Besides secondary physical characteristics HRT causes sort of a disruption in one's identity continuum! You know "I think; therefore, I exist.." does not apply after HRT. Hrt changes your thinking and your existance
Being a bit trivial now, I dream of being perceived as a female, so basicaly HRT would recontour my body in the process and put me in the righ category: female hormonaly, visually, MENTALLY. Although I am into men I am not gay. As in any dysphoria I cannot see myself -in any capacity- involved in the gay world because I do not fit in the rites of male-male relationships. I try these roles on the DL but the act drives me crazy because they reject the women in me.
Any thoughts??
For me?
I pursue it because it will fit me into the right mind and body. I know that it will simply unleash an untapped potential. I don't believe at all that it changes us mentally, but makes it more possible for us to be there.
Handling things a way a girl would handle them (emotionally, nurturingly) is important in HRT, I think. I have really changed in how I handle things, both internally (how I control myself... or don't....) and externally (how I control a situation).
Cogito ergo sum
if it could be guranteed id never have any male hair loss , which i might not becuase as far as i know noone in my family has . i probably wouldnt ever go on it . i just feel at 25 it wouldnt give me what i want it would give me boobs but im not fussed on breasts at all actually i really like being as flat chested as posible . what i would love is the skeletal structure of a female , hips and narrow shoulders etc , basicly the figure of a runway model , tall narrow shouldered and flat chested . but hrt wouldnt do that for me . it would make my skin softer though and it might almost be worth it for that plus it would allow me to cry more becuase i often get that feeling where i want to cry but its physically blocked , i know thats the fault of the dreased T hormones :P
i know that all sounds confusing but im not binary , i just dont see myself as male or female and although i would be much more comfortable looking as feminine as possible physically , it wouldnt change that fact that im not binary and dont percieve myself as being 100 percent aligned with either sex ( although i do admit im further over to the female side )
HRT has definitely shifted me both mentally and physically more towards female.
It has granted me attributes which I would never have been able to have before (and they all seem like positives to me... even when I get bitchy or my emotions swings and I'm down).
In addition to all the things hormones physically do... it has also been a key reason for my becoming more comfortable exploring the "female world'.
I guess in some way being on hormones made it seem like I had "earned the right" to do anything feminine I wanted. So, I slowly taught myself the other areas that females express themselves (nails, hair, makeup, jewelry, clothing.. even socializing). Looking back, I could have done many feminine things years ago (but, I was still very much trying to be the best man I could).
The only problem is that when I considered identifying completely as female (as I was achieving in presentation) it always would leave me in a situation where I would hate my male attributes (chin, nose, body...all the tiny flaws I have that are results from developing as a man).
So, instead, I reverted back to considering myself male (even with the wonderful effects of hrt and my feminine presentation that I learnt along the way). This way, I found I could accept my male aspects as simply to be expected ... and all of my feminine aspects became even more wonderful to exist in a male.
The entire experience of hormones and transition (along with "coming out" during various points) has basically given me more than just looking pretty. It has let me come to a point where I can appreciate and explore both the male and female in myself with a complete freedom. Male clothes, female clothes, makeup or not... even my voice can be either male or female if I want depending on my mood.
So, for me... hormones were more than just the actual effects of hormones (which are great)... it also granted me a legitimacy in finding myself that I hadn't had before (partially from my own perception, but also through my evolving looks to a softer feminine appearance).
plus i actually love androgyny , when someone looks very feminine but you can still tell they are male , i.e adrej pejic , pete burns , izzy hilton etc
Well, it can be a placebo for some things ::)
HRT may change your emotional state but it does not change your brain. Any personality changes are changes that you made yourself. ;)
Just another step along the path for me. I personally feel too many MTFs put far too much stock in HRT. It's not a magic pill. It won't turn you in to a Victoria's Secret super model overnight... or even over a period of years for that matter. If you had issues or trouble before with "passing", going out, or dealing with people on a daily basis, those issues will more than likely still be present after HRT.
I was full time 24/7 before HRT, and continue to be. HRT really hasn't changed me much (mentally/physically) after 2 years... so YMMV.
