Ok so I'm starting to think I'm not on the right regiment.
My hormone level are ok, my oestrogen is in female range and testosterone in female range, but I'm only on oestrogen, no anti-androgen.
I've seen youtube vids and read stories about how girls who were on oestrogen for a while and then starting an anti-androgen they started to see much bigger affects.
I have practically zero boobs and been on hormones for nearly 7 months :/
Do you guys think that maybe not having an anti-androgen is causing not as good results even though my hormone levels are in the female range ?
thanks x x
Quote from: Erin H on May 04, 2012, 10:17:27 AM
Ok so I'm starting to think I'm not on the right regiment.
My hormone level are ok, my oestrogen is in female range and testosterone in female range, but I'm only on oestrogen, no anti-androgen.
I've seen youtube vids and read stories about how girls who were on oestrogen for a while and then starting an anti-androgen they started to see much bigger affects.
I have practically zero boobs and been on hormones for nearly 7 months :/
Do you guys think that maybe not having an anti-androgen is causing not as good results even though my hormone levels are in the female range ?
thanks x x
Well duh! You need an anti androgen to block all that testosterone and leave more of the estrogen unopposed. Ask your doc for sure though.
I can attest to seeing major developmental differences taking estrogen with or without an AA. While on premarin only I had some development after a few months. Years later with an anti-androgen I had far better results.
Also, the popular HRT regime these days seems to be first a few months on spiro then add estrogen
I've been on estrogen, progesterone, and an anti-androgen for about 11 months now and my "breasts" are still quite small. My daughter jokingly calls them lower-case "a" cups.
Based on all that I've read, breast development could be a slow process, taking anywhere from 2 to 4 years before there are very noticeable results.
Quote from: Erin H on May 04, 2012, 10:17:27 AM
Ok so I'm starting to think I'm not on the right regiment.
My hormone level are ok, my oestrogen is in female range and testosterone in female range, but I'm only on oestrogen, no .
I've seen youtube vids and read stories about how girls who were on oestrogen for a while and then starting an anti-androgen they started to see much bigger affects.
I have practically zero boobs and been on hormones for nearly 7 months :/
Do you guys think that maybe not having an anti-androgen is causing not as good results even though my hormone levels are in the female range ?
thanks x x
Couple of things to consider. If your avatar is your picture, then it tells me that you are young and so you should have responded a little bit more stronger to the estro; your picture tells me that you may be in the "thin" side, which can interfere with breast development. How big are the females in your family?
More important point to consider are: a) a normal XX female testosterone level do overlap with normal XY male levels. So you will have to look at the specific ranges, and not only for total testosterone, but more important for free testosterone; and b) like wise, look at the specific estrogen values, again there is an overlap between the male and female normal ranges.
Most current practitioners always prescribe an anti-androgen together with estrogen, but there cases when this is not recommended. You need to discuss this points with you endo. I will advice adding finasteride in addition to spiro and estrogen
PS. I am not a doctor, I just stayed at the Holiday Inn Express.
Don't stress. I think we see the same doc and he likes to give you a fair crack on estrodial first to see if this alone can put you in the female hormonal range. AA can be hard waring on the body. I felt exactly like you. I am 7.5 months and have an A cup. However u are very slim and it may take a long time for boobs to kick in.
Last month I started an AA after having to reduce my E slightly due to a few side effects. DrC prescribed Triptorelin 3 monthly implant injection. It basically chemically castrates you. Turns off your T production. Ask him next time you see him if you continue to be worried.
With my limited knowledge, I -think- that since the goal of an antiandrogen is to reduce your androgen levels to the female range, if you're already there, it shouldn't necessary to add it.
But on the other hand, since (I think) antiandrogens block not only the production, but also the action of androgens, perhaps blocking the effects of the little there is would help. After all, your T levels are within adult female levels, but what you need is probably a teenage or pre-teenage girl's levels. I could theoricise that since there is generally very little testosterone in girls of that age (or so I think), it wouldn't take much to halt "pubertal" changes. Maybe.
