I just have some things to say about trans men and dating/being with a lesbian. Most people say one of two things: 1) she must view you as a girl or 2) she is disrespecting you by identifying solely as a lesbian, and if she's dating you and finds you attractive then she's not a lesbian. Both of those statements or anything similar CAN be true but CAN ALSO be complete and utter bulls--t! My girlfriend and fiancée is a lesbian. She has been for years. I know for a fact that she has never once viewed me as female nor does she not find me attractive. She very much views me as male, knows I'm a man (better than I do sometimes) and finds me attractive. She is still lesbian. She still finds women sexually attractive and is still mostly attracted in nearly all ways to women. Thing is, she fell deeply in love with me. Whether I'm a man, woman, chicken or a bird, she is in love with me. She struggles with the fact that she will be with a man for the rest of her life, not because she doesn't love me, not because she doesn't find me attractive, but because she is a lesbian. She sees guys as bros. Many times she even sees me as a bro, but knows that she loves me more than anything in a much different way than that. She doesn't want it to be a wife and husband/bro relationship and we are going to work through it.
Quote from: Brayden on July 18, 2012, 02:47:17 PM
My girlfriend and fiancée is a lesbian. She has been for years. I know for a fact that she has never once viewed me as female nor does she not find me attractive. She very much views me as male, knows I'm a man (better than I do sometimes) and finds me attractive.
If she finds you attractive as a guy and sees you fully as such, she is not truly a lesbian, at least by the definition of that identity.
She may be bisexual or pansexual, again by the definition of those identities, but not a lesbian.
Your description of your girlfriend loving you, as a person, regardless of what you are would make me believe that she would fall under the pansexual category though.
Ok sure I'll give that a woman can date a man and still ID herself as a lesbian, but she is not solely a lesbian otherwise she would not have fell in love with a man. I personally would never date someone who ID's as a lesbian especially if she is going to continue to call herself one while dating me, a man.
Well.. words are words..
im bisexual, but I do not mind if people call me gay or straight,
Neither do I mind call myself gay, (I do mind calling myself straight, because.. I seem alittle too queer for that LOL)
I must admit I never could be in a relationship with a lesbian, or straight guy,
for me they should at least be bisexual, or admit to be alittle bi-curious. I wouldnt trust them otherwise, even if they said they loved me, as a guy I would still be forever suspecious which wouldnt leave to anything good.
also I feel strange by them to use the word. I wouldnt say I was in a gay relationship either, so for me it would annoy me alot like a deal breaker.
--
I do know ftms who are in relationship with lesbians. One of them had to lose all her friends of the lesbian comunety to be with a ftm, which also is very sad.
Personally I deep down belive we got a very wide sexual orientation, as having exeptions of a little or bigger point. I do often feel I get alot of exeptions of people I arnt attracted to. I dont see why lesbians shouldnt have those exeptions. as one of my girl friends say. "I am hetrosexual, exept for my girlfriend"
generally its not important how our relationships work out, as long they work, if your both feel its fine for her to be lesbian, then thats what matters.
People say I should be pansexual, because of my sexual orentation, but I honestly dont fell confortable with the decribtions as something who suit me. so I am bi
These sorts of things are always better viewed as a spectrum rather than just 2-sided.
For example I'm in pretty much the same situation, I have only ever been physically attracted to females in the past, and that seems unlikely to change.. but currently I have a boyfriend because our emotional connection surpassed the need for physical attraction in the beginning. The main thing is to be open minded and soon the eyes will agree with the heart.
Unfortunately most people don't understand that these kind of situations can even happen, so when someone asks me if I'm gay/straight I just say "don't know, don't care"
-Chris-
My co-host, who still insists on self-labeling as gay, is currently dating a woman. We've been using the term homoflexible. We were just talking about his dilemma on the last show. I admit it's confusing to me but I think people's identities are up to them and should be respected.
But I'll be honest. This video baffled me to no end. This guy passes EXTREMELY well and is very good-looking as a guy. I couldn't understand why he would consider lesbians as a dating option. What would they find attractive about him? In your case, you were dating before transition. That seems a little different to me. It's not like you're going out and seeking lesbians to date like this guy.
dating gay or straight? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA1v8Ar4Jic#)
Not being disrespectful, but I'm honestly just curious. Why does it seem like so many lesbians who date FTMs are so hell-bent on clinging to the "lesbian" label? I guess because labels seem so shallow and unimportant to me, it's hard to understand.
I think the majority (not all!) of lesbians who date FTMs only date us because they think we are "safe" men. I feel like they basically view us as REALLY butch women.
Quote from: Andy8715 on July 18, 2012, 08:35:17 PM
I think the majority (not all!) of lesbians who date FTMs only date us because they think we are "safe" men. I feel like they basically view us as REALLY butch women.
You know, I kind of think this too.
Agree with earlier posts.. it's cool if that's how she wants to identify, but sexuality isnt something merely identifiable,(meaning, sexuality doesn't just come with categories that we DECIDE to be put into, because we like the names) it's biological. Just as you are biologically a male(just not conventionally, or cisgendered in the fact that your genitalia doesnt match who you are). If she is attracted to you - as a male - then she cannot fully be a lesbian, as that pertains to being attracted to ONLY females. I would suggest that she's more pansexual, with a strong preference for women... or atleast, lesbian with exception..
I haven't had any sleep, so that probably makes no sense... but we'll roll with it and pretend that I made that clear enough for everyone to grasp.
I say be who you are, let her be who she is, and if you both love one another then it doesn't matter how either identifies. Youre who she's gonna be with, and vice versa. Screw what society or anyone else has to say.
When transistioning first came up and we discussed our fears, her major fear was not knowing who she was anymore. She's identified as a lesbian since she was 14 (she's 22 now) and now that will change and her and I will be viewed as a straight couple. Also, she was worried about not being openly viewed as part of the community. I told her if she likes the label so much she could keep it but that it didn't make sense to me because she has admitted to being more pansexual before I even thought about transistion. She just thinks and worries too much.
In my opinion, labels are labels. Everything is fluid and if you spend too much time trying to put it in perfect lines you will waste a lot of energy for an impossible task.
Personally, I believe in the scale idea and labels are too restricting.
As for why someone would cling to the label, I have heard that bisexuals used to be shunned. Maybe it's left over from that?
I've been skulking around here for almost a year now and never bothered to post anything, but this is something that's always bothered me and I suppose I'm gonna come out of hiding. Or something.
Is it just me or do a lot of the people (not all) who run around talking about how bad labeling is, how we shouldn't judge people and what not, some of the first to label their sexuality? It's like a new fad as well... in some communities, 'cliques', and age groups it's cool to be gay. OBVIOUSLY I'm being extremely black and white right now but I'm fairly sure this can't just be in my area. It's bad to label and call people names but if you're gay, bi, pan, asexual, or whatever it's cool to tell everyone who will listen. Again, I'm being really black and white here and mean no offense.
