Getting ready for my next post, I first, like most of the prior posts, try to figure out what everyone is thinking of, expecting, suggesting, interested in, or curious about. This one I had been very hesistant about doing, since I myself am very new to much of it, unlike some of the prior posts that I have had a few years experience. I think I have enough basics at least to put research and present some basic data, then I will change it later if we find out it errors or a different direction entirely.
Here is some of the questions I ask myself.
What does a feminine voice sound like?
What does a masculine voice sound like?
What can or does a androgyne voice sound like, or is it just an ability to change into the other two styles, borrow from the two styles, or integrate both into its own unique style?
What are techniques or steps / tips one can try to develop the different voice sounds?
What are the characteristics, goals, and attributes of the different communication styles?
What kind of vocabulary and grammar does each style use?
I might not be able to answer all of these questions completely or absolute, but I am sure I can find sufficient to at least present a first edition.
What else can I add or are you interested in?
I'm not sure if this is covered by your questions or not, but how about how does mens and womens voices/speech patterns/etc. change in different circumstances? Like talking to a superior vs. a peer vs. a subordinate.
I can answer this being that I was androgynous for a breif period before going fulltime. I pretty much just talked in my male voice (same pitch, but a head voice), but softened it and made it sound more "pleasant". It seemed that some people saw me as male using it and some as female. I'm not sure how clear that is, but it worked. :)
Oddly, I think I've mastered an androgynous sounding voice. Now I said sounding, as for speech patterns that can be highly debated, but for over all range and pitch, I seem to have hit dead on. What I found is that it tends to be more or less "child like" instead of being more 'mature' in its sound, although it doesn't sound like a child's voice, just not old or gendered any particular way. I think I'll put up some recordings of it when I get the time [and when I get over this stupid cold!].
-- Brede
i think that both melissa and brede are right about what a andro voice is like to me i think it should be either male or female no need to try and put on a voice but it should be somewhat softened and plesent or child like in nature in some way. i feel that the patterns of speech is what is important not the pitch or timber.
Those born female, do any of you find your voice becoming more androgynous in certain ways?
Maybe a deeper, more agressive tone.
Hrm. Probably an androgynous voice sounds like mine. Right in the middle of the high/low scale, I mostly keep it on the lower edge of the middle but it will randomly wander all over the place at times. People calling me on the phone usually suppose I am female, people who'd heard me on the radio never questioned my announced maleness. I can speak in half a dozen amusing affected 'voices,' which are all convincingly male or convincingly female if you can't see me.
high pitched [but] with a masculine resonance.
I agree that an androgynous voice sounds kid like. This little (boy, as they referred to him as) androgynous kid came in to work, and he looked/sounded like he could be either boy or girl.
I think an androgynous voice could also be deep, but without the rough sound of a bio male's voice, like mine. I sound like a 14 year old boy. >.< But I pass as male, probably because I have light facial hair and I'm trying to pass as male.
Matt
My voice is very girly, I think.
You can judge for yourself, though.
A vid I did for some friends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8opngRSzbHY) in a desperate attempt to prove that I really couldn't sing. I speak a bit at the beginning.
KK,
MTFs can take voice training classes. Do androgynes have an equivalent voice training class?
Does an androgyne voice sound similar for a genetic male compared to a genetic female?
Interesting topic.
W
I'm female-born and my voice is similar to Jane Fonda's, just to give a known reference. This is apparently a feminine-enough voice to change perceptions. I'm called Sir until 1) they notice I have breasts or 2) I talk.
My voice hasn't changed, per se. But I less often fall into the "more societally correct" higher register "feminine" voice.
-- Sue
Tay, your voice is very girly - the pitch changes of japanese may have increased this, as a female varies in pitch more than a male one.
However...
Isn't the very point of feeling that you are an androgyn a way of escaping the feeling of 'what is an x voice'?
Doesn't a person choose to reveal themself as an adrogyn because they are too tired trying to be male or female because the androgyn is neither/a bit of both/both in one body. Isn't androgny the true 'other' bin of gender? Isn't it a little destructive to describe the ideal androgynous voice and appearance, or am I as unsucessful an androgyne as I am a male or female?
By coincidence, after I saw this thread subject, I think I heard 'the voice'. I was driving in my car and a song came on the radio. It had a voice over in the beginning that was taken from the movie 'Cool Hand Luke'. At first, I thought it was the voice of an elderly woman, but then I realized that it was the speech from the movie where the warden (boss) was saying, "What we have here, is, a failure to communicate." I realized it was that man from the movie. It totally nailed what I would expect an androgynous voice to sound like. While he was talking, I could picture that voice coming from a man or a woman.
I don't know if the recording was messed with or not. But maybe we can find a wav file, or whatever it is that you kids use for audio now, and check it out.
Another voice that comes close is my girlfriend. She has an unusual tone and timbre that could be taken as hard or harsh, but it has an undertone of softness to it (if that is possible). She thinks her voice sounds male over the phone, but since I know who the voice belongs to, I never noticed that until her grown son called the house once and I thought he was her. Their voices are the same over the phone.