Quote from: A on May 04, 2012, 11:32:49 AM
With my limited knowledge, I -think- that since the goal of an antiandrogen is to reduce your androgen levels to the female range, if you're already there, it shouldn't necessary to add it.
But on the other hand, since (I think) antiandrogens block not only the production, but also the action of androgens, perhaps blocking the effects of the little there is would help. After all, your T levels are within adult female levels, but what you need is probably a teenage or pre-teenage girl's levels. I could theoricise that since there is generally very little testosterone in girls of that age (or so I think), it wouldn't take much to halt "pubertal" changes. Maybe.
TESTOSTERONE: Males 44-148 pg/ml, Femalale 16-55 pg/ml
ESTRADIOL: Males 0.5-2.2 pg/ml, females 1.3-3.3 pg/ml
In the early days they didn't have blockers at all and just prescribed mega doses of estrogen, so evidentially it does work.
Having said that I had been on some form of blocker or another (bicalutamide/cyperone/spiro) for around a year and a half before I started E. Just the blockers along gave me nipple widening and minor breast growth, but I was very overweight and that may have been T into E via fat cell aromatase. And then I was one half a normal dosage of E for 9 months before I jumped up to what I take now. I had a few months of soreness with the low dose, but then it settled out and then I had another few months of soreness when I started the full dose. Some people get more growth than others just like ciswomen.
Even after all that I was a small B/big A and part of that was just because I weighed so much. Wait and see where you end up in a few years, but don't give up hope if it doesn't meet your expectations. Implants can look and feel normal and I'm exceptionally happy with the BA I had last December.
Quote from: Joanna on May 04, 2012, 11:20:14 AM
Don't stress. I think we see the same doc and he likes to give you a fair crack on estrodial first to see if this alone can put you in the female hormonal range. AA can be hard waring on the body. I felt exactly like you. I am 7.5 months and have an A cup. However u are very slim and it may take a long time for boobs to kick in.
Last month I started an AA after having to reduce my E slightly due to a few side effects. DrC prescribed Triptorelin 3 monthly implant injection. It basically chemically castrates you. Turns off your T production. Ask him next time you see him if you continue to be worried.
Yeah i think we do see the same doc (in London right), and thank you for telling me about that implant thing, I will ask him about it and see what he says :)
I have been on siterone, estradiol and progesterone. Over a few years have grown nice size B's, it just takes time. Talk to your Dr about adding anti androgen.
Hi all
Thanks for all the replies :-)
Firstly yes I am very slim, so im guessing that kinda accounts for some limited boob :/
But the problem is my female relatives all have rather big (well massive) boobs so I was hoping genetics could help me out :/
Also when do you lot think it would be best to get a BA if my natural boobs is not sufficient enough ?
thanks again
Quote from: Erin H on May 04, 2012, 03:13:49 PM
Hi all
Thanks for all the replies :-)
Firstly yes I am very slim, so im guessing that kinda accounts for some limited boob :/
But the problem is my female relatives all have rather big (well massive) boobs so I was hoping genetics could help me out :/
Also when do you lot think it would be best to get a BA if my natural boobs is not sufficient enough ?
thanks again
I've seen girls on youtube who've gotten a BA right after their first year mark on HRT and they look just fine.
But it's recommended to wait atleast 2.
Quote from: JoeyD on May 04, 2012, 03:26:17 PM
I've seen girls on youtube who've gotten a BA right after their first year mark on HRT and they look just fine.
But it's recommended to wait atleast 2.
Do you know if its possible to get BA but then your natural boobs suddenly start to grow ?
Cos i don't want to get a BA and then suddenly my boobs grow and I end up being like a GG cup O.O
It is possible. The size would not be suuuuch an issue, since an implant can be removed relatively easily. The problem would be that if your breasts have a growth spurt after you've had an augmentation, fat and glandular tissue and such probably won't react very well to the implant. It's probably going to either look weird, either halt development, or some other consequences. I think it would be quite a big deal if that happened.
