So an incident occurred today where an older man who worked at k-mart approached me very disrespectfully.
[optional to read, but this is the full story
I was in the store with my mother & siblings and took my 2 brothers to go look at the bikes. My youngest brother is 2 and he didn't have a shirt on. So I'm just standing around supervising while they look at all the stuff like kids do and I hear someone saying "little boy" (as in trying to get someone's attention). I assume he's talking to someone else and ignore it. Then I keep hearing him say "little boy" and I turn around to see what's going on and turns out he's talking to me. He goes "Little boy, that one (pointing to my 2 yr old brother) needs a shirt on. Where's the mom at?"
Immediately I snap on him. I'm not going to write all I said because it had some colorful vocabulary, but I fed to him that there's a way to approach people and to not assume things. ]
Stuff like that has happened on numerous occasions. This time in particular it pissed me off because he was the most disrespectful of all of the similar situations I have experienced and I was even wearing my work scrubs. I mean, what "little boy" works at a hospital? Did he think I was just playing dress up? Sorry, I'm ranting a bit, but some people seriously make me want to explode.
I mean I'm young, but it's such a frustrating feeling when people disrespect me just because I look 12, or whatever they think. It's like a lot of people lately just think "Oh, he's a kid, so I don't have to be nice or respectful at all." (As you can see respect is a big thing to me).
Also, the fact that I'm almost 8 months on T always gets pushed to the front of my head when stuff like this happens. I get even more frustrated because it's just like . . . I'm still not passing for much older than I was pre-t even though I've had all of these changes and it's just an awful feeling.
With my ranting done, I just wanted to see if anyone else is having, or has had similar issues and how have you dealt with it?
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience man. I can relate though - it looks like we're around the same mark in terms of being on T, and I am the same age as you. I still look quite young, particularly in photos, but once people talk to me they tend to mistake me for a 19/20 year old (strangely.)
A lot of the time, people will judge your age on the way you look if they don't wait for you to speak civilly first. This guy obviously did not give you that opportunity, which, I agree, is very disrespectful, as is the manner in which he spoke to you overall.
I guess I can also relate to the feeling of being on T for a long few months and worrying that the progress you see is not giving you as much credit passing-wise with people you come across. Hang in there bud. I think a lot of guys would have reacted the same way. You did the right thing by putting someone who was being unnecessarily rude in their place.
I guess I don't see it as a lack of respect being called "little boy." Maybe it's about where you are and tone that makes the difference? To me, it wouldn't be something worth flipping out about.
Quote from: Nygeel on June 29, 2012, 11:20:04 PM
I guess I don't see it as a lack of respect being called "little boy." Maybe it's about where you are and tone that makes the difference? To me, it wouldn't be something worth flipping out about.
Yes, his tone was quite rude. And I guess it's like . . how would
you feel if someone called you a little boy? Being an adult and all. *I don't mean to come off as hostile by the way.*
Quote from: Morgan. on June 29, 2012, 11:17:34 PM
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience man. I can relate though - it looks like we're around the same mark in terms of being on T, and I am the same age as you. I still look quite young, particularly in photos, but once people talk to me they tend to mistake me for a 19/20 year old (strangely.)
A lot of the time, people will judge your age on the way you look if they don't wait for you to speak civilly first. This guy obviously did not give you that opportunity, which, I agree, is very disrespectful, as is the manner in which he spoke to you overall.
I guess I can also relate to the feeling of being on T for a long few months and worrying that the progress you see is not giving you as much credit passing-wise with people you come across. Hang in there bud. I think a lot of guys would have reacted the same way. You did the right thing by putting someone who was being unnecessarily rude in their place.
Thank you man
eh... Overreaction... but I guess this festers from other issues. I mean Nygeel is right, I don't see what is disrespectful about being called little boy. I mean you're not an adult; you're a teenager. I'm called young man, child, and little boy all the time and I'm 22, and pass as a 22 year old. People our seniors will always see us as children. I am not meaning to be rude here at all, man, I'm just saying that you didn't really help your case of being an adult by going off on him....
Quote from: conformer on June 29, 2012, 11:23:17 PM
Yes, his tone was quite rude. And I guess it's like . . how would you feel if someone called you a little boy? Being an adult and all. *I don't mean to come off as hostile by the way.*
I'd actually be pretty content. I rarely get seen as male and I'm not very small so getting called a little boy would be fine in my book.
