I mean indefinitely.
Eh, there's Wild Flower who seems to be planning such a thing, I believe.
In any case, if you're thinking of such a thing for yourself, I would suggest making talking to a therapist a priority. It's not like there's anything fundamentally wrong with it, but such intentions, especially since you've made a decision to transition, may very well be drawn more by fear than genuine feelings... And that might end up feeling very wrong in the end.
Also, you need to consider the possible issues. I'm not going to define which might be easier, but it's not like that path will be obstacle-free. Knowing how you look (and sound), I think it's likely that you would have trouble being credible as male at some point. And when breasts come in and become obvious, it won't be easy to hide. To live as fully male, I think you might have to find just as many excuses and such as if you transitioned... And if you don't, well, it might be more of an androgynous life, which is fine too, but it's not what you mentioned.
It's only my very own opinion, but if you truly feel female inside, I think it may not be a good idea not to transition fully... Especially at your age. You have a great opportunity for a very nice start in life as a female, don't you? If you decide to take this path and later realise that it's not what you wanted, you might find yourself regretting your choice, when you have entered university and whatnot as male, or you have already started a career or such. Not that the same is impossible with the other path, but having already reflected upon transition, I guess that you already knew that.
That's why I think you should make it extra clear with your therapist. What is making you doubt? What is your gender identity, deep down? What was it that made you decide upon transition in the first place? What changed? What are your fears? What are your goals?
Of course, if you think your gender identity is more androgynous or ambiguous, then it might be a logical course of action. But even then, I would advise to talk to a gender therapist about it, because this is an important decision, too. Seeing as it seems to contradict your previous course of action, I feel that it would do you a great deal of good to deeply investigate the matter.
Oh no I wasn't talking about myself lol. My gender identity is not changing, I am not detransitioning, and I am not going to pull a Michelle Penner (may she RIP). But yeah you're totally right, I was looking at the window during my public health final (FAIL ;D) and even though I had on a really tight sports bra my chest was still portruding in a definetly not male way. I asked moreso because I remember someone posting about a ts who took hormones but was not going to present female because she felt at the end of the day she knew who she was and the hormones brought her inner peace. I kind of wanted to have this segway into if you believe the hormones can bring enough mental peace that the phsycial starts to matter much less for some people.
It specifically says in WPATH that hormones might be enough for some people to make things tolerable. And yeah for some people HRT is the main thing they need to be happy, for others it's SRS or living socially as a woman, for many people it's some combination.
Lots of people. Here's the thing. As long as you understand what HRT may do to you including physical and emotional, as long as you are out to the loved ones in your life who may see changes (intimate partner, etc), what's it really matter? Why do you have to have a time frame to go full time? What if living socially as male but taking HRT makes you feel like not killing yourself, happy, less depressed, fulfilled, just-enough-for-now-stop-putting-your-SOC-timeframes-one-me, etc.? Find a medical provider that practices informed consent, explain to them where you are coming from. Maybe you want to see changes physically before you go full time? I don't know your specific situation, but there are quite a few irl people who do this with medical supervision who live happy lives. As long as you do your research, are under medical supervision, etc. I don't see why you couldn't?
I'm really envious of you, you know. I have almost 4 times your time on HRT and despite that, I still don't have anything visible in that area...
Oh, and by the way, I think that it's not the most healthy thing to compress your breasts when they are growing. It might hinder growth. Instead, you might want to try shirts that are too large or something.
I know I am switching from a sports bra to one of those gym shirts that act a second skin or something, I hear those bring your chest down but dont squish anything.
Indefinitely is a bit hard to quantify. I've been doing it for 3 years now and am a good A to a B cup. I am finally proud to be in my body and out presenting as the real me in the real world whenever I can, which is most weekends. I need to do male for the $$$$.
As Meghan said, it can be an emotional roller coaster. I do have a wife/soul-mate in the middle of this that always knew about me. But we need to live apart right now because I have to work way out of state. I describe it as having 3 lives; A husband in NJ, a guy working in WV, and a woman in WV. After 3 years of it one is becoming very dominant. Going full-time means loosing the job so that is no option. Though are are times I wonder "What if.....". Conversely, at this point in my journey, loosing my job or my wife will likely lead to going full-time. For now the balancing act is working and at least one of the 3 lives is filled with joy.
Baggy dress shirts and a shaper cami keeps the girls under control at work without any of the pain that others I know complained about with those compression Tees sold for guys. If ou knew what and where to look, you can tell. Especially when I am out doing my walks and the wet tee shirt contest look dominates :o
I am an individual who decided to live as male and take hormones only. There are plenty of us around but we aren't too vocal. The existence of TS or those with GID who can get by with just HRT tend to upset those who think complete transition is the only way. It's not fun being called "not a real TS" because we don't transition.
