So I've had yet another incident of harassment at my school. This is the report I sent to Equality Michigan describing what happened:
had an incident before and I was told to get back to you if I have another problem.
(For starters I am a female to male transsexual. I have not legally transitioned yet, but I have been on hormones for 5 months.)
Today at lunch I was purchasing something and the lunch lady replied "Here you go ma'am." and I replied "sir" suggesting correction. She went off with "No, you're ma'am in my book." and I said okay and walked away. My friend was behind me in line as I walked away and also as I was walking away, another staff member who works under the vice principal I believe walked over to the lunch lady. The lunch lady started going off on him about what just transpired between her and myself. My friend (as well as other students) were around and overheard the conversation. The lunch lady went off again saying "I know that little girl didn't just try to put me in check. *and yelled "Ma'am" as I was walking away* Now if I told her to pull her pants down and show me her dick she wouldn't have nothing to say" and the man who works under the vice principal just laughed at her degrading remark. I immediately went to the office to tell the principal, but she was busy so I told the head security guard who was there. She went and told the principal what happened and I wrote out a statement.
They told me to go to class and my next class was gym. So after gym I got to the bathrooms in the front because he doesn't want me to use the locker rooms (they're gross anyways so I don't care). As I'm going to the bathroom I see the security guards and over hear one of them say "That's [birthname], she's going to the bathroom to change. She's taking testosterone." So I'm in the bathroom changing and the head security guard comes in and tells me that her Chief said that I can't use that bathroom until I legally have "that" changed as she motions her groin area. I replied something like "Why? I legally have the right to use this bathroom. I have the papers in my bookbag." and she tells me to write out another statement saying that and to copy the papers, but until then I can't use that bathroom, use the unisex one.
I really feel defenseless right now, like I don't know what I can do. But I know one thing is for sure, I will continue to use the bathroom of my choice. They will have to physically drag me out. I'm just like a can of mixed emotions right now . . anger, sadness, confusion. I don't even know if the lunch lady and that guy got in trouble at all for what happened. I just don't know ...
*****Update***** APril 25, 2012
Here's an update on the situation kinda:
My mom talked to the principal over the phone and the principal said that they are collecting statements from the lunch lady and students who witnessed (idk how they plan on finding out who the students were because I kept it anonymous). She added that the behavior of the lunch lady is "not tolerated." Whatever that is supposed to mean. I did see the lunch lady working today though.
The principal went to to say that "There has been an issue with Jacob using the men's bathroom. We have already set up accommodations for him (the unisex bathroom), however he has been using the men's student bathroom. The problem is that male students and staff have complained about how this makes them uncomfortable. In order for me to allow him to use that bathroom I need documentation of him having his sex changed legally. " and just left it at that.
This is really making my blood boil. I've been trying to find the actual amendment made to something called the "Elliott Larsen Civil Rights Act of 1967" that allows use of public accommodations regardless of gender identity. So far I can only find the new that my city has banned anti-transgender discrimination (http://www.pridesource.com/article.html?article=29887 (http://www.pridesource.com/article.html?article=29887))
******Update******** April 26, 2012
I got another email from Equality Michigan today.
"Hi Jacob:
Here is the municipal code that was recently passed that would apply in this situation:
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=10649 (http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=10649)
If it's OK with you, ___ can send a consent form so we have permission to talk with the school on your and your mother's behalf.
We agree with you that bathroom use should not require some "proof" or legal gender marker change, and that the code's inclusion of "gender identity and expression" means that a legal gender marker change is not necessary, but as far as we know no direction has been given to schools in DPS on this issue. What we can do is draft a letter, citing this ordinance, and send it to the school. It is very difficult to get a gender marker change in Michigan so this requirement is way too difficult for most people to meet, and you shouldn't have to go through a complicated legal maneuver just to use the bathroom. Once we work out the consent form, we can talk some more."
The specific codes are http://library.municode.com/showDocumentFrame.aspx?clientID=10649&docID=1 (http://library.municode.com/showDocumentFrame.aspx?clientID=10649&docID=1) and http://library.municode.com/showDocumentFrame.aspx?clientID=10649&docID=4 (http://library.municode.com/showDocumentFrame.aspx?clientID=10649&docID=4)
***********Update********** May 2, 2012
My mother and I are going to have a meeting with someone from Equality Michigan and ACLU next Thursday to outline what we will address during a conference with my principal and gym teacher (he insists that I can't compete with the other males because it is a liability since I am legally female.)
***********Update********** May 7, 2012
Today the whole lunch lady thing was addressed.
The principal pulled myself, the lunch lady, and the lunch room adviser aside and told her pretty much "You need to work in a professional manner at all times and keep any personal commentary to yourself. Whatever Jacob chooses to do, or be called is his personal choice and we are not to judge him. In fact all that's even necessary is 'Thank you, have a good day, etc.', not ma'am or sir is even necessary."
