OK Folks,
I'm at month 13 in transition(MTF). I have one friend. She's a sweetheart, but often will say my observations about people seeing me "different" is my "head" talking, not reality. with the exception of someone calling me a "dirty" ?????, she says its all in my mind!
So I have a female coworker who since we met as been polite & friendly. She is/was engaged and her BF was in the Navy. Since I was in the Army, I would always ask her how he was doing and give her positive feed back about their relationship. In return she was the "friendliest" of a group of people(Mixed gender) who I interacted with regularly. One of the clues that suggested that she felt friendly/comfortable with me, was her use of my boy name. The others would use "dude" or just say whatever. So fast forward three months and they return from a business trip. First day they are all smiles and asking me about my change in appearance. Next day they are all quiet. They said nothing but basic required "work" conversation.
Third day her & a female coworker approach me and "she" says with what I received as "a hurtfull tone", addressed me as "SIR"! I was taken aback at first. But it hit me. She has never called me anything other than my birth name. She has always been friendly and "warm". Then three days after sing me in a very androgynous mode she hits me with "SIR"!
I cried the whole way home from work. I knew she used "SIR" to say: No mater how FEM you appear, I don't approve!
Ok, so am I crazy with emotions or is my one and only friend trying to protect me? She is worried I will "take the pipe" if things don't go well with my transition! ???
Best,
Dani
I've never met anyone I can truly trust, but I think that there are people that can be absolutely trusted - they're extremely rare, but they do happen.
So, you probably can't trust your true friends. If you're asking whether you can or not, that would be the first clue.
If you can't trust them, they're not true friends.
To paraphrase the comedian, Rich Hall: "Friends are those who will help you move. True friends are those who will help you move a body."
It's all too easy to mistake one for the other. When you have a friend you can trust, you'll know.
When I started to transition i realized in someways who my real friends were there were one or two that got weird on me but most of them actually accepted it and there was a handful that went out of there way to support me. Not everyone has a lot of great friends but if they cannot accept you for you then they aren't worth your time. Hope everything turns around for you and it all works out for the best no matter what ends up happening.
My father who has lived longer than me and is consequently more wise than me has stated to me on many occasions never to trust 'anyone'. My own experiences point to what he is saying as science fact.
Beginning transition can be hard on a person, if she needs to be "accepted" as female. In real life non-trans people are not capable of "accepting" someone as a gender. In real life people on an instinctual and sub-conscious level determine the gender of others with visual and verbal cues when experiencing their first-impression of you. In real life convincing someone you are a gender is like convincing someone that the pie they are eating tastes like apples. Nothing you can say will have any effect on them, rather it is up to their sense of smell and taste to determine if they are eating apple pie or not.
The biggest mistake I ever made as someone who was transitioning was to seek "acceptance" and if I could go back and do it again I would never funnel all that energy into something so futile and meaningless. The goal of transition for myself was and is to have a female life. In real life you can't beg, barter or negotiate the sex you are, instead you have to change your body, change your voice and change your locale. You can't change what people think about you, it's not in your power and it's really not in their power either.
As women who transition many of us have fantastic imaginations, born out of need and desire. I imagined that people would gradually forget I had ever been male and that I would never even have to come out as trans. If you can learn how non-trans people think then you can use transition to have what you want but you have to work with non-trans reality to succeed. Anything you achieve any other way will have strings attached and conditions applied.
Lol I don't have friends.
I would say though that it looks like you aren't imagining completely the elements of social disapproval you've described. Your friend is correct in advising you not to worry too much. It's so easy to headtrip your way into being miserable and self conscious. Your coworkers will follow your confidence if you're persistent.
I have very, very few "true friends" now.
Life has taught me that even the people that I think are the closest to me cannot be 100% trusted. I've been burned too many times by "true friends" and I learned to never open up to a degree that people have something to use against me in the future. Even just recently I decided to chance opening up to someone that I thought was close, and yet again I got burned.
That just strengthened my resolve to never ever let that happen again.
Friends that can accept you as you and don't care what packaging you come in are a treasure - doubly so when you are in transition.
There is always a big difference between people who knew you before you transitioned, and people who only know you after. Those who only know you after, see you as the woman you are, period (unless some bozo decides to tell them about the woman who 'used to be a man').
