These people go around saying they're a "transguy" or "an FTM" and making this the central part of their identity.
But how can they be? In order to actually be FTM (female-to-
male), you have to identify as male. In other words, identifying as FTM does not make you FTM -- identifying as male does.
A more accurate term would be female-to-trans, or just transgender.
<pics removed>
Input? If you disagree, I don't think you'll ever convince me to think they're guys, but I would love it if you tried.
I'm trying to figure out what they mean by "identifying as FtM". Is it possible they just use that terminology instead of saying they identify as male because it seems to carry less stigma in that it does contain the word "female".
On the pictures:
I can't say anything because I dress like that. I wear dress, tight tops, tight jeans, etc. I also wear make-up on the rare occasion and do my hair. I just enjoy looking nice...and girl clothes are all flow-y, which I like.
Quote from: Lynn Gabriel on May 12, 2012, 02:42:47 PM
I'm trying to figure out what they mean by "identifying as FtM". Is it possible they just use that terminology instead of saying they identify as male because it seems to carry less stigma in that it does contain the word "female".
They identify solely as "FTM", that is their gender identity instead of male. I understand if someone says they're FTM for the sake of allowing other people to know they're trans, but in that circumstance it isn't their identity so that's different.
How does the word female carry less stigma?
Different strokes for different folks. There are some guys who don't identify as FtM and just identify as male. Then you have Femme Ftm's out there. I found (for me personally) that it's easier to embrace the feminine side once you are secure in your identity.
I can't say why those gentlemen identify as FtM instead of male. Maybe they are embracing their roots? Perhaps they are making a statement? Maybe they just want to make things more difficult? Maybe they see FtM and male as a different concept as most biomen don't have to go through what transguys go through?
To each is their own.
Have you tried asking them what they mean? Gender identities and labels vary from person to person.
I'm not sure why it matters how they identify. That's their business. For some people, being trans is central to their gender identity.
Also, why are you posting pictures of them dressing femme as "evidence"? They look quite young; maybe they don't feel safe coming out and are contextualizing their closeted selves as "drag." And you ought to at least obscure their faces on the photos. I doubt they told you it was alright for you to post them here. :-\
I actually identify as an ftm male. Why? Because I used to identify as female (I have NOT always "known") and now I identify as male. I don't really think it matters and frankly, I don't care what people think about it.
Quote from: Marion on May 12, 2012, 02:59:18 PM
I'm not sure why it matters how they identify. That's their business. For some people, being trans is central to their gender identity.
Also, why are you posting pictures of them dressing femme as "evidence"? They look quite young; maybe they don't feel safe coming out and are contextualizing their closeted selves as "drag." And you ought to at least obscure their faces on the photos. I doubt they told you it was alright for you to post them here. :-\
All photos have been previously made public by the subjects within them.
No, they both said they naturally dress like that. They are "proud femme FTMs". From my perspective it seems like they're just women pretending to be something they're not.
Normally I wouldn't care what other people do, but this actually affects me because I'm associated with them. NOBODY outside the trans community could possibly see them as male. They make me look bad and like I'm "trans" too rather than male. I can't help but care. Nobody will take me seriously if I'm associated with these people.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on May 12, 2012, 03:07:47 PM
I actually identify as an ftm male. Why? Because I used to identify as female (I have NOT always "known") and now I identify as male. I don't really think it matters and frankly, I don't care what people think about it.
That's different because of the part I bolded. I have no problem with you.
I feel like this is identity policing. There are cis guys out there that crossdress all the time...are they not male simply for how they present themselves?
There are some trans people who do identify strongly with being trans as opposed to feeling strongly about identifying as a man, and that's okay. I actually know one trans guy that also considers himself femme, and often dresses in drag. He's a feminine guy, and partially does it because of his current situation. He was previously on testosterone but due to financial reasons had to stop. In order to get a job and pay for rent he had to live as female. Some people have to do certain things to survive. Some people feel more male than others.
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 02:49:59 PM
They identify solely as "FTM", that is their gender identity instead of male. I understand if someone says they're FTM for the sake of allowing other people to know they're trans, but in that circumstance it isn't their identity so that's different.
How does the word female carry less stigma?
To me, it just adds on that they are female bodied and that it may confuse people. -shrug- Some people also aren't fully comfortable coming out and saying they identify as male.
I naturally dress up, too. I am more inclined towards flowing and feminine clothes than masculine clothes (at least modern day ones -- I much prefer the styles prior to 1800). However, I identify as male. I am not someone pretending to be this way. I also doubt anyone outside of the trans community will see me as male given I like to dress in certain garments, until I start the process of transitioning.
I can't see why it's wrong to dress feminine and to identify as a feminine male. Not everyone is going to fit the same mold.
It could be argued that I am not female. I would even agree with that to an extant, as I still have male-specific anatomy. Therefore, it could be argued that I will remain male until I have SRS.
At this point, I identify as a woman who is a mildly genderqueer male-to-female transsexual. How I identify is not any less valid than how anyone else might choose to identify. A "femme FTM" is a guy to me, if that's how they identify. Who am I, and who are any of us, to question these identities? If we challenge and invalidate the identities of others, we grant permission for them to do the same.
How about a live and let live policy instead?
Quote from: Nygeel on May 12, 2012, 03:15:47 PM
I feel like this is identity policing. There are cis guys out there that crossdress all the time...are they not male simply for how they present themselves?
