I am trying to find clothes that are non-binary. Most of the clothes in shops are either hyper masculine or hyper feminine. Or at least they are marketed this way.
Are there stores that carry non-binary fashion or androgynous fashion?
Thanks
Adonia (first time using this name!!!)
Hmm depends on what you are looking for? What country you live in perhaps?
Thrift stores are good. No one notices if you go to the men's section or the women's.
Landsend.com has some more androgynous stuff at a decent price. (Somewhat less so, eddiebauer.com, etc.
I think summer clothes are a bit harder than winter.
--Jay Jay
Thanks Jay-Jay,
I prefer a website because it will be more difficult to visit a store.
I will check out land's end. But I was wondering if a store specifically designs clothes with non-binary or androgyns in mind?
Thanks
For women bodied people:
http://fashionfinder.asos.com/womens-outfits/androgynous (http://fashionfinder.asos.com/womens-outfits/androgynous)
Unspecified body:
http://www.androgynousfashion.com/ (http://www.androgynousfashion.com/)
A lot of places seem to recommend JC Penny's, Old Navy, etc. for looking for more unisex/androgynous clothing.
Edit: I'm still looking around for specific lines, but I'm not coming up with much.
I just read Urban outfitters and american apparel. I didn't like the later, not the clothes, but the poses of the models. But if you could get past that....abercrombie & fitch is another one. I have not shopped at any of these. Just did a google search "where to buy androgynous clothes".
--Jay Jay
Thanks for the sites Lynn, I'll have to check into them tomorrow, let you know what I think.
I shop online and have a shopping friend that we don't care what dept we're shopping in.
Goodwill and other thrift places, to JC Penney's to Macy's. Don't forget Hot Topic.
I'm good, I slam through racks and we decide pretty quick with and for each other, although I'm better at it.
It's just some basic rules, what the imagination of others are about, and always always go for the cut that fits you.
That's far more important than the style itself. 90% of it is how it lies on you, a little to snug here or there or a little to loose and it can devastate the look from on the hanger. And color. Has to match up to skin tones for the most part.
There are lot's of clothes that can go either way, depending on the fit and what you wear them with.
I just got done posting that I'm wearing camouflage cargo pants (loose fit, except tight belt) and a (tight) black t-shirt.
Sounds pretty masculine? It's a kick-ass combo with 3" chunky heels. It works. (It works the imagination of those looking)
Always try to bring a 'trusted with fashion friend' along who knows what you like, it helps a lot. Or send pics for opinions.
(confessions of a born shopaholic)
Ativan
Thanks a lot guys. Lynn the websites seem really good. I will check them out.
At the same time, nonbinary clothing is really any clothing that nonbinary people wear. We aren't our clothes.
Good luck.
Quote from: Carbon on May 18, 2012, 06:42:15 AM
At the same time, nonbinary clothing is really any clothing that nonbinary people wear. We aren't our clothes.
True, we aren't our clothes, but I think there's more than that.
There's clothing that you can't look at it and say "that was made for women" or "that was made for men."
Of course what women wear and what men wear are defined by society's expectations blah blah blah, but the expectations are there. A gown is for women. A tux for men. And for someone who doesn't want their dress to express either gender, we have ... what?
It seems the more formal the setting, the harder it is to find non-specific clothes. Men and women's floppy sweats are indistinguishable, but men's suits look nothing like women's suits.
Until our friend Metroland posted this, I didn't really think about dressing androgynously at all. But I looked at some of the stuff they had on those sites, and the idea is intriguing. It irks me though, that everything seems to be directed toward a female body. Us male-bodied folk are gettin' no love.
Is there really a difference between non binary clothing and whatnot?
QuoteA gown is for women. A tux for men.
I've definitely known women who preferred suits, though. It didn't make them any less of a woman.
I'm totally behind anything that lets people be more happy and fulfilled, but the significance comes internally, from what you would be even without any clothes at all.
My favorite example of a woman wanting a suit is a wedding I went to where the groom had asked his close female friend to be his best man, so she came to the wedding wearing a suit to better fit that role. ;D
Quote from: Carbon on May 18, 2012, 07:55:11 AM
I've definitely known women who preferred suits, though. It didn't make them any less of a woman.
Me too. Women can look amazing in suits that's are cut well to their figure.
But when I wear a suit, it doesn't feel androgynous, it feels very male.
Quote from: agfrommd on May 18, 2012, 09:33:39 AM
Me too. Women can look amazing in suits that's are cut well to their figure.
I'm thinking of suits cut to fit men.
People do what they do.
Suit cuts for men are getting more tight in the middle, similar to a womens cut, some lines.
I forget which ones and were I was shopping, Kohls maybe? They were nice.
