I'll probably get hit for this but seriously, there's probably millions of transphobes, homophobes, religious nuts and you can't educate/change all their minds. Wouldn't it be easier if the less they knew about us, the better?
You're not likely to pick on someone for being remotely trans* if you have no idea it exists, are you? (Of course by now this would be a bit like stuffing the cat back in the bag...) ???
It would be a mixed bag. Yeah you would keep out of the sights of transphobes, but then what would questioning people do if they knew nothing about trans people?
I personally am stealth, and think more people should be. There are some people in the "community" who give cis people a negative view of transsexuals.
Quote from: Andy8715 on June 30, 2012, 11:09:40 AM
It would be a mixed bag. Yeah you would keep out of the sights of transphobes, but then what would questioning people do if they knew nothing about trans people?
I personally am stealth, and think more people should be. There are some people in the "community" who give cis people a negative view of transsexuals.
Like who?
Quote from: peky on June 30, 2012, 11:41:18 AM
Like who?
Ira Gray immediately springs to mind, and I think that Chaz Bono has said some stuff that not everyone agrees with, but as I don't follow the media I don't really know.
I really don't think it's that easy to "spot" FTMs, particularly after they've been on T for a while, even if you know about them.
I don't like a lot of the people who "represent" us, but meh...takes guts to put yourself out there.
The reason I ask is because in the "gals" side of the house we have the: she-males, female impersonators, and ->-bleeped-<- prostitutes to contend with. Personally, I think they all do us a disservice, of course that it is just my personal opinion.
Recently my oldest son (20YO) went to see a female impersonator show. When he come back he said to me: "they do not look like you," I asked him to elaborate further, and he said: "well, is kind you look like any lady", "they look like weird ladies." What you mean by "weird ladies," I ask him, and he said: "its like they real did not look real iwth all the make-up, and dress, and everything; it is like you never see a lady dress like that at the mall." I laughed so hard, but true, and that is but one of the pictures society has about TG/TS women!
As long as we are portrayed accurately, I don't see a problem with mass-education on the subject.
Quote from: AlecSky on June 30, 2012, 12:36:50 PM
Ira Gray immediately springs to mind, and I think that Chaz Bono has said some stuff that not everyone agrees with, but as I don't follow the media I don't really know.
I don't think Ira Gray's actions represent anyone but himself. There was another instance of this a few years ago with someone named Kael Block. Here's the thing, though: there are rapists and sex offenders in the general male population, so we can't expect anything different in our group. Their actions don't speak to the overall behaviour of trans people, it's just them specifically, since their actions were not related to them being trans.
Agreed on Chaz Bono, though.
Quote from: Poptart on June 30, 2012, 01:49:10 PM
As long as we are portrayed accurately, I don't see a problem with mass-education on the subject.
I agree with this.
I think having people in the community speak out isn't terrible and frankly, when I've come out to a few people recently they instantly thought of Chaz Bono. I don't think that even that is terrible. I mean, it has helped my friends grasp the concept and have something to reference to. Is he my personal spokesman? No, but having people in the community who do speak out helps I think. If no one knew what an FTM was, it would be twice as difficult for families and friends to grasp the concept and accept it. I mean, we can't be stealth to everyone. There are people who did know us before and during transition. I feel we need resources for them.
Some people are against this-- it doesn't matter what they say. There is something, in their narrow little minds-- that is the against the laws of nature. The "God doesn't make mistakes" * crowd sees this as changing what is meant to be by God and sort of playing God. I doubt that someone like Chaz Bono (going to keep the other guy out of this right now) or some other celeb says.
*(except for babies born without brains, hydrocephalus, cerebral palsy, severe autism, ok ok)
--Jay Jay
Quote from: Poptart on June 30, 2012, 01:49:10 PM
I don't think Ira Gray's actions represent anyone but himself. There was another instance of this a few years ago with someone named Kael Block. Here's the thing, though: there are rapists and sex offenders in the general male population, so we can't expect anything different in our group. Their actions don't speak to the overall behaviour of trans people, it's just them specifically, since their actions were not related to them being trans.
Agreed on Chaz Bono, though.
I see what you mean by that, he was just the first person that came to mind when thinking about people who are big in the trans community who would give us a bad impression. It's just that some people think that T makes people aggressive/violent/etc and actions like his aren't something which helps us dispel that myth. When I was coming out to someone right at the start of realising all of this they'd heard that and were seriously scared at the thought of me going on T encase it changed me that way. Everyone being stealth would help in that situation as no one would think anything of it other than him just being another male sex offender.