There are some trans people who do identify strongly with being trans as opposed to feeling strongly about identifying as a man, and that's okay. I actually know one trans guy that also considers himself femme, and often dresses in drag. He's a feminine guy, and partially does it because of his current situation. He was previously on testosterone but due to financial reasons had to stop. In order to get a job and pay for rent he had to live as female. Some people have to do certain things to survive. Some people feel more male than others.
No, you're misunderstanding me. Trans guys can be as feminine as they want. I'm aware that being feminine does not equal being female.
The problem is that, not only are these people not masculine, they're not male because they don't identify that way. So if they're not male how can they be FT
M? That is an inherent contradiction.
Quote from: Lynn Gabriel on May 12, 2012, 03:20:37 PM
I can't see why it's wrong to dress feminine and to identify as a feminine male. Not everyone is going to fit the same mold.
It's not wrong. They don't identify as feminine males, but feminine FTMs. They are misrepresenting what "FTM" actually is, since being FTM involves being male, and their identities dictate that they're not. They openly admit this, so I'm not "gender policing".
There's no set-in-stone rules to being ftm, or identifying as so. Moreover, they can identify as ftm and physically present themselves as however they'd like to.
I do understand your point though. I was the same way when I first started transitioning (not saying that you just started). I was on youtube and came across and ftm who dressed as female sometimes and it really angered me because I felt that they need to either be a man or a woman and people won't take me seriously because they dress as a female sometimes. However, I eventually came around and understood that they can identify and present themselves however they want to.
As far as people not taking you seriously if you're associated with these people, well you don't have to associate with them. No one is forcing you to associate with the trans/ftm community. . .
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 03:21:57 PM
No, you're misunderstanding me. Trans guys can be as feminine as they want. I'm aware that being feminine does not equal being female.
The problem is that, not only are these people not masculine, they're not male because they don't identify that way. So if they're not male how can they be FTM? That is an inherent contradiction.
It's not. They don't identify as feminine males, but feminine FTMs. They are misrepresenting what "FTM" actually is, since being FTM involves being male, and their identities dictate that they're not. They openly admit this, so I'm not "gender policing".
You're saying that they're not as they identify. Does it really matter how they identify?
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 03:08:21 PM
No, they both said they naturally dress like that. They are "proud femme FTMs". From my perspective it seems like they're just women pretending to be something they're not.
Well, many (most?) drag queens identify as male but dress as women for performance purposes. It's performance. Gender-play. Sure, I know it's not a perfect example, but it might give you a different way of looking at it.
I should also point out that a very female-identified woman can wear a man's suit and a very male-identified man can wear a dress, and those people still identify as they identify.
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 03:08:21 PMNormally I wouldn't care what other people do, but this actually affects me because I'm associated with them. NOBODY outside the trans community could possibly see them as male. They make me look bad and like I'm "trans" too rather than male. I can't help but care. Nobody will take me seriously if I'm associated with these people.
When you say that you're associated with them, does that mean that you socialize with them or that they are part of the larger trans community? If you know them personally, you can stop hanging out with them. If you don't, you're pretty much stuck. I would ignore them as much as possible.
I see your concern, but it's something that we all face. If I come out to people (which I don't really do, but let's assume that I did), I wouldn't want people saying I'm like Chaz Bono or "that pregnant trans man."
And look at it this way. People like the ones in the pictures might be the ones who, perhaps decades from now, really punch home the point that our identities are primarily what's inside and not necessarily how we appear to others.
Quote from: Arch on May 12, 2012, 03:28:39 PM
When you say that you're associated with them, does that mean that you socialize with them or that they are part of the larger trans community? If you know them personally, you can stop hanging out with them. If you don't, you're pretty much stuck. I would ignore them as much as possible.
I see your concern, but it's something that we all face. If I come out to people (which I don't really do, but let's assume that I did), I wouldn't want people saying I'm like Chaz Bono or "that pregnant trans man."
And look at it this way. People like the ones in the pictures might be the ones who, perhaps decades from now, really punch home the point that our identities are primarily what's inside and not necessarily how we appear to others.
I mean they're all over the internet misrepresenting something that they're not even a part of. If anyone I know IRL sees their posts and generalizes them onto me, they will get an impression that is very wrong. It's exactly like what you said about the pregnant man and Chaz Bono, same concept.
Meh, we can only speculate about what they'll do in the future.
they are just confused about themselves and terminology.
trouble is that people like this muddy the waters and make srs seem a waste of time and money that should be legislated out of existence.
When the great unwashed and the health service bean counters see girls like this they thnk: 'born female, looks and happy to be seen as female so whats all this nonsense about crossdressing males claiming to be women and needing srs?'
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 03:36:04 PM
I mean they're all over the internet misrepresenting something that they're not even a part of. If anyone I know IRL sees their posts and generalizes them onto me, they will get an impression that is very wrong. It's exactly like what you said about the pregnant man and Chaz Bono, same concept.
I understand what you see as a contradiction in terminology, and it puzzles me, too. But I do defend their right to label themselves as they wish, and I don't really care how they identify unless someone else comes along and assumes that I identify the same way. In such a situation, I would do my best to explain myself.
If you really want to understand, start a dialogue with them. They might even reconsider their self-labeling. If you want to blast them, that's a different story.
Maybe they really are confused about what the labels usually mean. How will you know until you ask?