Quote from: Nygeel on June 29, 2012, 11:38:30 PM
I'd actually be pretty content. I rarely get seen as male and I'm not very small so getting called a little boy would be fine in my book.
Oop I guess it wouldn't apply to you at all then haha xD
Rude people are gonna be rude. But blowing up at someone with a bunch of "colorful" words is going to peg you as a snotty teenager or just a jerk ... especially if all the guy did was show some attitude but otherwise not swear at you. So I agree with Hayzer12 - you didn't really help your case there and you aren't an adult, no matter if you have a job or what. Also, everyone has an off day ... maybe you both were having one.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on June 30, 2012, 12:14:56 AM
Also, everyone has an off day ... maybe you both were having one.
Real talk. Well said. :)
Quote from: insideontheoutside on June 30, 2012, 12:14:56 AM
Also, everyone has an off day ... maybe you both were having one.
That's true, I was rather moody today probably because I got my shot late.
But to everyone telling me I'm not an adult, in my culture at 16 you are considered one. Not that it matters though, not too sure why I mentioned it earlier, bottom line was respect. Cultural differences do exist, just putting it out there.
I tried a few times when I was younger,
when I was 15 people thought I was 12, it was really annoying.
I haven't really got any special bad comments just annoying comments who kinda refern to me to how young I looked, and well if I had been 25 I wouldnt mind looking like a 18 year old, I dont mind being mistaked for being 16-17 either most of the times, But to be mistaken for being a kid, just hitting puberty when your grown up is a mess.
luckely it turned better now when I got older and look my age..
I get why you'd be annoyed. I don't see anything wrong with being called "young man" or something respectful like that, but "little boy" is what you'd say to a five year old in a sweet shop. Flying off the handle at him probably wasn't the best of things to do, but I would be pretty annoyed as well if someone referred to me as "little boy".
I hear what you're saying. I can see myself flipping out in the same situation if I wasn't having the best of days.
People think I'm still 15, 16, 17 and I'm 23. It gets me really fired up when I'm older than the person disrespecting me.
I'm starting to be read around my age or sometimes even older than I actually am, so it's weird but I've stopped having this problem for the most part. >_< I hope things get better for you though, Jacob.
As much as I want to be read as male, I don't like being read as a child either. I took my grandmother to Lowe's a couple months ago, and an employee started following me and trying to catch up to me, thinking I was going to steal something by the way I was dressed. (I always wear all black.) Anyway, she caught up to my grandmother, who is very, uh, I don't know the word for it, she doesn't understand what's going on around her. And the employee asks my grandmother "Where is that young boy you're with going?" Of course my grandmother blurts out, "That's NOT a boy! That's my granddaughter!" And for the rest of the time there, she made sure to tell every customer and employee that we passed that I am her granddaughter to be sure that the WHOLE store understood that I have a vagina and not a penis! (Which is a whole other world of aggravation!) But anyway, point being, once I turned around and went back to my grandmother and the employee who thought the goth freak was there to steal everything, the employee looked kind of dumbfounded when she saw I had my car keys in my hand. And I had to explain that I was 20 years older than what she thought I was. Because she thought I was a kid there to steal stuff.
i get read as 14-16 year old range not much younger then i am, i am young too by the way. however if i was shorter i have no doubt that people would think i was 12, im 5'10" which helps a lot with passing. it really sucks that you get called a little boy its really annoying when people believe youre the age you say you are.
Quote from: conformer on June 29, 2012, 11:23:17 PM
Yes, his tone was quite rude. And I guess it's like . . how would you feel if someone called you a little boy? Being an adult and all. *I don't mean to come off as hostile by the way.*
I'd kill to be called "little boy" because that means I would pass.
I can understand where you're coming from, though. However, maybe he was saying "little boy" in a rude tone because he hadn't caught your attention previously
and he was irritated that the two year old didn't have a shirt on? Or maybe he didn't mean for it to come off as rude but did anyway? That happens to lots of people.
Quote from: xander on June 30, 2012, 06:49:30 AM
I hear what you're saying. I can see myself flipping out in the same situation if I wasn't having the best of days.
People think I'm still 15, 16, 17 and I'm 23. It gets me really fired up when I'm older than the person disrespecting me.