Those who knew you before you transitioned, will always think of you differently, unless they are very very special. So your friend isn't deceiving you, she's just one of the special people who doesn't confuse people with the packaging they come in. The co-worker who liked you as a boy and gives you the cold shoulder when you are presenting as your true self - not so special.
That said, being able to meet with a difference between oneself and another person and to truly say "that's for you, that's not for me, but it makes you happy, so rock on, let's go get ice cream and play some pool" - is both an attribute (some people are more flexible in heart and mind and in empathy) and a skill -- the more a person exercises it, the better they get at it. If someone has never practiced that skill and the first test is dealing with your transition, watch out, they may be too deficit to make the jump.
I live in a place where people are expected to have that skill, and those that don't, better know how to pretend they do. "Keep Portland Weird" is the town motto. It means many people here have the skill of seeing people as just people, for all the samenesses and differences, and they teach their kids (and their employees) to do the same.
:) Hey everybody,
Thanks for the replies and wisdom. There is a related question I have and don't want to start a new thread. I'll try and give as accurate description of the issue as possible.
I have worked for the same organization for the last 10 years. During those 10 years I have been friendly, in a coworker sense, with a Lesbian coworker. She doesn't" wear her sexuality on her sleeve", but she's married and doesn't hide it. Over the years we have always been polite and even friendly to each other. By this I mean that whenever we crossed paths at work we would wave, say hello, or ask how each other were doing. several years ago she injured her leg skiing and I talk to her about it and wished her a speedy recovery. When my mom passed 3 years ago, she signed the condolence card. Now keep in mind that she knew that I knew she was a Lesbian and involved in a LTR and then later married. I was conscious to never flirt with her because I wanted her to feel comfortable with me(She's kinda on the feminine side and may guys did hit on her or flirt because she is so attractive).
So as I said in my first post, that I'm 13 months into transition. My female friend said that on a scale of 1-10(1 being male & 10 being female) that I'm currently appearring as a 5. She said people cant tell anymore. OK.... So a few months ago I saw this girl at work and waved. She looked right at me, made eye contact and then just turned her head and walked away! So I'm like Huh? ??? Very next day her and another girl from her group were testing a piece of equipment. My car was parked near the crane she needed to get the equipment into the water, so I asked her if she wanted me to move my car(not being worried about my car, but to make her job easier). She totally ignores me and starts lowering the equipment into the water. I look at the other girl and she gives me a confused look that said: Dude, I have no idea why she just acted that way. So after they get the equipment into the water, they start setting up a laptop to monitor it. I asked her if she wanted to use the shed we have so there wouldn't be all the glare on her screen. Plus it has a table and chairs so it would be more comfortable to work with. Again she totally ignores me. The other girl now had a look that said: Not only do I not know why she is ignoring you, but its kinda making me uncomfortable. For the rest of the day she ignored me and did the same the next day. So here I'm thinking.... What did I due? I haven't seen her in months. Did I offend her unintentionally?
So a month goes by and I hadn't seen her around work. I wanted ask her in person if I had done something to offend/upset her. So I finally decide to send her an email. I basically asked her in a polite way if I had offended her somehow? A few days later she sends me a reply back that was extremely polite, but very "COLD" saying she didn't understand the "context" and that everything was fine. Since that she has continued to ignore and avoid me.
With that description, does that make you think she was acting that way because she realized I trans? I've heard that some Gays & Lesbians don't feel comfortable with Trans people, but I would have never expected that from her. Maybe welcome to the "club", but not that behavior.
Any insights would be great.
Best,
Dani
Sounds like someone who needs to be put in their place. I would prefer direct action as in, "Hey F***head I'm talking to you!", or words to that effect. Some people need to be confronted with their own rudeness.
At least you know where you stand with her.
Her behavior to you is aggressive and hostile, as sure as if she were giving you a middle finger salute. I'd say, socially just stay away from her.
If you need to interact with her on the job, I'd tell her that if there's something the two of you need to work out, you'd prefer to do it person to person, but you wouldn't hesitate to go to management for mediation if that's not possible. If she continues to brush-off, do it.
If she treats you like this on the job, she is creating a "hostile work environment" and federal law requires your employer to address this.