On the other hand, there are suits in the womens lines that have a very male look to them.
I haven't run into to many that really define an Androgynous kind of look (subjective).
A nicely cut mens suit, cut a little in at the waist and womens dress pants, straight leg at least, look very well together.
Some taller heels, just peeking out will enhance the look quite a bit.
Accessories, jewelry and watches work well if they don't stand out to much. Even a tasteful pin is nice.
The subliminal will charge the imagination of those who see.
But true, if you are wearing it, it becomes non-binary by default.
Follow your instincts and ask friends for opinions.
Ativan
Quote from: Carbon on May 18, 2012, 09:34:42 AM
I'm thinking of suits cut to fit men.
Yup, I'll agree.
Of course the male part of me is straight, so I think women look good in just about anything.
Non-binary clothing... gosh, isn't that what we still call 'unisex' ?
There aught to be plenty of just that, and mostly in the men's side of department stores.
Easy peacy I'd say,
Axélle
I would agree with that Axélle said.
It's not really the clothes that makes you look androgynous anyway, it's mostly what you look like overall and clothes are only a complement.
Odd as it seems, unisex is still for binary people to look genderless.
The same but different. Probably just splitting hairs here, but I feel that there is a difference.
As we are already without gender or a third gender, so to speak, we're defining ourselves as such.
Which is going to be very different from one non-binary to the next.
Unisex has a look of binary trying to define that androgynous look, a fashion statement.
Whereas we are just trying to look like ourselves. Subtle, yet there.
To use unisex as a fashion statement is a reinforcement of binary gender.
Yep it's weird, I know, but it is a point of view that I can't deny to myself or another.
Just remember that androgynous is an expression of appearance.
You can look androgynous and not be Androgyn
You can be Androgyn and not look androgynous
If You are Androgyn and look androgynous, you don't.
You then look androgyn. Which can have a look of androgynous, but it isn't.
I posted that last Oct 2nd in the beginning of the thread on the difference between androgynous and androgyne.
I still feel this way about it.
I'm not binary and I want to avoid that fashion appearance. I want to dress like me.
It's difficult and is a part of finding myself in all of this, it's a part of transition that is particular to me.
Ativan
I think this topic should be moved to:
Androgynous Expression, Appearance and Style
for discussion of Androgynous Expression, Appearance, Fashion and Style.
It's a good thread, better served there, if the Mods agree?
Some interesting posts, points of view.
Ativan
For me there's 3 types of clothing, male's clothes, female's clothes and unisex.
Maybe I still do not understand that whole non-binary transintergender or whatever you call it, but I think that this sounds way too complex for what it is.
If I understand this correctly, non-binary is basically between the male-female thingie, which would be what unisex is or something. It doesn't even have to be a piece of clothing that's tagged as unisex. I have ''binary'' clothes but I still look ''non-binary'' (I guess?) because of how I mix them and how I look.
It doesn't really matter, it's the final result that counts.
Quote from: Oriole on May 18, 2012, 12:33:45 PM
If I understand this correctly, non-binary is basically between the male-female thingie,
I wouldn't use the word "between". Non-binary means not totally male and not totally female. Some people switch back and forth, some people feel genderless or a member of a third gender that is neither male nor female. I feel like I have parts of my personality that are distinctly male and parts that are decidedly female.
For me, dressing androgynously (which I don't ... yet) would mean wearing clothing that lets me express both my male and female parts. A tall order, but some of the items on the websites they posted piqued my interest.
Quote from: Oriole on May 18, 2012, 12:33:45 PM
For me there's 3 types of clothing, male's clothes, female's clothes and unisex.
Maybe I still do not understand that whole non-binary transintergender or whatever you call it, but I think that this sounds way too complex for what it is.
If I understand this correctly, non-binary is basically between the male-female thingie, which would be what unisex is or something. It doesn't even have to be a piece of clothing that's tagged as unisex. I have ''binary'' clothes but I still look ''non-binary'' (I guess?) because of how I mix them and how I look.
It doesn't really matter, it's the final result that counts.
Correct. Unisex is marketed as a genderless fashion statement. That's OK. I use some that I like.
The combinations of gendered clothes is a real treat, to find what makes you feel non-binary, as opposed to androgynous.
It's not as complex as it is subtle, i think.
I don't view non-binary as a place between genders, but as a place that parallels that middle ground for binaries.
Subtle, yet complex, do to the cross overs that can and do occur.
We are not something in between.
We are people who have a separate identity from a binary spectrum.
We have our own spectrum that doesn't have ends (or destinations) to it.
Not the same, different. Despite the parallels.
It's those parallels that we share at times and they share with us.
Not an Us vs Them, simply Us and Them. Subtle, yet there.
