In Reference To Do I Pass Threads
I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable. It seems a bit disingenuous and unfair how some seem to have no concerns about trampling all over another person's self-esteem or lack of it, just to be some sort of self appointed expert on what works and what doesn't. One woman here was so crushed that I thought she was about to harm herself.
Well hon, a lot has been posted on just those issues and ramification.
There are (mostly younger?) folks that are afraid to get outed, trolled what ever if they post their personal pic(s).
Older females seem somewhat less affected - of course if we stone unattractive... it might be enough reason not to show up either.
I do agree though, being highly critical and don't show your own mug is kind of neff.
Next... "if you can't take the heat... stay out of the kitchen..." if you ask questions... expect to get answers... and not all of them will be positive. We all different and beauty as well as "passing" is in the end in the eye of the beholder... so, what now?
There is also a very good argument to be made for ANY sort of 2D photo (never mind shopped! I do hope not!) to be still not quite up to the real thing - ourselves - who we are - how we present - how we speak - etc. etc.
Given all this... take a guess if you find me and any silly pics taken with my cell-phone on any of those threads. You will not find me - it is TOO SUBJECTIVE - either which way it may go.
BTW, even WE, ouselves more often then not have to get used to our own, even very best, mug-shots. At least that's my experience - and I'm not really known to be of the "shy sort" he, he.
Take care,
Auntie... Axélle
People who post on the "Do I Pass Thread" want honest opinions on their looks. If they want us to use extra tact, they should mention it. I've always given my most honest opinions to everyone, whilst trying to remain respectful; being harsher when the poster seemed to request "brutal honesty"; being softer when the poster seemed fragile.
Maybe I've been too harsh on someone who didn't seem so, but ended up being quite fragile. In that case, I am very sorry and wish I had read better into her situation, but a person should understand that when they ask for constructive comments on themselves, they expose themselves to things they might not like. I'd understand if it were a comment such as "you're really ugly, you fail, just give up", but unless a person states that they want people to go easy on her, I do not see why a comment intended to help is unacceptable.
That being said, I do absolutely not see how my (or anyone else's) not posting of my picture is relevant or even acceptable to bring into this. I feel insulted. What is this? Because I don't want to show myself, my opinion is less legitimate?
As far as I know, on the Internet, the use of an avatar is the standard. I don't know about the others, but one of the reasons why I use the Internet so much is that I don't have to interact with others directly, because I hate my body.
Maybe it has become more frequent in the last 5-10 years with the advent of Facebook, but the publication of one's own picture is a very special decision that one takes assuming the risks. The day that my picture or real name become requirements on the Internet, I'll stop using it. I hate both of these, and suffer deeply when anyone says or sees any of them. So why the heck would I post it here to please other people, especially considering that it might put me in an unpleasant situation later?
Actually, rather than wanting people without a picture not to comment on others', it should be people who can't muster constructive criticism on their own pictures who shouldn't post them, at least not without a request to go easy on them.
I don't know if it's the sugar, but I feel really angry towards you at the moment. What sort of nonsense is this? Next, to partake in a political debate, we'll need to compete in an election? Need to paint a masterpiece to comment on an artist's work?
...
Being calmer, I can see that your intentions are to protect fragile members, but you are going the wrong way. It would do everyone a great disservice if everyone always posted very nicely and minimised any aspect that didn't work in a person's "do I pass?" picture. People asking for an opinion should be able to take one they don't like, and if they're too fragile, they should not ask for it, or ask it in a specific way.
Truth be told, once I post pictures in the mentioned thread, I'll want brutal honesty, but constructive comments on what to improve, as well. I don't want someone telling me that I'm so pretty and I totally pass when in fact I don't, and I won't care whether it comes from someone with their personal picture in their avatar, or not. Opinion is opinion.
It comes down to the person in question - are they going to take the comments as something to base their improvements on, or are they going to be hurt about it and despair?
Rationally looking at it, the latter will only make it worse, so might as well suck it up and try to improve on it.
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 15, 2012, 11:00:18 AM
Well hon, a lot has been posted on just those issues and ramification.
There are (mostly younger?) folks that are afraid to get outed, trolled what ever if they post their personal pic(s).
Older females seem somewhat less affected - of course if we stone unattractive... it might be enough reason not to show up either.
I do agree though, being highly critical and don't show your own mug is kind of neff.
Next... "if you can't take the heat... stay out of the kitchen..." if you ask questions... expect to get answers... and not all of them will be positive. We all different and beauty as well as "passing" is in the end in the eye of the beholder... so, what now?
There is also a very good argument to be made for ANY sort of 2D photo (never mind shopped! I do hope not!) to be still not quite up to the real thing - ourselves - who we are - how we present - how we speak - etc. etc.
Given all this... take a guess if you find me and any silly pics taken with my cell-phone on any of thos threads. You will not find me - it is TOO SUBJECTIVE - either which way it my go.
BTW, even WE, ouselves more often then not have to get used to our own, even very best, mug-shots. At least that's my experience - and I'm not really known to be of the "shy sort" he, he.
Take care,
Auntie... Axélle
I suppose that you are quite right about all aspects. I don't pass most of the time and to be honest it isn't all that important to me anyway. And like you I'm opinionated and known to be confrontational at times, suppose all that comes with age and experience! Just the same I get upset for the younger ones here whose feelings get crushed. We all have some sort of mental problems if we're honest, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing a counselor for gender dysphoria because we'd have all the answers. I concern myself about those that take criticism to heart and wind up harming themselves because of it.
Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
In Reference To Do I Pass Threads
I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable. It seems a bit disingenuous and unfair how some seem to have no concerns about trampling all over another person's self-esteem or lack of it, just to be some sort of self appointed expert on what works and what doesn't. One woman here was so crushed that I thought she was about to harm herself.