After she said that, the lunch lady got all offended and the principal gave her her turn to talk. So she said to me basically "Have I ever disrespected you in these years that you've been here? (I said yes, but I waited my turn for anything more) I have only known you as female since you've been to this school." Then she gave her story of what happened which was:
"I said thank you ma'am and she told me 'I am a man, not a woman' (and some other stuff I don't remember, but it wasn't true) then I replied 'Well I've only known you as a girl since you've been here' (and some other stuff again)."
Finally she went on to say "After that somebody ran over to her and told her what I said to someone else. I am an adult and was talking to another adult and that is my business . . . blah blah blah." Basically she was implying that she's grown and no one should have been listening to her side comments.
I just gave my account of what happened after that and of course she objected and gave her made up story of how she oh-so-politely replied to my simple suggestion of "sir". After that I was allowed to leave and the principal stayed in the room with the lunch lady and adviser and I'm not sure what happened after that.
tldr;
The principal straight up put her in her place. The lunch lady put some words in my mouth that I said "I am a man, not a woman blah blah blah". Then she implied that because she is an adult my friend should not have been listening to her disrespectful comments about myself. (I guess that because she's an adult she thinks it's okay to disrespect people.)
*************Update************** May 10, 2012
Great update:
Today my mother and I had a little conference at Equality Michigan with their director of victim services, the other worker with victim advocacy, and the director of programs from Affirmations (another LGBT group/resource center in Michigan). I just want to start by saying that they were soooo friendly, enthusiastic and ready to help. We all sat down at a conference table and they already pretty much had a plan laid out as to how we will approach the entire school situation.
Before we got all into what we will do however, we discussed everything that was going on with the school so everyone was on the same page. Basically they came to the conclusion that they believe the school is in violation to city ordinances because they cover gender identity, which is defined in city ordinances as gender expression regardless of the gender on one's birth certificate. (Also, we learned that the director of victim services is a lawyer, so she knows her stuff hah.)
Anyways, after all of that they let us know what the plan is going to be.
1.) They're going to team up with an LGBT attorney from the ACLU and write a letter to the principal including the city ordinances (I'm not exactly sure what else is going to be included). They (and me) hope to have this done by Monday. They also are going to try to set up some type of sensitivity training workshops for the staff at my school so they can have a better understanding of how to deal with LGBT students; gender identity/expression to be emphasized. Also they plan to contact the Emergency Financial Manager/ some other type of supervisor over the public school system and have a conference with them, my mother, myself, principal, security, and anyone else I feel should go.
2.) If my school does not react positively to all I outlined above, or if they choose to take legal action, the next step would be just that. The director was telling us that we could take it as far as federal court (I think) if it got to that point and the constitution could get involved because of something that would protect me in the constitution. . sorry there were so many terms going on and I could only absorb so much lol. Basically, we can take it as far as they want to legally and we would still have a good fight to put up.
They were really just emphasizing to my mother and I about huge community that is there to help us out, which is so freakin' cool. We were also informed of another ftm student at a school in my district who is going through a similar problem, but in his case he is having issues with the students not staff. So we are going to probably get in contact with them. Soooo yeah, a lot was discussed, I can't recall it all right now, but it was all good. I'm a ton more hopeful with the whole situation now that I know I have so much support behind me.
I will continue to keep this thread updated as much as possible. I'm not going down without a fight this time guys, so you don't either if you can help it! There are people out there to help.
Wow.
If I was you, I would try to sue the school for intentional emotional distress and harassment.
But that's just me.
There is no way I would tolerate such b.s.
Also, the way the people who are working at the school are talking about you as if they're middle school children, not professionals.
Honestly, if the lunch lady asked me to show her my penis and I was a born a bioguy like I was supposed to be, I would have nothing to say either because that's just plain sexual harassment.
Again, your school sounds really out of line.
Have you told your parents about any of this?
Quote from: JasonRX on April 24, 2012, 07:08:04 PM
Wow.
If I was you, I would try to sue the school for intentional emotional distress and harassment.
But that's just me.
There is no way I would tolerate such b.s.
Also, the way the people who are working at the school are talking about you as if they're middle school children, not professionals.
Honestly, if the lunch lady asked me to show her my penis and I was a born a bioguy like I was supposed to be, I would have nothing to say either because that's just plain sexual harassment.
Again, your school sounds really out of line.
Have you told your parents about any of this?
I completely agree.
I told my mom about it immediately while I was in school. We might sue, we need more information on attorneys and stuff though. I just got off of the phone with Equality Michigan and she's going to review my case tomorrow and call my mom with more information while I'm in school.
Quote from: conformer on April 24, 2012, 07:14:00 PM
I completely agree.