I agree with a lot of the other posts. I don't care how people identify, if she sees herself as a lesbian that's great. In fact, I'm dating a 'heterosexual' guy and TONS of people here would be against that. He likes women and me for some really strange reason! Plus, he met me after I came out. He didn't meet a tomboy or a girl who decided to be a guy. He met a childish guy who he got to know... :P He is perfectly fine with people seeing him as gay, but he really isn't. Many people might think he's bi-curious but if the subject ever came up, he and I would probably say he's straight because he doesn't actively seek out men, women, and other identifying people. He only tries to date women.
But what I'm trying to say (which is coming out horribly cause I'm not fully awake, sorry!) I think the underlining uhh... 'thing' I guess, for lack of a better word, is that a lot of lesbians see it as more than their sexuality. I suppose it's more of a way of life for them, they want to be in the community. Which she'll lose if she no longer identifies as one. Though maybe not because a lot of transmen still identify as a lesbian (which I personally hate... but I'm gonna shut up on that). Anyone following? The OP could be saying the two of them are like me and my boyfriend in that she likes women and him, leave it at that because it's simple! No need to argue on that, in fact, I don't see why people care so much to push the new 'appropriate' label. But from what I've seen it really has nothing to do with that for most women and is more about the community. I only say this because of where I grew up there is a really strong lesbian/feminist/EXTREME feminist community that I tried very much to avoid since I never once identified as one. Though my mother tried her best to make me one but that's a whole other story!
Some people may cling to the lesbian label because they're afraid of losing their community. Especially if they've identified as such for a long time. I think claiming a new identity can be tough for some. Plus, maybe they feel like they can't function without their label. I personally would be upset if my partner identified strictly as a lesbian since she's dating a man, "lesbian" wouldn't entirely be true. Or, she sees me as female which is a bigger insult.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on July 19, 2012, 12:43:08 AM
You know, I kind of think this too.
Uh, hopefully not the last part of it.
I don't fully understand what you're trying to accomplish here.
:-\
There's a lot of flexibility in sexuality. There are some lesbians who might one day fall for a man (cis or trans). It just means they have some flexibility in their sexuality. When I first sorta came out I had a relationship with somebody who at the time IDed as a lesbian. Part of it was the sense of community she had, part of it was that she had never loved a man before. So, we started dating. I'm still the only man she's ever loved and might actually be the only person she's ever really loved three years later. Many "rules" have their exceptions. You're not supposed to go through a red light but if there's a fire truck behind you with its lights flashing and there's nowhere to move left or right, you go through the light.
I did notice (however) that the last time I saw her was in January. She was no longer interested in me at all in a physical way because my appearance had changed from hormones. My being hairy was a complete and total turn off but as it was the result of hormones, and something I kinda needed it felt like a total bummer. I guess it was maybe that she didn't think I would go on T as I wasn't on it for a long time, or maybe actually confronting the fact that I had wanted these changes that she didn't was what happened.
Currently...I try to steer clear of lesbian identified people in terms of dating. It might limit my potential dating pool by...a lot but I've dealt with an excessive amount of badness from dating lesbians in the past and I'd rather try to minimize that.
If you want to date somebody that identifies as a lesbian and you're both happy, then awesome. If you say "hey, I'm not going to date lesbians because I would feel uncomfortable" then good for you. What works for one person might not work for another.
To be honest, I don't get it. I'll probably never get it. But if you are happy, she is happy, who the hell cares?
Quote from: four_est on July 19, 2012, 08:08:14 AM
Is it just me or do a lot of the people (not all) who run around talking about how bad labeling is, how we shouldn't judge people and what not, some of the first to label their sexuality? It's like a new fad as well... in some communities, 'cliques', and age groups it's cool to be gay.
I haven't noticed that exactly, but I have noticed in my hometown that it was common for young women to claim they were bi. Some are, but others showed no actual interest in women.
Quote from: JasonRX on July 19, 2012, 10:33:32 AM
Uh, hopefully not the last part of it.
I don't fully understand what you're trying to accomplish here.
:-\
I don't understand why you quoted my response to his post...
ETA
I read, and re-read, and I've come to the conclusion that you're assuming I think FTM guys are butch women? If that's right, all I gotta say is you guys got a hairpin trigger for jumping to conclusions. What I THINK is exactly what Andy already stated: I think the majority (not all!) of lesbians who date FTMs only date us because they think we are "safe" men. I feel like they basically view us as REALLY butch women.
Don't know how thinking the exact same thing could be misinterpreted.
I think people can't help who they fall in love with even if its against what they normally find attractive I will admit that back in high school I tried to date men even though I wasn't really attracted to them and ended up liking one of them it was the only time I probably ever would actually like a man that way. I like women always have always will I will not put myself into a label but that's just me. The girl I am currently seeing identifies as lesbian so i asked her why would she like me she knows i am one day going to have a penis and I am a guy if not physically but mentally already. She knows this and she likes me anyways basically she said yes she only likes women but she also believes in love and she feels that if she truly loves me that she wont care what body parts I have because i am still me. Like i said you can't help who you fall for does that make it any less real that they usually only like one or the other but for some reason or another fell for someone who happens to be the wrong gender?
I'm in a bit of a different/weird situation where my girlfriend ID's pretty much as a lesbian (ah I hate that word) but doesn't know about me being trans. It's probably a bit of a mistake on my part, but I'm not in a position where attempting to transition would be easy or particularly fruitful and I'm fortunate that by having her around I can keep a handle on dysphoria. I don't really see much problem with my situation as the person she knows is exactly the same as the person that she would know if I was actively transitioning except for the physical aspects and the name she refers to me with. I suppose it's not perfect, but I couldn't make it without her.
She recognises that one day she might fall in love with a bloke and if that happens then it happens but still ID's as gay and is sort of involved in the gay community. I think that for a lot of people it's just easier to ID as one thing rather than try and explain that you're attracted to one gender 99.9% of the time but for the other 0.1% you're not. Personally, I was with a CAMAB person (who at the time identified as male) for a while although I've never found men or them attractive at all but still said that I was into women. That one person didn't change that, I was still attracted to women, I just happened to be with someone who at the time identified as a guy.
I don't know if this is a good time to mention it but I have long identified as a lesbian in a gay man's body.
Quote from: dalebert on July 20, 2012, 09:32:30 AM
I don't know if this is a good time to mention it but I have long identified as a lesbian in a gay man's body.
Really not the right thing to say on a trans website.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 20, 2012, 01:03:48 PM
Really not the right thing to say on a trans website.
Really, for once, I totally agree with you.
I think his comment was intended to be tongue in cheek, lol.
Quote from: Papa Taco on July 20, 2012, 01:13:22 PM
I think his comment was intended to be tongue in cheek, lol.