Quote from: JennX on May 06, 2012, 12:42:41 PM
Just another step along the path for me. I personally feel too many MTFs put far too much stock in HRT. It's not a magic pill. It won't turn you in to a Victoria's Secret super model overnight... or even over a period of years for that matter. If you had issues or trouble before with "passing", going out, or dealing with people on a daily basis, those issues will more than likely still be present after HRT.
I was full time 24/7 before HRT, and continue to be. HRT really hasn't changed me much (mentally/physically) after 2 years... so YMMV.
+1. Also, HRT won't transform your face that drastically honestly. It will soften your cheeks but won't do anything for your forehead, chin, and adams apple.
I don't understand why people say it won't change much?
When In general, I see photos that change everything.
Oh, I know it's not a magic pill. And I realize result will vary. But, generally I seem to see very big changes. But, maybe the only people posting photos are the ones who see the big changes lol.
I was a female before E, and I am still a female after E. What the magic pill has done for me, the fundamental point, has been to remove the anger and pain of being in prison, it has liberated me; I am me, full of peace and joy.
Quote from: Kelly-087 on May 06, 2012, 05:59:02 PM
Oh, I know it's not a magic pill. And I realize result will vary. But, generally I seem to see very big changes. But, maybe the only people posting photos are the ones who see the big changes lol.
Yeah... more than likely.
It works. If it doesn't, then to those that say it doesn't... why do you risk your health and waste your money on it?
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 06, 2012, 06:54:55 PM
Yeah... more than likely.
It works. If it doesn't, then to those that say it doesn't... why do you risk your health and waste your money on it?
well, speaking for myself, I was passable pre-hrt so hormones are for me a more mental and emotional discovery. So any physical changes that come from hrt are a plus and not expected (besides boobs) :laugh:
What I found was that HRT reinforces those parts of "me" that are female. Prior to HRT, I was (briefly) on androderm (a testosterone patch) and found that my "female" half almost disappeared completely. In addition, I had incredible anxiety and depression because of increasing T levels.
Once I got on E (and spiro), my "male" parts greatly weakened (to the point they barely exist now...and yes, that also refers to my physical male parts ;) ), and most of my anxiety and depression are gone, and I am myself, FINALLY.
Quote from: Sarah7 on May 06, 2012, 04:16:20 PM
'Cause it's hard not to generalize from personal experience. But it's true: HRT isn't a magic pill. It's more like magic... dice. Best of luck and all.
Quote from: Kelly-087 on May 06, 2012, 05:59:02 PM
Oh, I know it's not a magic pill. And I realize result will vary. But, generally I seem to see very big changes. But, maybe the only people posting photos are the ones who see the big changes lol.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 06, 2012, 06:54:55 PM
It works. If it doesn't, then to those that say it doesn't... why do you risk your health and waste your money on it?
Perhaps the dice are weighted? There are a few women who aren't strongly affected by it unfortunately.
But what are the changes that people see? How much of the changes are from HRT directly and how much are from the relief that one has taken a step toward their goal and their mind is receiving the hormones it needs.
In other words HRT may help facially, but also realize that a person on HRT is likely happier than they have been in a long time. Smiles are beautiful things. To have what you need and not feel trapped is that not a powerful cure all of its own.
Quote from: peky on May 06, 2012, 06:53:37 PM
What the magic pill has done for me, the fundamental point, has been to remove the anger and pain of being in prison, it has liberated me; I am me, full of peace and joy.
Quote from: Sarah7 on May 06, 2012, 04:16:20 PM
For me? Sanity. Testosterone kind of mucks up my emotional stability - mostly by making me really, really depressed.
Is not a happy face prettier than a sad or angry one?
How much of the "magic" is not in the medical effects, but in the mental clarity and focused will.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 06, 2012, 06:54:55 PM
Yeah... more than likely.
It works. If it doesn't, then to those that say it doesn't... why do you risk your health and waste your money on it?