And well, you don't say you have "small breasts", but rather undeveloped breasts. I think that even if you're destined to having super small breasts, they should still reach at least Tanner stage 4. Even the older, unlucky ones with especially incomplete development generally reach stage 3 or 4.
A small lump of fat as you describe it is not a small stage 4 or 5; it's a much earlier level of development. I think you're due to have more development, even if you need a change in your HRT regimen for it.
I've read a few stories in the past of having a surprising, sudden growth spurt in the breasts after months of stalling or very slow development.
So, yeah, wait until your breasts have had a stable, more uniform shape for many months, at least, I guess, before deciding on breast augmentation.
Give it more time. Like closer to 2 years and you'll have a much better idea of what HRT can and can't do for you. If both your E2 & T levels are in the "normal female" range... you are doing everything you can. Just let time and the meds do their job.
Quote from: Joanna on May 04, 2012, 11:20:14 AM
Last month I started an AA after having to reduce my E slightly due to a few side effects. DrC prescribed Triptorelin 3 monthly implant injection. It basically chemically castrates you. Turns off your T production. Ask him next time you see him if you continue to be worried.
Quote from: Erin H on May 04, 2012, 03:10:46 PM
Yeah i think we do see the same doc (in London right), and thank you for telling me about that implant thing, I will ask him about it and see what he says :)
HRT implants have been discontinued and no longer licensed in the U.K. I used to be on Estrodiol implants but now the NHS have stopped licensing it and I can no longer get them now.
Im not sure what Triptorelin (Decapeptyl) is? but it's probably another anti androgen like Zoladex (Goserelin)? I'd like to get in touch with your doc as I've never tried it before. Is your doc private or NHS?
Hi
Triptorelin (Decapeptyl) is indeed a similar drug to Goserelin. I think it works on the same basis. I am not a doctor so i cannot actually advise. It was suggested to me by fellow MtF friends that this was a very effective AA. 3 monthly injections mean it is hassle free. No pill, no patch. The only warning I would place is that initially it does escalate your T levels for a week or so. I found the emotional reaction very distressing. I could hardly sleep for a few days and felt generally awful. However now (3 weeks in) I feel a lot better. Apparently this reaction only happens with the first injection. T becomes quickly suppressed and remains that way.
The doctor is see is in London and is private. He instructs my NHS GP and I get it done at my local surgery on the NHS. This injection though is commonly given via the GIC in London that is also NHS.
It would be worth discussing with your own doctor. Not advisable without supervision as this is strong stuff and works on the pituitary gland in the brain.
Size of your breasts are determined by how many oestrogen receptors (genetics) you have. There's no way to add or subtract these....
... That said - Breast tissue is composed of 80% fat.
Cake anyone? ;D
Love
Jen
OXOXOXOXO
PS - You look great ... Maybe just enjoy the ride? Bound to be more to come!
Quote from: Joanna on May 06, 2012, 11:23:55 AM
Hi
Triptorelin (Decapeptyl) is indeed a similar drug to Goserelin. I think it works on the same basis. I am not a doctor so i cannot actually advise. It was suggested to me by fellow MtF friends that this was a very effective AA. 3 monthly injections mean it is hassle free. No pill, no patch. The only warning I would place is that initially it does escalate your T levels for a week or so. I found the emotional reaction very distressing. I could hardly sleep for a few days and felt generally awful. However now (3 weeks in) I feel a lot better. Apparently this reaction only happens with the first injection. T becomes quickly suppressed and remains that way.
The doctor is see is in London and is private. He instructs my NHS GP and I get it done at my local surgery on the NHS. This injection though is commonly given via the GIC in London that is also NHS.
It would be worth discussing with your own doctor. Not advisable without supervision as this is strong stuff and works on the pituitary gland in the brain.
Decapeptyl is gonadotropin-releasing hormone(GnRH) agonist, and as such it works by blocking the relase of LH and FSH (form the pitutary gland). The consequence of supresing LH release is a drastic supression of testicular testosterone production. So, yeah, no special magic here; some HRT protocols do call for a regime of GnRH agonist in combination with E
I don't really see the point in a GnRH/LH antagonist after puberty... Wouldn't it just be like a more complicated AA then? Can someone help me understand?