Yes, of course. Still, I'm sorry. I don't fully understand why it's upsetting but If I offended two different people, then there's probably something to that. I certainly didn't mean to.
Dalebert, I think an emoticon would have helped. ::) :P :D ;D
I didn't have a problem with the post, maybe because I couldn't tell whether it was tongue in cheek. I've read or heard about some unorthodox ways to identify. Sometimes it's hard to tell what's a joke and what isn't!
Quote from: dalebert on July 20, 2012, 01:16:49 PM
Yes, of course. Still, I'm sorry. I don't fully understand why it's upsetting but If I offended two different people, then there's probably something to that. I certainly didn't mean to.
It's because there are people on here who are almost literally lesbian women trapped in gay men's bodies.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 20, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
It's because there are people on here who are almost literally lesbian women trapped in gay men's bodies.
Oh, that's not why I found it offensive, but that's okay.
XD
Still, sort of a good point, perhaps.
Personally I am a majestic pan- and a-sexual unicorn horn (I identify as the horn, not as the unicorn) trapped in a human body.
Personally, I would date a "lesbian" as long as they would date me if i were a cis guy. I'm okay with being an exception as long as my being transexual has nothing to do with it.
Quote from: dalebert on July 20, 2012, 09:32:30 AM
I don't know if this is a good time to mention it but I have long identified as a lesbian in a gay man's body.
I dont understand that to be offensive at all.
serious guys.. ::)
I suppose the equivalent relationship for me would be with a straight man who loudly and proudly insists that he is straight. It would be a serious slap in the face for me.
But then there's my last relationship. My ex had absolutely no interest in men and was so dogmatic about it that we couldn't get past it. If we HAD been able to work out our differences (I wanted a husband, he wanted a wife ;)), then things would have been very weird indeed. He identified as straight, period. Because of our twenty-year relationship, he was willing to at least try to make things work, for a little while. Obviously, that didn't last.
I don't know what our staying together would have done to his self-labeling. Actually, he didn't tend to bother labeling himself as straight, probably because straight is a default orientation that usually requires no overt labeling, for most people. So I dunno.
Then again, he is just queer enough that it might have worked for me. I call him a part-time lesbian because he always played lesbian characters in his computer games. With other lesbians, no less. I'm quite sure he isn't trans, but he is...trans-ish in this one way. It's just fantasy.
But if I were to start a new relationship with a straight guy, I don't think I could ever get past the "straight" label unless he changed it. I've worked too hard and gone through too much to be in a relationship where the other guy stubbornly labels himself as straight. And if you think me too dogmatic and inflexible in this respect, then what does that say about the other guy?
Re: Lesbian/FTM relationships
As far as lesbians dating ftms, I think for some it is about the genitals. Not that they don't respect an identity, but they're attracted to certain body parts and not to others. Maybe they wouldn't date a cis guy for the simple reason they don't like what's in his pants. Sexual attraction is that simple for some people.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 20, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
It's because there are people on here who are almost literally lesbian women trapped in gay men's bodies.
That pretty much describes what I was 2 years ago, and the comment didn't bother me. Don't need to be offended on my behalf. Dale was being silly. It's okay to be silly sometimes, nah?
As to the actual topic: people are complicated. Words are also complicated. There are women who identify as lesbian who sometimes sleep with / date men. There are women who identify as lesbian who have a problem with that, and there are those who don't. The word itself has a pretty complex history. And the argument that it includes / should include bisexual women exists. The modern usage of "lesbian" to mean "exclusively attracted to women" is extremely recent. Like a couple of decades old - post it being co-opted for a very different usage in a certain branch of feminism.
The word (outside of meaning a resident of Lesbos) is over 300 years old, and certainly didn't used to include the word "exclusively" in the definition. And still doesn't in some dictionaries. My Canadian Oxford defines the noun form of lesbian as "a woman who is sexually attracted to other women"; it says nothing about attraction, or lack there of, for men (or anyone else). Hell, lesbians who have slept with men are so common that there is a mildly obnoxious term for those who haven't. So there is that.
Personally, I wouldn't have much of a problem being an exception for a girl who ID'd as straight (my equivalent). But then I don't have the genital issue anymore, so I'm not sure it's the same. I don't know how I'd feel about it if I was still pre-op. Maybe not so good.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 20, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
It's because there are people on here who are almost literally lesbian women trapped in gay men's bodies.
No...? Unless there was a sexual orientation change that occurred with transition.
Quote from: Andy8715 on July 18, 2012, 08:35:17 PM
I think the majority (not all!) of lesbians who date FTMs only date us because they think we are "safe" men. I feel like they basically view us as REALLY butch women.
I've wondered about this. I wouldn't say the majority, but there are definitely some lesbians that have this view. Seems like this kind of dynamic (both people trying to convince themselves that the other is something that they're not) would be damaging over time.
Every person is entitled to their own identity. A lesbian can date a trans guy and still identify as a lesbian. The fact that someone falls in love with another person does not invalidate their own identity or mean that they have to change their own identity just because of who they love. I identify as a gay man and my girlfriend identifies as a lesbian. How is it right to sit there and say, "Oh, well that person CAN'T be a lesbian if they're dating a trans guy." That's just as bad as telling someone they're not really trans because they don't have certain body parts. It's policing. And it's not cool.
I would never tell her that she's not allowed to identify as a lesbian because she's with me. Likewise, she wouldn't tell me I can't identify as a gay man. Who cares how we each identify? We're together and happy and that's what actually matters. Every person is their own person. I wouldn't change my own identity because of someone else or for someone else and I wouldn't want someone else to do that, either.
Quote from: fooledthecrowd on July 27, 2012, 09:36:31 PM
Every person is entitled to their own identity.
Of course they are, but identifying as something does not make you that something.
Quote from: Andy8715 on July 27, 2012, 09:52:55 PM
Of course they are, but identifying as something does not make you that something.
... Nobody can tell you what your own identity is. It's your own. So however it is that you identify is what you are as a person.
Other people can have opinions about your identity or they can try to force what they think your identity should be, but that doesn't change your identity.
And that's what I'm saying. A person can identify however they want, but I will not view a woman who dates men and women as a lesbian. Sorry.
And I would never date a self-identified lesbian.
Quote from: fooledthecrowd on July 27, 2012, 09:36:31 PM
Every person is entitled to their own identity. A lesbian can date a trans guy and still identify as a lesbian. The fact that someone falls in love with another person does not invalidate their own identity or mean that they have to change their own identity just because of who they love. I identify as a gay man and my girlfriend identifies as a lesbian. How is it right to sit there and say, "Oh, well that person CAN'T be a lesbian if they're dating a trans guy." That's just as bad as telling someone they're not really trans because they don't have certain body parts. It's policing. And it's not cool.
