I'm about 3 years into transition and 1 year on T, no surgery yet. I have a small little nagging voice saying to drop it all just to join the military. Now, would this even be possible? I'm in the USA. Would my changes be too significant to allow me in? Am I crazy?
Someone say anything so I can move on. I'm probably blowing this up without need to. I've just come to a point where it has begun to bother me more than usual. I practically regret ever transitioning over joining up. Console my self pity?
Uhg... ??? :-\
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that transgender people can serve in the USA millitary at this time. You would probably have to detransition and live life as a female again in order to join and that may even be further complicated with your changes and if you get top surgery.
I guess it just boils down to what matters to you the most: serving your country or living life as male. Either way you choose you are such a brave person and I commend you comrade. I know how it feels to hear the Call of Duty and the desire to answer it. I really wish I knew what to say.
Hopefully, if you do transition your Army will have got it's act together and you can join up. Win-win situation. Fingers crossed for you.
Karen.
@Malachite: Unfortunately, I know full and well that transgender people are not allowed to serve openly. I was asking if the transitioning that I've currently gone through would hinder me if I detransitioned in the sense of simply saying I'm female and joining as such. I wasn't particularly female before transition, so I'm just a tad more masculine than before. I pass 100% and that's why I ask. My voice especially, but I still get that it sounds like a 15 year old and I'm 20.
As for what's more important, I don't know. I'm unhappy living my life the way it is, but I would still be unhappy serving as female. I see both as equally undesirable, but at least suffering would help me sort out my life in ways that I don't know how to do on my own. I have an intense need to be part of something bigger than myself by joining the military and that it would help me later become my own person who is capable of being a leader and not a follower.
Thanks for your input though.
@justmeinoz: I have transitioned, but I do hope that it pulls together and allows us to join and serve openly soon.
If you're a year on T, I'm guessing you're passing as male 100 percent. Because of this, then yes, it would hinder you.
I've heard about the American army hiring transgenders, including letting them transition while they serve. Also, once you are legally male, there is no reason they would even have a motive to contest.
But really, I would ask you... Is it really more important for you to become a soldier, rather than be yourself? I'm not just saying this because I dislike everything related to the army. What I mean is: is any particular job, especially one that you don't even have yet, more important than being yourself?
@Hayzer12: Yes, I pass 100%. I figured that it would hinder me, but thanks for reinforcing that idea.
@A: That's what I keep trying to tell myself. I am unhappy either way, but at least one way I am being male and at least happy about that. I get the dislike, that's okay. I don't think anyone needs to agree with it. I have my own glorified view that I know isn't the truth, but I know that I'd still love the life. I simply struggle because they sit so close to each other in importance. Had I had no gender issues there would be no question of me joinging up. I would've gone in after high school, or now had I been smart to take the officer route over the enlisted route. Instead I realized myself and transitioned.
That's why I ask if I'm crazy. I'm thinking now that I have false hopes and I just need to let it all go because they won't be changing the rules anytime soon. Detransition would probably be more harmful than joinging the military would be helpful.
Thanks everyone.
Oh Wolf, if there is any other way that you can find to keep your life moving forward without joining the military, I implore you to try that first. My experience is that the military is no place for a trans person.
Granted, it's been a long time, but when I was outed by an army psychiatrist in 1985, a very serious attempt was made on my life. (Some people in positions of authority over me tried to murder me! I was 19 years old.)
My captain (battery commander) and his sergeant major (second in command) organized an "accident" so that they could be rid of me. I must have a guardian angel watching over me, because I was tipped off 24 hours before my date with death. I ran for my life. The FBI hunted me for over 10 years before I calmed down enough to turn myself in as an army deserter.
Unless things have changed in the military an awful lot (IE. unless the small minded, mean spirited people who are sometimes in charge have all gone away), the military is not a safe place for anyone actively struggling with gender identity issues. Please think long and hard about what you want for your future. Your life may depend on it.
Best of luck!
Miharu
Technically, if you can "pass" - including biologically - as female, you could have a chance. However, if you have a mental health diagnosis (whether GID or something not specifically trans), that will come up in the pre-enlistment screening. If you have transitioned enough to pass as male, do you really want to endure the harassment and danger of being visibly variant? Yes, even though DADT was removed.