I told my mom about it immediately while I was in school. We might sue, we need more information on attorneys and stuff though. I just got off of the phone with Equality Michigan and she's going to review my case tomorrow and call my mom with more information while I'm in school.
Yeah, your whole situation just makes me sick.
I'm sorry you have to go through any of this, dude.
Hopefully, things will start looking up for you soon.
I would recommend you transfer schools as well, while still suing this one for severe malpractice and verbal abuse of a student, but that could be difficult if your town doesn't give you the option of much of anywhere else to go.
What a bunch of jerks. I'm so sorry you have to go through this bud. I'm glad you aren't backing down about it though. You do whatever it takes to make them recognize your rights. You should be treated exactly the same as any other student...it shouldn't be a big deal to go pee! I hope things start getting better and these adults are educated on how wrong their actions are. Keep your head up and keep being strong!
What the hell is wrong with people? That's like...sexual harassment, if you think about it. These people are adults, why are they ganging up on a kid? You and your parents should look into taking legal action. You're on T, you have the right to use that bathroom, imo. If people are going to degrade you and treat you like a circus freak, they need to be put in their places. Now.
That is tough man. I definately would try to sue. I'm sorry that you have to go through that. Just to point something out about the lunch lady....
"Now if I told her to pull her pants down and show me her dick she wouldn't have nothing to say"
She's using a double negative which clearly shows her intelligence level is below that of a rock.
Holy ->-bleeped-<- conformer, that's horrible. When I read that I got so angry for you. These people are supposed to be there to help you and keep you safe, not instigate it themselves. If they can't even perform what is the most basic aspect of working in a school, then they need to get the hell out of there. The things those people said are awful, they treated you as if you were some subhuman zoo exhibit. I would definitely follow this up with your principal at the very least and make sure the lunch lady and those security guards get what they deserve. Taking legal action is also a good idea, I hope that works out well for you.
I don't know how I would react in that situation. I'd most likely come out of it the same as you, though. Anger is obvious. And then just a deep pit of sadness, that people can really be so insensitive. I hope this turns out okay for you, man...
Quote from: JasonRX on April 24, 2012, 07:08:04 PM
Wow.
If I was you, I would try to sue the school for intentional emotional distress and harassment.
Some states have criminal harassment charges, but in regards to civil, it's really hard to prove it and what damages were suffered as a result, such as emotional distress. While his lunch ladies (and the security guards) behavior and conduct would seem extreme and outrageous to a reasonable person, the burden of proof would fall on the OP's mother. In this situation the OP's mother would need to immediately file a grievance with the school and his school district. In fact, the best thing would be for the OP's mother to go see the principal first thing tomorrow morning and schedule an appointment sometime this week to meet with the Superintendent of his district. Ponying up with an attorney right now would be like throwing money into a pit, it's best to not put them on the defensiveness right out the gate and most likely the lunch lady doesn't have any union protections and her employment could be easily terminated (or she could be moved to a different school til her contract was up at the end of the school year). As for the security guards, they may hold some type of state certification to work in that capacity that they could lose for inappropriate behavior and conduct. School districts rarely use resources to protect lower-level support and auxiliary staff in these types of situations.
That is absolutely ridiculous! If you can find a way, please sue. Your school need to know how wrong their treatment of you is, and they need to see repercussions for the actions their staff and security personnel are taking.
I'm so sorry to hear that you've had to go through this, and that these problems with your school are ongoing. Stay strong in what you believe though, and remember that we're all behind you. :)
That makes my blood boil. I...oh I need to punch something now. >~<
Suing might be more trouble than what it's worth. Those are pretty tough cases to get going and win.
Might be able to get lunch lady fired or some sort of disciplinary action though. I mean if you and your parents have an agreement with the school and principals that they're to address you as male, etc. then everyone in the school should abide by that. If they don't, then they should be under some sort of disciplinary action (all the way up to firing). If there isn't such an agreement in effect - like it's just papers from a therapist or something, then something more official needs to be hashed out.
I clicked on this thinking that it was going to be a rant about other students harassing you. Low and behold it's the adults who've turned into the children.
This is horrible. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.
I just spent a long time reading what I could find about laws and school policies in Michigan, and the whole place seems honestly a bit hostile. Certain cities do have protections, but even the anti-bullying sections of the school codes I found mostly make vague reference to violence and the importance of law enforcement officers. Wow.
Plus the first news stories that popped up are both negative.
Rep Paul Scott Blows Smoke on Transgender Michigan
http://www.bilerico.com/2010/01/rep_paul_scott_blows_smoke_on_transgender_michigan.php (http://www.bilerico.com/2010/01/rep_paul_scott_blows_smoke_on_transgender_michigan.php)
Michigan teacher suspended over anti-gay punishment
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-11-16-michigan-teacher-suspended-gay_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-11-16-michigan-teacher-suspended-gay_N.htm)
I'm glad you're documenting this, and I hope Equality Michigan helps you. You might could try contacting Lambda Legal for advice if you plan to take legal action.