This! I'm 22 as well and still look like a high schooler. I'm not on T though. In the right mood, I would probably have reacted the same way you did, conformer. Things like "young man" are okay, but "little boy"? Ehhh...I feel for you! It's definitely a respect thing. Hope it doesn't happen again!!
I'm sorry you were dissed, otoh, you might yet get the last laugh. If you look young, you might still look younger at an old age.
--Jay Jay
How did the guy respond? Just curious.
I've been in similar situations... 2 come to mind. First when a cop stopped me and was being an ass, second when a school counsellor was being a jerk when I was trying to register for courses. By "being a jerk" I mean they were talking in a way that was really condescending and disrespectful, until they learned my actual age and their entire attitude changed in a heartbeat.
It's pretty disturbing actually, to see how people mistreat kids who don't have the authority to defend themselves.
That sucks you had to go through that. I would have gotten mad too. He should have kept to himself. Unless he was going to offer to buy a shirt then he should of kept quiet.
Quote from: Malachite on July 02, 2012, 10:10:54 PM
Unless he was going to offer to buy a shirt then he should of kept quiet.
+1. :D
Quote from: Poptart on July 02, 2012, 09:15:49 PM
How did the guy respond? Just curious.
He held a blank expression for a moment then said "Either you find him a shirt, or leave." and fast walked away calling security on his walkie-talkie. No security came and we were in the store for like another half hour shopping, nor did the manager at the checkout say anything so yep lol.
Quote from: Malachite on July 02, 2012, 10:10:54 PM
Unless he was going to offer to buy a shirt then he should of kept quiet.
Hahahahaha! I completely agree
Sounds like he worked there and was just trying to get customers to follow the policies of their store. Yeah he shouldn't have called you little boy, I would have said "excuse me" if I was trying to get the attention of young men in my store, but your behavior wasn't appropriate either.
Long story short; neither was in the right here.
That isolated incident probably would have been no more than a minor annoyance but I can see it was probably the straw that broke the camels back :P
I feel your pain, I've been asked "are your mum and dad home" by SO many door to door salesmen it's not even funny. When I buy ciggys or alcohol and hand over my ID they always stand there scrutinizing for a good 5 minutes with a B.S. type look on their face.
On the flip side though if chuggers stop me in the street I just say "sorry im under 18" and they let me go without question. :D
Also one time I was back of a very long line at a shop and some old man started ushering me forwards telling everyone I needed to go first otherwise this line would make me late for school. For some reason nobody argued and I sure as hell wasn't going to either
People will call you what you look like. So unfortunately we look much younger than we are, especially early on in our transition. However, it is kind of ridiculous that you would flip out on a guy for calling you young man, considering you probably do look like a young man. Is it annoying that you get thought of as younger then you are? yes. Is it the workers fault that he thought you were a young man? no.
Best thing you can do is get used to it, otherwise you will be getting mad all the time, and it really isn't anybody's fault.
I don't see what the big deal is. At least you were read as male. A lot of us don't even get that. I know I look 14 and I'm 26. It's part of the deal. Especially early on. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.
I would be pissed if someone referred to me as a "little boy". Because I wouldn't call someone a little boy unless I thought they were under 12 years old. The implication is that you're less capable than someone who's older, and f that. I wouldn't have flipped out on him, but I would be just as pissed as you are.
When I first started T, I was often read as a 15-16 year old boy and the way people treat boys that age is ridiculous. They either don't think they're capable of anything, or they think they're doing something wrong. I had so many condescending remarks thrown at me in my first year of T, I can't even put them all here. I never reacted to it because I'm really passive and hate offending others, but honestly I wish I had. It's total BS when someone is treating you like you're inferior to them.
The good news is that it'll pass. Teenage boys have to put up with it, and trans guys have to deal with it when we start T. The key is to remember how it felt and be a better person when dealing with someone who looks/is young.
Quote from: Chamillion on July 05, 2012, 02:13:48 AM
I would be pissed if someone referred to me as a "little boy". Because I wouldn't call someone a little boy unless I thought they were under 12 years old. The implication is that you're less capable than someone who's older, and f that. I wouldn't have flipped out on him, but I would be just as pissed as you are.