Here is another way to think about the issue. A buddy of mine had similar desires to serve honorably, in uniform, in a structured environment that would challenge and test him, and reward accomplishments with advance. Can you find a paramilitary setting where those motivations would be satisfied? Some of the rescue services, for instance, have challenges as hard or harder than many members of the armed forces.
When the rates of suicide in the US military are higher than the deaths in combat, I would think that being trans somehow, de/re-transitioning, and being in that environment would be really hard to endure. I just don't see how someone could be at their best.
However, if you want to get more detailed "insider" info, contact the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network at www.sldn.org/ (http://www.sldn.org/). Good luck.
OMG DO NOT JOIN THE MILITARY !!!!!!!!! i joined a long time ago and it was the worst decision of my life. it took 5 years just to undo the damage being in the miltary as trans has done. DO NOT JOIN THE UNITED STATES MILITARY !!!!!!!!!!!
just to add, i had a friend in the military come out as trans a couple of months after DADT was repealed. Did she get to be herself and serve her country openly and proud ? NOPE!!!!! She was kicked out as if she was some kind of deranged person. DO NOT JOIN THE UNITED STATES MILITARY !!!!!! IT WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE !!!!!!!!
Wolf Man, I would suggest that you make a list of what makes you like the idea of joining the army, and then look into other jobs that have as many of those points in common with it as possible. Why not have a nice, open, long meeting with your school's guidance counselor? There's no better person in resolving career issues. They even have personality tests to help find jobs that are theoretically likely to be compatible with you.
This is pretty simplistic, but... Policeman? Fireman? Paramedic? Nurse? Member of humanitarian missions? Something else?
I would suggest to make joining the military a last resort, so to say. Because when you're in, you're stuck for a number of years. Also, if you want to get out, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you would have very little recognised knowledge or experience usable in a new career. Also, if your new career choice implies studies, will you really be motivated by going back to school? Most people who have worked for a while are too used to having more money and no homework to find the motivation to do so. People who were in the military then stopped often have trouble finding other jobs, from what I've heard, too.
As a last word... Being a transsexual who doesn't transition or detransitions (almost) always means a lot of sadness. But there's a very high chance that someone can still be happy not exactly in the career that was their one first choice back in high school. Gender dysphoria has been proven to (almost) always come back violently; on the other hand, the vast majority of people can find a second choice career that makes them just as happy, or almost, as their first choice.
And you don't even know for sure that you'll like the army that much. But the army is one of the very few careers that requires you to sign a contract for many years. I find it perfectly logical to try some less binding career paths before the one you can't easily get away from if you don't like it...
I would have weighed in sooner, but I just saw this topic. I grew up in the military, and I will say that yes, it did take care of me and my family at a price. My father was a recruiter, mp and later headed a bio med unit at a military hospital. When he was a recruiter, he used to actively discourage "gender variant" (quotation used to imply anyone who did not fit the typical male/female roles) people from joining because in his words - "it's not safe, especially if you end up in the wrong basic group." He told me that I was, under no circumstance to join because I was too masculine for a woman and he had watched young women (mostly who were percieved as lesbians, whether or not they were didn't matter) get harrassed and a few who were assaulted. As per standard in the military, sexual assault rarely leads to prosecution.
I would consider all potiential outcomes before you join the military. If you fel the need to perform a service similar, why not look into law enforcement, fireman, or something similar? The military is a situation where they don't care about equality because you sign your life over to them for a set period of time. Even with DADT repealed, my dad's friend has dealt with a huge amount of emotional hell from his fellow airmen and soldiers. Make a list of what you want to get out of it, and see if you can find a different job that would offer you the same things.
If you want to join, detransition to join, or anything inbetween, it it ultimately your choice. However, I would take all avenues into consideration. Even if you decide to get yourself kicked out later because you don't like, discharge from the military will follow you like the plague.
Hi Wolf Man, I spent four years in the Army, MOS 16P Chaparral missile. I recommend a hitch in the service for everyone. That feeling inside you is your inner warrior. Even if you don't end up in the service, you have my respect for wanting to join. Hugs, Devlyn P.S. Battery commanders have First Sergeants, not Sergeants Major.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 26, 2012, 11:06:43 AM
P.S. Battery commanders have First Sergeants, not Sergeants Major.