I'll try
T is produced in the testes, not just during puberty but for the duration of a mans life. The GnRh analogue works by shutting down the production of the T in the testes. This means that T is not released and therefore will discontinue to affect and influence the body in an androgenic way. No more emasculation. Other AA work by reducing the effect of the T on our bodies and influencing active levels within our system. The GnRH analogue stops the release of T to begin with.
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I think this is the basic idea.
Quote from: A on May 07, 2012, 10:33:19 AM
I don't really see the point in a GnRH/LH antagonist after puberty... Wouldn't it just be like a more complicated AA then? Can someone help me understand?
GnRH is secreted by the hypothalamus of males and females, a soon as the brain is developed (4-6 weeks, and continues to be secreted therafter through life. The GnRH secretion is controled via feed back by the levels of esxint testosterone and/or estraidiol. GnRH acts on the pitutiary glans where it causes the secretion of FSH and LH. LH in turn stimulates the lydig cells in the testicles to secrete testosterone. So, if you block (antagonize) the effects of GmRH you prevent testosterone secretion.
So, what are the side effects of GnRH antagonist, well here is the "loundry list" for decapetyl. Compare visasvis to those of spiro. Note that this are the side effects in XX female, will digg out for the XX males
Information specific to: Decapeptyl SR 3mg powder and solvent for suspension for injection vials when used in Endometriosis.
Side-effects
A medicine is only made available to the public if the clinical trials have shown that the benefits of taking the medicine outweigh the risks.
Once a medicine has been licensed, information on the medicine's effects, both intended and unintended, is continuously recorded and updated.
Some side-effects may be serious while others may only be a mild inconvenience.
Everyone's reaction to a medicine is different. It is difficult to predict which side-effects you will have from taking a particular medicine, or whether you will have any side-effects at all. The important thing is to tell your prescriber or pharmacist if you are having problems with your medicine.
Very common: More than 1 in 10 people who have Decapeptyl
•decreased libido
•difficult or painful sexual intercourse
•headaches
•heavy or painful menstrual periods
•hot flushes
•mood changes
•ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome
•ovary enlargement
•pelvic pain
•sleeping problems
•sweating
•vaginal bleeding - seek medical advice if you have any vaginal bleeding that occurs more than one month after the start of treatment
•vaginal dryness
Common: More than 1 in 100 people who have Decapeptyl
•breast pain
•injection site problems such as redness, inflammation or pain
•jointpain
•muscle spasm
•nausea
•stomachpain and discomfort
•weight gain
The frequency of these side-effects is unknown
•amenorrhoea - your periods will usually start again about 2 months after your last injection of Decapeptyl
•angioedema
•breathing difficulties
•confusion
•depression
•diarrhoea
•eye or eyesight problems – You or your carer should seek medical advice if you develop eye or eyesight problems.
•feeling anxious
•feeling dizzy
•fever
•general feeling of being unwell
•hypersensitivity reactions
•itching
•lowering of bone mineral density
•muscle weakness
•musclepain or tenderness
•raised blood pressure
•skin rash or rashes
•urticaria
•vertigo
•vomiting
•weakness
•worsening of endometriosissymptoms at the beginning of treatment - you may get pelvic pain or painful menstrual periods
But GnRH doesn't ONLY cause the secretion of testosterone, does it? Does blocking it stop "other things" that might be a problem?
If not, then, why are we even taking anti-androgens instead of this?
Quote from: Joanna on May 06, 2012, 11:23:55 AM
The doctor is see is in London and is private. He instructs my NHS GP and I get it done at my local surgery on the NHS. This injection though is commonly given via the GIC in London that is also NHS.
It would be worth discussing with your own doctor. Not advisable without supervision as this is strong stuff and works on the pituitary gland in the brain.
I have sent you a message off forum. Triptorelin (Decapeptyl) is not usually used by the NHS or at least it wasn't when I went through their GIC system.