When I first started T, I was often read as a 15-16 year old boy and the way people treat boys that age is ridiculous. They either don't think they're capable of anything, or they think they're doing something wrong. I had so many condescending remarks thrown at me in my first year of T, I can't even put them all here. I never reacted to it because I'm really passive and hate offending others, but honestly I wish I had. It's total BS when someone is treating you like you're inferior to them.
The good news is that it'll pass. Teenage boys have to put up with it, and trans guys have to deal with it when we start T.
My feelings exactly. It seems like a lot of guys who posted are fine with being treated like sh*t (similar to as Laura said before) as long as they pass, which is ridiculous imo.
QuoteThe key is to remember how it felt and be a better person when dealing with someone who looks/is young.
Very true thank you for bringing that up . . because of the stuff I have dealt with I try/will try harder to make sure I don't treat anyone else the same.
Quote from: Laura91 on July 05, 2012, 06:44:56 PM
And that is why I said what I said in this thread. (although I was actually speaking in a more general sense but the idea is still the same.)
Oops sorry I honestly meant to refer to you in the previous post :)
*edited*
Hi friends :)
Let's all try to remember to to respect to rules of the site regarding age and language
Thank you
V M
Also, I'm sorry someone was so rude to you conformer, you look like a nice young man that I would guess to be in there late teens or early twenties
Quote from: conformer on July 05, 2012, 06:32:41 PM
My feelings exactly. It seems like a lot of guys who posted are fine with being treated like sh*t (similar to as Laura said before) as long as they pass, which is ridiculous imo.
I just don't see how he treated you poorly. Part of why I think it's a geographical thing. Traditions, customs, etc where you are regarding what's appropriate vs what's not is different from where I am (I'm guessing). Or it could be tone. Those are the only things I could think of that might put better context into the situation. Example: if he shouted "LITTLE BOY!" yea, that'd be rude. If he was far away and started quiet then got louder as you were not paying attention then not rude.
A lot of places have a no shirt, no shoes, no service rule and if that's their rules, that's their rules. Guy's trying to do his job.
I typically don't pass at all (I am pre-hormones and pre-op), but on the rare occasion that I do, I have had some people assume I am much younger than I am. One older lady commented on what clear skin I had for someone my age. I have been lucky enough to not have anyone be so disrespectful to me concerning age... though it may be more a product of my lack of passing in general than anything else. Sorry to hear you have to deal with this problem so much. :(
Quote from: conformer on July 05, 2012, 06:32:41 PM
My feelings exactly. It seems like a lot of guys who posted are fine with being treated like sh*t (similar to as Laura said before) as long as they pass, which is ridiculous imo.
Very true thank you for bringing that up . . because of the stuff I have dealt with I try/will try harder to make sure I don't treat anyone else the same.
Hey man, I don't know if I'm missing something here but I dont see how you were treated like sh*t. Look, if the worker came over to you and told your brother to wear a shirt, because its store policy, you should have a shirt on him OR get out of the store. I don't know any store I could go to where they would let anyone including kids, not wear shirts. I'm just not really getting how you were mistreated.
Maybe he thought you were a young punk who didn't want to listen to the rules, and since you snapped at him, He is probably right in thinking so.
Excepting the fact you probably look younger then your actual age isn't allowing people to treat you poorly. Getting bent out of shape over people not being able to guess your age because you look younger, really seem a little silly. This is not meant to be disrespectful however, i think that if you let people think you're a little younger and ignore it, you will be better off. Pretty sure 99% of trans men go through this.
I think disrespect is very much a matter of perspective, and in this situation, conformer felt as though he had been disrespected and has been offended as a result.
Although I personally think there could have been better ways to handle the situation, I don't think a lot of people would have done differently. It is a frustrating scenario, and I do have to concur with conformer and Laura when they make the point about people being fine with being treated differently as long as they pass. That's my opinion, and I know just passing in general is at much higher priority for a lot of guys (and girls of course).
I think we also don't know whether or not the store conformer has mentioned has a policy requesting that a customer would have a shirt. I know a lot of places do of course, perhaps it is more prominent in the US than it is here.. Here in Australia I see people without shirts in shops all the time.
Who knows. The matter is that conformer felt offended, got it off his chest. :)
Quote from: Mark on July 06, 2012, 09:49:19 PM
Pretty sure 99% of trans men go through this.