Seriously?
I think it's slightly more disconcerting to propose that someone who doesn't use their own picture, for whatever reason, should somehow be disqualified from expressing an opinion. Which is, in essence, all it is. An opinion. And should be taken as such. No one's an expert on anything. And whether people use their own picture or an avatar... it wouldn't change the kind of person they are and the tact, or lack thereof, in their responses... other than to perhaps illicit a reaction of "Well look at you, what do you know?" Which is, lets face it, hardly conducive to forum relations.
I have to confess I find this more than a little disappointing. And really, how is it not trampling over the self-esteem of people who choose not to display a picture of themselves to even suggest it? That people comport themselves with sensitivity to others' feelings and a bit of forethought to how what they say will be taken... well, it's not something which can be forced on someone by saying "I have to show you mine because you've shown me yours." Something like that has to come from a person's own sensibilities and changed from within. Insensitive people will still be insensitive people whether one can see them being so or not.
As Axélle has mentioned, there are many reasons people don't use their own pictures, not all involve hiding behind an image because they think they'll be better off under a bridge somewhere. That doesn't make what they have to contribute any less valuable.
I agree that harsh comments and tactless, destructive criticism are detrimental, and can leave lasting effects on people. But such things have not been, and will not be limited solely to those people who don't display their own pictures in their posts.
Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
In Reference To Do I Pass Threads
I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable. It seems a bit disingenuous and unfair how some seem to have no concerns about trampling all over another person's self-esteem or lack of it, just to be some sort of self appointed expert on what works and what doesn't. One woman here was so crushed that I thought she was about to harm herself.
You post in the pass thread because you want an opinion. Can't be too picky about it when you actually get it. And telling someone they pass when they don't, which a lot of people do, is only disingenuous and it is setting them up for disappointment. ;)
Maybe a disclaimer would be appropriate. It's not like people are posting mean-spirited things all the time. Personally, I aim to give honest, constructive criticism :)
About showing yourself: there's a lot of reasons people don't want to post pictures around here. Especially pictures as their avatar.
First of all, google indexes all the pictures on this site and you could end up associating your mug with pretty much any trans-related search word. And plus, I just don't really want to see myself every time I scroll down a page here.
Secondly, frankly some people are creepy about the pictures you post here :-\. They hit on you or make vaguely sexual comments. I'd rather not be hit on just while browsing susan's. And in the first place not everyone is a lesbian. But just because, like, I don't make a pic of myself my avatar doesn't mean I haven't shown what I look like before.
I don't generally comment on other people's looks. I don't think I have a good judgement when it comes to that anyway.
And yes, some comments do come off as a bit catty on some pics when things could be pointed out in a bit more tactful manner and at times, it seems as if the commenter is deliberately trying to discourage someone. No clue on the reasons, could be something personal or they could just be complete bitches, who knows.
On the flip side, I don't care to see excessive cheerleading either, its disingenuous.
Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
In Reference To Do I Pass Threads
I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable. It seems a bit disingenuous and unfair how some seem to have no concerns about trampling all over another person's self-esteem or lack of it, just to be some sort of self appointed expert on what works and what doesn't. One woman here was so crushed that I thought she was about to harm herself.
I honestly could not agree more.
When people who never ever post any type of pic for themselves freely talk about others and how they do not pass or give grave criticism, the cynic in me thinks of them as a form of hypocrites. They can openly criticize another person but will never post their pic up. It seems very disingenuous when people do that. At the same time, I understand the privacy some people have when not posting their pics. However, I am human...and I freely get annoyed when someone acts like the Criticism master of pics when they have no pics of themselves. It feels odd to me. I am not saying my perspectives are right...I am saying how I feel about it.
On the other hand, I have an issue with people who will flat out lie to someone who does post a pic in a "do I pass thread." This is not anything against those who just started to transition or who has issues with public passing but I find it equally as troubling when I see people post "oh you pass" on pictures that clearly do not show people passing.
This can be dangerous too. It can give a false sense of recognition that they will have no issues of passing (hey...if everything thinks I pass...then I must pass), then they will go out in public and have an experience of being outed. This frustration only exemplifies because they were told for weeks on a transgender site they do pass.
Honestly, I give no concern to pics on passing or not passing. Pics are just one fraction of the whole picture. There are also other factors such as body language (overly pushing the feminine body language is just as bad as a quarterback body language), voice, presentation and overall appearance.
But yes, I agree that I find it irritating that people who have never posted a pic of themselves here feels the need to overly criticize someone else who had the courage to ask the question. ( I am not talking about people who do not post pics who gives helpful suggestions...I am talking about people who will just be ass nasty to someone because the pic poster doesn't pass, will brag how much prettier they are, etc., but then you never see what they look like. I get suspicious of overly bragging people like that).
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 15, 2012, 11:00:18 AM
"if you can't take the heat... stay out of the kitchen..." if you ask questions... expect to get answers... and not all of them will be positive.
Take care,
Auntie... Axélle
This ^ also applies to threads too!
Paradoxically, it seems that those who bitterly complain when they get "criticized" are the same self-rightous self-appointed "Susan's Sheriffs" who had "run out of town" or persecuted people they deemed "unethical ethical" or "fakes."
Quote from: A on April 15, 2012, 11:13:48 AM
As far as I know, on the Internet, the use of an avatar is the standard. I don't know about the others, but one of the reasons why I use the Internet so much is that I don't have to interact with others directly, because I hate my body.