Thanks Devlyn. Of course they do. All I could remembered as I was typing was the term "top" in reference to First Sergeant Gottschalk. It's been a long time.
Oh, and I also remember that he was a major a-hole who told me point blank to my face that he was going to kill me. Some details fade... and some are forever scorched into the memory banks.
"Top" until you were on the carpet, then it was right back to "Yes, First Sergeant!" Hugs, Devlyn
Thank you Devlyn Marie. I respect your service to the country. Hooah.
As for service myself, it won't be happening. I'm in a position in my life where everything will be affected aside from just halting transition and with my current changes paired with a GID diagnosis on my health insurance I'm too far out to come back.
I'm so very glad you (Devlyn) understand the feeling within me, the pain I feel, and being supportive of my desire to join the service. I wish I had done this as soon as I graduated high school, but at this point I can't say I really regret anything I've done as a civilian.
Thank you everyone for all your comments, concerns, advice, all of it. It has really helped think everything through.
Just out of curiosity, ehm. I don't mean any disrespect, but with my disliking of everything military, I have trouble understanding. Uhm, I would like to ask. Why did you want to join the army? Are you a fan of firearms particularly?
Quote from: Wolf Man on July 26, 2012, 06:46:41 PM
Thank you Devlyn Marie. I respect your service to the country. Hooah.
As for service myself, it won't be happening. I'm in a position in my life where everything will be affected aside from just halting transition and with my current changes paired with a GID diagnosis on my health insurance I'm too far out to come back.
I'm so very glad you (Devlyn) understand the feeling within me, the pain I feel, and being supportive of my desire to join the service. I wish I had done this as soon as I graduated high school, but at this point I can't say I really regret anything I've done as a civilian.
Thank you everyone for all your comments, concerns, advice, all of it. It has really helped think everything through.
This probably won't help but when I get down about not being able to join I just say that I'm a soldier that's fighting a different battle.
There are a lot of careers that directly support the military, you might get a lot of satisfaction out of helping. Hugs, Devlyn
@Devlyn: I've begun considering something like that, but I'm not sure what there is out there. As for things like law enforcement and the like, I have no interest.
@Malachite: Yeah, that sounds like a nice idea. I don't think it would particurlarly help me out though.
@A: I don't know, really. I am fully aware that I have a glorified view of the military. I think perhaps that that's what's keeping me from seeing the deep flaws with any real concern. My father was a Marine and I just would've liked to follow the same path and continue on further than he had. The one thing I know that I wanted to get out of service was to be part of something b igger than myself. While that can be applied to so many other things in life, I feel like there's a tad bit more respect in wanting to put your life up to serve your country and put it up with your fellow soldier.
I honestly have a hard time seeing the extreme dislike of the military shown by most people. I would be happy to be subject to a draft and I have no problem telling my children that it's a fine path to take in life.
Try this site: Msc.navy.mil for starters, there are tons of defense contractors who routinely send civilians to forward operating bases. Raytheon and General Dynamics, Boeing, BAE are a few others. I work on military avionics now, in the past I worked on RADAR and SONAR positioning systems including a week long trip on the Observation Island. Google that. Hugs, Devlyn
Well, Wolf Man, for many people, the very uses the army is employed for are sometimes wrong, so add to that how badly soldiers are treated, how they can be forced to move cities if the army decides so, the risks and the possibility of having to use weapons and murder people and you can hardly get a lot of liking from those. :x
I guess the willingness to undergo all that suffering is dependent on your nationalism and patriotism towards your country..?
A, I believe you are going off topic. This thread is about detransitioning to join the military. There is an anti-war thread in the Politics section that may be better suited for your posts. Hugs, Devlyn
@A: Devlyn's right about the thread thing, but I will say that it's just dependent on the person and not anything more specific than that. I have nearly polar views to that of the typical white religious republican that would join the military, but that wouldn't stop my joining. I don't agree with the way things are being handled by our government through our military, but that too wouldn't stop me. I feel a greater call to still respect this country, what good it has offered, and the things that others are helping to make happen by being part of its military.
I'll stop there to prevent a big deviation from the thread topic. You can message me if you'd like to talk further, I wouldn't mind. Your point is very good.