It does matter, as the final result should be you.
Another thread here asks the question of why are we so special (something like that).
That it does matter, is why you are special. That final result. You are special.
Ativan
Quote from: Ativan on May 18, 2012, 12:28:00 PM
I think this topic should be moved to:
Androgynous Expression, Appearance and Style
for discussion of Androgynous Expression, Appearance, Fashion and Style.
It's a good thread, better served there, if the Mods agree?
Some interesting posts, points of view.
Ativan
OK, I've moved it.
Z
Quote from: agfrommd on May 18, 2012, 12:58:46 PM
Some people switch back and forth,
Good point of my speculation of a parallel spectrum.
Although I really haven't a clue, some Bigenders seem to hint at the cross overs that I think are there.
I think it is very much a part of them. Subtle compexities of Trans* People.
This is important. It's a part of the Us and Them that is undeniable. It's why we are Trans*.
(correct me if I'm wrong, like I said, I haven't a clue.)
Ativan
Quote from: agfrommd on May 18, 2012, 12:58:46 PM
For me, dressing androgynously (which I don't ... yet) would mean wearing clothing that lets me express both my male and female parts. A tall order, but some of the items on the websites they posted piqued my interest.
I agree with this. Also non-binary is an expression of certain amounts of masculine and feminine. There is a part of me that is feminine that wants to express itself in fashion and the masculine part of me wants to express itself in fashion too.
I don't understand why the outside can't express the inside in fashion?
Unisex I think is used for sorting purposes more than anything else. A t-shirt can be unisex but that doesn't say much about the wearer of the shirt.
I still think that it is in-between because you cannot be ''genderless'', because in order you would have to be perfectly neutral about everything. You would basically have no personality.
Everybody possess male and female qualities but I think that the people who consider themselves non-binary feel like they are close to the 50-50, which is fine.
What I kind of have a problem with, and I am sorry if I offend anyone, is about all the non-binary genders that exist. I've read a little about them and they're basically all the same with barely any differences, as if people were trying to invent new categories to put themselves in, in order to feel special or something.
As for the clothes, I also found out that child-like clothings work very well for androgynous people. Since children aren't hyper-sexualized, their clothes tend to be more neutral. I'm not saying to go shop in the child section, or maybe it doesn't work well with everyone but I think that it works okay with the way I personally present myself and I stick to that instead of trying special shops on the net or something.
Like this for example:
http://i45.tinypic.com/1zx2v5x.png (http://i45.tinypic.com/1zx2v5x.png)
Simple shape (Rectangular), slim and flat on the chest area works best in my opinion.
There are many ways to look non-binary and I think we each have to find our own.
Quote from: Oriole on May 18, 2012, 04:31:54 PM
I still think that it is in-between because you cannot be ''genderless'', because in order you would have to be perfectly neutral about everything. You would basically have no personality.
Oriole there is a category that is agender. This is the group of people who do not identify with a particular gender. Here is a wiki link for the definition http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Agender (http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Agender)
Quote from: Oriole on May 18, 2012, 04:31:54 PM
What I kind of have a problem with, and I am sorry if I offend anyone, is about all the non-binary genders that exist. I've read a little about them and they're basically all the same with barely any differences, as if people were trying to invent new categories to put themselves in, in order to feel special or something.
I think that everyone identifies with a specific gender, or none in the case of agendered people. Here is an excellent explanation of what non-binary gender:
QuoteNon-Binary Genders are gender identities that don't fit within the accepted binary of male and female. People can feel they are both, neither, or some mixture thereof. It might be easier to view gender as a 1-dimensional spectrum with male on one end, female on the other, and androgyne in the middle- but the reality is that gender is more complex, and 3-dimensional models with axes for male, female, and how strongly you feel attached to that gender identity have been suggested.
The emphasis is on the last part of how strongly a person identifies with a specific gender identity.
Quote from: Oriole on May 18, 2012, 04:31:54 PM
There are many ways to look non-binary and I think we each have to find our own.
Agreed
You can identify yourself as agender if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you still have qualities of both males and females. Even if you could, could you describe to me in details what that would imply other than self-identification?
Yes it changes the fact. Sorry I am not agender so I cannot answer your question.
You do not need to be agender to answer my question.
If you say that it changes the ''fact'', you need to show me some evidences that are behind your belief and not close the discussion with a ''This is this and that is that''.
Quote from: Oriole on May 18, 2012, 06:01:43 PM
You do not need to be agender to answer my question.
Okay, I'll take a crack. I'm not generally agender, but I do feel that way from time to time. I'll only speak from my own experience.
You asked what it means to feel agendered, right?