Quote from: Epi on April 24, 2012, 08:42:35 PM
In fact, the best thing would be for the OP's mother to go see the principal first thing tomorrow morning and schedule an appointment sometime this week to meet with the Superintendent of his district. Ponying up with an attorney right now would be like throwing money into a pit, it's best to not put them on the defensiveness right out the gate
Yeah, she's going first thing when I get to school to speak with the principal and what you say about the attorney makes sense, so we're waiting until further notice from EM to take any legal measures. The last thing we'd want to do is pay an attorney for nothing when we can barely afford it already lol.
Quote from: Felix on April 25, 2012, 12:24:33 AM
This is horrible. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.
I just spent a long time reading what I could find about laws and school policies in Michigan, and the whole place seems honestly a bit hostile. Certain cities do have protections, but even the anti-bullying sections of the school codes I found mostly make vague reference to violence and the importance of law enforcement officers. Wow.
Plus the first news stories that popped up are both negative.
Rep Paul Scott Blows Smoke on Transgender Michigan
http://www.bilerico.com/2010/01/rep_paul_scott_blows_smoke_on_transgender_michigan.php (http://www.bilerico.com/2010/01/rep_paul_scott_blows_smoke_on_transgender_michigan.php)
Michigan teacher suspended over anti-gay punishment
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-11-16-michigan-teacher-suspended-gay_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-11-16-michigan-teacher-suspended-gay_N.htm)
I'm glad you're documenting this, and I hope Equality Michigan helps you. You might could try contacting Lambda Legal for advice if you plan to take legal action.
I'm realizing just how hostile it is too in the big picture. I honestly only have issues in school and that seems to be where most of the discrimination issues happen in the state
Awwh I'm glad your mom is on your side!!
Nothing scarier than an angry mom protecting her kids.
o.o
When I was in high school, we had grad pictures and the lady wouldn't let me wear the male outfit (dress shirt and tie)
So I was forced to put on the girl blouse or whatever.
Told my mom, and she showed up at school the next day..
Needless to say they let me wear whatever the heck I wanted during retakes xD
But yeah, I agree with what everyone said.
It's just horrible and I have no other words for it.
No actually wait...disgusting could work too.
v_v
Here's an update on the situation kinda:
My mom talked to the principal over the phone and the principal said that they are collecting statements from the lunch lady and students who witnessed (idk how they plan on finding out who the students were because I kept it anonymous). She added that the behavior of the lunch lady is "not tolerated." Whatever that is supposed to mean. I did see the lunch lady working today though.
The principal went to to say that "There has been an issue with Jacob using the men's bathroom. We have already set up accommodations for him (the unisex bathroom), however he has been using the men's student bathroom. The problem is that male students and staff have complained about how this makes them uncomfortable. In order for me to allow him to use that bathroom I need documentation of him having his sex changed legally. " and just left it at that.
This is really making my blood boil. I've been trying to find proof that Detroit banned discrimination on public accommodations regardless of gender identity. So far I can only find the news that my city has banned anti-transgender discrimination (http://www.pridesource.com/article.html?article=29887)
Man, talking about "harassment at school" my immediate assumption before reading was that the harassment would be coming from other students, not school employees and officials.
I can't really say what I would have done in that situation with the lunch lady. I have always been extremely non-confrontational, so I probably would have just dismissed her as one of the infinitely many inferior intellects which go through life bumping into me and which are to be ignored.
Really why does she have to make a statement? If she doesn't want to call you sir why doesn't she just call you nothing? Just take the !@#$ing money and say thank you, and mind her own god damn business. God, some people are just too stupid to live.
Quote from: conformer on April 25, 2012, 06:10:20 PM
My mom talked to the principal over the phone and the principal said that they are collecting statements from the lunch lady and students who witnessed (idk how they plan on finding out who the students were because I kept it anonymous). She added that the behavior of the lunch lady is "not tolerated." Whatever that is supposed to mean. I did see the lunch lady working today though.
Nothing may come of the schools investigation and they may try and just sweep it under the rug by handling the matter internally and not notifying the district or Superintendent (who ultimately has the final say). If it's really important to you, your mother should keep up on them, but down the road there may be a bigger fish to fry, so you should consider that as well. A follow-up call though never hurt. "If my son was African-American and the lunch lady called him a racial slur, we wouldn't be having this conversation because you would have already properly dealt with it. If my son was Jewish and she started insulting him about his yarmulke, I wouldn't still be addressing this issue with you, because you would have taken care of it instead of treating my son like a second class citizen."
Quote from: conformer on April 25, 2012, 06:10:20 PM
The principal went to to say that "There has been an issue with Jacob using the men's bathroom. We have already set up accommodations for him (the unisex bathroom), however he has been using the men's student bathroom. The problem is that male students and staff have complained about how this makes them uncomfortable. In order for me to allow him to use that bathroom I need documentation of him having his sex changed legally. " and just left it at that.