I won't post her voice because she'd rip my head off if she ever found out. Love keeps me in line, along with fear.
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 14, 2007, 05:28:14 PM
Tay, your voice is very girly - the pitch changes of japanese may have increased this, as a female varies in pitch more than a male one.
I've always sounded like that. My voice rises and falls and rises and falls and rises and falls. I can't help it.
Since the voice I'm using now (as a women) is exactly the same I used before (as a man) and it passed before (obviously :-) and it passes now, I suppose it could be called androgynic; or maybe it was always girly :-).
I'll try to post a link to it if I can find a place to put up a sound file.
Any suggestion?
Quote from: Keira on May 22, 2007, 11:53:20 PM
Since the voice I'm using now (as a women) is exactly the same I used before (as a man) and it passed before (obviously :-) and it passes now, I suppose it could be called androgynic; or maybe it was always girly :-).
I'll try to post a link to it if I can find a place to put up a sound file.
Any suggestion?
Can you read something cool for your sample?
Like maybe read some Theodore Roethke poems, or some crazy stuff from Vachel Lindsay?
or some marianne moore?
or some Edna St. Vincent Millay?
Please please?
I like to hear poetry and it will give you material.
Jabberwocky....Always a fun thing to declaim.
I think to do an androgynic voice, the best thing is to change the resonnance of your normal voice to a more middle position between male and female if your male or female. Lower your resonnance if your female (not sure how that's done since I always hear it being done the other way around) and slightly lower your pitch. If your male, up your pitch slightly and give yourself a female resonnance (this can be done through practice, mtf do it all the time).
I think that a ftm who doesn't attempt to change his voice beyond what testosterone does to his vocal cords, will have a androgynous tone in the higher end of their range.
As for posting my own voice, if anyone can suggest a place where I can post audio clips, I would put one up. Its easy to find a place to post photos, music for a group, video clips, but just random sound clips, where?
Hi,
I was on another thread, when I remembered that one of my great heroes is Leslie Feinberg. She has podcasts on her site www.transgenderwarrior.org
People can make their own call as to the androgyne of the voice. I find with some of these voices I'm hearing (beyond those which are inside my head) that you get a more clear sense of the androgyne sound (if there is one).
This might be what has thrown some of off when it comes to Tay's video. It might be better to wait a little while, then go back and only listen to, and do not watch, it.
I am lucky to have an androgyn voice. My voice is low by itself. When I am more to the female side, it is softer and slightly higher. When on the masculine side it is a bit deeper. This is natural for me. When I am on the phone, I can easily pass for a man. I feel very lucky with that ;D
I think this is all about my hormonal level. I do think that when my body produces more testosterone and less estrogens this has clearly an effect on my voice. I noticed that very much when I had thyroid problems last year.
I suppose the ideal androgynic voice would not be immediately identifiable as either male or female. My natural voice is a baritone, so it probably sounds male, I tend to speak using modulation though.
zythyra
Quote from: zythyra on June 02, 2007, 06:54:14 PM
I suppose the ideal androgynic voice would not be immediately identifiable as either male or female. My natural voice is a baritone, so it probably sounds male, I tend to speak using modulation though.
zythyra
How do you do that? My head is weird inside. I have little control over what comes out of my mouth. It feels like my throat doesn't like to move and all sound passes through unscathed by my feeble attempts to control it.
Rebecca, its all about training. If you are producing your voice without thinking all your life, of course, trying to even feel the various members of the voice producing apparatus, let alone controllling it will be hard.
Singing is a good way to practice yourself to feel and get a control of the voice apparatus.
Though, sounding like a female, or male (depending which side your going for) singer is much harder than sounding female while speaking, because resonnance takes an even bigger importance than in talking. Singing in an androgyne way though is highly possible. I had an high mid-range for a male, my middle is in the higher first octave of soprano, yet because of resonnance, I don't always sound female, it takes lot more work than raising the pitch, I have to really think about what I'm doing (after a while I'll certainly be able to do it automatically, but its a long haul thing to retrain this (longer than I thought)).
So, for speaking itself, once you've got a feel for controlling your singing voice, it will much easier to control your speaking voice.
Quote from: Keira on June 03, 2007, 12:24:02 AM
Rebecca, its all about training. If you are producing your voice without thinking all your life, of course, trying to even feel the various members of the voice producing apparatus, let alone controllling it will be hard.
Singing is a good way to practice yourself to feel and get a control of the voice apparatus.
Though, sounding like a female, or male (depending which side your going for) singer is much harder than sounding female while speaking, because resonnance takes an even bigger importance than in talking. Singing in an androgyne way though is highly possible. I had an high mid-range for a male, my middle is in the higher first octave of soprano, yet because of resonnance, I don't always sound female, it takes lot more work than raising the pitch, I have to really think about what I'm doing (after a while I'll certainly be able to do it automatically, but its a long haul thing to retrain this (longer than I thought)).