Maybe it has become more frequent in the last 5-10 years with the advent of Facebook, but the publication of one's own picture is a very special decision that one takes assuming the risks. The day that my picture or real name become requirements on the Internet, I'll stop using it. I hate both of these, and suffer deeply when anyone says or sees any of them. So why the heck would I post it here to please other people, especially considering that it might put me in an unpleasant situation later?
Actually, rather than wanting people without a picture not to comment on others', it should be people who can't muster constructive criticism on their own pictures who shouldn't post them, at least not without a request to go easy on them.
I don't know if it's the sugar, but I feel really angry towards you at the moment. What sort of nonsense is this? Next, to partake in a political debate, we'll need to compete in an election? Need to paint a masterpiece to comment on an artist's work?
...
Being calmer, I can see that your intentions are to protect fragile members, but you are going the wrong way. It would do everyone a great disservice if everyone always posted very nicely and minimised any aspect that didn't work in a person's "do I pass?" picture. People asking for an opinion should be able to take one they don't like, and if they're too fragile, they should not ask for it, or ask it in a specific way.
That's ok you are welcome to feel anger towards me I have a thick hide, and I do think your comments concerning the intrusiveness of the Internet are certainly valid and ring a bell with me. This is the only social site I'm on and prefer to be under the radar for the most part too. I"m not picking on you, nor was I thinking of anyone specific when I posted this. I think that it's just really incumbent on us to be careful how we word our comments and still offer the corrective criticism that people are looking for. There are some very fragile types that post here, sometimes we need to read into what someone is looking for. Rather than (yeah, your hands are huge with square palms as are your feet, or you look like a 6' 4" 250 lb Bo Peep!) There are ways to say it gently and soften the impact without being hurtful or rude.
As far as posting your picture, i found recently that it is far too easy to have your picture associated with the words: TS, TG, TV, CD by virtue of your picture be associated with some other member Avatar name.
Hellot All!
I would like to offer my opinion as someone who just recently took the plunge of posting my first pics for critiques. When I posted I asked for brutal honesty. Heck, I didn't even care if people were mean! I was just interested in what people thought outside of my personal cheering squad at home. I got some positive some negative but all and all it was helpful and not mean spirited. With that being said, I could care less if i knew what anyone else looked like. Maybe its selfish, but my pics were the ones I was interested in. I never thought, "Oh such and such poster said a negative comment let me go see what they look like so I can make a mean comment back." I almost think knowing what the posters looks like might detract from me taking the feedback in stride. Just my opinion but I think what the commenters look like is irrelavent.
<3 Olive
Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 11:37:52 AM
I think that it's just really incumbent on us to be careful how we word our comments and still offer the corrective criticism that people are looking for. There are some very fragile types that post here, sometimes we need to read into what someone is looking for. Rather than (yeah, your hands are huge with square palms as are your feet, or you look like a 6' 4" 250 lb Bo Peep!) There are ways to say it gently and soften the impact without being hurtful or rude.
Couldn't agree more.
But I think that using whether someone displays their own image or an avatar is a bit of an over-simplification and doubt it makes any difference as to whether that approach is followed or not by each individual. Personally, I don't comment on those threads at all because I don't feel qualified to express an opinion either way. But that doesn't mean that if I did, anything I said should be taken as somehow less valuable, or have less weight, than someone else who displays their picture.
I've never posted to that thread because I don't want to offer my opinions quite yet and I have not begun HRT so I already know the answer to the question.
With that in mind, the thread is called "Do I Pass?" It is not "Flatter Me" or "Lie to Me About Passing." This is a discussion board and every member here has the right to offer their opinions.
When you post a picture to that thread you are putting yourself out there to the "world" and you should hopefully be getting an honest opinion. True there is no reason to be mean but if someone is looking for an opinion and they do not pass, they should not be coddled and told they do. That could be harmful in the long run.
I've read the posts a few times and I see girls that don't pass yet being lied to and told how gorgeous they are. If/when I post there I am going to do so with the hope that I'm going to be torn to shreds. It's going to be some time before I do. I want to be told what I am doing wrong and what I need to fix no matter the avatar.
What about those of us that have plenty of pictures out there, but don't actually use one for our avatar because the image for the avatar is more meaningful?
My avatar is just part of my leg sleeve, but I do in fact have pictures on this site. Personally I don't usually post on "do I pass" threads, but with a rule like that am I allowed to or not?
What about those of us that have plenty of pictures out there, but don't actually use one for our avatar because the image for the avatar is more meaningful?
That, among other things... some of us use an avatar as an avatar (shocking display of imagination I know) - I've posted pix from time to time, but I like my avatar. But if your posting it on a public board asking for opinions, then that's what your going to get. What's the deal? Like people "A" somehow know more, are more perceptive, more worthy of commenting? Poppycock. That's just bunk.
Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable.
I
try not to comment in those threads because theres no way you can tell how the recipient will react - even if they think they want the God's honest truth, it can still be hurtful hearing it, or learning that they have a hitherto unrealised 'imperfection'. And on a personal level, at this stage in my own transistion, I know I don't have the necessary experience and knowledge to critique.
Regarding the avatar/picture debate, I haven't posted a picture of myself up because:
1. I don't feel I am at the stage in my transistion where I look 'acceptable' (possibly not the right word). IRL I still appear to most as a male and that continues to upset me, so posting my mug on here - a place where I feel I can escape my current predicament - would only have a negative effect on my shaky burgeoning self confidence.