I was taking E exclusively and have had an orchi. However due to a medical disorder with my blood, I've had to stop all HRT now. I still do my best to make due. I can supply more details if you have specific questions.
Let's establish you are just talking about male-to-female transition. The question is actually quite complex.
First, consider how the logistics of transition work. In some places you must have at least 1 year of real life experience (RLE) before you can begin hormone replacement therapy (HRT). In other places you can do RLE and HRT concurrently. In still other places, you can start HRT before RLE. Only in the latter situation, could one live as a "male" while on HRT.
Then there is the issue of what type of HRT. Anti-androgens? Estrogen? Other meds?
The general rule of thumb is that you don't begin HRT without the desire to pursue a full transition, or at least to the RLE stage. (Knowing some transitioners may be, for whatever reason, unable to pursue gender reassignment surgery.)
Another alternative is that of low-dose HRT. There is a growing body of medical literature and practice, of treating gender dysphoria with one or more forms of ultra low-dose HRT. We have several posters here who are doing this, under medical supervision, or are contemplating doing this. As one poster here put it (IIRC), it was an attempt to "unscramble" his brain. He was initially on AA's.
So you can see the complications.
I plan on two years of hormones, ffs and laser before I try to switch. I want to give myself the best chance of acceptance I can. I will probably move and change job at the same time.
Quote from: Bailey's Irish on June 13, 2012, 01:08:50 AM
It is commendable that some are willing to subject themselves to trial and error research, formal or otherwise, for the benefit of the rest of us and themselves. If they were unwilling to do so, we would all be constrained to the same protocol. If professionals and transgendered people fail to work together to accomplish what is wanted rather than what is predefined, progress within the community will deteriorate. I would consider this a very good step.
As a dinosaur that goes way back to the 70's I can assure you this is not trial and error research. It was taking place back then and may only be making it into medical literature now. However, there were and still are plenty of trans people taking hormones and living dual lives. Where do think those supposedly learned people got the idea from! Especially in the light of knowing how long it is taking for these same medical professionals to not consider us a bunch of mentally ill people in need of a cure
I am in that category, taking E but living as male, except in the privacy of my home and my SO. First I dabbled in phytoestrogens, then the real thing on and off for a couple of years and finally mid last year I decided my gid was not going away so I had to deal with it. I am now under medical supervision and started a lowish dose of E. After 8 months my hormone results came back putting me firmly in the female range and all this on low E and without AA. There are changes and going bare chested is now pretty much out of the question. I am 50, very tall and have a dozen more reasons why transitioning isn't feasible for me. I can not imagine stopping E at this point. No-one has noticed, but I am told all the time that I look great, more relaxed, younger, thinner etc etc. Do I wish I could transition - YES! What the future will bring I have no idea. I am stuck in the middle and that is not easy. I often wake up and ask myself, WTF are you doing, but I also know that I can not ignore my GID.
Tanya
I'm in the same boat as many of the others here. On HRT to unscramble my brain, and not intending to transition at this point. I'm in too much debt, and have too many obligations that take greater priority for me.
I've been on HRT for almost 4 months now. E only for 6 weeks, E + spiro since. If you know what to look for, you may possibly realise I've got some mosquito bites happening - I'm developing a bit too well for my objectives (I'm not saying that I don't like the changes - it's just that they're happening too soon for my situation). I'm probably going to have to talk to my endo about lowering my dosages at the next review appointment.
I have to say it's tempting to go the other way, but I'm mentally comfortable with where I'm at right now to not have to. The ground work has been done though - electro finished, basic voice etc;
Having reached and older age I realize that no decision is either right or wrong. Each decision we make has consequences some of which we will be happy with and some of which we will be unhappy with. There are even times that it doesn't really matter what we chose because in the end we wind up in the same place in the end. Now I am not talking about the decisions we make when we drive a car. It makes a difference if we drive into the tree or we don't. Even so in the end we do wind up dead. Sometimes we have to look at our decisions in terms of which will we be happy with and which one we will survive to decide another day. We can be happy, but end up crashing and burning. We can be unhappy today. But when the next decision comes we are alive to turn towards happiness. I grew up in the Dakotas. When you get stuck in a blizzard you hunker down if you have shelter. If you don't have shelter you make sure you are bundled up tight and your scarf is wrapped around your head. You set your course and you walk through the storm. Not walking is not an option, because you don't survive. There is no sadness or happiness. If you sit down you will fall asleep and not wake up.