But I agree with what everyone is saying, it would be nearly impossible for people to realise that they weren't just deluded and that FTM's were around and that it was possible to transition if we were invisible. I know that I wouldn't have realised this if it wasn't for seeing Max on the L Word (not the best example I know).
Quote from: Frank on June 30, 2012, 09:34:33 AM
I'll probably get hit for this but seriously, there's probably millions of transphobes, homophobes, religious nuts and you can't educate/change all their minds. Wouldn't it be easier if the less they knew about us, the better?
You're not likely to pick on someone for being remotely trans* if you have no idea it exists, are you? (Of course by now this would be a bit like stuffing the cat back in the bag...) ???
I dont think so,
for my experience knowlegdes is the most important key in acceptence..
Humans are scared of the unknown, and theyre hate and ignorance usunally comes from there extremly low knowlegde and experience. one of my friends had been a ignorant on the trans topic, but later on she found out how ignorant she had been,
she felt it was horrible but she didnt knew better, and he desided to informate other people about on her school because she knew most of the peoples arnt evil in nature, there just dont know how to handle it probably.
Quote from: Frank on June 30, 2012, 09:34:33 AM
there's probably millions of transphobes, homophobes, religious nuts and you can't educate/change all their minds. Wouldn't it be easier if the less they knew about us, the better?
The thing about that is that if you hide something away because of people who hate, you're giving them exactly what they want and giving them all the power. A good number of people who are transphobic, homophobic, religious zealots, or who hate for numerous other reasons... well, their issues stem from somewhere other than a lack of information. No amount of educating is going to change their minds because their minds are already made up. They can, and sometimes do have all the facts, but just choose to ignore them and instead stick to their tried and tested personal judgements because it makes them feel superior in their own heads. Removing the target of hatred doesn't stop hatred, it just focuses it somewhere else.
I get why people want to blend into society and put the trans aspect of their life very firmly in the background, and I also get why people choose to integrate and incorporate it into their everyday lives. I just think that should be a choice the individual has the right to make for themselves, based more on what being trans means to them personally, rather than have the choice made for them based on fear for their own safety. The world is definitely big enough for both to co-exist.
In my gay group, being invisibly trans has some advantages. One is that the guys just say what they think about trans men. I get the unvarnished insider view, and I know they're not holding back on account of me.
And then the disadvantages. One is...the guys just say what they think about trans men. Like "What's the point?" :eusa_doh:
And unless I want to out myself, I have a hard time fighting against that.
To be honest, I hate the fact of any ftms being in public. I think it makes it worse for my family (they see Chaz Bono for example, and may start to think my story and feelings are like his. Where, so far Ive not come across any ftm in public who seems to border on what Ive felt, which is associating as a normal male, not trans).
As some of you may know, currently in the Big Brother in the UK, theres an Ftm, and in a completely selfish way, Ill admit, I hate that hes on there. Ive watched little bits here and there, but nothing recently, but Im hoping he does not reveal his chest scars.
Sure, its one thing for T to work its magic on us and help us to blend into society, but for guys to show their scars, then Id feel so paranoid about mine! Ive already made up some excuse about the surgery I had, to my friends at uni, but if they begin to recognize what chest scars look like...
Also, if lower surgery starts getting mentioned on tv, Id get even more paranoid as Im at the stage where Im thinking of excuses to make for each stage to my friends because Ill be going through it while still in uni. But I dont want it all to start sounding like excuses, with me coming out with surgical wounds resembling the lower surgery process. I know it makes me sound like a big fat worrier, but I just want to live like a normal guy, without people associating me with this "transness" and I feel that ftms going public, jeopardizes this.
There are some people though who once they meet someone who fits into the category that they have been hating on but didn't know it at first and ave a good experience with that person they may change their minds a bit. One of my new coworkers met me as Travis they thought i was pretty cool but when one of the managers who knew me from pre transitioning used my birth name she got a little weird-ed out at first but ended up being okay with it in the end she says she doesn't necessarily agree with what i am doing to my body but shes not going to stop being my friend because of it. She did bring up religion though but like i said she's cool with me. I also had a coworker who when she first started working there went on this whole anti gay rant to me in the break room but later ended up being great friends with one of our gay coworkers. I think that when people are shown that everyone isn't like what they have been told in general most of them grow to accept things.
Quote from: Make_It_Good on July 01, 2012, 12:37:23 PM
Sure, its one thing for T to work its magic on us and help us to blend into society, but for guys to show their scars, then Id feel so paranoid about mine! Ive already made up some excuse about the surgery I had, to my friends at uni, but if they begin to recognize what chest scars look like...
