Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Why is there so much hate and anger toward people who push society's gender limits?

Openly expressed anger is common, and violence and even murder exists. Most of this seems directed toward males who dare to do something feminine (though there are exceptions, Brandon Teena, e.g.)

I think a big reason has nothing to do with the person they're angry or hateful towards. I think that some people's lives just plain suck and they need a focus to project all that self-hatred and pent up anger on. More to do with wanting an easy target. And folks who are seen as already stigmatised or persecuted present one of the easiest. It bypasses conscience because it's easier to justify - usually using one or more of the reasons above.

Same reason people have fear, ignorance.

I'd say it is because lots of gender benders are loud and annoying.

I'm gonna say religion and the associated socially conservative norms.

Since any measure of deviance, in the sense of deviating from the cisnormative and heteronormative model, is an abomination to most true believers in the conservative faiths. This is one of the main reasons I'm a heathen. :3

I chose the religion one.  At least in the Christian religion the Bible has been used inappropriately to justify so much hate and what isn't in the Bible some people claim to speak on God's behalf as if they just got through Skyping with Him.

Tis how they were taught.

Why, do you think that everyone who is like that is just born that way, or has some sort of insecurity? Look at our past. It takes generations for things to be accepted in social norm. Look at criminals. Usually they're raised in ->-bleeped-<-holes. You think that if you were born in the 50's you'd have the same morals and beliefs as you do now? Influence is so complex, maybe you were taught that it was wrong because of the obviously malicious intent. Because of how others were taught, you were taught differently.

Quote from: Laura91 on July 01, 2012, 12:22:13 AM
"well, did you ever think for yourself?"

Seems like they do to me. Just as you and I are stubborn about our beliefs, so are they.

Not that I'm trying to justify any of it or anything.

Quote from: Laura91 on July 01, 2012, 12:58:03 AM
Why?

Because I think for myself.

As do they.

I think people are just stuck in their ways. Previous generations, mostly, as well as current generations. They think it's wrong not just for religious reasons, but because they think that males should be men and females should be women. Anything else, they think, goes against social norms and are therefore wrong. Perhaps they feel a need to preserve the staus quo- that men should be tough and rough, that women should be gentle and delicate.
For instance, from Emily Post:"The attributes of a great lady may still be found in the rule of the four S's: Sincerity, Simplicity, Sympathy, and Serenity."
Manners are considered important in a "civilised" society, and those who do not go along with them are seen as undignified and rude. The same goes for genderbending: by refusing to conform to the behaviors of your perceived gender- such as a woman who burps, drinks beer, works with her hands, and never wears skirts- may be seen as rude and undignified. But across time and cultures, manners and gender roles chnge, which is why women are "allowed" to be much more assertive now than they used to, and men who prefer to stay at home to raise the kids may be seen as desirable.

The question is flawed, It's not that their is so much hate towards something, it's that hate exist and hate naturally goes towards people they fundamentally cannot understand. The difference between now and a few hundred years ago is that it's no longer socially okay to hate a lot more things. So what hate that is "allowed" socially is becoming more apparent through the lack of hate elsewhere.

A good example of when something becomes "allowed" is post 9/11 when anyone who was honestly slightly Arab could have been attacked (a lot of people were), This shows that fundamentally the people that hate aren't ever going to change becasue hate is as old as time itself. Whenever they see a chance to oppress people to make their own superiority evident they shall take it no matter what the case.

There is simply no logic that they have, They have excuses to hate. Time doesn't really change any of it. If it were allowed they'd still be beating up and running black people out of their shops, ect.

What makes someone hate others? It's mostly about being a sheep that goes along with the primal sense of group mentalities (Which ultimately is the "Us VS. Them" track of thinking), How you are raised will effect it though (be it towards or away, and even then it's not a 100% obvious case how things effect people).

Meh, That's just my opinion though x3

Quote from: SourCandy on July 01, 2012, 09:59:13 AM
It's not that their is so much hate towards something, it's that hate exist and hate naturally goes towards people they fundamentally cannot understand. The difference between now and a few hundred years ago is that it's no longer socially okay to hate a lot more things.

I think you have something there. When I was a kid, you could hate black folks, jews, russians, you name it. Now that kind of hate is frowned upon. Gays and trans folks though, still open season in many places.

do ""we"" hate??? the haters?
What does that make us?   :embarrassed:

Can we just love everyone and see their views and not judge them and only judge ourselves because it is us who need to heed the words we try to tell others.  I believe we can only change us and if what we do or say speaks to another in a positive way, then that is from above working with us as the vehicles for change. We get no credit for that!