I have survived by walking through my storms because my faith was my shelter. I hunkered down. I lived to decide another day. Yes, I wish that along time ago, that I would have been me. When I first realized that I was a female, when I was thirteen. I made a choice to deal with it now which in 1959 may have well have meant death or when I got old. I chose to deal when I got old. Well Michelle was always there trying the best I could, and Michelle was still there when I was old. My male world fell apart and I was left with Michelle. Now I wish I would have dealt with it when I was younger because most of the things I was afraid would happen, happened any way. It didn't matter. What did matter is that I did survive to be myself.
Are decisions right or wrong. Not in my world. Decisions are happy or sad. When they reach the point that I can not live with the sadness, then I have to decide again. Then I hope the next decision will be happier, but if it isn't I keep trying until it is happier. I guess this is the definition of an optimist.
As far as transitioning I feel we are always transitioning in some way or another. If HRT gives you breasts and you are self conscious about them. The question then becomes, Can you live without them? My guess is that you can't or you wouldn't have them. You may have problems dealing with the femininity you have obtained. But do you really want it to go away? Sooner or latter you will go farther because in my world if you were really male and not female you would not be where you are now. But then I am in my sixties and my sense of being developed in another mental and emotional dimension.
These are just thoughts. This is what grandmas do. Reflect and try and pass on the lessons life has taught them.
I'm doing something like this right now (not really by choice, but I'm still living at home), and after 14 months on HRT there's no way I can pass as a guy. Besides getting boobs and hips, my cheeks and face have filled out and my eyebrows have thinned out naturally to look more feminine. Not to mention the loss of muscle.
It might be possible depending on your starting point, but I think after a year or two on HRT you'll either be seen as a woman or androgynous.
Quote from: Hannah on June 13, 2012, 11:17:54 AM
I'm doing something like this right now (not really by choice, but I'm still living at home), and after 14 months on HRT there's no way I can pass as a guy. Besides getting boobs and hips, my cheeks and face have filled out and my eyebrows have thinned out naturally to look more feminine. Not to mention the loss of muscle.
It might be possible depending on your starting point, but I think after a year or two on HRT you'll either be seen as a woman or androgynous.
This is true I think, sometimes I look in the mirror and realise im starting to look more and more girly, if it carries on I might start getting awkward questions.
I know after about 9.5 months of a full HRT regimen the only thing that makes me look male without makeup is my facial hair. If that was completely gone I don't think many people would ID me as born male. My skin has turned "milky" and it's hard to tell if I'm "wearing make up or not", in my roommates words. My jaw and chin have lost so much fat that people think my bone structure has changed when they see how I looked before (as has been told to me by 3 people so far). It's more awkward for me to go out into the world without make up (to cover up the remaining facial hair) and in boys clothes than it is to go out in the world as just a typical female.
Not everyone gets dramatic changes but I would be prepared. If you're just scared to go out as a female, keep in mind you may reach a point where you're scared to go out as a male, because you'll get more funny looks if you do!
I am also in the "taking low dose HRT but not transitioning" boat. I'm bigender and started experiencing uncontrollable wild swings between boy and girl modes, and impulses that i could not control, or were unwise (such as girl mode wanting SRS). I was clearly headed for a divorce on the path that i was headed down.
HRT calmed the swings and stopped the immediate urgency to act on those wild impulses. Girl mode still thinks that she's MTF but i can keep her from acting on that thought, because boy mode would NOT be happy with transition. I'm generally happy living as a boy.
I'm in the dinosaur club as well, and as an older member I have been quite surprised at the response my body has had on E (A cups and growing, more youthful appearance, etc). I have shirts that cannot be worn now without putting on a show.
The changes from HRT are the price I have to pay to keep my head on level.
S it seems like quite a few people here do the hrt but no transition thing. I definitely agree that it would be hard to present as male after a while. I mean, the little facial hair I had is gone and I have no visible Adams apple so people would have to look at my privates for the best gender cue lol. I am very surprised at the changes in my face since I always has a passable, feminine face but I look younger now than I did at 13 (I'll be 18 in a few months)! Also, ow do people go out with their breasts and present as male? Its so awkward and I feel exposed doing that now and kinda naked *blushes*
Quote from: GhostTown11 on June 13, 2012, 01:40:16 PM
Also, ow do people go out with their breasts and present as male? Its so awkward and I feel exposed doing that now and kinda naked *blushes*
Loose shirts help a lot unless you're like a C cup or larger.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 13, 2012, 01:42:56 PM
Loose shirts help a lot unless you're like a C cup or larger.