Your principal is having to appease not just you and your mother, but other individuals as well. He's erring on the side of caution and probably considers this to be the reasonable middle-ground. Providing you with separate accommodations keeps you out of the girls restroom (which you want) and out of the boys restroom (which some male students and staff want). I can see why he asked for legal documentation, it removes any liability for him, the school and district. If someone complained after he had documentation of your sex changed it'd fall on deaf ears, but until then he's going to have to listen to them.
I have to agree with EPI on the principal and the men's bathroom part. To my knowledge, a lot of states require you to have legally changed your sex (at least on your ID, if not with surgeries) to use the appropriate bathroom and it is because others can legitimately complain about it. If they've made accommodations for you to use the unisex bathroom, I would stick with that until you actually do get the gender marker changed.
Get yourself one of those little voice recorders that you use for taking notes. keep it in your pocket. Next time they get abusive, record it. you'll have more weight than he said/she said. ;)
Quote from: Keaira on April 25, 2012, 11:19:41 PM
Get yourself one of those little voice recorders that you use for taking notes. keep it in your pocket. Next time they get abusive, record it. you'll have more weight than he said/she said. ;)
This is a good idea.
That really sucks :( And I dont know why they are getting so crazy about the toilet issue. When I went to school they didnt even care! One of my teachers once even saw me come out of the male toilets and just smiled and said nothing. I really hope that you are able to do something :)
Quote from: Andy8715 on April 25, 2012, 11:57:30 PM
This is a good idea.
I was going to suggest that as well but since Michigan is a two-party consent state it's kind of one of those gray areas. Even though this inappropriate conduct is occurring, it's not considered blatantly unlawful. There are circumstances where parents of disabled children in two-party consent states have put recorders in their kids pockets to catch abuse and misconduct, but that's really the only legal circumstance I can think of where it's acceptable.
As a step short of sueing, would a lawyer's letter do any good? That would have an implied threat of legal action if they don't get their a***e into gear.
Karen.
Quote from: justmeinoz on April 26, 2012, 05:03:23 AM
As a step short of sueing, would a lawyer's letter do any good? That would have an implied threat of legal action if they don't get their a***e into gear.
Karen.
If the OP is unsatisfied with the outcome of this recent situation then his mother should take the matter directly to the Superintendent. Involving a civil attorney in the matter prematurely would be expensive and could poison the outcome of greater issues at hand. However, if the situation goes sour it wouldn't be a bad idea for the OP's mother to meet with a civil attorney for a free 30 minute consultation to see what her options are. In my honest opinion though, unless the OP suffers a physical injury, these events occur daily (with the administrations full knowledge) and/or criminal charges are separately brought against any of these individuals, I don't see a civil attorney representing them pro bono or on a contingency; they would expect full payment for representing them.
The OP's mother could contact the ACLU, but I don't think at this point they would involve themselves either, not until something severe happens (which shouldn't have to happen at all, but it seems that's the only way to bring about change).
I am not particularly well versed on Michigan codes or statues, but I would advise the OP's mother to specifically look into her states criminal code regarding "Disturbing the Peace/Breach of the Peace" and at which level (city/county/state/federal) she would need to file a civil tort claim on behalf of her son for civil rights violations and discrimination, it would greatly help if there were previous legal cases in the OP's state setting favoring legal precedent. Sadly these things are a very long and tedious uphill battle complicated by bureaucratic processes. But Michigan does have laws specifically stating that schools and their staff have a legal duty to prevent student bullying when it's brought to their attention. Now, this type of staff misconduct towards students isn't student bullying but could very well be interpreted as child abuse and that's not a term administrators like to hear often, especially when they had full knowledge of it.
Quote from: Epi on April 26, 2012, 07:38:36 AM
If the OP is unsatisfied with the outcome of this recent situation then his mother should take the matter directly to the Superintendent.
That's what we planned on doing, however I got an email today from Equality Michigan saying that they can talk to my school on my mother and I's behalf after she signs a consent form. This is what the email said:
"Hi Jacob:
Here is the municipal code that was recently passed that would apply in this situation:
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=10649
If it's OK with you, ___ can send a consent form so we have permission to talk with the school on your and your mother's behalf.
We agree with you that bathroom use should not require some "proof" or legal gender marker change, and that the code's inclusion of "gender identity and expression" means that a legal gender marker change is not necessary, but as far as we know no direction has been given to schools in DPS on this issue. What we can do is draft a letter, citing this ordinance, and send it to the school. It is very difficult to get a gender marker change in Michigan so this requirement is way too difficult for most people to meet, and you shouldn't have to go through a complicated legal maneuver just to use the bathroom. Once we work out the consent form, we can talk some more."