Quote from: Arch on May 12, 2012, 03:50:12 PM
I understand what you see as a contradiction in terminology, and it puzzles me, too. But I do defend their right to label themselves as they wish, and I don't really care how they identify unless someone else comes along and assumes that I identify the same way. In such a situation, I would do my best to explain myself.
If you really want to understand, start a dialogue with them. They might even reconsider their self-labeling. If you want to blast them, that's a different story.
Maybe they really are confused about what the labels usually mean. How will you know until you ask?
I agree with all of this.
If you don't start a dialogue with them how will you know what the deal is (not that it's really any of your business anyways). Do they say they 100% of the time dress this way?
Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 04:16:00 PM
I agree with all of this.
If you don't start a dialogue with them how will you know what the deal is (not that it's really any of your business anyways). Do they say they 100% of the time dress this way?
I did talk to them. Yeah they dress that way regularly and they don't consider themselves male, but still consider themselves FTM and anyone who says otherwise is a "gender police". These aren't just isolated cases either. In fact the FTM tag on Tumblr is full of these people.
I don't really see how SOMEONE ELSE identifies matters. Just worry about yourself and how YOU identify. These kind-of threads piss me off because it assumes that all FTM's have to be a certain way in order to ID as an FTM. It shouldn't really matter what someone else does. If it does, it's more of a reflection on you. Not them.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on May 12, 2012, 05:06:56 PM
I don't really see how SOMEONE ELSE identifies matters. Just worry about yourself and how YOU identify. These kind-of threads piss me off because it assumes that all FTM's have to be a certain way in order to ID as an FTM. It shouldn't really matter what someone else does. If it does, it's more of a reflection on you. Not them.
You're right that everyone s responsible for their own identity, but I fear that their identity will affect how I'm seen. That makes it my business.
It's like straight girls who go around pretending to be bisexual just because guys think it's hot when they make out with their friends. Meanwhile, real lesbians are being shoved into lockers, spat on, attacked, and relentlessly bullied. Or kids who cut themselves and post pictures of it on Facebook, because they think people will feel bad for them. Meanwhile, kids who really have depression and self-injury problems are regarded as whiny, shallow attention seekers who shouldn't be taken seriously, ever. Or people who go around claiming to be Wiccan because they think it's cool and edgy and different. Meanwhile, real pagans are treated like delusional satanists.
These people who are "FTM" because they think it makes them unique, parading around and saying things like "i'm not a guy, i'm a transman! die cis scum. ->-bleeped-<- pride!". Meanwhile I have suffered with intense dysphoria since I was little and just wanna be seen as a regular guy. They will do anything they can to stand out, and they will use whatever they can to get that attention - even if it puts all of the other people associated with that in a bad position. It makes me angry.
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 05:16:52 PM
These people who are "FTM" because they think it makes them unique, parading around and saying things like "i'm not a guy, i'm a transman! die cis scum. ->-bleeped-<- pride!".
Now is this factual, or just an assumption?
Quote from: conformer on May 12, 2012, 05:22:46 PM
Now is this factual, or just an assumption?
Two of them have explicitly told me they do it because it's cool. "Die cis scum", "->-bleeped-<- pride", etc. are probably the most common phrases in the FTM community on Tumblr and yeah I think it's an accurate portrayal of them.
Hold on I'll get an example for you.
EDIT: http://i.imgur.com/jPnxE.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/jPnxE.jpg)
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 05:16:52 PM
You're right that everyone s responsible for their own identity, but I fear that their identity will affect how I'm seen. That makes it my business.
It's like straight girls who go around pretending to be bisexual just because guys think it's hot when they make out with their friends. Meanwhile, real lesbians are being shoved into lockers, spat on, attacked, and relentlessly bullied. Or kids who cut themselves and post pictures of it on Facebook, because they think people will feel bad for them. Meanwhile, kids who really have depression and self-injury problems are regarded as whiny, shallow attention seekers who shouldn't be taken seriously, ever. Or people who go around claiming to be Wiccan because they think it's cool and edgy and different. Meanwhile, real pagans are treated like delusional satanists.
These people who are "FTM" because they think it makes them unique, parading around and saying things like "i'm not a guy, i'm a transman! die cis scum. ->-bleeped-<- pride!". Meanwhile I have suffered with intense dysphoria since I was little and just wanna be seen as a regular guy. They will do anything they can to stand out, and they will use whatever they can to get that attention - even if it puts all of the other people associated with that in a bad position. It makes me angry.
I agree. Some people who claim to be FtM don't even know what the term means. Some people do like to do things just to stand out. However people are just going to see people the way they want to no matter what. You could be a professional MMA fighter who has gotten top and bottom surgery while also finding the cure for all sicknesses but there are just some people out there who would still always see you as female or a joke. Some people are idiots like that.
You don't have to prove anything to anyone in order to be seen as male. It's not your place to do that. There are some people who are willing to be educated on the subject matter. Let your actions show who you really are and the rest of the B.S. surrounding you may be cut away. You are just trying to live your life the best that you can as male and if someone can't see that then that is their issue not yours.
I guess a question I have at this point would be to ask how representative of the FTM community in general can be described by what's on Tumblr? Tumblr is not a site I would turn to when trying to learn about a segment of this or any community. True, it's a facet of a segment of a community. But, I think it only represents those who are Tumblr members/users.
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 05:16:52 PM
You're right that everyone s responsible for their own identity, but I fear that their identity will affect how I'm seen. That makes it my business.