2. Also, I want members to identify me not as some (admittedly hawt :P) guy, but as the person I feel I am inside. Every day on hormones, I can see subtle changes so it probably won't be too long before you'll get a gazillion pics of me posing in all sorts of 'duck face' inspired poses. :P
3. And to round it off, I'm still in stealth and for the sake of my family, friends, job, university (basically everything) I haven't made any preparations for outing myself and dont want some randoms from the interweb revealing all just yet! :laugh:
X
PS Also agree with
Tekla - an avatar can just be an avatar, surely? Excluding Susans, of the other forums I frequent, theres maybe a handful of people who use a picture of themselves as avatars; close to 99% of them use avatars. Why should Susans be any different?
I did have a picture of myself as an avatar and now I do not.
Where does that leave me?
Quote from: Sephirah on April 15, 2012, 11:22:12 AM
Seriously?
I think it's slightly more disconcerting to propose that someone who doesn't use their own picture, for whatever reason, should somehow be disqualified from expressing an opinion. Which is, in essence, all it is. An opinion. And should be taken as such. No one's an expert on anything. And whether people use their own picture or an avatar... it wouldn't change the kind of person they are and the tact, or lack thereof, in their responses... other than to perhaps illicit a reaction of "Well look at you, what do you know?" Which is, lets face it, hardly conducive to forum relations.
I have to confess I find this more than a little disappointing. And really, how is it not trampling over the self-esteem of people who choose not to display a picture of themselves to even suggest it? That people comport themselves with sensitivity to others' feelings and a bit of forethought to how what they say will be taken... well, it's not something which can be forced on someone by saying "I have to show you mine because you've shown me yours." Something like that has to come from a person's own sensibilities and changed from within. Insensitive people will still be insensitive people whether one can see them being so or not.
As Axélle has mentioned, there are many reasons people don't use their own pictures, not all involve hiding behind an image because they think they'll be better off under a bridge somewhere. That doesn't make what they have to contribute any less valuable.
I agree that harsh comments and tactless, destructive criticism are detrimental, and can leave lasting effects on people. But such things have not been, and will not be limited solely to those people who don't display their own pictures in their posts.
Totally agree..
Also.. I quickly realized that transitioning/transitioned women are terrible at being able to tell if someone passes or not. I came to the conclusion that it is because they are comparing the one in question to themselves, not to other women. Also a critique done in cyber-space with a photo or photos isn't enough.
The good news is that most people are too busy going about their own lives to notice who is trans or not, unless you engage them or make a spectacle of yourself.
I had people tell me that I passed really good, some told me they would never have known, etc.,. I did okay around people who were busy with their own lives, for the most part.. Later I was able to afford FFS and BAS.
If an individual is willing to commit to transition and willing to work hard and make sacrifices and stick with it then he or she can basically accomplish whatever they choose. However it is important to remember that life is a journey, not a destination and perfection is special because it so seldom exists. Passing as your true sex is more about resolve than it is about scoring points. All star athletes started somewhere and train. I suppose some of us can just take a few pills and fall through the rabbit hole, the lucky ones. For most it is not that easy.
Fear is something to be overcome. Courage never feels courageous. If you never take a risk then you never take a risk and you can enjoy the comfort and security of regret till your dying day. Posting pics of yourself on an open forum like this (or any forum for that matter) can undo whatever you worked so hard for, sacrificed so much for and overcame such great fears for. Unless you are content to be trans for life. Most of us want to be who we really are and for some of us that means being women or men, not "different" or "special" or "courageous" or "trans".. Many of us just want our lives back and if we have managed to scrape something together for ourselves and choose to try to help someone else along.. we don't want our lives dashed apart because we reached out.
There are all kinds of people in the world and there are all kinds of people on Susan's. You have to take that into consideration when you receive an opinion here.
Quote from: Beverley on April 15, 2012, 03:52:22 PM
I did have a picture of myself as an avatar and now I do not.
Where does that leave me?
Somewhere Over The Rainbow??
I am beginning to feel like I need a checklist to get around on these forums - what I can say on this thread, what attributes I need to post on that thread.
Maybe a new feature should be a 'Trans passport' to score my suitability for anything I want to do here?
Quote from: Jamie D on April 15, 2012, 04:52:13 PM
Somewhere Over The Rainbow??
With Dorothy and the munchkins?
But we already know that you have a brain a heart and courage Jamie D! ;)
I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, is so old they have gray hair and have to wear glasses comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passablea lot younger and more in tune with what's going on in the real world and not at the AARP site. Do when even know when the last time those eyes were checked or the prescription updated? Do we need the Mrs. Magoo opinion on passing: "Oh my, that is a pretty big dog you have there."
No less valid.
No more either.
Quote from: pretty on April 15, 2012, 11:23:41 AM
You post in the pass thread because you want an opinion. Can't be too picky about it when you actually get it. And telling someone they pass when they don't, which a lot of people do, is only disingenuous and it is setting them up for disappointment. ;)
Maybe a disclaimer would be appropriate. It's not like people are posting mean-spirited things all the time. Personally, I aim to give honest, constructive criticism :)
About showing yourself: there's a lot of reasons people don't want to post pictures around here. Especially pictures as their avatar.
First of all, google indexes all the pictures on this site and you could end up associating your mug with pretty much any trans-related search word. And plus, I just don't really want to see myself every time I scroll down a page here.
Secondly, frankly some people are creepy about the pictures you post here :-\. They hit on you or make vaguely sexual comments. I'd rather not be hit on just while browsing susan's. And in the first place not everyone is a lesbian. But just because, like, I don't make a pic of myself my avatar doesn't mean I haven't shown what I look like before.
This so much^
I don't like those "do i pass?" threads anyway, they give people false hope. It takes alot more then a photo to prove you pass, anyone can pass in a photo with the right lightning and proper camera angle.