@Devlyn: Changed the title thread. You're right about it being pretty general. Thank you for the site as well. I really hope I can find something to help me fill the "void".
Thank you again for the help. Hopefully the thread topic will bring about the others you mentioned.
Here is the regulation as stated in AR 40-501
n. Current or history of psychosexual conditions (302), including, but not limited to transsexualism, exhibitionism,
transvestism, voyeurism, and other paraphilias, do not meet the standard.
As far as for being discharged for being trans; that falls under administrative, NOT medical.
If you are someone who is serving and thinking about coming out it is HIGHLY advised that you contact Servicemember's Legal Defense Network to ensure your legal rights are not violated. It is completely free to use their services.
I know someone in the National Guard in his own state whose CO is allowing him to transition. I didn't think it was actually possible. His understanding is that as long as he stays in state it is okay, overseas it is not. Since he is doing stuff like fighting fires well we need him here. I don't think they would actually pay for T and so on though. I've never heard of this before. I assumed that the repeal of DADT doesn't really apply to trans. Passing 100% wouldn't matter, as eventually the services will make you do a physical.
I'd think the National guard and something like the Marines would be two different animals.
BTW, there are other ways of serving your country. Think about something like AmeriCorps? The Peace Corps has accepted trans members. You can also work for a military contractor. I'm not real gungho these, but to be honest the way things are, the military absolutely needs them.
Detransitioning for this sounds very sad.
I was in VISTA (pre-AmeriCorps). I can't say it was entirely a great experience as I became very depressed. I didn't find it structured enough. AmeriCorps is really a better organization, and you can do a lot of different things. Even work for a Trans organization!
--Jay Jay
When I joined the Navy in 1971, I had to hold it in. I managed to deny it nearly completely till about two months after my enlistment was over in 1975. My service in the Navy was the highlight of my life despite this. It was the disrespect and indifference to this Vietnam era veteran and other Vietnam vets by others that helped bring out my GID anew. I gave the Navy a lot of respect and I got a lot of respect from my shipmates in return. Something that is still lacking in the civilian sector, especially from my fellow Boomers, to this day.
Joelene
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it a debate (besides, I don't like to debate). I just wanted to understand. I still don't fully understand, but I'm grateful to you, Wolf Man, for trying to explain. Just like many things, I will surely understand one day.
Oh, one more thing. If it consoles you any, my sister tried to get in the army. It was the Canadian forces, which I think are supposed to be a little less harsh than the US Army. During the training, she started smoking under the influence of the other recruits; and now after many tries, she can't stop. And then, she was permanently (but thankfully not too seriously) injured at the knee because of the very harsh training she underwent. Now she's quite limited in her physical activities, and of course wasn't allowed to join in the end.
I'm not sure why I'm saying this. Perhaps I thought highlighting a bad experience would relieve you a little from your pain of not being able to fulfill the career you dreamed of. Because as much as little as I understand the will to join the army, I certainly do understand your utmost disappointment. I hope you can find a career that will make you as happy.
Thank you everyone for your responses.
@A: Thank you for trying to understand. To further help you understand I would go so far as to compare my desire to join to that of a religious person whose faith is so great that no amount of logic against it would sway them. I would be in your position, at a complete loss of how they can believe in something so ridiculous and that I am very against due to the way it affects the world around it. While I am not an atheist, I don't feel kindly towards religion.
I also want to thank you for sharing your sister's experience. While I can't say for the comparison of the CF to the US Army, I know that it would be far less strenuous compared to the USMC.
Not necessarily right on target, but interesting: http://www.medicaldaily.com/news/20120801/11213/transgender-military-bradley-manning-defense.htm (http://www.medicaldaily.com/news/20120801/11213/transgender-military-bradley-manning-defense.htm).
I served in the 80's and 90's, and am glad I did - lots of interesting experiences that I would otherwise have missed out on... though one experience that I did miss out on, of course, was the opportunity to be whole.
While I did not serve in any branch other than the Navy, I would rate them as having a good bit of tolerance... we were all misfits anyway - lol.
Sadie out.
I can't wait to read the whole paper, it'll be really interesting. The one part I don't like is the Bradly Manning connection. He's still a POS in my book.
I believe he was only mentioned in passing... certainly not enough to have warranted his name in the address.
I just thought that was an interesting stat.