Also, if lower surgery starts getting mentioned on tv, Id get even more paranoid as Im at the stage where Im thinking of excuses to make for each stage to my friends because Ill be going through it while still in uni. But I dont want it all to start sounding like excuses, with me coming out with surgical wounds resembling the lower surgery process. I know it makes me sound like a big fat worrier, but I just want to live like a normal guy, without people associating me with this "transness" and I feel that ftms going public, jeopardizes this.
This. Being a dude is all I ever been, and without being offensive (or bratty...), I don't really want to get the moobs removed only to discover people already know what it looks like and treat me different. (Er, which is what most people want, to not be treated differently. lol.)
You gets prejugdes for everyonthing, being trans, being gay, being religions, not being religions, being amarican, being russian, being white or black, fat, a teacher, a bartender. its no secret, But prejugdes shouldnt stop you for being you.
--
Quote from: Make_It_Good on July 01, 2012, 12:37:23 PM
"associating as a normal male, not trans" ...
"I just want to live like a normal guy"
I see what you mean because I really want to be seen as a normal guy, an equal to other males, not as less than because people see me as a girl just trying to be a man. At the worst, there are people who accuse me of being a fraud and trying to fool people into thinking that I'm a man. And I really hate that mindset that people have, that you can only be the sex you were born, no ifs, ands, or buts, you are your birth sex no matter what you do. I can't stand that mindset, and I can't stand being thought of as inferior to men. I see myself as a man, and I act and relate in a way that my social circle is mostly straight, macho cis guys, and I fit in to that because that's just my personality and the way I am. My friends are great because they knew me before I knew I had the option to be a guy, but I've always been just one of the guys. I just wish the employers around me could see it that way, but no, they see me as a female and confine me to that gender box.
I'm not sure who it would be better for.
In general I think the more visible we are the more non-trans people can get used to us and deal with us. The less people know, the less people hear, the more close minded they will likely be.
I'm kinda sorry to point this out, But I the threath as others had been seams more about being good or bad exemples for the trans comunety and people.
Whatever people do or do not is there own busniss, whatever there trans or not,
I hope we could stop putting every single transperson who been out as a posterboy to jugde for ever single one of us cause its not.
People might belive we are all the same, those who belive so are just not educated probably, we can in no ways deny those people exist whatever we are out or not.
its just been bugging me to see how everyone worrys more about others life, how they will infect them,
it actually as I see it the biggest reason for transphobic, homophobic and so on in our own comunety. when transexuals puts transvesites down, when maculine homosexuals put femenine homosexuals down and when ftm puts other ftm downs, for the reason of what other might think.
we probably all wanna be threated and seen as regular guys no matter our parts, I just belive some of us tend to accept more we arnt than others. But no matter what position we have then we are all people and we shouldnt stand in the light for being good or bad exemple for all our kinds for every single movement we do.
I'm not really open, but at the same time, I don't try to hide it.
I'll admit, I'm paranoid about people knowing, and really touchy as to who I tell. But I've found there's situations where you really just can't avoid it without getting yourself into trouble.
I've gotten my name changed, changed my gender with social security, and scratched out the gender marker on my ID (can't have it changed without bottom surgery). But throughout that process I had to be out to those involved. And even now I still have to be out to medical professionals and have to explain to companies when I'm changing my information why I'm changing my gender too. And I've had to explain I was trans when I've had background checks run for jobs. And then there are those friends who knew me before and still accidentally use incorrect pronouns or just plain don't have the respect to use correct pronouns...
No matter what you do, you can't be completely stealth unless you get your surgery and leave where you grew up...
I plan to do just that, but I think, during transition, there's no way to be completely stealth.
So in my own way, I advocate. Online, in open-minded groups, through petitions and emails to legislators. There's more than one way to advocate, I don't think any way is wrong. But I, living in one of the most anti-LGBT states in the country, am far too afraid of the people around me to be completely open about being trans. And if at all possible, I don't want to be thought of or treated any differently than my cisgender friends.
Quote from: Natkat on July 02, 2012, 07:54:58 AM
I'm kinda sorry to point this out, But I the threath as others had been seams more about being good or bad exemples for the trans comunety and people.
Whatever people do or do not is there own busniss, whatever there trans or not,
I hope we could stop putting every single transperson who been out as a posterboy to jugde for ever single one of us cause its not.
People might belive we are all the same, those who belive so are just not educated probably, we can in no ways deny those people exist whatever we are out or not.
its just been bugging me to see how everyone worrys more about others life, how they will infect them,
it actually as I see it the biggest reason for transphobic, homophobic and so on in our own comunety. when transexuals puts transvesites down, when maculine homosexuals put femenine homosexuals down and when ftm puts other ftm downs, for the reason of what other might think.
we probably all wanna be threated and seen as regular guys no matter our parts, I just belive some of us tend to accept more we arnt than others. But no matter what position we have then we are all people and we shouldnt stand in the light for being good or bad exemple for all our kinds for every single movement we do.