It's like straight girls who go around pretending to be bisexual just because guys think it's hot when they make out with their friends. Meanwhile, real lesbians are being shoved into lockers, spat on, attacked, and relentlessly bullied. Or kids who cut themselves and post pictures of it on Facebook, because they think people will feel bad for them. Meanwhile, kids who really have depression and self-injury problems are regarded as whiny, shallow attention seekers who shouldn't be taken seriously, ever. Or people who go around claiming to be Wiccan because they think it's cool and edgy and different. Meanwhile, real pagans are treated like delusional satanists.
These people who are "FTM" because they think it makes them unique, parading around and saying things like "i'm not a guy, i'm a transman! die cis scum. ->-bleeped-<- pride!". Meanwhile I have suffered with intense dysphoria since I was little and just wanna be seen as a regular guy. They will do anything they can to stand out, and they will use whatever they can to get that attention - even if it puts all of the other people associated with that in a bad position. It makes me angry.
The part underlined:
Yes, those things happen, but it probably would have happened anyway. People generally look down on something they don't see as "normal". It's not just the "fakers"* who give them a bad name. It takes a lot more than that. If you do
anything that is not considered in the norm, then you are at risk for being picked on/bullied/etc. The "fakers" definitely don't help the image, but they're not the sole cause.
How people view is isn't just based off of those people. It's also based off of it not being within the norm and based off of stereotypes and many other things.
See below for why they (the FtMs) identify the way they do:
The part in bold:
It just reminded me of something: What if they don't want to say they identify as male because their body is female and, to them, that means they are a transman/FtM and not male -- that it would take them transitioning to male for them to actually be male. Until then, they're FtM and not male. Some people aren't comfortable identifying as X when they aren't physically X yet.
* "fakers" = people who do something because they want attention and not because it's who they really are. i.e. Ladies saying they're into ladies because it's "cool" or because their guys like it; people who dress a certain way for shock value; etc.
Quote from: Connie Anne on May 12, 2012, 05:31:02 PM
I guess a question I have at this point would be to ask how representative of the FTM community in general can be described by what's on Tumblr? Tumblr is not a site I would turn to when trying to learn about a segment of this or any community. True, it's a facet of a segment of a community. But, I think it only represents those who are Tumblr members/users.
Very true, and thank god for that. I rarely see this kind of person outside of Tumblr. Problem is I'm 19 and people my age use Tumblr as often as Facebook or Twitter. A few of my friends (who don't know I'm trans) were making fun of the FTMs on there yesterday... so the community clearly has some audience.
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 05:26:01 PM
Two of them have explicitly told me they do it because it's cool. "Die cis scum", "->-bleeped-<- pride", etc. are probably the most common phrases in the FTM community on Tumblr and yeah I think it's an accurate portrayal of them.
Hold on I'll get an example for you.
EDIT: http://i.imgur.com/jPnxE.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/jPnxE.jpg)
Eh, well though they do seem like jerks, they are minuscule in the community and shouldn't be thought much of. The odds of someone really comparing you to someone who mocks ftms I think is very low because like no one knows about them lol. Fortunately there are far less people like you described in the trans community compared to other examples that you gave (people who cut for attention, etc. ).
Quote from: Lynn Gabriel on May 12, 2012, 05:35:33 PM
What if they don't want to say they identify as male because their body is female and, to them, that means they are a transman/FtM and not male -- that it would take them transitioning to male for them to actually be male. Until then, they're FtM and not male. Some people aren't comfortable identifying as X when they aren't physically X yet.
I think this is a very good point.
Though I'm a male-to-
female transsexual, I don't identify as "female" at this time because I still have my "outie." I use the definitions of fe/male and wo/man as suggested by Susan Stryker in her book
Transgender History. Fe/male are terms that refer to sex with is anatomical (between the legs) and wo/man refer to gender (between the ears).
So, I identify for the time being as a male-bodied woman. I feel that this is accurate and will be accurate until I have SRS. I understand that this could be seen as splitting hairs, but I think it's an important detail in my self-description.
Quote from: Connie Anne on May 12, 2012, 05:47:13 PM
I think this is a very good point.
Though I'm a male-to-female transsexual, I don't identify as "female" at this time because I still have my "outie." I use the definitions of fe/male and wo/man as suggested by Susan Stryker in her book Transgender History. Fe/male are terms that refer to sex with is anatomical (between the legs) and wo/man refer to gender (between the ears).
So, I identify for the time being as a male-bodied woman. I feel that this is accurate and will be accurate until I have SRS. I understand that this could be seen as splitting hairs, but I think it's an important detail in my self-description.
Valid point. If that is the case for these people I wouldn't care as much.... though somehow I doubt it is.
Next time I encounter one of them I will ask for them to define 'male' after they say they are not male. Hopefully they won't block me again for "gender policing and cissexism" LOLOL.
"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Given to all, but none are given the right to take it away from others. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 05:16:52 PM
You're right that everyone s responsible for their own identity, but I fear that their identity will affect how I'm seen. That makes it my business.
It's like straight girls who go around pretending to be bisexual just because guys think it's hot when they make out with their friends. Meanwhile, real lesbians are being shoved into lockers, spat on, attacked, and relentlessly bullied. Or kids who cut themselves and post pictures of it on Facebook, because they think people will feel bad for them. Meanwhile, kids who really have depression and self-injury problems are regarded as whiny, shallow attention seekers who shouldn't be taken seriously, ever. Or people who go around claiming to be Wiccan because they think it's cool and edgy and different. Meanwhile, real pagans are treated like delusional satanists.