Loose shirts, dark shirts, shirts with pockets or patterns. I also wear a wife beater style undershirt and that helps hide things.
The shirts I avoid are light colored, tight shirts, or thin shirts of any color.
LQTMS about the dinosaur comments! I have been reflecting lots recently (I've felt very old in my mind) and I've realised we never get old...our bodies merely fail us. Theres just too much out there to learn and experience; we are all so much like children. The dinosaurs are those people who close their minds. We've all seen or known one....their life ended at 40, or 50, or 60....at whatever age it was when they closed their mind and became set in their ways. You all are not dinosaurs!! 8)
Now on the subject...I believe a male sexed individual taking estrogen over a long period of time without transitioning can remain passable in their assigned sex. The breasts would be a real issue in time; some measures would need to be taken to cover their increasing prominence. I'm sure there would also be some issues with previously simple acts such as swim at the beach, going for a run, and more.
Unfortunately, for obvious reasons, a female sexed person taking testosterone would likely have a much harder time concealing the changes. Even a low T dose will eventually activate facial hair. I know its not the question, but I feel the unique hurdles the "FTM spectrum" lads face at least deserve mention.
Quote from: GhostTown11 on June 13, 2012, 01:40:16 PM
S it seems like quite a few people here do the hrt but no transition thing. I definitely agree that it would be hard to present as male after a while. I mean, the little facial hair I had is gone and I have no visible Adams apple so people would have to look at my privates for the best gender cue lol. I am very surprised at the changes in my face since I always has a passable, feminine face but I look younger now than I did at 13 (I'll be 18 in a few months)! Also, ow do people go out with their breasts and present as male? Its so awkward and I feel exposed doing that now and kinda naked *blushes*
To diminish the appearance of your breasts think about this:
If you wanted to show them off, you would wear a tight-fitting shirt.
So do the opposite. And layer.
There are many reasons why some transgenders do not fully transition (by that, I mean live as their gender identity and modify their bodies accordingly). You might want to read some of the older "Non-Op" topics.
I still live my external life as male even though I've been on full doses of hormones since 2009. It's my choice, although I know I'm female in my heart, the circumstances of my life mean that I can't live in the way that I want to, at least not all the time.
It's not the easiest way to be, and it requires a lot of soul searching, and I think I've reached the point where I feel I am almost beyond gender. All of my friends see me as female, but my family, employer etc. still see me as male.
Summer is difficult because it gets hot where I am and I have to wear tshirts, so it's difficult to hide B cup breasts. Winter makes things a lot easier, because I can wear a jacket. I think the hardest thing for me to hide is my butt - it's hard to hide even in kind of baggy jeans because it's very round - 40 inches around - and I weigh 150lb at 5'8 so it's quite big for my frame. It's definitely not a guy's butt. Three years of HRT really went straight to my butt, since it started at 35 inches with me at 180lb.
Even in a baseball cap, jacket, and baggy jeans, I'll get called she by people a quarter of the time, and the other quarter of the time, people just don't know what to gender me as, at least until they've interacted with me for a bit. The other 50% of the time I am called a guy. Interestingly enough, EVERY time I fly, the cabin attendants will always start off calling me madam, miss etc.
It's kind of difficult going out sometimes, because I get a lot of stares even dressed in full male clothes, ski jacket, baseball cap etc. because I don't exactly look all that masculine. I feel like I'm in drag most of the time.
As Alainaluvsu said earlier in this thread, "keep in mind you may reach a point where you're scared to go out as a male, because you'll get more funny looks if you do!". It definitely is true in my case.
I have been doing this for a while (going on a year) at first with just E but now with an AA as well (all low dose). It's very difficult- not for presentation reasons if that's your first concern. I still look, so far as I can tell, all male.
Despite, or maybe rather because of therapy and the E the GID is still bad to the point of it affecting my productivity and ability to concentrate. Considering it is still very much a conscious thing. I don't worry so much about my appearance or my presentation but finding a way to reduce or eliminate the extent to which related thoughts intrude on my consciousness.
My .02 is that if you are wondering if you'll be able to still appear as a male my guess is that unless you are extremely young, cross-sexed or very receptive to HRT then you'll have little problem presenting as male even if you pursue electrolysis so long as your hair is short, are a relatively sloppy or careless dresser and avoid makeup. If you are expecting the GID to quite or go away, well, that's less certain.
I'm on HRT and plan on presenting as male for a a year or two, depending on how you define presenting as male. I define it as I'm not going to tell people I'm trans and undergoing transition. I'm not so sure how well this will work as I already have had the problem of breasts since I was 11 or 12. Most boys have flat chests and I never did. By the time I was 18, I developed very noticeable boobs, not man boobs, boobs. I'm slim and slender so they are very noticeable I just learned to not care afterawhile. I also have a pretty female round butt. No hips.