So, for speaking itself, once you've got a feel for controlling your singing voice, it will much easier to control your speaking voice.
Thanks, that makes sense.
I found this thesis which is probably the most thorough, some would say dense, exploration of voice vs social and biological gender I've ever seen.
Only read the intro's, discussion, conclusion of each chapters, its the only one
relevant to a non expert reader. You can read the general conclusion, but its hard to follow it if you haven't read the chapter discussions.
http://www.lotpublications.nl/publish/articles/000035/bookpart.pdf
One of the interesting conclusion is that masculinity can be transmitted through voice, but not femininity, which is very highly associated to the biological gender of the speaker.
Meaning, if you look in any way male, it won't matter how feminine you speak, it won't transmit femininity, only make you more undifferentiated, not more androgyne (they won't place you between feminine and masculine, but some kind of modified male). My own opinion is that this will classify you as a gay male.
So, to sound androgyne, if you are male, you have to significantly change your presentation towards the female side.
But, for a woman, its easier, since masculinity is not as typed, you can get away with a gender neutral presentation and some speach modifications.
In the article, they talk about two types of speach mods,
- Those are linked to the identified biological gender: Loudness and pitch.
(So, a woman to sound more androgyne should speak slightly louder, and at a slightly lower pitch (maybe 1/4 octave lower)).
- Those are linked to the identified social gender: loudness, pitch, tempo and harshness.
(So, a woman to sound more androgyne should slightly up the tempo, not vary the tempo too much (less variance in tempo in man than woman), have a slightly harder attack (less breathy) and less higher harmonics (this is a bit harder one to do than other parameters).
Interestingly enough, when I switch from female to my male side, my voiceautomatically drops. My best friend always notices it. It sounds a lot like a boy who hasn't reachedmaturity in his voice change, and my speech patternalso switches. That came withobservation, however, of other guys. Sometimes my sister, who knows nothing of my bigendered side, gives me a funny look and tells me not to sound like a boy. Other people I meet I can get away with this male version of my voice and they don't think a thing, I'm sure. I ONe time I was so convincing using my "male" voice, a guy on the phone I was with asked me if I was my dad's son! I should have said yes, but feeling awkward and surprised by the question, I said no, and he was so embarrassed he didn't even appologize!
Quote from: Ken/Kendra on April 30, 2007, 07:29:32 AM
Those born female, do any of you find your voice becoming more androgynous in certain ways?
Maybe a deeper, more agressive tone.
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 14, 2007, 05:28:14 PM
Tay, your voice is very girly - the pitch changes of japanese may have increased this, as a female varies in pitch more than a male one.
However...
Isn't the very point of feeling that you are an androgyn a way of escaping the feeling of 'what is an x voice'?
Doesn't a person choose to reveal themself as an adrogyn because they are too tired trying to be male or female because the androgyn is neither/a bit of both/both in one body. Isn't androgny the true 'other' bin of gender? Isn't it a little destructive to describe the ideal androgynous voice and appearance, or am I as unsucessful an androgyne as I am a male or female?
Oh baby. Yours is the true androgynic voice. A prettier sound, I've never heard.
Quote from: Ken/Kendra on April 30, 2007, 07:29:32 AM
Those born female, do any of you find your voice becoming more androgynous in certain ways?
Maybe a deeper, more agressive tone.
I have a rather low voice anyway, so I don't know that my voice lowers any. But my speech pattern tends to be a little masculine anyway, especially if I'm angry...my word choice and tone of voice are more masculine then. I've also noticed that when I feel more masculine, that my speech doesn't have nearly as much intonation as when I feel more feminine. I have raised my pitch a little bit when I was trying to be a "woman". I think for me it's more about speech patterns and intonation. No one's ever mistaken me for a man just by my voice. When I was a kid, I got mistaken for a boy sometimes.
...actually, now that I think about it, I can be a little monotone. If I'm happy, I have a lot of intonation. So yeah, I probably didn't help at all. ;D
Hi Jaimey. yeah I used to do the higher pitch thing unconsciously too. kind of like i was afraid for people to notice i wasn't a real woman.
Quote from: Nero on May 27, 2008, 09:32:39 PM
Hi Jaimey. yeah I used to do the higher pitch thing unconsciously too. kind of like i was afraid for people to notice i wasn't a real woman.
Yeah. Thank god that phase is over...stupid sheep trying to get us to be just like them... :P
I think my voice is fairly andrgynous, although a bit "gay" sort of speak :S
I have been called a woman on the phone for aquite a few times and in the game I play ( WoW) people often are confused whether Im gay/girl or not when I talk over voicechat
EDIT: IS it possible to upload a file containing my voice?
My voice was called just about nearly perfect by one of my high school english teachers. Of course, I must also say that she was a little crazy. Although I won't elaborate, I will say that I believe what she said was honest. Furthermore, it gives me hope that I might actually have the ideal/ambivalent voice.
Just my little input I thought I would add.