I would never tell her that she's not allowed to identify as a lesbian because she's with me. Likewise, she wouldn't tell me I can't identify as a gay man. Who cares how we each identify? We're together and happy and that's what actually matters. Every person is their own person. I wouldn't change my own identity because of someone else or for someone else and I wouldn't want someone else to do that, either.
This. And really guys it comes down to she is sexually/emotionally attracted to women but she fell in love with me as Brayden and just because I'm a guy that doesn't change her sexual orientation/identity
Quote from: Andy8715 on July 27, 2012, 10:37:36 PM
And that's what I'm saying. A person can identify however they want, but I will not view a woman who dates men and women as a lesbian. Sorry.
And I would never date a self-identified lesbian.
Self-identification should be the only form of identification when it comes to sexuality, sex and gender. Even "straight" is a self-identification, despite that most people don't want to see it that way out of fear of being seen as anything but "straight." This place can be so normative sometimes it's frustrating. It is not for YOU to decide who somebody else is or how they identify. Human sexuality is complex. Human identity is complex. You can't pin it down to "you like this and this therefore you're this." Modern words like homosexual/heterosexual and gay/lesbian/straight/bisexual are very recent words in Western vocabularies and were largely originally introduced into the West by 18th and 19th century psychologists to tried to further classify and sub-classify people they perceived as "mentally ill" (hence why homosexual entered the vocabulary years before the word heterosexual). Transsexual has a similar history, as I'm sure we should all know by now. They are not real tangible "scientific" words with fixed meanings, they are entirely social creations. People are only what they identify as, not what others identify them as.
Personally, I will
only date queer women, some of whom are lesbian-identified. At this time, I would never want to date a "straight" woman. I have problems with the idea of "straightness" and what it encompasses.
I am a transguy. I don't consider myself to be, or to have
ever in my life been a woman or a lesbian. But I do consider myself a queer transguy who is into queer women. I also don't see myself as a cismale. I see myself as an entirely different kind of guy than a cisguy. I am perfectly happy as strictly a transmale. Another sex/gender entirely from cismale or female. If a lesbian-identified woman decides to be with me, she is deciding to be with a transman. Not a woman of any kind and not a cisman. That is not a threat in any way to her lesbian identity. As much as she fears being read as "straight" or "not a lesbian" because of it, I also have similar fears about being read as a "straight" couple. Queer is where I'm comfortable. Many lesbians are respecting and understanding of that. Typically those who understand that human sex/gender/sexuality are more complicated than a bunch of little security blanket boxes. They will always be lesbians as long as they identify as such.
A woman who is with a transman but understands all that can still be a lesbian (as long as she identifies that way) while also still respecting the transguy as a transguy and not as anything woman/female related.
Hell, even Judith Butler of all people has talked about the dangers of policing the parametres of sexual identities like lesbian. That they should never be set to fixed characteristics, that they should be open for those who want to explore them and use them.
P.S. there are some transguys who continue to identify as lesbians after coming out and living as transguys...I'm sure you all would be ranting against them too. Hell, I remember in a thread a while back on feminine transguys that someone posted a video of a frequent vlogger (think his name is Chase) who stated he still identifies as a lesbian despite being a transguy. Again, people are what they identify as. Just because you don't want to respect other people's identities, doesn't make their identities any less valid.
^^
On the whole I agree with that perspective. Identity is inherently personal. But at a certain point language does break down entirely if there are no parameters whatsoever. I.e. the words cease to have meaning because so many people are using them in so many different ways. Given that the entire point of language is to communicate... On a micro level it works, because the reality is there are a pretty limited number of people who are using the words in non-standard ways... but if this was happening on a macro level? You end up with words that have no meaning any more.
I mean, I need a word that says "I'm a girl and I like other girls." At what point would I no longer have a word that means that? There are a limited number of girls who like other girls, and we use these words to find each other, to group together to form communities based on a shared attraction. It is more than exclusively identity labels. These words also have a function. If I go to a lesbian club, it isn't super weird for me to expect girls who like other girls to be there, right? I mean there is kind of a point to all this beyond "this sticker means something to me."
Also on the topic of stickers that mean things, the argument that one person's identity doesn't impact on another's is... flawed. Words are communication, and thus inherently social devices. If enough people take on a certain label, the meaning alters for everyone using the label. And if the people originally using that label are say... an underprivileged minority group? It isn't entirely neutral.
There is the heavily propagated idea of lesbian women just needing the right man to "turn them." Lesbian women sleeping with men is such a common thing in our media that it's got its own tvtrope. Maybe it shouldn't be that big a deal. But it kind of is. People get reminded of it when their parents tell them it's just a phase and set them up on dates with blokes; or when they tell men they are exclusively interested in women, and instead of backing off, they get more pushy... It's wrapped up in the whole thing about sex between women not being real sex while simultaneously being eroticized (badly) by the porn industry for straight blokes, about how we are all just playing pretend and imitating straight relationships, about every time some clueless straight person asks who the man is in the relationship. It's about the flat out lack of respect for our identities. So people kind of have feelings whenever someone in what appears to be a straight relationship uses the word "lesbian."
And that's just a little bit of the lesbian side. There is a whole essay to write on bisexual erasure and what lesbians sleeping with / in relationships with men do to bi women and how sucky that is. And, of course, the issues for trans male identities. Or what "I like women and trans men" means for queer trans women.
This is actually a thing that has happened before with "lesbian" on a macro scale. The word got taken into a certain branch of second wave feminism, and temporarily ceased to exclusively mean "I like sleeping with girls." It was used as a kind of "I am a woman and love all woman (even if I am entirely not attracted to them)." It was a political rather than a sexual identity. Some of the people who had previously been labeling themselves as lesbians were not super pleased with the evolution of what had been their label to mean they liked screwing other ladies. Eventually there was kind of a... rebellion against that idea and the standard usage of the term became much more restrictive.
I would never argue that it is invalid for a trans guy to identify as a lesbian, or for a woman who is dating a trans guy to identify as a lesbian. That is a personal choice. But it isn't an entirely unproblematic personal choice.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 31, 2012, 12:36:30 PM
^^
On the whole I agree with that perspective. Identity is inherently personal. But at a certain point language does break down entirely if there are no parameters whatsoever. I.e. the words cease to have meaning because so many people are using them in so many different ways. Given that the entire point of language is to communicate... On a micro level it works, because the reality is there are a pretty limited number of people who are using the words in non-standard ways... but if this was happening on a macro level? You end up with words that have no meaning any more.
I mean, I need a word that says "I'm a girl and I like other girls." At what point would I no longer have a word that means that? There are a limited number of girls who like other girls, and we use these words to find each other, to group together to form communities based on a shared attraction. It is more than exclusively identity labels. These words also have a function. If I go to a lesbian club, it isn't super weird for me to expect girls who like other girls to be there, right? I mean there is kind of a point to all this beyond "this sticker means something to me."