But I already wear women's jeans and tops it's just that they're quite andro. They fit better then anything i've ever worn so I'm still not sure how this is going to work. But I'm also 30 so the HRT prob won't effect me as much as if i did when I was 20. I didn't pass as male at 20 about 80 percent of the time at first glance. People constantly apologized to me. Oh, I'm so sorry I thought you were his sister, I thought you were...you're so small, blah, blah, blah.
So I mean part of me hopes that it really effects me but I've been on HRT for 21 days and other then my nipples now being erect all the time, they seem more conical and bounce a lot more when I walk. Plus, I have some patches of really soft skin starting to develop on my face, i haven't noticed any changes. It's hard to say anything about emotional changes as I have always been moody and emotional.
But the more days that pass, the more I get sick of presenting as male at all so I'm not so sure how long this will last. There will be instances where I will have to, hence why I am hesitant to go full time too fast, so I'm hoping I will be able to pass as male and I'll just have to correct people. The thing is I really want to start working on my voice and get started on LHR.
EDIT: Oh, I forgot my most major change so far: eating. It's like my stomach has shrunk or something. A month ago I could eat four pop tarts and hug glass of orange or grapefruit juice, and I just ate two pop tarts and a very small salad and two slices of bread and I feel like I'm going to burst. I can only eat about half as much as a month ago.
Kia Ora,
I knew of a Dutch women who not only was on HRT but had also had surgery back in the early 1980s, but still lived and worked as a pseudo 'male' for twenty years...She did say she was her true self ['female' ] at home with her family but 'male' when out and about...She finally went full time around 10 years ago I think...
As for myself, I was 18 months on HRT before being 'forced' to go full time...Societal pressure to conform... In other words I was more and more being addressed as 'female'...I guess in one sense it was a somewhat smooth transition..From androgynous to full blow female...With societal 'consent'...
Metta Zenda :)
I've been on Low then "Normal" dose HRT for about 4 years now and still primarily live and work as a male. I may have an A to small B cup proper clothing choices helped along with a shaper cami take care of that problem. At 6 ft tall, very much balding, deep voiced, and PFG at faking being a guy, I have no problems in guy mode. The change is fairly dramitic.
I was finally able to make it to my TG groups annual TDOR rally. I showed up in guy mode as I was on my way back to NJ to spend the Thanksgiving hliday with my wife. Only the groups moderator reconized me! She had the unfair advantage over the others having seen me several times before in guy mode. This also boosts my confidence doing part time in rural West Virginia and working for a company with 1500 heads, about 300 who see me every day in my building.
It can be done but..... If it weren't for my particular circumstances I sure wouldn't and cannot recomend this as a long term option. You really need to have the right headset to do which I do not yet poses.
I have been on HRT for 8 months and I'm still presenting as a guy. Like an earlier post upthread stated, I want to give myself every possible advantage from HRT (and laser) before I embark upon living full-time as a woman. I am starting to wonder when the changes brought on by HRT will become noticeable to casual observers, though- My body is changing, and fast.
HRT now for a bit more than 20 months, last 6 months have been on full feminizing doses of E. The changes have been fairly slow for me at my age, but starting to become very noticeable. I still work with his name (tel-commuter), but dress as myself in my office, and occasionally go out as him with my wife.
The HRT has helped my GD quite a bit, I don't feel nearly as creepy in guy mode as I used to. I have no issues passing as a guy (small B cup), I am tall at 6'4" that helps. If I wear form fitting clothes however there is no mistaking my figure ;-)
I may give up living as him, it's not how I feel inside, it's like having to live a less than genuine life. Still working on my facial hair removal, and this is gonna take a while longer. I am no hurry, full time as her is probably in my future, it will just happen.
C -
I've been on feminizing HRT for 18 years, had an orchiectomy going on 11 years ago and present full time as a predominantly non-binary androgynous type. I had considered SRS at one time but had a long conversation with myself about why would I really want to go any further, did a list of pros and cons and concluded that this is as good as it gets because I am pretty happy and content where I am right now.
Joanb,
I do not mean to hijack the thread but JoanB, what would lead to you to say you wouldn't recommend it to others? You did a great job of describing your environment and it sounded positive so I am unsure why you have reached the conclusion you have.
I was reading through all our responses and noticed each of us was continuing on some sort of hormonal path. Have there been complications other the "up top" changes and the gid which presumably led to your starting hrt?
men with prostate cancer have to take estrogen usually, so there is that to consider.