I want to come out to more of my binary friends. But what words do I use to explain what being non-binary is in a way that's convincing and easy to understand? Nothing I've come up with convinces even ME.
What do other people say?
I shall watch this space like you will, - I guess.
It might disprove my understanding of: "What we can't feel - we don't understand..."
So let's see what gives, eh? :)
Axélle
I'm still of the opinion of not explaining, just being - eventually they will try and explain who you are to you, and by then they are doing the hard job for you.
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 08, 2012, 11:19:30 AM
I'm still of the opinion of not explaining, just being - eventually they will try and explain who you are to you, and by then they are doing the hard job for you.
I love your post Pica! :)
Might be easier here for someone who presents more androgynously, like you do Pica. We'll see, though I am wondering if anyone would exactly notice. I mean really notice. I think people also try to be polite. We'll see as I have really amped up how androgynously I present. It's really going to be hard not to notice this, but people do work so hard at not noticing things. :)
--Jay Jay
I still don't understand it.
I don't present all that androgynously though. I spend most days in a shirt and tie.
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 08, 2012, 11:19:30 AM
I'm still of the opinion of not explaining, just being - eventually they will try and explain who you are to you, and by then they are doing the hard job for you.
Brilliant. Flawless.
A scintillating diamond of wisdom. :icon_biggrin:
-Emerald
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 08, 2012, 12:40:56 PM
I don't present all that androgynously though. I spend most days in a shirt and tie.
You look much more debonair in a smoking jacket.
I've worn it out once or twice, always a positive reaction.
As for my passive approach, I merely find that people will always listen to themselves better than to you.
So, the current issue is how to come out to my 16-year old son. He knows something is up. He asked where I was last night when I came home from my gender identity support group. I told him I was at a meeting and a few of us went out afterward, but he knows he's not getting the whole story.
Not sure what to say to him.
I don't want to make a big deal of it. "Son, sit down. Let me tell you about these people they call androgynes...". On the other hand "Son, your dad thinks he's part girl" seems a bit flip.
Ideas?
>"Son, your dad thinks he's part girl" seems a bit flip.
>Ideas?
Oh dear, well probably not. :) I had someone figure it out as I definitely have begun to dress more androgynously. She said "what's up with this?" Anyway, it worked out really well but she sat me down and we watched RuPaul's drag race and Eddie Izzard. :D
Maybe you could use some kind of "lead in" like that pendant? It helped to have something to break the ice.
Here's an interesting one (law of polarity):http://www.peacefulmind.com/feng_shui.htm#Metal Drop
There's the transgender symbol:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=TRANSGENDER+Symbol+Pewter+Pendant+GAY+LESBIAN+SALE (http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=TRANSGENDER+Symbol+Pewter+Pendant+GAY+LESBIAN+SALE)
http://www.zazzle.com/androgyny_button-145297597972405710 (http://www.zazzle.com/androgyny_button-145297597972405710)
Or cafepress?
I understand the palm tree is an androgyny symbol. I don't know why. Maybe they'd think you just want a vacation. :)
--Jay Jay
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 08, 2012, 12:36:30 PM
I still don't understand it.
Hum, neither does anyone else as it appears, and so we seem in good company.
Somewhat reassuring it is in deed. Something that just IS... I may guess.
Like the stars and the moon... eh? :P
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle on June 11, 2012, 12:37:08 AM
Hum, neither does anyone else as it appears, and so we seem in good company.
Somewhat reassuring it is in deed. Something that just IS... I may guess.
Like the stars and the moon... eh? :P
Axélle
You might have something there. I just think I understand it, and it melts away. I try not to figure out if I understand everything. :)
I think the just "IS" is about right. Since I do not feel like I am any gender at all, how could I explain this. I actually explain it to others as being not really a female and not really a male. I guess that could be true too.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 08, 2012, 05:15:58 PM
I've worn it out once or twice, always a positive reaction.
As for my passive approach, I merely find that people will always listen to themselves better than to you.
I can understand that, as no one ever listens to me anyway.