I had some photo's on here but I took them down. Honestly I don't want my picture on a trans site anyway lol. I don't have anything to prove and I don't need a confidence boost either. I passed in boy clothes no makeup before I went full-time which was just recently btw so it's not a big deal to me. :)
Quote from: Beverley on April 15, 2012, 05:03:18 PM
I am beginning to feel like I need a checklist to get around on these forums - what I can say on this thread, what attributes I need to post on that thread.
Maybe a new feature should be a 'Trans passport' to score my suitability for anything I want to do here?
Relax Beverley, you're a nice person and we all know that! I'm simply referring to those who for some reason are unable to comment on whether or not someone passes in a reasonably warm and civil manner rather than cutting them down and hurting their feelings.
Quote from: tekla on April 15, 2012, 05:08:38 PM
I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, is so old they have gray hair and have to wear glasses comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passablea lot younger and more in tune with what's going on in the real world and not at the AARP site. Do when even know when the last time those eyes were checked or the prescription updated? Do we need the Mrs. Magoo opinion on passing: "Oh my, that is a pretty big dog you have there."
There, I rest my case!
Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 05:06:46 PM
With Dorothy and the munchkins?
But we already know that you have a brain a heart and courage Jamie D! ;)
Maybe so, but I'd rather look like Dorothy that the Wicked Witch.
Quote from: Beverley on April 15, 2012, 05:03:18 PM
I am beginning to feel like I need a checklist to get around on these forums - what I can say on this thread, what attributes I need to post on that thread.
Maybe a new feature should be a 'Trans passport' to score my suitability for anything I want to do here?
Bev, you're a celebrity. You can bypass customs any time you want!
The orginal post immediately reminds me this (http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=1842). :eusa_doh:
While I'm sure you have the best of intention. I just don't think you're right. :eusa_naughty:
It's very simple really, disqualifying someone from posting their opinion in a thread based on whether they use a real pic. of themselves or an avatar as their avatar would violate a portion of ToS Rule #10
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
Quote from: Keroppi on April 15, 2012, 07:37:48 PM
The orginal post immediately reminds me this (http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=1842). :eusa_doh:
While I'm sure you have the best of intention. I just don't think you're right. :eusa_naughty:
Hilarious and true.
Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
In Reference To Do I Pass Threads
I think it's a bit disconcerting to see someone who hides behind an avatar rather than posting their own photo, can comment on the looks of someone who is earnestly looking for approval as passable. It seems a bit disingenuous and unfair how some seem to have no concerns about trampling all over another person's self-esteem or lack of it, just to be some sort of self appointed expert on what works and what doesn't. One woman here was so crushed that I thought she was about to harm herself.
The world isn't fair. and some people really don't pass.
If someone posts their pictures, and asks the public forum for an honest opinion of their passability. From me at least, I will give them one. I don't want to hurt them, honestly I don't, and because of that I usually just refrain from posting all together if I don't have anything positive to say. But I won't lie to them. I wouldn't want to be lied too in their position so I won't say something I don't think is true.
I fail to see how any of that has anything to do with me posting my pictures or not. I elect not too for personal security. I think it's a bad idea. But once someone else has done it I might as well give them the truth, if I believe that's what they honestly want.
It would be a lot easier if everyone passed and was happy, but that's not the way of the world, the world sucks, life sucks, and all that teen angst stuff.
Do you honestly think people would be better off if we only gave compliments? I agree we should be tactful, respectful of others feelings, and careful in what we say. But outright dishonesty I fail to see how it helps them. But then I'm not a believer that passing is about confidence.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on April 15, 2012, 08:57:54 PM
Do you honestly think people would be better off if we only gave compliments? I agree we should be tactful, respectful of others feelings, and careful in what we say. But outright dishonesty I fail to see how it helps them. But then I'm not a believer that passing is about confidence.
Agreed.
Telling people they pass when they obviously don't is just setting that person up to fail. I really don't think we should even have those two pass threads. Look if you really want to know if you pass go out in front of cisgender people and if they don't laugh and give you weird looks then you passed if not then ask what gave you away so you can improve yourself if possible.
Trans people judging other trans people on their looks is probably the worst idea ever lol.
(100th post~)
I post on the 'do I pass' thread critiquing people, yet there's only one picture of 'myself' on the whole site. Due to a whole bunch of different factors, transsexuality being just one of them, I barely identify with my body at all. I would draw how the actual me looks, but I can't draw.
Quote from: Shantel on April 15, 2012, 11:21:46 AM
I suppose that you are quite right about all aspects. I don't pass most of the time and to be honest it isn't all that important to me anyway. And like you I'm opinionated and known to be confrontational at times, suppose all that comes with age and experience! Just the same I get upset for the younger ones here whose feelings get crushed. We all have some sort of mental problems if we're honest, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing a counselor for gender dysphoria because we'd have all the answers. I concern myself about those that take criticism to heart and wind up harming themselves because of it.
Hug, I do like what you say :)
I am with you on your points made.
So let's see what else gives. Eh?
I actually started having opinions from the day I gave-up mother's milk...
At that stage mostly on food though, as in what I like and what I don't like :)
Note: not ONE opinion posted here, other then yours and mine, is sporting a real life avatar... makes you think, doesn't it?
Must be I'm a beauty queen of old - or surrounded by some VERY shy folks?
Of course all those other reasons not to forget...
Axélle
I've posted a few pics in those threads, just to see what kinds of replies I get.. I don't really know why I bother though.. I don't get laughed at or funny looks in public.. Cis gendered people interact with me as if I am a woman.. In short, to cis gendered people I pass.. And I know some of you are going to suggest that a lot of it is just people being too polite to say anything.. I doubt it, society seems to be programmed to make fun of 'different' people..