Also on the topic of stickers that mean things, the argument that one person's identity doesn't impact on another's is... flawed. Words are communication, and thus inherently social devices. If enough people take on a certain label, the meaning alters for everyone using the label. And if the people originally using that label are say... an underprivileged minority group? It isn't entirely neutral.
There is the heavily propagated idea of lesbian women just needing the right man to "turn them." Lesbian women sleeping with men is such a common thing in our media that it's got its own tvtrope. Maybe it shouldn't be that big a deal. But it kind of is. People get reminded of it when their parents tell them it's just a phase and set them up on dates with blokes; or when they tell men they are exclusively interested in women, and instead of backing off, they get more pushy... It's wrapped up in the whole thing about sex between women not being real sex while simultaneously being eroticized (badly) by the porn industry for straight blokes, about how we are all just playing pretend and imitating straight relationships, about every time some clueless straight person asks who the man is in the relationship. It's about the flat out lack of respect for our identities. So people kind of have feelings whenever someone in what appears to be a straight relationship uses the word "lesbian."
And that's just a little bit of the lesbian side. There is a whole essay to write on bisexual erasure and what lesbians sleeping with / in relationships with men do to bi women and how sucky that is. And, of course, the issues for trans male identities. Or what "I like women and trans men" means for queer trans women.
This is actually a thing that has happened before with "lesbian" on a macro scale. The word got taken into a certain branch of second wave feminism, and temporarily ceased to exclusively mean "I like sleeping with girls." It was used as a kind of "I am a woman and love all woman (even if I am entirely not attracted to them)." It was a political rather than a sexual identity. Some of the people who had previously been labeling themselves as lesbians were not super pleased with the evolution of what had been their label to mean they liked screwing other ladies. Eventually there was kind of a... rebellion against that idea and the standard usage of the term became much more restrictive.
I would never argue that it is invalid for a trans guy to identify as a lesbian, or for a woman who is dating a trans guy to identify as a lesbian. That is a personal choice. But it isn't an entirely unproblematic personal choice.
I don't think how a person chooses to identify within the lgbtq spectrum is ever problematic. Edit: Just thought I'd in this part, I guess to me the whole idea of how people identify or how they present their gender meaning "problems" for other people who share the same identity...is something that kind of irks me a lot. Like transguys ragging on Thomas Beatie for wanting to bear children post-transition because he's "giving transguys a bad name" or "society won't take us seriously." I just really have a problem with that, since I don't think people should have to change who they are just so other people feel more secure about themselves and their "identity labels." Meh.
[Original post]Butler, for example, isn't arguing that the word lesbian should be erased or lose meaning, but that
policing who is and isn't a lesbian is extremely problematic and alienating for a community that is already alienated enough. I think its also recognising that feminism and lgbtq politics are evolving a lot to acknowledge that not everyone is cismale/cisfemale or fits into the sex/gender binary (f.ex. moving from bisexual to pansexual). As far as what you're talking about with second wave feminism and its exclusion of transwomen, from my perspective that's an example of the opposite happening (meaning making lesbian an exclusive label). The whole "woman born woman" crap of the second wave and that still lingers in some separatist branches today is an attempt to make "lesbian" and "woman" exclusive terms that mean XX chromosomes, certain reproductive and sexual organs and that these things meant that every "woman born woman" (how much I hate these WBW/MBW etc terms, you have no idea) had the same social experience in the patriarchal reality of society...which then also became really exclusion to women of colour, women with disabilities, masculine lesbians and anyone who didn't fit a specific class/race/ability version of "the woman experience." Allowing the term "lesbian" to move beyond the second wave restrictions has started making lesbian spaces and women's spaces more accessible to all women, including transwomen and intersexed women who also experienced exclusion during the whole separatist Raymond-inspired era. It also creates space for women who identify as lesbian who don't view sexuality as necessarily always fixed.
I think lesbian can still be political today, and I think making lesbian a term that's more inclusive to all women's experiences who resonate with "lesbian" is making a political statement for sure. And I think that statements a lot more clear against patriarchal values than the separatist/exclusionist movement that was actually espousing a lot of the same divisive tactics anti-woman movements, legislations etc. were adopting.
I see your point, but I guess I'm not sure I agree. I think the problems that are seemingly created when a transman identifies as a lesbian or a lesbian woman also sleeps with transmen are not so much problems for the identity and safety of lesbians or lesbian/queer politics, but perhaps more problematic when retaining traditional understanding of sexuality. I think we're getting to an age where more people are realising that sexuality isn't this static black and white thing that you can easily smack labels on...then suddenly you get your identity taken away from you because you happen to sleep with a transguy or a lesbian or whoever.
Quote from: Berserk on July 31, 2012, 09:30:41 AM
Again, people are what they identify as. Just because you don't want to respect other people's identities, doesn't make their identities any less valid.
Well, it's a two-way street. I figure that since I respect other people's right to identify any way they want, then I shouldn't get crap for not wanting to sleep with them based on their own self-labeling. Labeling doesn't happen in a vacuum; we categorize ourselves in contradistinction to those who are different from us. People use sexuality labeling to indicate whom they are willing to sleep with.
So, from where I'm sitting, my refusal to sleep with straight men is indicative of my respect for their identity. If a straight guy wants to ID himself as straight but still wants to sleep with me, I'm certainly going to wonder why he identifies himself as he does. I'm happy to call him whatever he wants me to call him, but my own private reservations are exactly that--mine, and private. I feel that I have a right to them as long as I'm not openly disrespectful.
I really wasn't talking about trans issues re: lesbian feminism, but the repurposing of the term lesbian as a platonic political identity. It was kind of an interesting thing if you are into language and whatnot.
Quote from: Berserk on July 31, 2012, 08:04:50 PM
[Original post]Butler, for example, isn't arguing that the word lesbian should be erased or lose meaning, but that policing who is and isn't a lesbian is extremely problematic and alienating for a community that is already alienated enough.
I wasn't saying that you or Butler are arguing that the word "lesbian" should be erased or lose meaning. I was saying that there is an inevitable tension with every word between including everything you want to include and having the word still mean anything at all. Words are symbols used to represent ideas. If a trans guy is identifying as a lesbian, in order to include that identity... what does the word lesbian now mean, what does it represent? Because if I go and define it as "a woman who is attracted to other women" that would be a problem, no? See the issue? It isn't a question of desire or intention, just the way language works. Sorry, I'm kind of into language and live in that world and sometimes I skip steps in talking about it.