These people who are "FTM" because they think it makes them unique, parading around and saying things like "i'm not a guy, i'm a transman! die cis scum. ->-bleeped-<- pride!". Meanwhile I have suffered with intense dysphoria since I was little and just wanna be seen as a regular guy. They will do anything they can to stand out, and they will use whatever they can to get that attention - even if it puts all of the other people associated with that in a bad position. It makes me angry.
Here's a bit of advice. Don't make other people's issues/problems/identities/etc your "business". Do you enjoy it when people put YOU under THEIR microscope and make your actions/likes/issues/whatever their business? Best to just do your own thing and don't get so wrapped up in what other people are doing.
I agree with casey.
Also, that quote you posted about "die cis scum" was from Dear Cis People, which takes anonymous submissions. I don't see how you could reasonably link it to these people you think are incorrectly identifying themselves.
Per discussion by the staff, the links to the pictures in the OP have been removed.
Quote from: Connie Anne on May 12, 2012, 06:34:46 PM
Per discussion by the staff, the links to the pictures in the OP have been removed.
Thank you for this. I was just coming here to say, that yes those people put those pics in a public forum, but we all hate it when a certain militant radical feminist takes our publicly posted photos and uses them to fuel her anti-trans hate blog.
Written descriptions work just as well.
Quote from: Marion on May 12, 2012, 06:34:13 PM
I agree with casey.
Also, that quote you posted about "die cis scum" was from Dear Cis People, which takes anonymous submissions. I don't see how you could reasonably link it to these people you think are incorrectly identifying themselves.
*SIGH* That was just one example of many. I've seen it countless times by the people who I'm referring to.
Quote from: Connie Anne on May 12, 2012, 06:34:46 PM
Per discussion by the staff, the links to the pictures in the OP have been removed.
Fair enough. I knew that would happen.
Quote from: casey on May 12, 2012, 06:49:22 PM
I guess the only thing I wonder is, you expect others to take you super seriously in terms of your identity (which is fair), but you don't seem to take these people seriously. There's more than one way to be trans, more than one way to be, and neither one is inherently better than the other.
I don't take it seriously because it's internally inconsistent... a "ftm" who's not male-gendered is like a gay man who's not into men; nonexistent. It's fine to be gender-variant, genderqueer, etc. but they should acknowledge what they actually are instead of pretending to be something else. It's really not so much to ask.
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 07:00:40 PM
I don't take it seriously because it's internally inconsistent... a "ftm" who's not male-gendered is like a gay man who's not into men; nonexistent. It's fine to be gender-variant, genderqueer, etc. but they should acknowledge what they actually are instead of pretending to be something else. It's really not so much to ask.
So, what does that make me then? For the reasons I mentioned above, I don't identify as female as I am still anatomically male. My sex is still male, but my gender is woman. To rephrase a comment you made earlier in this thread, am I MTT: male to trans? I don't think that I am, because trans is not the endpoint. Trans is the process, female is the endpoint. But, I'm still in process.
Would be more accurate to say I'm not MTF (male-to-female) but MTW (man-to-woman)?
Quote from: Connie Anne on May 12, 2012, 07:09:55 PM
So, what does that make me then? For the reasons I mentioned above, I don't identify as female as I am still anatomically male. My sex is still male, but my gender is woman. To rephrase a comment you made earlier in this thread, am I MTT: male to trans? I don't think that I am, because trans is not the endpoint. Trans is the process, female is the endpoint. But, I'm still in process.
Would be more accurate to say I'm not MTF (male-to-female) but MTW (man-to-woman)?
Acronyms aside, it makes you unhappy human being to happy human being. :)
Is it possible these individuals cannot transition or come out publicly for some reason or another and thus are stuck playing a female's role?
Quote from: Sephirah on May 12, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
Acronyms aside, it makes you unhappy human being to happy human being. :)
Yeah, that's a great way to describe it! :D
Quote from: Sephirah on May 12, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
Acronyms aside, it makes you unhappy human being to happy human being. :)
UHBtHHB?
Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 07:14:32 PM
UHBtHHB?
Gesundheit!
Flippancy aside, I think this has been a very thought-provoking thread.
Quote from: Connie Anne on May 12, 2012, 07:09:55 PM
So, what does that make me then? For the reasons I mentioned above, I don't identify as female as I am still anatomically male. My sex is still male, but my gender is woman. To rephrase a comment you made earlier in this thread, am I MTT: male to trans? I don't think that I am, because trans is not the endpoint. Trans is the process, female is the endpoint. But, I'm still in process.
Would be more accurate to say I'm not MTF (male-to-female) but MTW (man-to-woman)?
You're a woman. The difference is clear when you say "my gender is woman" rather than "my gender is transwoman". I'm saying that with these people, the ones that make me angry, trans
is the endpoint. The purpose of their transition is to be FTM instead of male, but ironically, by not being male, they cannot be FTM either.
Male-to-trans would apply if your gender identity was "MTF" instead of woman and your entire goal was to be trans, not to be female.
I honestly don't know how I can break it down any further than this...
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 07:29:59 PM
I honestly don't know how I can break it down any further than this...
I think you've been doing a great job breaking it down, actually. As more questions are put to you, you seem to be making your position clearer, to me at least.
This has been a very thought-provoking thread, indeed.
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 07:29:59 PM
by not being male, they cannot be FTM either.