It's NOT that I don't feel the presence of gender. It's that I KNOW it's not there. I know that whatever other people seem to be experiencing as gender, I don't have it. I was born without it.
It's a kind of certainty (in my case misplaced, because it usually doesn't last long) that I am not experiencing what the rest of the world is when they refer to gender.
Does this help?
Not really. Then agender would not be anything else than a ''feeling''. Even though you KNOW that it is not there, you probably have male and female traits even if you don't think about genders like most people do.
It's difficult to explain it in terms of non-binary, when the language we use is based on binary.
There is great difficulty in explaining any non-binary 'type', when terms used can only be from a binary perspective.
Which is the language. There aren't any definitions or labels or terms or descriptions that are not based on binary language.
There are in other languages and cultures that do have these built into their languages.
Unfortunately, the English language, especially US English is binary based.
Define yourself without using binary terms....
I'm not asking you to, but rather, to think about it.
The technicalities of explaining anything non-binary is difficult at best, nearly impossible in some cases.
We all have this same problem with communicating among ourselves.
LOL, it is central to most discussions here.
Ativan
I'll think about this a little more, but I still do not believe that it makes any sense.
It does, it will, it's a little abstract, more so at first.
I have patience and faith in you, that it will come together.
Ativan
Doesn't anybody else wander around a shop in a daze and then go 'I like that'...because that's how I shop.
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 19, 2012, 08:55:10 AM
Doesn't anybody else wander around a shop in a daze and then go 'I like that'...because that's how I shop.
I wish.
My reaction to shopping is the most male part of my personality. I want to get in, out, and on with my life.
I'd make a really lousy MtF.
BTW, love the new pic.
That's what the daze is for, to make the tedium part of it easier to deal with.
I don't shop often, I've had the shirt in the picture for nearly a decade, but when I do, I try on focus on what I like and leave semiotics to other people. It may help that I don't rate clothes very highly.
Thanks for the comment bytheway, I was just impressed with the height of my hair this morning and had to take a photie.
Quote from: Oriole on May 18, 2012, 10:31:42 PM
Not really. Then agender would not be anything else than a ''feeling''. Even though you KNOW that it is not there, you probably have male and female traits even if you don't think about genders like most people do.
What are "male and female traits"? And what is gender other than a "feeling"? Whenever people talk about gender, it feels the same as when people talk about souls. Just because you say I have one doesn't mean I have to believe you. And there certainly isn't anything like enough data to "prove" the existence of either beyond some fairly obvious socially and culturally derived norms.
But I'm a good girl, and I'm willing to accept that it's different for other folks, that they have really strong feelings about gender, that they have intrinsic gender identities and whatnot. That's cool. I can respect that. But it ends at the tip of my surgically-altered little nose. I am my body, my sex, my flesh. That's it.
And I don't really identify as agender. That's just a word people made up to describe people like me. I don't feel a need to identify an absence.
Quote from: Oriole on May 19, 2012, 12:25:46 AM
I'll think about this a little more, but I still do not believe that it makes any sense.
That's fine. I don't think you make much sense either. But we don't really have to understand each other to get along. Just a drop or two of respect is enough. Okay?
Quote from: Metroland on May 18, 2012, 04:30:21 PM
I agree with this. Also non-binary is an expression of certain amounts of masculine and feminine. There is a part of me that is feminine that wants to express itself in fashion and the masculine part of me wants to express itself in fashion too.
I basically do the opposite of this I guess. I like clothes that you can't easily identify whether they came from the men's or the women's section of the store. I don't know why. Maybe because it's a way of visually opting out of a system I don't like very much. Maybe it's just 'cause they make me look really hot. ;)
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 19, 2012, 08:55:10 AM
Doesn't anybody else wander around a shop in a daze and then go 'I like that'...because that's how I shop.
Sometimes I wander
everywhere in a daze. :D
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 19, 2012, 08:55:10 AM
Doesn't anybody else wander around a shop in a daze and then go 'I like that'...because that's how I shop.
Yes, haha. I tend to lose track of what gendered section of the store I'm in.
Jamie, how long have you been a mod? Have you always been and I'm just oblivious?
Quote from: Julian on May 19, 2012, 12:03:40 PM
Yes, haha. I tend to lose track of what gendered section of the store I'm in.
Jamie, how long have you been a mod? Have you always been and I'm just oblivious?
No, I was asked just recently. I'm still feeling my way and learning new things.
Thanks for noticing.
I hope you are healing well.
Quote from: Jamie D on May 22, 2012, 01:07:11 AM
No, I was asked just recently. I'm still feeling my way and learning new things.
Thanks for noticing.
I hope you are healing well.
Well, congratulations then! ;D
And I'm healing very well; thanks for asking. :)