I certainly wasn't arguing in favour of policing peoples' identities. I did try to make that clear at both the beginning and the end of the post. But that isn't to say that there aren't side effects to people broadening the terms to include disparate individuals. And that choosing to identify a specific way doesn't have an impact. Because it just does. We live in a society with moving parts, and certain kinds of perception issues and when a lesbian screws a bloke on TV, continuing to ID as a lesbian... it does have repercussions. Do those repercussions mean the person can't ID as lesbian? No, of course it doesn't. But I get why some lesbians find that frustrating or depressing (to be perfectly honest, I find it a little depressing). The rather rare representations of that sexuality tend to end in ways that don't include "and the two ladies walked off into the sunset together." And yes that sucks and is alienating. We don't live in a vacuum; we share a society, you know?
I guess I should ask if you think there are limits. Is there a point where it stops being personal identity and becomes appropriation? Thinking, like, Grey Owl now for like the most complicated/grey case in the history of ever. Or past that point?
I also don't think it's fair to bring it down to "just so other people feel more secure about themselves and their 'identity labels.'" Because that argument cuts both ways you know. If it's no big deal why not drop the "lesbian" identity label? The truth is, identity labels ARE a big deal. And people get really really super special attached. Which is why you even have people in a relationship with a trans guy still ID'ing as lesbian.
Also... I'm not sure I agree either. Which is why I find it an interesting thing. If I'd already fixed a position in my head, I wouldn't find it worth talking about much. And I tend to come down on the "personal identities are inviolate" side. But... I do think there are side effects and it isn't simple.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 31, 2012, 09:51:38 PM
I really wasn't talking about trans issues re: lesbian feminism, but the repurposing of the term lesbian as a platonic political identity. It was kind of an interesting thing if you are into language and whatnot.
I wasn't saying that you or Butler are arguing that the word "lesbian" should be erased or lose meaning. I was saying that there is an inevitable tension with every word between including everything you want to include and having the word still mean anything at all. Words are symbols used to represent ideas. If a trans guy is identifying as a lesbian, in order to include that identity... what does the word lesbian now mean, what does it represent? Because if I go and define it as "a woman who is attracted to other women" that would be a problem, no? See the issue? It isn't a question of desire or intention, just the way language works. Sorry, I'm kind of into language and live in that world and sometimes I skip steps in talking about it.
I guess it's different focuses on language, too. To me language and having this "fluidity of meaning" just for the sake of it shouldn't come in the way of evolving identities. Because nothing human is ever static. And when I was talking earlier about this expansive understanding of lesbian (this is, imo, becoming more common) acting more of a "threat" to patriarchal ideals than second wave separatism, I was thinking of it in the Donna Haraway sense of patriarchy's focus on "perfect communication/language" when in actuality, with human beings, there can be no perfect communication.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 31, 2012, 09:51:38 PMI certainly wasn't arguing in favour of policing peoples' identities. I did try to make that clear at both the beginning and the end of the post. But that isn't to say that there aren't side effects to people broadening the terms to include disparate individuals. And that choosing to identify a specific way doesn't have an impact. Because it just does. We live in a society with moving parts, and certain kinds of perception issues and when a lesbian screws a bloke on TV, continuing to ID as a lesbian... it does have repercussions. Do those repercussions mean the person can't ID as lesbian? No, of course it doesn't. But I get why some lesbians find that frustrating or depressing (to be perfectly honest, I find it a little depressing). The rather rare representations of that sexuality tend to end in ways that don't include "and the two ladies walked off into the sunset together." And yes that sucks and is alienating. We don't live in a vacuum; we share a society, you know?
Depends on the lesbian, I suppose. I definitely see the issue with the cismale-driven porn industry's infatuation with pseudo "lesbian" porn, lesbians sleeping with men and how that creeps its way into mainstream television. I 100% take issue with that. But I see a clear difference between straight cismen trying to force themselves into either lesbian dynamics or lgbtq dynamics, and lesbians sleeping with transmen. And frequently those transmen have a history within the lesbian community or the butch/femme community (for example, before coming out as trans I was only really into lesbian/queer femmes but never identified as lesbian myself. I would see that as a queer body within that particular community, rather than one that is specifically gendered/sexed), or continue to identify as lesbians, or in some way have that connection to that community and lesbian spaces. I understand why some transguys don't want to date lesbians. No one is telling them to, just as I won't date straight-identified women and dislike when someone tries to tell me otherwise. But a lot of the transguys who end up with lesbians aren't straight-identified transguys. Its often not the transguys who would be worried about the identity of their lesbian partner and what the implication would be for their identities as men. A lot of times its transguys who date queer and/or lesbian women who actually don't want to be seen as the same as cisguys though not as female either. So I feel like there's this conflict between transguys who want their partners to see them as no different than cisguys post-transition (which is where the issue of how a lesbian partner would see them comes in), vs. transguys who identify as transguys and don't just see the "trans" part as something that exists only until after "transition."
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 31, 2012, 09:51:38 PMI guess I should ask if you think there are limits. Is there a point where it stops being personal identity and becomes appropriation? Thinking, like, Grey Owl now for like the most complicated/grey case in the history of ever. Or past that point?
Yeah, I agree that obviously there are some instances where...there's a heck of a big grey area, like with Grey Owl. With him I also see it hard to say. In some ways I do see it as appropriation since it all began as a fascination with First Nations culture, it almost seems like cultural fetishisation. I think appropriation is definitely about power and social privilege more than anything. For example, as a "white" transguy, I would never go and claim to be a trans person of colour or begin to claim as though I know the experiences of trans people of colour. But at the same time, even that shouldn't be policed, because there are people of colour who "look white" and who have their own experiences because of social standards of what "this" looks like and what "that" looks like. So the experience of invisibility some POC can face within their own communities and outside of them as well. So I would be careful in calling out appropriation. Some (often white) people tend to get insane with calling out appropriation only to make complete idiots of themselves because they still have certain preconceptions themselves about race.
So in a way, appropriation itself is something that's a lot about personal responsibility (which in the case of Grey Owl, is where things get fishy, imo). If I suddenly go around claiming to be a trans person of colour, I'm completely ignoring not only my own white privilege based on how society perceives me, but my own history as someone with white privilege rather than as someone who isn't actually "white" but tends to be perceived that way because of skin tone etc. Even if I recognise race and racialisation as largely a social creation, I also understand that we live in a society where to claim that it "doesn't exist" only further perpetuates racism. In that case I would be using my power as a person deemed "white" in a white-dominant society to claim an identity that speaks to people with a completely different experience with discrimination. And that is more my responsibility in being honest about my own experiences and history than anything else, I think. So yeah...things can be shady, I agree.
So in that case, yes, if you have a cisman with no history in queer/trans communities who walks in off the street and claims to be a lesbian, you again have a person using their own social privilege to invade another community and the safe spaces made for that community. When power shifts like that, it's usually very obvious.