If you want to get super duper technical here, we aren't male either. We are female by genetics, unless there is some sort of underlying intersex condition. And no amount of transitioning will change genetics (yet) so maybe it's more comfortable for them to id that way?
Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 07:13:52 PM
Is it possible these individuals cannot transition or come out publicly for some reason or another and thus are stuck playing a female's role?
I still wonder this.
Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 07:58:55 PM
If you want to get super duper technical here, we aren't male either. We are female by genetics, unless there is some sort of underlying intersex condition. And no amount of transitioning will change genetics (yet) so maybe it's more comfortable for them to id that way?
We're equivocating on the word "male"; I am referring to gender identity and I think you're referring to physical sex. I don't really understand what else you're trying to say here. Mind re-phrasing?
Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 07:13:52 PM
Is it possible these individuals cannot transition or come out publicly for some reason or another and thus are stuck playing a female's role?
Possible but I'm not sure we can definitively prove what their reason is. In that scenario it doesn't bother me since they'll change their identity when they get out of the situation. It probably is true for some and not for others... who knows.
But, what if they aren't able to get out of that situation?
In theory, there should not be any reasons that I couldn't get SRS. But, things like money or other health issues could prevent that from happening.
You are saying that because the purpose of their transition is to be come an FTM and not a male, which for all purposes an FTM is a male (I would just describe them as a non-stealth trans male), they cannot be FTMs.
I'm saying we cannot be FTMs or males either since we are not really transitioning to genetically male. We are just transitioning to the physical appearance of male/are still genetically female.
FWIW I see someone IDing as FTM as the same as someone who uses trans man/male as part of their identity modifiers.
I've met a couple of people IRL who actively identify as FTMs and most assuredly NOT as men. I believe they started out as fairly separatist, anti-male lesbians, though. They didn't want to hang out with cis men but would spend time with trans men.
Of course, man is not the same as male.
Bottom line for me?
Wanting to have your cake and eat it.
Be ~ female, and at the same time 'claim' some of what ever 'male privilege' one might think is out there. Some kind of über female? Hey, I'm FtM...
Want to 'buy into it'?
Up to one's personal mind set. If you dig it, just fine.
I do not think it has to do with "policing" of any kind, to at least question it, - just some sort of common sense?
And it smacks of arrogance of some sort as well – to me.
Axélle
I feel like in the trans community, you get a lot of gender blenders and mix-n'-matchers as opposed to the assumption you might make that things are as simple and obvious as the terms imply. :-X
A lot of times the actual genderedness of the label someone is defining themselves by has nothing to do with who they are, how they think or feel or want to present to the world. Personally I think that's just bad labeling but then people are free to do that if they really want.
It's pretty confusing but, well, this is all just talking about ideals. In the end, it's not about how you identify, it's not about what you ascribe to yourself...it's about the face you put forth. It's about how you act and how you come across to people. That's what matters in daily life and in your interactions with the world. If it feels contrived, people are gonna notice. That's just how it is, for better or for worse. :)
I have removed the last three messages as first was against ToS and the subsequent ones quoted the message I deleted.
Cindy James
Global Moderator.
I'm exhausted and it's 4:30 AM here and I feel that I should let you know that I am going to bed now, but I will respond to Andy properly tomorrow, when I can keep my eyes open. What he said has prompted me to come to a realization that I have overlooked some details.
Quote from: Axelle on May 13, 2012, 01:50:49 AM
Be ~ female, and at the same time 'claim' some of what ever 'male privilege' one might think is out there. Some kind of über female? Hey, I'm FtM...
An intriguing idea, but I don't see a shred of male privilege here; so if male privilege IS a factor, people are likely deluding themselves. Anyway, I haven't talked to these people, so I have no idea where they're coming from.
I identify as ftm male
I identify as male
I also identify as ftm..
I dont think there is a transexual who would say he/she only identifyd ftm/mtf but not as a man/woman.
as you say its a part of it, but it dosent make it inrealistic not to identify both as a man with some other life experience than regulary cis-guys.
To me it seems like these people (based on what you're saying) would probably be more accurately described as genderqueer/something else other than male or female, but are identifying with the ftm community, probably because either they have shared experiences, or they just really want to be part of a community and can't find one for their more specific identity. And while I can see why the latter would confuse the issue, I don't know what's the problem with the former. I mean, there are people who've physically/socially transitioned in a typical "ftm" way and yet they don't identify as male, even though they went from being perceived as female to being perceived as male. It seems reasonable for them to consider themselves "ftm" if they want to, because they share so many experiences with other people who consider themselves ftm.
I also think that a lot of people might just be going through a phase where they're still coming to terms with being trans. If you're uncertain and you realize there are a bunch of people who don't identify as strictly male or female, you think "oh thank goodness, I can just be that, and don't have to do all this transitioning stuff that seems terrifying and unfeasible." But if you actually are male, you'd probably find yourself gravitating towards terms like ftm, even if you haven't worked it all through yet.
If you're a kid and you have no support system then it's much easier to only go halfway, if you can live with it. I know when I was 13-14 I was all "I'm a boy, I'm going to get surgery and hormones, but I'm not transgender, oh no, because that is far too unlikely, I mean what are the odds?!" Which is kind of the opposite of what these people are doing, but all I'm saying is that being extremely illogical about it is something that happens.
I refer to myself as a trans man. I don't specifically say I "identify" as FTM, as such, but FTM is a part of what and who I am and nothing I can or will ever do will remove my past from me. I can not change the past.