+1. I agree with NatKat.
Personally, I am going to live my life. I won't make up excuses for these scars or those, and I won't lie. It's best for all of society to know about others and to have as many involved as possible. There is nothing to be gained by hiding away one group from the rest of the world. Its like back in the fifties when people would hide away their disabled relatives - nothing was gained. Having the disabled integrated into society has been better for everyone. We will never be "normal guys" because we have past experiences that biological men do not, but hiding away isn't going to help us or the community. Unless the trans community is more out there, people will continue to keep some weird idea of what we are in their heads. People will either like and support you, or they won't. That's all there is to it. But by educating people, maybe there will be more of the former and less of the latter. I chose to focus on my own life and not worry about what someone may think about me.
We can't hold out for the "perfect posterchild" (which will never exist) or for universal popularity. If we want everything, we will end up with nothing.
I wanna point out something ells I hope I havent mention it before.. (I dont remember well :P)
If transpeople are invisible then it can also be hard to et threatment.
From where I live the transfolks had been very invisible the last few years, and its first now we start to get some kind of "trans revelution" with focus on transgenders.
This had given alot of problem, ex for myself I couldnt get the right help I needed, I talked with alot of people openly about that I was trans but I really wanted to have homones and surgery and name change, But it was very few people who could help me cause nobody really knew about the issue, and I wasted alot of time by seaching around untill I found other trans people who could guide me.
also for the laws its the same, since being trans has been so invisibble of a topic it also means most people dont know what kind of threatment or laws we are ruled underneath. I wont say people here are transphobic, but we are still on the list of a pretty bad country to be transgender in, why? because we are ruled under some very ->-bleeped-<-ty laws who is almost imposible to change, why? because Almost nobody knows they exist.
---
If trans people are invisible, No matter what country or state, they run the risk of facing the same kinds of problems as I decribed above.
Natkat makes a good point about if people don't know they exist its harder for those who are looking into it or even for laws to be put into place or fixed. I personally though its really hard for me sometimes keep a open door policy at my house so my friends or people I know can stay the night or whatever if they ever need a place to crash for whatever reason and i tend to be pretty open if they ask me anything. I answer any questions that get of me though I dont go out of my way to advertise me being trans. One of those people who came over and ended asking me a lot of questions i found out later was mtf but they didn't realize till after they talked to me that it was possible to really transition. Wow i am too tired to type this but my point is that if everyone is so closed off and invisible some of the people who really could benefit from gaining some knowledge wont be able to.
Quote from: Frank on June 30, 2012, 09:34:33 AM
I'll probably get hit for this but seriously, there's probably millions of transphobes, homophobes, religious nuts and you can't educate/change all their minds. Wouldn't it be easier if the less they knew about us, the better?
You're not likely to pick on someone for being remotely trans* if you have no idea it exists, are you? (Of course by now this would be a bit like stuffing the cat back in the bag...) ???
Yes, in the world currently, it would be easier if no one knew what a trans man was and we could all blend in seamlessly.
But you know what would be even better? A world where we didn't have to hide, because trans people were just accepted as regular people trying to live their lives in the way that makes them happiest. This is the ultimate goal, and it can only be achieved by not being invisible. I am not 100% out as I don't tell people at work who don't need to know, but I quite enjoy coming out to people. I meet them as a normal dude, and after getting to know them I tell them about me, and all I've had is positive reactions. I've had people tell me that I've changed their lives. Because they previously had negative judgments about trans people, but after meeting me realize we're just average people. And that is what needs to happen. We need to change the minds of the uninformed. By coming out, we show people that we're really not that strange, and this promotes knowledge and acceptance. The more people who understand us, the easier it is for future trans people to come out and become who they've always been. So while it would be easier for me if no one knew that trans people existed, it wouldn't be easier for future trans people if we all just hid away. The goal is not to transition and then blend in, the goal is to increase acceptance so eventually we can all be who we are and not have to worry about hiding it.
Quote from: Chamillion on July 05, 2012, 03:16:49 AM
But you know what would be even better? A world where we didn't have to hide, because trans people were just accepted as regular people trying to live their lives in the way that makes them happiest. This is the ultimate goal, and it can only be achieved by not being invisible.
theres are few places and cultures where those had happent in some way or another.
some indians was claim to be the first queer people, since sex, gender and sexualety was fluent.
also this one is pretty interesting
Five Genders? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VmLJ3niVo#)