When I said this, I was referring to ANY effects of estrogen. It was mentioned that it wouldn't change anything mentally or physically.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 06, 2012, 07:41:51 PM
When I said this, I was referring to ANY effects of estrogen. It was mentioned that it wouldn't change anything mentally or physically.
Even if it didn't change anything directly (which I do not believe myself), remember that the mind itself is powerful. Can you not MAKE yourself happier because you feel closer to your goal? Sometimes even a placebo will "cure" a problem as long as the taker believes.
Just again to make sure, I am in no way saying that E is a placebo. I'm just saying that even if it were, then we could see some people have DRASTIC mental changes.
I do think that for SOME people it is not as effective, but in the event of an apocalypse I'm knocking over a few drug stores ;)
Quote from: Jeneva on May 06, 2012, 07:48:30 PM
Just again to make sure, I am in no way saying that E is a placebo. I'm just saying that even if it were, then we could see some people have DRASTIC mental changes.
It isn't uncommon to see people making posts about drastic mental changes after even simply finally deciding to transition and starting to seek out hormones.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 06, 2012, 06:54:55 PM
It works. If it doesn't, then to those that say it doesn't... why do you risk your health and waste your money on it?
I'll play. ;D ;)
Why? Cause HRT is not my ultimate goal. SRS is my goal. So, again
FOR ME, it's just another step on the the ladder to the top.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 06, 2012, 07:41:51 PM
When I said this, I was referring to ANY effects of estrogen. It was mentioned that it wouldn't change anything mentally or physically.
Again,
FOR ME, after 2 years, it hasn't changed me much. I still don't burst in to tears when watching Legends of the Fall... I've come close... but still no dice. ;)
Everyone's physiology is different. If someone tells you HRT will absolutely, without question, guaranteed do X/Y/Z for you... they are lying to you. No one can predict your individual outcome. You have to take the ride and see where it leads.
IMHO, too many MTFs put waaaaaayyy too much emphasis on HRT. There are many other, far more important issues to deal with during transition. Again, YMMV.
Quote from: Jeneva on May 06, 2012, 07:48:30 PM
but in the event of an apocalypse I'm knocking over a few drug stores ;)
Hey it's 2012, we may be in luck soon. ;D
For me, HRT is purely for the physical changes (and to stop further masculinization).
Thinking of myself as truly a girl came with transition.
After I went full-time but before I started HRT, I was already thinking of myself as a girl by default; even my dreams only ever had me as a girl, in a girl voice.
Thinking like a girl, being able to express my emotions, etc. came about 10 times earlier, looong before I had even heard of the word "transsexual", or any related terms.
It's because I had already decided, relatively early in my life, that I didn't need to think like a guy.
By the time I finished high school, I had already mostly assimilated to my girl friends' minds (I was hanging around with girls 95% of the time already).
So for me, these came about by a change of mindset; none of these required, or were brought about by, HRT, which I only began 11 months after going full-time.
Still, I think it is clear that HRT does have a large psychological effect on many others.
I don't have a problem with simply concluding that it affects some people greatly, and others not so much, or even not at all like for me.
In a nutshell, making the external congruent with the internal person!
Quote from: Erin on May 06, 2012, 02:13:40 PM
+1. Also, HRT won't transform your face that drastically honestly. It will soften your cheeks but won't do anything for your forehead, chin, and adams apple.
It's true that it won't alter bone structure but it can make a major difference with whatever facial fat you got going... Somewhere between the third-fourth month of HRT
people literally didn't recognize me anymore. I did change drastically... I expected these changes to take place around month 7-8-9 not 4. My avatar is at 4 months HRT; do you think I look like a 30 years old man on that pic?
So yeah some people are more receptive than others. You forgot YMMV is the rule not the exception. But it's still a fact that if you have a very masculine bone structure or especially a big prominent adam's apple it's highly likely that no matter how long you are on HRT you will not pass unless you get FFS.
Quote from: Seyranna on May 08, 2012, 06:02:42 PM
It's true that it won't alter bone structure but it can make a major difference with whatever facial fat you got going... Somewhere between the third-fourth month of HRT people literally didn't recognize me anymore. I did change drastically... I expected these changes to take place around month 7-8-9 not 4. My avatar is at 4 months HRT; do you think I look like a 30 years old man on that pic?
So yeah some people are more receptive than others. You forgot YMMV is the rule not the exception. But it's still a fact that if you have a very masculine bone structure or especially a big prominent adam's apple it's highly likely that no matter how long you are on HRT you will not pass unless you get FFS.
I feel weird because I feel like I don't have the most masculine face ever but I still question if I could ever be taken as female without the surgery*... for me though, I think I do have some sort of "hormone dysphoria." Even if nothing else in my life changed, I believe I would be happier if I could get HRT, so for me I am not really after the external characteristics primarily. I get that this is different than many people's experience, but I am not the only one.
People seem to have different priorities (hormones, genitals, socially living as a woman, etc). The interesting thing to me is that not every person wants every single thing to be combined. Of course, some people do want all of that and in a way these people are lucky because transgender stuff tends to get framed in terms of those people's experiences. I wonder what someone who JUST wants SRS would do? At least HRT comes first and you ultimately won't be forced to go through SRS if you don't want to.
*It's questionable if I could ever afford this, too. I probably couldn't without going into debt and lower income people can't just suddenly take on 10k in debt anyway. And is that really what I want? My feeling is that if I can't be happy without it then I couldn't be happy with it, but I can definitely see the benefit to it all the same.
Edit: Also, lucky you, you are pretty cute. I'm glad HRT did go that well for you.
Quote from: Carbon on May 08, 2012, 07:24:39 PM
I feel weird because I feel like I don't have the most masculine face ever but I still question if I could ever be taken as female without the surgery*
You never know unless you try. I've seen some radical changes. I know I felt the same way as you... unsure. It's not that I had a masculine bone structure or even an adams apple, but I looked at myself in the mirror and thought "There's no way..." 8 months post HRT and I barely ever get sir'd unless someone I know slips up with a pronoun or I have to show my ID or something. And that's even without having makeup or girls clothes on. It's true, I have responded pretty well to HRT too, but don't give yourself the chance to look back one day and say "what if?"
Thanks. I guess you're right and everyone feels like that. I do have some masculine features (definitely a noticeable adam's apple) but I'm probably not the most masculine person ever, either, so who knows. It's easy to get demoralized before even starting. (actually this is my second try attempting to get therapy started in hopes of a HRT letter...)
Plus for me, even if I look totally male at least I will have hopefully taken care of the hormone dysphoria- the "fundamental point" for me, even if I'd very much like a more feminine looking face.
I was unsure of if I could even remotely pass without surgery...
But, basically, I knew many of the effects of hormones were steps in the right direction... I didn't know if it would get me where I wanted... but at least it was a start.
I went into things looking at it in the longer term. A 5-10 year thing (I still do).
I'm at 13 months and I'm still not at a point I am happy enough with. Eventually (when I have the money) I will get facial surgeries... I will keep working on my body... more laser... it is simply about continuing to take steps towards what you want.
So, I would say don't go into things with a clear idea of where you want to be and a list of what you think you need. You will become overwhelmed...
Instead, go into it as simply walking forward and taking things as they come. Enjoy the journey and take pleasure in every little new thing you discover and add to yourself (or else every step will be ruined with thoughts that it isn't enough).
Highly over rated!
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on May 10, 2012, 07:19:41 PM
Highly over rated!
Well for some people yah. However, girls my age after a summer of hrt end up looking great and have lots of breast growth.
Quote from: Erin on May 10, 2012, 07:28:07 PM
Well for some people yah. However, girls my age after a summer of hrt end up looking great and have lots of breast growth.
Age actually isn't all that important.. How receptive you body is to estrogen is.. I've seen a girl your age have very little change.. And I've seen older women who have blossomed in no time at all..
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 10, 2012, 07:41:11 PM
Age actually isn't all that important.. How receptive you body is to estrogen is.. I've seen a girl your age have very little change.. And I've seen older women who have blossomed in no time at all..
True. However, I think better wording would be that the younger you start hormones the better the effec will be (universally true) when compared to yourself starting at a later age if we're talking purely physical. Also, unfortunately some girls had too much testosterone damage to begin with. HRT can't really change bones and your face...
Quote from: Erin on May 10, 2012, 07:46:16 PM
True. However, I think better wording would be that the younger you start hormones the better the effec will be (universally true) when compared to yourself starting at a later age if we're talking purely physical. Also, unfortunately some girls had too much testosterone damage to begin with. HRT can't really change bones and your face...
If your body is not receptive to estrogen (and it does happen) it won't matter if you start at 12 or 22 or 52.. And there are no 'universal truths' when it comes to MtF hormones..
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 10, 2012, 08:00:27 PM
If your body is not receptive to estrogen (and it does happen) it won't matter if you start at 12 or 22 or 52.. And there are no 'universal truths' when it comes to MtF hormones..
If someone is that unlucky I honestly don't know what to say except thank god it's not me!
Uhm, there is solid statistical evidence that age is very strongly - and in an exponential-like manner - correlated to results. Of course, the level of receptivity and bones and genetics and all are a factor, but the importance of age -is- huge and undeniable. An unlucky 18-year-old with very poor results would have had something very close to zero if she had been 48 instead, in all probability.
Quote from: A on May 10, 2012, 09:47:13 PM
Uhm, there is solid statistical evidence that age is very strongly - and in an exponential-like manner - correlated to age. Of course, the level of receptivity and bones and genetics and all are a factor, but the importance of age -is- huge and undeniable. An unlucky 18-year-old with very poor results would have had something very close to zero if she had been 48 instead, in all probability.
This is exactly what I was trying to communicate. Hrt is related to age when compared to oneself at different ages and the potential effectiveness at those ages. Of course some young mtfs on hormones won't look that much better and some older mtfs will respond amazingly to hrt. However, there is also the possibility that you could get struck by lightening...
The most radical changes in photos always seem to be younger people.. who look between 18 and 25.. Which i think there studies that suggest hormone treatment is potent before age 25.
Im almost 23.. I just plan to hope to be on hormones by my birthday. If my body weren't receptive I guess I'd have to figure that out later.
Quote from: A on May 10, 2012, 09:47:13 PM
Uhm, there is solid statistical evidence that age is very strongly - and in an exponential-like manner - correlated to results. Of course, the level of receptivity and bones and genetics and all are a factor, but the importance of age -is- huge and undeniable. An unlucky 18-year-old with very poor results would have had something very close to zero if she had been 48 instead, in all probability.
Could you provide a reference ?
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 10, 2012, 08:00:27 PM
If your body is not receptive to estrogen (and it does happen) it won't matter if you start at 12 or 22 or 52.. And there are no 'universal truths' when it comes to MtF hormones..
You're absolutely right about this Kelly, I'm old enough to be a parent to most of you, nothing extraordinary happened for several years on HRT then suddenly I grew what one of my male friends refers to as a rack, and I'm not talking about a country! ;D
I can't, and I am bad at/hate research, but I can swear that I've read a lot of very convincing evidence on this, to the point that I wouldn't even doubt of the truth of this, and that it would be false would do much more than surprise me. This is the first time I've ever read of doubts regarding this matter, actually.
Quote from: Kelly-087 on May 10, 2012, 11:03:30 PM
The most radical changes in photos always seem to be younger people.. who look between 18 and 25.. Which i think there studies that suggest hormone treatment is potent before age 25.
Im almost 23.. I just plan to hope to be on hormones by my birthday. If my body weren't receptive I guess I'd have to figure that out later.
So I'm an oddity I guess?!
Quote from: Seyranna on May 12, 2012, 05:36:26 AM
So I'm an oddity I guess?!
Not an oddity more of an ''outlier''. However, better to be an outlier than not having any change.
Quote from: A on May 11, 2012, 09:26:40 PM
I can't, and I am bad at/hate research, but I can swear that I've read a lot of very convincing evidence on this, to the point that I wouldn't even doubt of the truth of this, and that it would be false would do much more than surprise me. This is the first time I've ever read of doubts regarding this matter, actually.
I've seen a large amount of anecdotal evidence that suggests it, but I'm yet to see anything that scientifically proves that age is such a huge factor and I'm pretty good at research.. Is it a factor? Sure, but I don't think it's a large a factor as some seem to believe..
Quote from: Erin on May 10, 2012, 07:28:07 PM
Well for some people yah. However, girls my age after a summer of hrt end up looking great and have lots of breast growth.
It might work better on the under 20's but I've been on HRT for over 13 years and I haven't noticed a lot of progress. My breast growth is very small and disappointing, my fat re-distribution is also disappointing and it hasn't softened my face. I agree it works better on some more than others regardless of age or race. But the hype about HRT is unbelievable compared to what it can actually do.
There are also many people who end up with having to get breast implants, facial surgery, liposuction and various other feminising operations because HRT just doesn't work for them.
Back to the thread:
the fundamental point of HRT is to iniciate the correction of a biological error; and it is but one of the many tools exploited to fix the biological mishap
I think the fundamental problem here is that no one claimed that age was an absolute factor. I just said that no matter the initial predisposition (which IS a hugely important factor as well), age has further effect on that number. E.g. if you're supposed to react super well to HRT at 20, you'll still be well over average at 30, but not as high in the statistical curve as you'd have been at 20.
Also, it's possible that age doesn't ALWAYS have the same effect. There might be another genetic/other factor that determines how much age affects your ability to transition. But that would be hard to determine, except maybe in a morally controversed experience on twins [if they're trans, one's allowed happiness soon and the other has to wait unfairly, and if they're not, they're sort of turned into trans people ^^']
kelly_aus: If you can't find anything and are better than I, then I'll believe you. It's possible that I somehow combined the fact that I read scientific proof of something else trans related and my doctor's categorical statement that age was important and the whole lot of anecdotal evidence into a memory of reading proof of age's effect in HRT's efficiency. But even if there's no proof, I don't think I'll stop believing that age is a very significant factor.
Seyranna: Rather a lucky person. Plus, I really believe in transdermal patch HRT's effectiveness, and if I'm right, it might have been a factor.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on May 12, 2012, 06:53:49 AM
It might work better on the under 20's but I've been on HRT for over 13 years and I haven't noticed a lot of progress. My breast growth is very small and disappointing, my fat re-distribution is also disappointing and it hasn't softened my face. I agree it works better on some more than others regardless of age or race. But the hype about HRT is unbelievable compared to what it can actually do.
There are also many people who end up with having to get breast implants, facial surgery, liposuction and various other feminising operations because HRT just doesn't work for them.
sometimes i wonder about the hype about hormones pre puberty , i mean people like kim petra had great results but she looked like a little girl before she ever took any female hormones . they say that all the mausclinization occures during puberty and the teenage years but i think there are defiantly young boys around the age of 8 etc who do look very much mauscline/ boyish even if you grew out there hair and put them in a dress they would still look male . so would someone like that who started hormones young achieve great results or still end up needing FFS when they are old enough to have surgery
Most probably not. There -are- differences in children, but they're relatively small, and they vanish after just a little while on HRT. Plus, I think that at least 50 % of that difference is due to the undeniable masculine impression we get from short hair and such, and at least 25 % of it comes from the fact that boys typically do different things from girls, e.g. they tend to be more physical, and as such, would have more muscle in average (children's hormone levels don't differ a whole lot from one gender to the other, so I'm sure not all of the muscle mass difference in children can be attributed to hormones).
Anyone needing FFS after very early HRT would have needed it as a born female anyway - they're just very masculine-looking genetically. And such a case is super rare. The very, very vast majority of females don't need any surgery to appear female, and I think it's (almost?) the same for MTFs who haven't lived a male puberty.
That, or she started at, say, 12, but had an exceptionally early puberty, and was already quite masculinised by the time she started HRT. I guess such a thing could happen in a few cases.