Quote from: Amazon D on July 01, 2012, 10:52:37 AM
do ""we"" hate??? the haters?
What does that make us?   :embarrassed:

Can we just love everyone and see their views and not judge them and only judge ourselves because it is us who need to heed the words we try to tell others.  I believe we can only change us and if what we do or say speaks to another in a positive way, then that is from above working with us as the vehicles for change. We get no credit for that!

Hug a hater!

Quote from: Jaime on July 01, 2012, 11:20:35 AM
Hug a hater!

Just make don't do it while he's busy punching out a gay guy because you might get an elbow in the face. Wait 'til he's done.

Quote from: agfrommd on July 01, 2012, 11:23:51 AM
Just make don't do it while he's busy punching out a gay guy because you might get an elbow in the face. Wait 'til he's done.

Jump up high on their back and surprise hug 'em from behind.

Quote from: Laura91 on July 01, 2012, 11:40:11 AM
I can't wrap my head around this concept. So, if some scumbag beats the hell out of someone or even to the point of death,  what are you supposed to say? "well, gosh golly gee, this is just who they are: a violent scumbag and they need a hug."

I don't think so. That person deserves a good ass beating. Being passive does you no favors at all. Yeah, it would be nice if everyone respected one another and minded their own business, but we do not live in such a world nor we will ever live in that world.

Plus, there are plenty of people who have zero desire to change so you may as well be talking to a brick wall. (this statement could be applied to myself.) I will never, ever, ever believe in "turning the other cheek" "being passive", etc. If a situation comes up where you need to take action to defend yourself or possibly someone else then that is what needs to be done.

Being passive could land you six feet under and there is no way I would let that happen if I can help it.

Excuse me violence is different than simply hating.

ok back to the threads topic

Quote from: Amazon D on July 01, 2012, 12:53:54 PM
Excuse me violence is different than simply hating.

ok back to the threads topic

Actually, what I had in mind when I posted the thread topic (though, Amazon, your comments and point of view are welcome, appreciated and interesting) was the kind of anger that leads to violence. I find it easier to understand the fear-based hate from people who don't understand trans and gay people than I can the kind of white hot anger that leads them to harass, assault, and murder.

Quote from: Laura91 on July 01, 2012, 01:05:07 PM
It is not violence for its own sake. It is self defense.

nothing wrong with self defense whoever you are.

Quote from: agfrommd on July 01, 2012, 01:26:04 PM
Actually, what I had in mind when I posted the thread topic (though, Amazon, your comments and point of view are welcome, appreciated and interesting) was the kind of anger that leads to violence. I find it easier to understand the fear-based hate from people who don't understand trans and gay people than I can the kind of white hot anger that leads them to harass, assault, and murder.

yes it seems you have answered your question. ignorance causing hate is most likely just that while people who want to hurt us don't seem to have hate as much as a mental problem which seems to make them prone to violence.

It's very passe to punch gay people nowadays.
Much more fashionable to leer at families of tourists.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 01, 2012, 04:34:53 PM
It's very passe to punch gay people nowadays.
Much more fashionable to leer at families of tourists.

I much prefer giving counterfeit coins to buskers.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 01, 2012, 04:34:53 PM
It's very passe to punch gay people nowadays.
Much more fashionable to leer at families of tourists.

American tourists.
Really, it could be any of the reasons above.
An interesting (and annoying) thing I noticed is that, now that "gender bending" is common and socially acceptable for females, femininity has become something to sneer at in females as well. I think maybe there's this crazy idea floating around that femininity is something to be ashamed of.

Quote from: Edge on July 03, 2012, 10:31:54 AM
American tourists.
Really, it could be any of the reasons above.
An interesting (and annoying) thing I noticed is that, now that "gender bending" is common and socially acceptable for females, femininity has become something to sneer at in females as well. I think maybe there's this crazy idea floating around that femininity is something to be ashamed of.

You noticed it too! It's alright  for girls to be boyish, but guys (even in the gay community-yes you read right) get such a hassle for it. >:(

Yeah I noticed it. I've been sneered at for being "girly" and I was a girl. It's not nearly as violent as what some male bodied people experience, but it does make it clear what some people think of femininity.

I'm rather proud of my feminine moments.

Quote from: Edge on July 03, 2012, 11:02:30 AM
Yeah I noticed it. I've been sneered at for being "girly" and I was a girl. It's not nearly as violent as what some male bodied people experience, but it does make it clear what some people think of femininity.