The specific codes are http://library.municode.com/showDocumentFrame.aspx?clientID=10649&docID=1 and http://library.municode.com/showDocumentFrame.aspx?clientID=10649&docID=4
I was starting to lose a bit of hope in them leaving me alone about using the men's bathroom, but after this email that hope has been restored :D. Hopefully it stays simple and it doesn't get all bad like you said Epi.
And thank all of you of the supportive/helpful replies :)
Wow, it's really great that they're going to help you! :D
I was going to say actually, how are the other students at your school? Like, would any of them be willing to support you in this, or report the offensive behaviour to the principal on their own behalf? Kind of like 'As a fellow student, I can't believe how ____ is being treated, and I'm offended by this. He hasn't done anything to warrant that kind of behaviour, and if an adult were treating me in such a way I would report them for child abuse.' etc. It might put more weight to your arguments if those in authority can have it put in such a perspective.
Anyway, I hope these people can help you out! Please keep us posted on how things progress! :)
Quote from: Epi on April 26, 2012, 04:50:14 AM
I was going to suggest that as well but since Michigan is a two-party consent state it's kind of one of those gray areas. Even though this inappropriate conduct is occurring, it's not considered blatantly unlawful. There are circumstances where parents of disabled children in two-party consent states have put recorders in their kids pockets to catch abuse and misconduct, but that's really the only legal circumstance I can think of where it's acceptable.
According to the almighty Wikipedia,
QuoteMichigan's eavesdropping statute seems to put it into the two-party category, but the courts have ruled that in Michigan, a party may record their own conversation without the consent of any other parties but cannot grant that right to a third party.
They cite this source, among others:http://www.rcfp.org/can-we-tape/michigan (http://www.rcfp.org/can-we-tape/michigan)
So, he can do it?
Quote from: Keaira on April 30, 2012, 01:53:37 AM
So, he can do it?
If I were him I would. He can run the audio by a lawyer before trying to use it for anything, and he may be further protected by the fact that public schools are generally understood to be safe and to operate transparently.
Gosh I hadn't seen this. I really feel for you and have had a few incidents myself, , as has my boyfriend (latest one for him was just last night).
I dunno what it is, but it seems as a mtf if someone slips up, and I correct them, they're generally embarrassed. With my ftm boyfriend, however, it's completely different...they act like this ignorant monster you encountered. I just don't know why that is.
I am glad you and your mum are pursuing a course of action to invoke change. I had a couple of times where I should have done something similar, one at work especially, but I was too much a coward. Good on ya!
Quote from: Felix on April 30, 2012, 01:43:06 AM
Michigan's eavesdropping statute seems to put it into the two-party category, but the courts have ruled that in Michigan, a party may record their own conversation without the consent of any other parties but cannot grant that right to a third party.
This would apply to telephone conversations. You can record yourself having a conversation over the phone with someone, but without their consent you can't record their part of the conversation, only your own.
Some states only apply the two-party consent in situations where an individual has a "reasonable expectation of privacy", some don't. Some states have had lower courts make filming of police officers and other public employees illegal (and legal).
You can record someone without their knowledge in two-party consent states, but only in very specific situations. (ex. Amber Frey recorded the conversations she had with Scott Peterson who was convicted of murdering his wife and unborn child. Normally that wouldn't have been admissible in court, but in situations where illegal activity has occurred, its been permitted.)
Quote from: MiaOhMya! on April 30, 2012, 02:24:55 AM
Gosh I hadn't seen this. I really feel for you and have had a few incidents myself, , as has my boyfriend (latest one for him was just last night).
I dunno what it is, but it seems as a mtf if someone slips up, and I correct them, they're generally embarrassed. With my ftm boyfriend, however, it's completely different...they act like this ignorant monster you encountered. I just don't know why that is.
I am glad you and your mum are pursuing a course of action to invoke change. I had a couple of times where I should have done something similar, one at work especially, but I was too much a coward. Good on ya!
When I correct people about my gender, I don't get a good response. Some, don't even use my first name. Granted, this is mostly at work. Although I can't even get my wife to use the right pronouns... frankly, it's a big reason I want to quit my job. And it's been a big argument starter between my wife and I.
So it isn't limited to FtM's.
Quote from: Epi on April 30, 2012, 02:42:13 AM
This would apply to telephone conversations. You can record yourself having a conversation over the phone with someone, but without their consent you can't record their part of the conversation, only your own.
Some states only apply the two-party consent in situations where an individual has a "reasonable expectation of privacy", some don't. Some states have had lower courts make filming of police officers and other public employees illegal (and legal).
You can record someone without their knowledge in two-party consent states, but only in very specific situations. (ex. Amber Frey recorded the conversations she had with Scott Peterson who was convicted of murdering his wife and unborn child. Normally that wouldn't have been admissible in court, but in situations where illegal activity has occurred, its been permitted.)