This doesn't make me any less of a man and a part of me resents the suggestion that these guys aren't "guys" because they don't identify as 100% male or consider themselves "femme" because to me this implies that I, being that I am a trans man and don't hide or reject the trans part of my existence, am somehow less a man for it.
Quote from: Andy8715 on May 12, 2012, 09:33:50 PM
You are saying that because the purpose of their transition is to be come an FTM and not a male, which for all purposes an FTM is a male (I would just describe them as a non-stealth trans male), they cannot be FTMs.
... What you said here caused me to realize something I overlooked. Their gender identity doesn't reflect their gender.
To be more specific, they inaccurately identify their gender as "FTM" when really their gender is either male or female. This is because "FTM" isn't a gender at all, it describes a physical and social process. The people who ID with it simply have a gender identity which doesn't dictate what their gender actually is.
If they're female, they're one of the pretenders I spoke of earlier. If they're male, I guess they just find the "trans" part significant for whatever reason. But they are no less male.
In other words, being a guy isn't defined by identifying as male, but rather, being male -- and it's possible to do one without the other.
I am in the wrong here. I apologize.
BTW here is the "die cis scum" thing and one of the trans-identified people I'm talking about.
Die Cis Scum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=P2V2QVvJlt4#)
Hopefully it's OK to post their YouTube vid.
This whole thread has been interesting to follow, and I have wanted to add in my thoughts, but with graduation and packing I haven't even had time to properly sleep let alone form a coherent thought process.
So, instead, I will relate my personal feelings: when I frst started therapy and saw this folks on tumblr when looking for resources, I was so completely confused. However, the more I thought about it, I realized, ya know, I'm not so different. I identify as a female-bodied guy. I have breasts, I have a vagina, XX chromosomes, and no penis. That being said, I am learning to be okay and change what I can with hormones and later surgery. I don't begrudge anyone their identity and how they view themselves. A lot of great points have been made, and wonderful counterpoints that have been awesome to follow. I wish I had more time and was more awake to sit down and really break down the discussion. Now I feel like this; I am comfortable with how I identify - FTM, female-bodied, (I sometimes crudely say I am a vagina-ed dude), and I am transitioning to be seen as male. My DNA will never change, I may never be able to afford all the procedures I want, any number of things could happen. If I was non-op/ non-hormones, I would still identify like I do now. I understand that people get confused, I know I certainly did.
In the end I view it like this - if I comfortable in my identity, then how others identify should not bother me. As long as they are not actively hurting somone else, I don't care. I don't mean they say something that irritates someone else, but that they actually cause harm.
Now I am getting coffee and going to hope that any of that made any semblence of sense.
I did want to add that I have been listening to that video - the tone of the person made the point hard for me as a trans* guy - to have any sympathy. Maybe its the lack of coffee.
Quote from: Ayden on May 14, 2012, 03:51:22 PM
I did want to add that I have been listening to that video - the tone of the person made the point hard for me as a trans* guy - to have any sympathy. Maybe its the lack of coffee.
For me, it was what zie said coupled with the tone. =/ I did post a question because zie kept saying "trans-feminine" and I had no idea what it meant. I also posted that cisgender people choose their gender as much as transgender people choose their gender.
I can understand growing rather irritated because of that stance that zie has. I find it annoying and hypocritical.
I feel like this topic is just people getting upset about the tumblr "social justice" thing and then focusing in on other things that aren't really a problem. It is pretty stupid. This does not stop trans men from being men, it just means they are into something bigger than them that is pretty stupid, probably because it gives them a sense of community, purpose, and support. Ultimately, we should just keep in mind that it could be much worse and they could have just become Christians.
kidding, kidding... but I think it's better not to get caught up in these people. pretty much everyone is part of a tumblr social justice group and it's best simply not to take it too seriously. they could be doing worse things and anything that helps them is great.
if y'all are men, why are you so upset about tumblr "trans guys"? what about, like, actual sexists, street harassers, so called men's rights activists, etc? isn't it worse to be associated with them?
the tumblr stuff makes me really uncomfortable but I also find it pretty easy to avoid so life goes on.
Quote from: ParodyOfLife on May 12, 2012, 05:16:52 PM
You're right that everyone s responsible for their own identity, but I fear that their identity will affect how I'm seen. That makes it my business.
It's like straight girls who go around pretending to be bisexual just because guys think it's hot when they make out with their friends. Meanwhile, real lesbians are being shoved into lockers, spat on, attacked, and relentlessly bullied. Or kids who cut themselves and post pictures of it on Facebook, because they think people will feel bad for them. Meanwhile, kids who really have depression and self-injury problems are regarded as whiny, shallow attention seekers who shouldn't be taken seriously, ever. Or people who go around claiming to be Wiccan because they think it's cool and edgy and different. Meanwhile, real pagans are treated like delusional satanists.
These people who are "FTM" because they think it makes them unique, parading around and saying things like "i'm not a guy, i'm a transman! die cis scum. ->-bleeped-<- pride!". Meanwhile I have suffered with intense dysphoria since I was little and just wanna be seen as a regular guy. They will do anything they can to stand out, and they will use whatever they can to get that attention - even if it puts all of the other people associated with that in a bad position. It makes me angry.