Quote from: agfrommd on June 07, 2012, 03:43:15 PM
I want to come out to more of my binary friends. But what words do I use to explain what being non-binary is in a way that's convincing and easy to understand? Nothing I've come up with convinces even ME.
What do other people say?
I had an idea, and I had to look no further than my own avatar.
Greek mythology.
The ancient Greeks used their myths/legends as a way of describing and understanding things that were sometimes out of the ordinary. The myth of Hermaphroditus was a way to understand the appearance of intersexed individuals, as well as those who had non-binary identities.
There is also the myth of Tiresias - a "motif for doubleness (male/female)".
The Egyptians had the Ogdoad, four male-female pairs: Nu and Naunet, Amun and Amaunet, Kuk and Kauket, and Huh and Hauhet.
Neith (also from Egyptian mythology) was said to be an androgyne although she was usually depicted as female.
It's not so much that we don't understand it. It's that we don't understand it yet. We haven't had our brains dissected yet (I don't think) and haven't been researched to the same extent that binary people have (if at all). Therefore, we don't know what they look like yet.
Personally, I've found that just being myself and letting other people figure it out doesn't work at all. People are too busy telling me who I should be and who they think I am instead actually bothering to see me.
Ancient Egypt is near and dear to my heart. It's full of myths that transcend gender, and the overall evidence seems to be that they generally professed a gender binary but didn't consider it absolute by any means, and weren't too surprised by people or gods that didn't fit into it.
Neith is a good example, "father of fathers and mother of mothers." Nepthys was called "artificial woman without any vagina." Hapi was a male fertility god with breasts. When gods were combined into syncretized forms, they didn't much care that the constituent parts had matching genders or the result had a coherent gender (Sekhmet-Min or Sekhmet-Bast-Ra for instance). Of course the king could be a woman; it wasn't common but she was still considered to be the son of Heru. Meanwhile both the crown and the power of the throne were female. The deity most strongly associated with perfume and flowers was male.
Quote from: Edge on June 11, 2012, 05:32:02 AM
Personally, I've found that just being myself and letting other people figure it out doesn't work at all. People are too busy telling me who I should be and who they think I am instead actually bothering to see me.
this is always annoying
somehow the fujoshi and this brother of mine whom i traumatized with tom of finland's 'kake' got it without me really having to tell them. but those were people i could be myself around, instead of being constantly forced to be someone else
Yeah, many religions and mythologies provide a wealth of non-binary people/gods/ect. Also, looking into various cultures, there are examples of groups and people who's genders are non-binary. (There's some debate on whether eunuchs would be considered an "other gender.") Also, the animal kingdom gives a surprising variance of gender. (Though I wouldn't put too much stock in that, but it does demonstrates how the binary concept of gender is a simplification.) Even in terms of the physical (genitalia/genetics/brain structure/etc.) there is a large amount of ambiguity. While non-binary genders are not currently understood/accepted as a whole in modern Western culture, it is gaining more and more visibility. That non-binary gender has even just some government support within a few countries provides further suggestion that human genders beyond male and female exist.
Oh! I almost forgot Casey! One could say, "Ever seen Mr. Dress Up? I'm like Casey." (When asked whether Casey was a boy or a girl, the response would be "What do you think Casey is?" followed by "yes" to whatever the kid said. At least, I think that's what they said.)
So complicated!
What if you simply said something like this:
"Are you biologically male, feel you are only a male, and are sexually oriented only to people who are biologically female and feel they are only female?
OR
"Are you biologically female, feel you are only a female, and are sexually oriented only to people who are biologically only male and feel they are male?"
If so you are in the binary sexual and gender part of the spectrum.
BUT
If not strictly as defined above? Then you are outside the binary sexual and gender part of the spectrum.
I've just finished reading China Mieville's "Embassytown," in which there's an alien race that cannot lie, whose language is always literal (except for similes, which still have to have some literal anchor) and has no generic "that" -- but they have to learn, in order to deal with a particular threat. (It's complicated and weird, like most of his novels.)
Some of the failure of communication between humans and this race reminded me of trying to explain nonbinary gender to some people. It's like trying to explain irrational numbers to someone who only understands integers. You have to take it in stages.