I'd still record if it were me. Otherwise it's just his word against theirs.
Quote from: Felix on April 30, 2012, 01:50:49 PM
I'd still record if it were me. Otherwise it's just his word against theirs.
Fruit of the poisonous tree. Not only could you get in trouble for doing so, whatever you obtained would be inadmissible. You can't violate someones civil rights because you believe they violated yours. In situations like this, you have a friend present as a witness to corroborate your side.
There's no reasonable expectation of privacy in public places, which is the single greatest factor in determining the legality of such issues. Overhearing a conversation in public, just as recording a TV guest's "off screen" anecdotes...cannot be considered eavesdropping because one cannot reasonably expect absolute privacy in public places.
Quote from: MiaOhMya! on April 30, 2012, 06:32:07 PM
There's no reasonable expectation of privacy in public places, which is the single greatest factor in determining the legality of such issues. Overhearing a conversation in public, just as recording a TV guest's "off screen" anecdotes...cannot be considered eavesdropping because one cannot reasonably expect absolute privacy in public places.
Only a handful of states interpret it to include public places of gathering with absolutely no expectation of privacy. While it should be the standard in all 50 states, it's not. There were some recent rulings at the federal level regarding the filming of police officers, but that's completely different.
I hope you can hold the line about using the male restroom. Giving in to their request could expand into other gendered spaces and activities. Also, forcing you to use the non-gendered restroom has the high likelihood of outing you to students who would otherwise not know your private information.
Not sure if it's still the topic of debate, but I don't think I'll even have the opportunity to record another incident even if I wanted to. The lunch lady has been acting all nice like nothing ever happened, probably because she knows her job is in jeopardy.
Quote from: MrTesto on April 30, 2012, 07:23:41 PM
I hope you can hold the line about using the male restroom. Giving in to their request could expand into other gendered spaces and activities. Also, forcing you to use the non-gendered restroom has the high likelihood of outing you to students who would otherwise not know your private information.
Those are the main reasons why I am pressing forward. For one, I don't want this to be an issue for future students at my school who have similar backgrounds; not only the bathroom situation, but also the hostility from teachers and like you said, they may expand other gendered spaces and activities. I don't want these few teachers and staff to think that it's just okay to continue to be complete jerks towards certain preferences of students either. Also, like you said, using the unisex bathroom brings the likelihood of outing me to other students which is why I really prefer not to use it now, especially because it's right in open view of the office.
Also, just a small rant here (not related to anyone's posts):
People keep telling me that this is just life. I am aware that this is life and you have to deal with crappy situations like this, however, if there is a chance to make a change and make that crappy situation better not only for you, but for people who may find themselves in the same position as you in the future . . then I'd like to take that chance . . I'd rather not settle for the crappy situation & accommodations made if possible.
Update:
My mother and I are going to have a meeting with someone from Equality Michigan and ACLU next Thursday to outline what we will address during a conference with my principal and gym teacher (he insists that I can't compete with the other males because it is a liability since I am legally female.)
Quote from: conformer on May 02, 2012, 05:43:28 PM
Update:
(he insists that I can't compete with the other males because it is a liability since I am legally female.)
I think that's bull ->-bleeped-<- since you are on male hormones.
Quote from: Andy8715 on May 02, 2012, 05:44:38 PM
I think that's bull ->-bleeped-<- since you are on male hormones.
My point exactly man :(
wow i would have flipped a ->-bleeped-<-, that is crazy disrespect. for some reason all the staf at my school bother the other trans kid about stuff and not me it might be because i pass better. also the whole recording this stuff subject, doesn't your school have cameras mine has them everywhere.
A liability? For serious? You're on testosterone, which is bringing you on par with your cis male classmates. The guy needs a reality check.
Quote from: Zerro on May 02, 2012, 10:38:37 PM
A liability? For serious? You're on testosterone, which is bringing you on par with your cis male classmates. The guy needs a reality check.
He probably has no set of guidelines to go off of and isn't looking to "wing" it in this situation. If it was written in a district rule book somewhere that the OP could have access or participate in these things, his principal would most likely go along with what the book said. But since the "book" doesn't even cover this, he's put in a very odd predicament. This situation is actually a lot for anyone to absorb, there's so many big issues and the OP's principal is pretty much the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to educators. Complaining to the janitor of a company about how bad they are is just as pointless as complaining to the principal about district and state educational policies, or a lack of.
There was an article back in 2011 regarding the NCAA issuing new guidelines for trans athletes at the collegiate level. It's safe to say, if it's just reaching the college level, it probably hasn't been incorporated at very many high schools yet.