But where transguys fit in and how transguys using "lesbian" or lesbians dating transguys is appropriation...I don't think it can be, to be quite honest. Transguys who identify as lesbians typically don't do so out of the blue. They have a history within that community, and I think its really screwed up and rendering someone invisible to say that "oh well, you 'decided' to transition, so you don't get to claim lesbian anymore." You can't ask someone to abandon their whole life experience and their community and their own self-perception. Same with transguys who continue to date lesbians after coming out. I have a history in the lesbian community and the butch/femme community. I'd sooner die than give up that history. I never was able to identify as a lesbian (but just queer instead), but that doesn't change that that is the community I grew comfortable in and experienced so much in. To suddenly tell lesbian women I date that they aren't lesbians anymore or that they aren't seeing me as a "real man" (whatever the hell that means) if they continue to identify as lesbians, is ignoring both our histories and experiences. It's not as though we're two people out of the blue who were like "well, today I'm going to date lesbians" or "I like sleeping with guys, but today I'm going to be a lesbian." That is different than when you're dealing with people who have specific histories and experiences.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 31, 2012, 09:51:38 PMI also don't think it's fair to bring it down to "just so other people feel more secure about themselves and their 'identity labels.'" Because that argument cuts both ways you know. If it's no big deal why not drop the "lesbian" identity label? The truth is, identity labels ARE a big deal. And people get really really super special attached. Which is why you even have people in a relationship with a trans guy still ID'ing as lesbian.
I see a difference for sure. Especially when it comes to straight-identified people because "heterosexuality" is an identity that has historically always depended on
not being anything else. It also comes with heavy restrictions on what is acceptable for men and women to wear, to say, to do, to want in bed/be turned on by within the confines of heterosexuality. Basically, its something that needs to be heavily maintained (and that was something that was most obviously in the British colonial era, the way indigenous people were treated, those who were allowed to migrate to the colonies, those who were deemed mentally ill or "unfit" to represent Britain etc.) The oppressive nature of heteronormativity is a huge driving force behind the politicisation and claiming of queer/lgbtq identities. Its why some cismale/cisfemale couples in the BDSM scene claim queer identities rather than straight identities...because straight carries with it so much restrictive baggage and identifies itself with "not being this or that."
Labels like lesbian and gay, and these days with other identities like queer and pansexual, these identities (or the naming of them) rose out of the need to identify one's self within a heteronormative/heterosexual-dominant society. That's also why queer is a word that's increasingly used as well, since it moves away from the genders of the partners and a focus on non-normative desire. There are fewer boundaries available to be policed by those who might want to police.
But there are some lesbians who don't think that they should have to change their identities/histories as lesbians in order to love whoever they want to love.
I think it also depends on how you see identities, too. When I talk to a lot of straight-identified people, they have this view of sexual identities as really scientific. Like if you are a woman who enjoys having sex with other women, then automatically that must mean you're a lesbian even without you claiming that identity for yourself. Or if you're a woman who enjoys sleeping with both women and men, then you're bisexual without claiming that identity for yourself. But when I talk to a lot of people within my own queer community, they don't see it that way...as far as who you like to sleep with automatically meaning that you have "this" identity. They see it as something you claim, rather than something you simply "are." I think the difference is worth noting, because originally the label "homosexual" was originally a diagnosis for men who were perceived as "mentally ill" for sleeping with other men. It didn't exist before it was created as a psychiatric diagnosis. Then, through social marginalisation and the need to create a community or sub-culture, it grew out of necessity into an identity.
[Edit]Also, I just wanted to add that I do recognise how queer sexual preferences can also be restrictive. But I see that as often really politicised. For example, I am mostly into queer and/or lesbian women who tend towards the femme side, though not exclusively. But even though I've never really felt the attraction to a cisguy or a transguy, I don't claim that that could never happen. But with cisguys I also see my hesitance to ever get involved with one as also really political and social. A person's politics as well as personal experience definitely plays into whether or not I'd ever consider sleeping with them. I know some lesbians who feel similarly. Some feel repulsed by cismen because of the way society is and what being raised cismale in this society often results in as far as attitudes towards women. Others just don't feel safe around them. And so other things do come into play than just the raw physical stuff. I feel like my sexuality or my own perception of my sexuality has changed since coming out as trans. Like I understand my lack of attraction to cisguys as more than just purely physical, and my broadening attraction to all female identities as more than just purely physical. So just thought I'd add that to say that, yeah, obviously identities and maintaining them are important to people, but I think they're a lot more complicated than just "belonging" to something or whatnot.[/Edit]
What I also find interesting is that we're discussing the degree to which a person's identity is reflective of their sexuality vs. other people's perception...but we aren't talking as much about gender. Like, I identify as a queer transguy...but when I say that to certain straight-identified cispeople, their response will always be "no, you're a woman. You can change this and that as much as you want, but you will always be a woman, and if you like women you're a lesbian." Despite that I am not nor have ever identified as a woman nor as a lesbian. Those people will always just see me as delusional. So why should a person have the ability to determine their sex/gender within a trans community more than their sexuality? We're all living within societies that
force labels on us that we don't identify as. And for many of us, we find that really oppressive. Why is sexuality any different? Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Quote from: Sarah7 on July 31, 2012, 09:51:38 PMAlso... I'm not sure I agree either. Which is why I find it an interesting thing. If I'd already fixed a position in my head, I wouldn't find it worth talking about much. And I tend to come down on the "personal identities are inviolate" side. But... I do think there are side effects and it isn't simple.
I agree it's hardly simply ;D I guess for me, I definitely feel that my position is pretty strongly that personal identity is everything (as long as it doesn't become appropriation, but even then claiming something is appropriation in a lot of instances can be difficult...and has more to do with personal responsibility than being able to be an outsider who calls someone else out for appripriation...imo). Society and society's decisions on the meanings of identities has created so many screwed up situations, that I just prefer to see people as how they tell me to see them. If you tell me you're a lesbian, then that's what you are, even if you decide to have sex with someone who's genderqueer or a transguy or whatever. Who you sleep with won't change my perception of your sexuality, because who would know better than you? :D I just prefer to see people as the authorities of their own identities, and I think the only time that becomes a problem is when the whole social rigidity of identity rears its ugly head. Like with your example about cismale porn or media portrayal of lesbians "falling for" cismen. The problem for me, in that case, is not a lesbian sleeping with a transguy she likes, the problem there is cismale-dominant society itself, the way women's bodies are objectified and portrayed and women's sexuality is policed and always maintained as cismale-centric.
But even though I'm pretty set in that direction, I like discussing it anyways because...well...we're all human. You bring up ideas that challenge my own ideas and that makes me need to think about my own ideas and maybe even adopt some of yours that make sense to me or I can relate to or whatnot...and that's the joy of discussion, imo, is thinking about something in a different way even if it doesn't necessarily change a person's mind.
I guess, in a way, I have the potential to end up in the position of police and I'm wondering what I would do, what I would base my decision on. I work as an editor, which means I'm supposed to fix things when people use words in ways that do not... work. It's something I do with lots of words, a lot of the time.