As far as whether people without pics should comment? I say feel free, I post pics because I want to.. I don't care if someone works out my past.. But if you don't post pics, I'm sure you have a reason for doing so, it doesn't make your opinion any less valid..
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 15, 2012, 09:50:41 PM
Hug, I do like what you say :)
I am with you on your points made.
So let's see what else gives. Eh?
I actually started having opinions from the day I gave-up mother's milk...
At that stage mostly on food though, as in what I like and what I don't like :)
Note: not ONE opinion posted here, other then yours and mine, is sporting a real life avatar... makes you think, doesn't it?
Must be I'm a beauty queen of old - or surrounded by some VERY shy folks?
Of course all those other reasons not to forget...
Axélle
Or maybe the rest of us are more security conscious.
I don't post pictures of myself here, or anywhere else online, I don't even have a facebook page.
I've been on the internet socially for most of my life. I know how much trouble a dedicated person can make for you just through the internet. Hell I've been on the other side of it once or twice.
Compartmentalization and need to know, it's the name of the game, I'm sure it all sounds paranoid and crazy, but I don't want to be one of those victims who naively say "it could happen to you too" to justify how big of a target they made themselves.
I don't put pics on at this time for safety reasons. I live in a small community that while some of the population would be great, others would not. There was a local fundraiser for the women's shelter that involved cross-dressing and there were death threats against the staff, contestants, etc. I also work in a very visible role in the community which works with at-risk clientelle who often have violent criminal histories, substance abuse, and mental health issues so I'm not so bold at this point as to put my picture up although it has been tempting to put it up and remove it within 24 hours or something.
I try not to flame anyone, but I have been surprised a few times. Sometimes the smallest thing can be become large for someone. For instance, I commented on maybe changing a certain garment (after stating quite honestly how amazing someone looked) and found out it greatly upset them because it was their prized shirt from X that was all they had, etc. So what someone's triggers are and the degree to which someone responds may not be proportional to the initial comments which can often be well intended and kind. Of course, not all commentators are so well intentioned. There was one person who I swear could have been a rep for FFS and was rather ummmm... strong in their language. I think almost everyone on the thread went berserk whenever they wrote.
Also, I think that Kelly_Aus's point and posts are really great. I love that she posts her pics and quite rightly points out that she passes and yet time after time someone will point out this or that feature. Here is what I think... We are primed to be concerned about passing as we identify with the gender and want to be seen and received as matching that gender. Because we are so concerned about doing so, we are already searching for anything that might show that we are not. As a result, we look at ourselves with a desire to see female but always picking out the male traits we desire to be gone. When someone then posts in a passing thread, we are already doing the same negative list in our heads (not always writing it to the participant) of whatever features they have that register at all as male (on mtf threads) rather than looking at the whole face. A face is more than the sum of its parts. To me, some of the most beautiful women have some of the strangest facial features but as a whole they look stunning (might have a high forehead, square chin, or thick eyebrows and so on).
See, now my opinion is more important than other people's opinion. I'm special.
All Animals Are Equal
people with avatars with their own pictures are more equal than others
No less valid.
No more either.
Quote from: tekla on April 16, 2012, 12:13:15 AM
See, now my opinion is more important than other people's opinion. I'm special.
All Animals Are Equal
people with avatars with their own pictures are more equal than others
No less valid.
No more either.
LOL... Everyone knows that those with fairies for avatars have a much more important opinion and are even more special :laugh:
Quote from: Laura91 on April 16, 2012, 01:24:43 AM
Platypus defeats your fairy power.
*gain 100 points*
Mermaid FTW
Quote from: Laura91 on April 16, 2012, 01:24:43 AM
Platypus defeats your fairy power.
*gain 100 points*
That's a puggle, not a real platypus.. :P
I'm sexy and I know it! >:-)
I post pics of me in all my gory in my avatar. EXCEPT when i use Miri. But then again, she is my fursona and is still me.if requested I'll post a photo... Since transitioning, I don't mind taking them at all. As you might have noticed. :P
Can I just say that in all walks of life people need to be comfortable with what they do. I'm totally comfortable being me and I do not give a damn what people think about me. Other people from every dimension of life may feel different, and that is fine as well.
We need to respect each other.
It's pretty basic really.
Cindy
Quote from: kelly_aus on April 15, 2012, 10:02:07 PM
I've posted a few pics in those threads, just to see what kinds of replies I get.. I don't really know why I bother though.. I don't get laughed at or funny looks in public.. Cis gendered people interact with me as if I am a woman.. In short, to cis gendered people I pass.. And I know some of you are going to suggest that a lot of it is just people being too polite to say anything.. I doubt it, society seems to be programmed to make fun of 'different' people..
As far as whether people without pics should comment? I say feel free, I post pics because I want to.. I don't care if someone works out my past.. But if you don't post pics, I'm sure you have a reason for doing so, it doesn't make your opinion any less valid..
This x1000
Many of us pass the so call cis gender test and have no need to display ourselves, also what of us who have good jobs and no one knows.
Out ourselves on a trans site and all that may entail, endanger themselves through easy web searches on pics.....that deserves a thread called being very dumb
Poor thread Op, if you are comfy with everyone knowing then fine opinions count whoever you are though.
Quote from: Shantel on January 21, 2012, 08:30:29 PM
I am genetic male and present that way for the most part. My name here is my preferred nom de plume. There was a time several years ago that I was transitioning M2F, had orchiectomy, spent years on female HRT. Suddenly one day after i was called ma'am one time too many, I went home and threw my diamond ear piercings in the jewelry box and had my spouse give me a buzz cut. I quit HRT for two years and got sick. A human being needs a hormonal base and with that gone it became evident that my thyroid had almost flatlined. I found help from a smart naturopathic doctor who put me on a thyroid booster and back on female HRT. I do a couple of hours at the fitness center five days a week, 40 minutes cardio and the rest doing lots or reps with light weight for toning. I am six-pac fit and 5' 7" and keep the C sized boobs anchored down with light compression bras so I don't make such a big statement in male mode. Yes, I know some would say I must be a nut case but I'm happy and take responsibility for my own decisions and don't have any regrets. Have a nice relationship in progress, love my woman!