"Under the new policy, trans women may play on women's teams as long as they have been taking hormone blockers for one year, and trans men may play on men's teams if they are on testosterone therapy. Trans men who have started hormones may not, however, play on women's teams."
http://campusprogress.org/articles/ncaa_issues_new_guidelines_for_transgender_student_athletes/ (http://campusprogress.org/articles/ncaa_issues_new_guidelines_for_transgender_student_athletes/)
Today the whole lunch lady thing was addressed.
The principal pulled myself, the lunch lady, and the lunch room adviser aside and told her pretty much "You need to work in a professional manner at all times and keep any personal commentary to yourself. Whatever Jacob chooses to do, or be called is his personal choice and we are not to judge him. In fact all that's even necessary is 'Thank you, have a good day, etc.', not ma'am or sir is even necessary."
After she said that, the lunch lady got all offended and the principal gave her her turn to talk. So she said to me basically "Have I ever disrespected you in these years that you've been here? (I said yes, but I waited my turn for anything more) I have only known you as female since you've been to this school." Then she gave her story of what happened which was:
"I said thank you ma'am and she told me 'I am a man, not a woman' (and some other stuff I don't remember, but it wasn't true) then I replied 'Well I've only known you as a girl since you've been here' (and some other stuff again)."
Finally she went on to say "After that somebody ran over to her and told her what I said to someone else. I am an adult and was talking to another adult and that is my business . . . blah blah blah." Basically she was implying that she's grown and no one should have been listening to her side comments.
I just gave my account of what happened after that and of course she objected and gave her made up story of how she oh-so-politely replied to my simple suggestion of "sir". After that I was allowed to leave and the principal stayed in the room with the lunch lady and adviser and I'm not sure what happened after that.
tldr;
The principal straight up put her in her place. The lunch lady put some words in my mouth that I said "I am a man, not a woman blah blah blah". Then she implied that because she is an adult my friend should not have been listening to her disrespectful comments about myself. (I guess that because she's an adult she thinks it's okay to disrespect people.)
Great update:
Today my mother and I had a little conference at Equality Michigan with their director of victim services, the other worker with victim advocacy, and the director of programs from Affirmations (another LGBT group/resource center in Michigan). I just want to start by saying that they were soooo friendly, enthusiastic and ready to help. We all sat down at a conference table and they already pretty much had a plan laid out as to how we will approach the entire school situation.
Before we got all into what we will do however, we discussed everything that was going on with the school so everyone was on the same page. Basically they came to the conclusion that they believe the school is in violation to city ordinances because they cover gender identity, which is defined in city ordinances as gender expression regardless of the gender on one's birth certificate. (Also, we learned that the director of victim services is a lawyer, so she knows her stuff hah.)
Anyways, after all of that they let us know what the plan is going to be.
1.) They're going to team up with an LGBT attorney from the ACLU and write a letter to the principal including the city ordinances (I'm not exactly sure what else is going to be included). They (and me) hope to have this done by Monday. They also are going to try to set up some type of sensitivity training workshops for the staff at my school so they can have a better understanding of how to deal with LGBT students; gender identity/expression to be emphasized. Also they plan to contact the Emergency Financial Manager/ some other type of supervisor over the public school system and have a conference with them, my mother, myself, principal, security, and anyone else I feel should go.
2.) If my school does not react positively to all I outlined above, or if they choose to take legal action, the next step would be just that. The director was telling us that we could take it as far as federal court (I think) if it got to that point and the constitution could get involved because of something that would protect me in the constitution. . sorry there were so many terms going on and I could only absorb so much lol. Basically, we can take it as far as they want to legally and we would still have a good fight to put up.
They were really just emphasizing to my mother and I about huge community that is there to help us out, which is so freakin' cool. We were also informed of another ftm student at a school in my district who is going through a similar problem, but in his case he is having issues with the students not staff. So we are going to probably get in contact with them. Soooo yeah, a lot was discussed, I can't recall it all right now, but it was all good. I'm a ton more hopeful with the whole situation now that I know I have so much support behind me.
I will continue to keep this thread updated as much as possible. I'm not going down without a fight this time guys, so you don't either if you can help it! There are people out there to help.
P.S
I didn't include names because I don't know if they'd approve, but if you want to know what organizations are helping me:
http://www.equalitymi.org/ (http://www.equalitymi.org/)
http://www.goaffirmations.org/site/PageServer (http://www.goaffirmations.org/site/PageServer)
That is so cool conformer congrats!
Quote from: Malachite on May 10, 2012, 06:09:13 PM
That is so cool conformer congrats!
Thanks man! I forgot to mention that they are going to help me with the name change process too
Yes, that's totes awesome dude! I hope it doesn't have to come down to legal action, but I really hope that things continue to get better for you. School should a place where you can learn in peace, not be harassed by staff or students over your gender. :/
This is absolutely great news conformer!!! I'm so glad you've found people who can help you, and who will clear up this whole mess! :P
Please do keep us updated; it's great to see something actually being done to remedy this! :D