--
im gonna make alittle more personal post to you than the last one^^ first of all I dont have tumble so I cant check up about the stuff you talk about there..
to make it all into small details..
there's this big umbrella team for being transgender.. not transexual but transgender.
which mean that words like transguy and ftm has more than 1 meaning, and more than 1 opinion.
so a ftm could be a person who had top and bottom surgery, or a person who didnt had surgery and only identifyed as male half of the time. we are human so nobody is simular and theres always exeptions, or people who isnt like ourself.
there busniss is infact not our life. its not about labels but about people being happy with themself.
We cant hate on them cause they make other choices than us.
"should I hate transpeople who choice to have bottom surgery cause everyone who ask me would think I also should have one?" "should I hate butch for being maculine and dressing as male, so people would think I just was a lesbian and not a trans?" "should I hate every macho guy for showing the steryotype on how I am suposed to be as a man?"
"should I hate mtf's for being and doing what they do, so every time I say I am trans people would belive I want to be a woman"
or "should I hate every straight transguy cause people would belive a ftm couldnt be gay then?"
I see this as being pretty usual in the trans and gay comunety but to be frank, We go no where hating on each others diffrence because someone is too stupid to notice the diffrence. this is very important to let everyone have the freedom to live like they want, without we put it all into a busniss matter. if we do so we musnt forget that our own busniss also becomes others matters and is standing in the way of other people.
on the other hand
if some people I know or seen are talking about being trans without having great experience, then I would first try to educate them and let them talk and think about it. Not everyone comes to team right away or feel they should, its not a rush after all.
+ not everyone is totally educated about those things but I feel its a good help for those who arnt.
if it turns out the person really isnt trans but just wanna be cool, or have unrealistical thought of it being trans.
(ex, once there was a girl who wanted to be a guy cause she thought gay sex would be great.)
then I would sure also educate the person on the other point, that being transexual ISN'T living in paridise and that the person really shouldn't transition.
I would do so for the persons safety. first of all being trans can bring you into alot of troubles, being expensive and even dangerous in some situations.
second is, a person really shouldnt transition or be anything there not. I dont feel good about being a girl, even when I somethimes see girls having the distributa and I for a short moment wish I was a girl.
But, people who base there dreams on such small things will get really disapointed and unhappy so I would warn them to make sure they knew what they where doing, and that it would be the best for them.
I hope you understand my 2 minded post.
btw. I love the video,
I never heard of the die cis scum, but somethimes I said so in my head when someone was pissing me off ;)
I try to not let that kind of stuff get to me though it does effect how some people think about you. I identify as male and thats what works for me who am I to judge anyone else for making a different choice or calling themselves something else or just not being educated on terminology if thats the case. I think if more people just looked out for themselves and didn't focus to much on what other people are saying or doing than everyone would be happier.
Quote from: poptart on May 12, 2012, 05:16:52 PMThese people who are "FTM" because they think it makes them unique, parading around and saying things like "i'm not a guy, i'm a transman! die cis scum. ->-bleeped-<- pride!". Meanwhile I have suffered with intense dysphoria since I was little and just wanna be seen as a regular guy. They will do anything they can to stand out, and they will use whatever they can to get that attention - even if it puts all of the other people associated with that in a bad position. It makes me angry.
So this post is from a while ago, but I have to respond to it.
With the exception of the term 't**nny', which I won't use (except in the modified forms '->-bleeped-<--boy'/'->-bleeped-<-boi', but even that's rare), as it's a term directed towards CAMAB trans people and it's not my place as a CAFAB trans person to reclaim it, the example 'what not to do' sentence is...basically something I would say. And have said, many times, though never all at once.
I suffer from intense dysphoria. I've become a shut-in because of it. I get nervous breakdowns whenever I hear anybody refer to my parts as 'female', and that happens a f**king LOT. I would basically sell my soul to be CAMAB (though with better genetics than what I've got now...I'm not female, but I'm feminine, and despite everyone being all like "oh well you don't have to look a certain way to be feminine not all guys like that are super andro you don't need a certain body type to be all that!", I just want to look a certain way, is that a f**king crime now or something? and if I took T with my genetics, I wouldn't get that, and if I was CAMAB with my genetics, I still probably wouldn't get that, but because T effects CAFAB people differently to how it effects CAMAB ones I'd have a marginally better chance).
I'm non-binary identified. I consider myself a 'demiboy'-if gender was a spectrum with F on one end and M on the other, I'd be a teeeeeeeeeeeeensy bit on the M side, but almost in the middle. Thus, I'm not a guy, I'm trans, and slightly closer to 'guy' than otherwise.
And I support Die Cis Scum, because of reasons that I don't have the time to explain right now when I've got heaps of other things to do. It's connected to the dysphoria, yes-because cis people get to be born without dysphoria, and then they're obnoxious enough to ruin our lives more? Who the hell decided THAT was a good idea?! But I'll probably write more in the morning.
And yes, I'm proud of being trans, because I prefer the perspective it gives me to the one I had when I perceived myself as female-even through the everyday hell of dysphoria.
And whenever anybody uses that to go "OH, YOU AREN'T REALLY TRANS, LET US NORMAL PEOPLE BE TRANS AND GO RUN AWAY BACK TO YOUR HOLE YOU CIS-FEMALE FREAK, YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T HAVE DYSPHORIA AS BAD AS MINE OR ANYTHING, YOU'RE JUST A STUPID FAKE!", I...I don't know a way to describe my reaction that wouldn't possibly trigger the hell out of a reader. It's not a particularly nice one.
So yes.
I. Am. Not. A. Fake.