Movies like "Snow White and Huntsman" and "Brave" are out now, glorifying macho females. Wonder if they'd ever have the guts to make a female hero who uses traditionally feminine qualities (empathy, nurture, understanding, conflict resolution, etc.) to avert a crisis?

Quote from: agfrommd on July 03, 2012, 12:10:48 PM
Movies like "Snow White and Huntsman" and "Brave" are out now, glorifying macho females. Wonder if they'd ever have the guts to make a female hero who uses traditionally feminine qualities (empathy, nurture, understanding, conflict resolution, etc.) to avert a crisis?

I hope so since empathy, understanding, and conflict resolution is a very important tool to, well, resolve conflicts. I think characters of any gender should use it though since it is much more effective in many real life conflicts than violence. Then again, it's probably less interesting from an entertainment perspective. That and villains, zombies, whatever the big bad is tend not to respond too well to empathy, understanding, and conflict resolution.

Once I was to my doctor talking about rejection and discrimination he said:
"i'll tell you why its so its because people are scared of whats diffrent"

at first I didnt knew what he ment, But I soon realised he was right.

when people see something unknown they usunally gets scared.
they can react with interest, but they are as likely to react badly. I seen that in pretty many situations,
as you go beyong the "traditional" you will be seen threatned.

Quote from: agfrommd on June 30, 2012, 11:48:23 AM
Why is there so much hate and anger toward people who push society's gender limits?

Openly expressed anger is common, and violence and even murder exists. Most of this seems directed toward males who dare to do something feminine (though there are exceptions, Brandon Teena, e.g.)

I honestly think that's a dangerous idea that's been perpetuated for way too long. I don't actually think that its as overwhelmingly toward male-assigned at birth people as people claim it is. I think part of it is that female-assigned people already have high rates of sexual assault/physical assault statistics already, and part of being female-assigned at birth is being socially programmed into believing that its "ok" or "normal" to receive all sorts of disgusting treatment.

I would say that the people who get the brunt of it are low income trans people of colour. To me its a problem that many people in society see that it's fit to kill or severely beat people who they don't think anyone in society cares about. Usually sex workers who, unfortunately, are seen as "disposable." And since law enforcement already treat sex workers like ->-bleeped-<- anyway, it takes a while for anyone to do much about the harassment they get. Being a trans sex worker makes it that much worse, and makes people feel like they have a license to take out their transphobia/gender anxiety on sex workers. Because, hey, society doesn't care ::) You really can't compare the experience of middle or upper class transwomen to that of transwomen who are sex workers or low income...and the same with transmen who work as sex workers.

One example of the media not paying attention, here in the GTA, for years lesbians have been targeted victims of rape in the York region. Masculine lesbians attacked by male patrons while entering women's bathrooms because these guys think they're "too masculine." In many of these cases bouncers witness the beating, yet somehow these guys rarely get caught. Yet this rarely gets any press despite that it happens fairly regularly and is clearly both homophobia and gender policing. Yet every time a gay male (usually feminine presenting) gets beaten up its all over the papers. I think part of it here is social bias, and perhaps people assigned female at birth being so frequently victimised that its barely as "abnormal" anymore as when a gay man gets beaten or otherwise assaulted.

As far as transmen, I know plenty of transmen who have been victims of rape/sexual assault even after coming out as trans. A lot of them are reluctant to report it or to talk about it and there are no official statistics on it. I think its more an issue of victim silence than that its not happening. The other thing to is, because transmen are less visible in society (as far as if being on T, not visible as transmen, when not on T many are identified as "lesbians" or simply not trans by law enforcement or others in society...only very recently that transmen are being recognised by society as even existing and not being lesbians), that also makes it hard to have any real statistic on the rate of assault and harassment against transmen.

Now that's starting to change, like with the recent report about Jayce McClerkin actually being recognised as a transman by the media (and another example of a trans person being charged for defending themselves against gender-based harassment). That's rarely the case, usually we're shoved into the "lesbian" box and in those cases the media rarely reports on them.

As far as why people like to bash people because their trans or gender-bending...homophobia, transphobia and sexism are still rampant in all societies. Sexism and misogyny means that there are still standards of "what it means to be a man" or "what it means to be a woman." Society peddles it as "natural" and anything that varies as "unnatural," which creates generations of people who believe that not being cissexed or straight-identified is "unnatural," but also threatening to people's sense of themselves as men and women. So work on getting rid of misogyny, homophobia and transphobia would help a mega->-bleeped-<-ton.