We all have different needs. I read this, (your first post here) and from knowing your situation a little better I can see how your take on things might be a little different from the norm.
I don't think it's got anything to do with whether someone has photos of themself on the site. Some people on here are just plain nasty with their comments and it's not on. I've seen some awful things said on this site. It's why I hardly ever post here, I just don't want to be a part of it.
I hate to see the sugar-coated posts that are prevalent too, telling people they pass perfectly when clearly they don't, but the spiteful comments are a million times worse and completely unnecessary.
Can I say something VERY LOUDLY, if a post upsets, let a Mod know. We can't read all the posts. You have to report stuff.
Thank you
Cindy
I never post on those threads, one I'm totally - like way beyond 110% - convinced, (because I work in a totally fake industry that relies heavily on image and photos) that you can't really answer that question based on a photo.
Way too many factors involved in that decision - I seem to remember like 17-18 (right in that ballpark) that we use without thinking about it in gendering people - that a self-photo, at a weird angle, with bad lighting on a cell phone camera taken so poorly that the only thing I can really tell is how bad you need to get the maid back to clean up where you live, or ... more often than not ... has been digitally manipulated to look 'better' is going to provide any 'proof'.
Second, I've been going out, in public to trans events, participating in the 'community', and living in an area with lots, and lots, and lots of out trans persons and I've been doing all of that since the late 70s/early 80s, and that level of over-familiarity may well render me so dazzled that I can't tell anything anymore, or so picky that no one would pass. One of those for sure. But I am aware that I'm coming at it from a different perspective than people who've never been with other trans persons ever.
Third. I get to do fashion/beauty shows a couple times a year and have for like, forever. I'm very aware that some people - perhaps rarely, but still a huge bunch - take photos that are far more stunningly awesome then the real thing, 3-D person. And that most of us look a little bit better in person then we do in photos.
Oh yeah. if a post upsets, let a Mod know... or just do what critically thinking people do. Skip it and read the next one.
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 15, 2012, 09:50:41 PM
Note: not ONE opinion posted here, other then yours and mine, is sporting a real life avatar... makes you think, doesn't it?
Or perhaps as both Tekla and I said we use the avatar as an avatar. My avatar is an idealized image. It is representative of my and my wife's marriage. Our relationship is much more important to me than how I look. I us my fae because she chose to use hers first.
I've got plenty of pictures on this site. I have a thread in the FFS sub forum that has tons of pictures.
So what does it make you think?
Quote from: kelly_aus on April 15, 2012, 10:02:07 PM
I've posted a few pics in those threads, just to see what kinds of replies I get.. I don't really know why I bother though.. I don't get laughed at or funny looks in public.. Cis gendered people interact with me as if I am a woman.. In short, to cis gendered people I pass.. And I know some of you are going to suggest that a lot of it is just people being too polite to say anything.. I doubt it, society seems to be programmed to make fun of 'different' people..
Yes, asking other MtF people somewhere in cyberspace to critique them as to whether or not they pass isn't a great idea. I know that there are some looking for validation and others in need of complements here but the real test is to move about normally in public places with everyday people, they don't scrutinize you with the same critical eye as do other MtF people.
Quote from: kelly_aus on April 15, 2012, 10:02:07 PM
As far as whether people without pics should comment? I say feel free, I post pics because I want to.. I don't care if someone works out my past.. But if you don't post pics, I'm sure you have a reason for doing so, it doesn't make your opinion any less valid..
The thread really isn't about a photo image or an Avatar, it's really a veiled inquiry about attitudes and motives. Some of the responses were really quite thoughtful and others were immature, intended to derail the conversation from the original question and marginalize me with denigrating remarks. I'm not surprised because the thread was bound to provide a platform whereby those types could expose themselves and be treated circumspectly by those who prefer a civil conversation.
...it's really a veiled inquiry about attitudes and motives... marginalize me with denigrating remarks.
Well I don't know about 'veiled' - you were hardly subtle in not 'inquiring' and indeed 'marginalizing' a whole bunch of people because to question their 'attitudes and motives' (while somehow implying that your's are beyond reproach and more valid) based on a criteria as idiotic as what you have posted for an avatar is something that deserves to be denigrated.
I'm not surprised because the thread was bound to provide a platform whereby those types could expose themselves and be treated circumspectly by those who prefer a civil conversation.
Nice try, but... the people in this thread are exactly and precisley NOT the people you were originally talking about. We are not the ones posting negative stuff in the do I pass threads, we're just the ones calling you on denigrating others while elevating yourself.
You know, I've looked at a few of the guys threads and... I'm starting to like being over there. we tend to get a bit catty quite a bit! it's like our old male selves rear their heads again and turn it into a contest.
Instead of fighting and accusing someone of this and that, how about we support one another. Because you're not going to find better support out in the real world!
I have no problems with someone using anything but their own photo and helping me with my appearance. I understand having a self-image issue. It's a big part of why we are here together. But please, stop fighting.
Quote from: tekla on April 16, 2012, 09:57:25 AM
.... we're just the ones calling you on denigrating others while elevating yourself.
I will post my own criticisms if I feel the need. In any case I think I am done with this thread.