I was read as a student the first time I went into the faculty workroom at my new school. The gals working there were acting really strangely, asking me what I was doing there and trying to sort of intercept me and keep me away from the computers. They suddenly changed when they found out I was a professor.
I was 49 at the time.
To be fair, I had a fresh haircut, a wispy young-guy beard, and a few spots that looked like acne (I had recently had some precancerous lesions zapped on my face). In addition, I was carrying a backpack rather than a briefcase (it was orientation week), and I was dressed all in black like an angst-ridden young man. And I'd been playing around with Just for Men, so I had no gray at the temples. I'm usually read in my thirties, but I guess the unusual combination of features make me look even younger.
It still cracks me up, but I'm glad I didn't have to go through that much weirdness when I was first transitioning. It was bizarre and often frustrating to be seen as almost twenty years younger than I was.
I wouldn't like appearing as a child, but I would know people had no way of knowing my real age.
He probably did think you were playing dress up and I don't see how he was he being disrespectful.
He was doing his job. I guess no shirt, no shoes, no service signs are needed after all.
I know what Conformer looks like. I've seen some of his YouTubes. He seems young, yes, but "little boy" is still a pretty rude term to apply even to someone who looks like a high school student. The more respectful and appropriate term is "young man". If I were trying to get his attn in public, I'm sure that's what I would call him.
Quote from: Arch on July 07, 2012, 12:45:00 AM
I was read as a student the first time I went into the faculty workroom at my new school.
I think I finally look old enough now that it won't keep happening, but I've been constantly getting asked if I go to whatever local school. I'm pushing 44.
Usually I don't mind it. I like being perceived as younger. But the times it was frustrating was when I was in a mode of trying to impress upon people that I was competent. One time was when I was running for office in California and I was mid-30s. I'd be in a suit to impress. I would just go into the mode of talking about all my experiences-- having been in the Navy, finished undergrad at GA Tech, my masters at the USC, several years of experience at a major corporation... Then it would eventually sink in. It was a common experience at that time. Sometimes it wasn't practical though, like at a debate with very limited time. I sometimes felt like I should just announce my age but that never seemed to occur to me as a natural thing to do.
Quote from: dalebert on July 07, 2012, 09:39:47 AM
I think I finally look old enough now that it won't keep happening, but I've been constantly getting asked if I go to whatever local school. I'm pushing 44.
This cracks me up. It's also one reason I carry a big briefcase. :P
My buddy, who isn't trans, still looks very young for pushing forty. He is a prof, but he took a fun class at the local community college and wound up with a twenty-something social crowd. Heard lots of "insider" complaints about this or that professor, and so forth. Didn't want them to know he was in his late thirties and a professor, so he was evasive about the age issue.
My point is that it doesn't happen only to us. People are looking younger for their age these days.
Still, I think that the term "little boy" is clueless--not necessarily rude--and should be reserved for boys in the single-digit age category. ::)
I think rudeness to children is very common (and not at all ok). You do look young, but not "little boy".
--Jay Jay
Quote from: Arch on July 07, 2012, 04:03:18 PM
Still, I think that the term "little boy" is clueless--not necessarily rude--and should be reserved for boys in the single-digit age category. ::)
I'm just saying if you really want to be tactful, it's always safe to say "young man", even if you're talking to a five year-old. Know wut ah mean? I can't imagine a five year-old getting offended at being called a young man but I can picture a lot of teens getting offended at being called a little boy.
Quote from: Arch on July 07, 2012, 04:03:18 PM
This cracks me up. It's also one reason I carry a big briefcase. :P
My buddy, who isn't trans, still looks very young for pushing forty. He is a prof, but he took a fun class at the local community college and wound up with a twenty-something social crowd. Heard lots of "insider" complaints about this or that professor, and so forth. Didn't want them to know he was in his late thirties and a professor, so he was evasive about the age issue.
My point is that it doesn't happen only to us. People are looking younger for their age these days.
Still, I think that the term "little boy" is clueless--not necessarily rude--and should be reserved for boys in the single-digit age category. ::)
I get annoyed at this too. I entered college early but sinc I look young and not very masculine(which I don't mind) no one takes my ideas very seriously. I know it's probably going to get worse when I enter the clinical portion of my nursing program :embarrassed: