitely agree with this, the pendulum is swinging hard the other way.
Among the group of friends I had in high school (7, including me); two dropped out, one committed suicide, and only one of us went on to any sort of post-secondary education. It just seems like males in general are giving up, both in the workforce and in school. When men are successful it's just par for the course, while if they fail they're seen as completely useless. It's disheartening to see the accomplishments of women being so exalted while men are demonized. I really feel for the boys/men growing up today where the prevailing attitude is that they're worth nothing more than support payments and sperm donations.
Male privilege? Yeah, about that...
Quote from: Hannah on April 19, 2012, 06:46:03 PM
I definitely agree with this, the pendulum is swinging hard the other way.
Among the group of friends I had in high school (7, including me); two dropped out, one committed suicide, and only one of us went on to any sort of post-secondary education. It just seems like males in general are giving up, both in the workforce and in school. When men are successful it's just par for the course, while if they fail they're seen as completely useless. It's disheartening to see the accomplishments of women being so exalted while men are demonized. I really feel for the boys/men growing up today where the prevailing attitude is that they're worth nothing more than support payments and sperm donations.
Male privilege? Yeah, about that...
Huh! Yes this has been my recent observation also. I continue to meet young woman working as waitresses or as barista's who are doing well in college with 3.8 and 4.0 GPA's, some are in graduate courses and headed for great careers. The guys are hanging out, pants crotch down at knee level, grab-assing, drinking, rolling fat doobers and going no-where with their lives. I've been wondering what is going on with this picture?
Quote from: Shantel on April 19, 2012, 07:29:09 PM
Huh! Yes this has been my recent observation also. I continue to meet young woman working as waitresses or as barista's who are doing well in college with 3.8 and 4.0 GPA's, some are in graduate courses and headed for great careers. The guys are hanging out, pants crotch down at knee level, grab-assing, drinking, rolling fat doobers and going no-where with their lives. I've been wondering what is going on with this picture?
Jeez doll, what places have you been visiting of late?
I our place we have females now having male mostly diseases like heart-attacks, because they can't emotionally cope with the pace of those top-jobs...
So... as always, nothing ever seems the same, eh :)
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 20, 2012, 03:41:29 AM
Jeez doll, what places have you been visiting of late?
I our place we have females now having male mostly diseases like heart-attacks, because they can't emotionally cope with the pace of those top-jobs...
So... as always, nothing ever seems the same, eh :)
Axélle
Well yes, I've taken note of that also. Perhaps the old stay-at-home housewife role isn't so bad after all! The recent politically motivated flare up between two women over this same issue started quite a brouhaha in the U.S. media.
Quote from: Malachite on April 10, 2012, 09:50:31 PM
Hi there I hope I'm not intruding on anything and I didn't know the best way to to word this question in the title. I hope no one finds this question offensive.
Before transitioning were you ever concerned about losing what some may consider "male privlilege" or just the whole concept/aura of being a "dominant strong male" perhaps or something of the sort? How did did you handle it and was that part of the reason you may have held off transitioning?
No.
Never even grasped the concept of it.
There are different kinds of male privilege, essentially there is the male who understands that he has privilege and takes advantage of it, uses it. Then there is they guy who is oblivious and just benefits from it unwittingly. Then there is the individual who suffers from socially crippling and life crippling GID and who never fit's in, never benefits from male privilege.
And then there are the feminists who accuse the person suffering from GID of male privilege when they really haven't got a clue but they love guilt-tripping a victim.
Anyway.. I know you aren't doing that, just something about transition that really bothered me and left scars.
Hi,
As to Privilege,
I have been given many privilege's in many details in my life, now heres the twist can i claim that as a male or female, the answer is i can claim more than many people can & its not based on am i a male or a woman,
Why because im intersexed im both male / female,
Now next ? is , is there a difference , I can pull rank because i have the experance to be able to & i know what im doing I have had men work under myself in a number of fields millitay building sites & farming community's , both in male & female clothes,
I allso can work under women & i do that as well plus males so its not a issue in fact its quite good,
So the privilege i was given on the basis of who i am as a person rather than wether im male or female or intersexed,
...noeleena...
Noeleena....Kudo's for having your act together and your head intact! :)