Quote from: Keaira on April 16, 2012, 10:08:13 AM
You know, I've looked at a few of the guys threads and... I'm starting to like being over there. we tend to get a bit catty quite a bit! it's like our old male selves rear their heads again and turn it into a contest.
I quite agree. This attitude has been on the increase across many threads and is one of the reasons (not the only one) that I decided to cut down my involvement here.
Quote from: Keaira on April 16, 2012, 10:08:13 AM
You know, I've looked at a few of the guys threads and... I'm starting to like being over there. we tend to get a bit catty quite a bit! it's like our old male selves rear their heads again and turn it into a contest.
^^ THIS
Sadly, I do not even tell my friends about this site because I would be embarrassed as soon as they looked in the MtF section of these forums. One can certainly get a bad vibe about MtF trans simply by opening and reading a few threads here.
Quote from: Keaira on April 16, 2012, 10:08:13 AM
You know, I've looked at a few of the guys threads and... I'm starting to like being over there. we tend to get a bit catty quite a bit! it's like our old male selves rear their heads again and turn it into a contest.
Instead of fighting and accusing someone of this and that, how about we support one another. Because you're not going to find better support out in the real world!
This was what I was trying to point out in my thread that got locked. Although I might have went a tad overboard with my choice of words. :D
I don't like fighting either but sometimes it seems that certain people just drag you into one no matter how nice you are. ::)
Yeah I'm starting to like the guy's section more, they're much more laid back and not so uptight.
Oh and there's some cute men over there too! :)
o.O
I wasn't expecting my words to be noticed like that. They came from the heart. and lack of sleep.
Quote from: Laura91 on April 16, 2012, 10:34:30 AM
:o
Well!!
Uh!!
Pfft!!
It still defeats your mermaid because I said so!
:D :P
Hey! I'm the mermaid. ;)
And I'm Foxy! :P
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsofurryfiles.com%2Fstd%2Fthumb%3Fpage%3D335067&hash=206c481179b87768e43491ef0420354db797892a)
(My own avatar I made btw)
Quote from: Keaira on April 16, 2012, 11:57:32 PM
And I'm Foxy! :P
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsofurryfiles.com%2Fstd%2Fthumb%3Fpage%3D335067&hash=206c481179b87768e43491ef0420354db797892a)
(My own avatar I made btw)
Looks good. I can draw stick figures...
yeah, this thread was thoroughly hijacked. ::)
Quote from: Annah on April 17, 2012, 07:25:47 AM
yeah, this thread was thoroughly hijacked. ::)
Yes it was when you consider that it was a simple question and a simple answer would have sufficed! There were some thoughtful responses by those who elicit a genuine female attitude. Then there were others who unfortunately took it as a personal attack and feeling threatened went into an alpha dog dominant mode and felt the need to lash out by making nasty comments about my looks, my age and grey hair, the fact that I wear glasses because they were unable to physically harm me at the moment. What came out of this thread was more than was necessary, however as you read through the thread you will notice that each respondent's reply exposed either a female passing mindset or a masculine one. This isn't a criticism, just an observation of something some of us could think about and work on.
the only thing I can tell ya is this website isn't the best support site out there. Nor is it the worst.
You have some people here who gets off on putting other people down. A false sense of confidence and intelligence if you want my opinion on it. They feel better about themselves when putting others down (whether it was on this thread or another).
It could be worse...this site could have been like 4chan.
Some people here just post to piss off people...they offer no good feedback on anything other than putting others down. There are some people here who give very valuable advice. I listened to the good valuable ones and try to ignore the ignorant ones. Hope that helps!
I don't go negative here, ever, but there seems to be something happening here that is becoming more and more prevalent.
Some women seem to be under the impression that there opinion counts for more. This topic, which was nothing more than trolling from the start and we all fell for it, proves the point. It wasn't a question, it was a comment and declaration. I don't show my face therefore my opinion doesn't count. As I said previously I don't even post to the thread in question but I have every right to and that right should not be altered in any way because I'm not ready to show myself.
This is part of a bigger issue that has popped up here and an issue that drove me here from a previous board a year ago. A small group sees their opinions as more valid and their experience is the ONLY experience to have. I made a post a few weeks ago asking a question about what it was like when you finally let your female side come out after years of repression. A few women didn't understand the question properly but instead of asking me my meaning, I started getting diagnosed (by people that have no business or training doing so) as having multiple personality disorder and other such afflictions. This couldn't be farther from the truth. I am actually a well adjusted human being. I never got my question answered or started the conversation I wanted to have because the group was taken over by people like that. I wound up locking the topic before it got out of hand and my frustration continued to rise.
This is supposed to be a community where people can talk about their experiences and get questions answered. That's why I come here. I've had so many questions answered and learned so much here and feel very prepared to begin transition later this summer. If it wasn't for this group, I would not have even taken the step of seeing a GT. Just because I don't have any pictures yet does not make my opinion any less valid. Just because I have not begun HRT yet, does not make my opinion any less valid.
You're all no better than me and I am no better than you.
I'm not sure what you meant to gain by posting something like this? Everyone coming to your side and agreeing with you? Now that you saw it didn't happen, that doesn't mean the group was hijacked, it just means people don't agree with your assessment. In fact, I've seen many cogent arguments from both sides before it started getting silly (and yes I was part of turning it that way).
Honestly, I think this topic should be locked before it really does go down hill and people who really do look for fights start posting.
Let's be supportive for each other but honest.
"Should Stealth Posters Recuse Themselves?"
English is NOT my first language, but I do find it quite startling how this sentence is/was twisted into "Should Stealth Posters be Prevented to Post their Opinion" even at quite some length by the last poster...
Just look below and you might get some idea just why this is so...
topic locked!