I actually ended up in the situation a few weeks ago of getting handed an article in which a person defined a queer identity (which happened to also be their own identity) in a way that conflicted with the accepted definition of the organization they were writing the article for. Thankfully I was able to throw that bomb in the lap of the people responsible for the accepted definitions of the organization and run away before it exploded. I.e. my job was just to draw attention to the conflict. And they managed to work out a compromise - including changing the organization's definition, which was interesting.
I guess it's more complicated for me than just "everyone does their own thing." I have more of a responsibility than that. If I get a story to edit in which the protagonist trans guy is dating a lesbian... what do I do with it? Nothing? Does that perception change if it is written by a cis straight person? What if it's written in a way that's really sensitive to the identities and complexities involved? What if it's written by a trans guy and it is really insensitive? What if it's non-fiction / fiction? At what point do I wade into the mess and say, "no this isn't okay, you should fix the things"? And what suggestions do I make for how to fix it?
It is standard policy to try to make your author not look like a bigot, to try to make sure a text is sensitive to certain issues (within reason). In fiction that's done through recommendations and eventually getting your publisher to threaten them (politely) if that doesn't work. In non-fiction you usually have more leeway to do as you please... and then there is the whole issue of sorting out an author's choice of language from the individual's choice of language if they aren't one and the same... and ya. Complicated.
You'd think this stuff wouldn't come up, but it does all the time. Especially for a queer girl who likes to volunteer editing hours to queer organizations. ;)
So, anyway, thanks. You gave me a lot to think about / work with.
ive read almost all of the comments posted and just to clear up a little from the "lesbian dating the FTM" (which i am), ill let you all in on a little secret: i saw someone post about how a lesbian lost all her friends when she started dating and FTM. this is true... lesbians are not kind to bi girls or transgenders. i lost most and almost all of my friends, and even my best friend was on the fence with me about it. they claim you arent a "true lesbian" like its a cult or something. and so what if im not? i date who makes me happy, however i never found myself 100% happy with a straight man. i have dated women for the last six years and was perfectly happy dating women. then i met my FTM boyfriend and fell madly in love. he has been on T for over a year and a half now so i have seen most of the effects of what T does to a woman's body to make "she" and "he". And of course as he continues to take T, his body will change. im perfectly okay with that. He is only getting Top surgery and a hysterectomy, and is not getting Bottom surgery. he claims that the T changes plenty for him. although i have dated women most of my adult life, the fact that he is having top surgery doesnt bother me a bit. call me Bi, or whatever you like, but i dont believe that just because i date and FTM that im straight, however i dont care about the lesbian title. im happy and thats all that matters. as long as you are in love, i dont think it matters if the girl is straight, bi or gay. be open with your gf and make sure that she understands the changes from the beginning and continue to check on her throughout the relationship when larger changes begin to occur. the more informed she is, the more likely she is to accept it, especially if she loves you.
Quote from: hannahsac on December 29, 2012, 02:36:08 AM
ive read almost all of the comments posted and just to clear up a little from the "lesbian dating the FTM" (which i am), ill let you all in on a little secret: i saw someone post about how a lesbian lost all her friends when she started dating and FTM. this is true... lesbians are not kind to bi girls or transgenders. i lost most and almost all of my friends, and even my best friend was on the fence with me about it. they claim you arent a "true lesbian" like its a cult or something. and so what if im not? i date who makes me happy, however i never found myself 100% happy with a straight man. i have dated women for the last six years and was perfectly happy dating women. then i met my FTM boyfriend and fell madly in love. he has been on T for over a year and a half now so i have seen most of the effects of what T does to a woman's body to make "she" and "he". And of course as he continues to take T, his body will change. im perfectly okay with that. He is only getting Top surgery and a hysterectomy, and is not getting Bottom surgery. he claims that the T changes plenty for him. although i have dated women most of my adult life, the fact that he is having top surgery doesnt bother me a bit. call me Bi, or whatever you like, but i dont believe that just because i date and FTM that im straight, however i dont care about the lesbian title. im happy and thats all that matters. as long as you are in love, i dont think it matters if the girl is straight, bi or gay. be open with your gf and make sure that she understands the changes from the beginning and continue to check on her throughout the relationship when larger changes begin to occur. the more informed she is, the more likely she is to accept it, especially if she loves you.
THIS all of it always :) thank you for posting
Just want to say I do consider myself a lesbian 95 % of the time (that would have to be my label if had to label myself.yes most of the time I do go for women..but..I am also attracted to some men.so for me I would really not have a problem being in a relationship with a ftm long term if I fell in love..that being said,as with anything it really depends on the human being,the connection we have ,the personality & the chemistry we have together.
Would a lesbian date a trans man who had lower surgery and had a big penis (phallo)? Or do they prefer trans-men with original equipment? Curious; I know nothing about lesbians other than they came out of the woodwork to hit on me early in transition.
Jay
I had a really hard time giving up the label at first. Really the community was like a family to me, and I'd never really had that before. I spent the majority of my childhood getting it pounded into my head that I was a freak, and then for the first time in my life I have people telling me that I'm cool the way I am, and I really latched on to feeling like I was a part of that. But as soon as I let go of that attachment and just looked at it for what it is, the label itself, it felt weird. Now when somebody refers to me as gay or a lesbian it actually triggers a little bit of dysphoria, y'know since it implies I'm a girl :P (Had a fun time trying to explain how liking girls means I'm straight to a friend the other day, it seemed pretty simple to me ::) )
As for relationships with lesbians, it's a matter of pros and cons. The main problem I have is that some people just don't know how to differentiate between butch and FtM. Like being trans is some special super level of being butch ::) This is what I get pissed about when it comes to fetishizing. I'm okay with someone being kind of turned on that specifically I'm a guy that was born biologically female, for me I don't mind that. But when somebody thinks of me as a girl who wants to be a guy and finds that sexy, it feels patronizing. Telling me you think girls make better looking guys than guys do is not a good come on ::) Maybe it's just me, that kind of stuff is usually pretty personal.
But people are more than labels, and there are some lesbians who are really cool about the whole thing. I mean there's gonna be some issues dating straight girls too, we kind of challenge people's ideas of sexuality.
Quote from: sneakersjay on April 03, 2013, 10:06:25 AM
Would a lesbian date a trans man who had lower surgery and had a big penis (phallo)? Or do they prefer trans-men with original equipment? Curious; I know nothing about lesbians other than they came out of the woodwork to hit on me early in transition.
Jay
It's individual I think man. My girl is finding me more and more attractive and my manly features from 8months on T are becoming more attractive to her. In the beginning, she wasn't attracted to men at all. And now she has no problem if I get phallo and actually loves my current dick.
It is individual, yeah. I had a very strong feeling my ex would be thrilled if I had bottom surgery because she'd have an idea how to please me beyond having fun with my packers.