Hey.... :)
@ justmeinoz.... Yeah, that approach crossed my mind, but I suspect I would be having some "long" meetings with HR. Although two can play at the cold shoulder game! :P
@agfrommd..... Ya know I really didn't feel like it was HWE. It sounds that way but I was more confused than anything. This person has always been a total sweetheart to me and everyone as far as I know. Her recent behavior is so "odd" that I am confused beyond words. The thing is, I'm about 99.999999 % sure I didn't insult her in some way. Literally, the only thing I could think of was her being "uncomfortable" with me being trans. I've herd some Lesbians have issues with Trans folks, but I don't know. If she would just say: Look I don't like Trans people , or they shouldn't be in the LGBT soup, then at least I would understand and just accept it. This woman is Amazingly smart, confident, cool, & beautiful! To be honest I thought of her as a quasi role model because of who she was and how she carried herself. I'm the T & the L in LGBT, so its really hard for me to understand. ???
I suppose it hurts to find out one of your role models doesn't like you anymore! :(
I imagine some of them could be trusted with some things, but its a crap shoot. I learned not to trust people when most of my friends shunned me during transition. Its been very difficult making friends with other people, even ones who try to be my friend, because of my past experiences. I trust people about as far as I can throw them, which isn't very far considering my size and definitely not out of my sight.
As for the girl at your work, there's a good chance she is one of those that do feel insulted if she's figured out you are transitioning. Not all women, lesbian or not, are keen on our existence. You'd likely be best off by just letting it go and go to stranger type polite behavior around her and maybe she'll come around later and maybe not. Don't force the issue.
:( @dumb bunny.... I think you may be right. Since I don't know why she's acting that way, I was gonna just let it go. I suppose, in the event we are forced into an interaction, that I will give her a taste of "her own medicine". Maybe not as much as her, Just be very ... "All business" with her.
I hate playing "games"! I really hate intentionally being mean to people! If someone is a World class Douche Bag, then I can be pretty "mean". But generally, I feel horrible not treating people with respect. I suppose that the future only holds more "heart ache" for me. The level of negative vibes by many of my coworkers tells me I'm in for a "bumpy ride"! I'll survive though. My normal shift is the grave yard. I go weeks with out seeing most people(Especially the ones who have been "weird" lately" ::).
Best,
Dani
I've found, in my very limited experience with friends, that there are no "true" friends...that is, friends who will stay by your side, no matter what.
Everyone has "something", some "line", that if you cross it, they'll leave you (or betray you). Everyone. And you'll never know what that "something" is until it happens.
Then you'll be surprised...not only at the "trusted" ones who leave, but the ones you thought you couldn't trust who stay.
That, to me, is a really good reason to be polite and courteous to everyone who isn't a bully (or an ass)...you just never know who privately likes you, and just hasn't had the opportunity to say so.
Quote from: DaniStarr on September 03, 2012, 09:23:12 AM
:( @dumb bunny.... I think you may be right. Since I don't know why she's acting that way, I was gonna just let it go. I suppose, in the event we are forced into an interaction, that I will give her a taste of "her own medicine". Maybe not as much as her, Just be very ... "All business" with her.
I hate playing "games"! I really hate intentionally being mean to people! If someone is a World class Douche Bag, then I can be pretty "mean". But generally, I feel horrible not treating people with respect. I suppose that the future only holds more "heart ache" for me. The level of negative vibes by many of my coworkers tells me I'm in for a "bumpy ride"! I'll survive though. My normal shift is the grave yard. I go weeks with out seeing most people(Especially the ones who have been "weird" lately" ::).
Best,
Dani
You don't have to play games or be mean. Just treat them as someone other than a friend, continue to be polite, respectful and don't try to force anything with them. I've gained a lot of respect from locals, even from those that have issues with me, because I'm nice and treat people with respect, regardless of who they are. The few that have tried to say anything usually end up looking like the asses they are without any real negative reaction from me.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 03, 2012, 09:58:22 AM
I've found, in my very limited experience with friends, that there are no "true" friends...that is, friends who will stay by your side, no matter what.
Everyone has "something", some "line", that if you cross it, they'll leave you (or betray you). Everyone. And you'll never know what that "something" is until it happens.
Then you'll be surprised...not only at the "trusted" ones who leave, but the ones you thought you couldn't trust who stay.
That, to me, is a really good reason to be polite and courteous to everyone who isn't a bully (or an ass)...you just never know who privately likes you, and just hasn't had the opportunity to say so.
The way people are is why I don't believe in unconditional love.
Quote from: riven1 on September 01, 2012, 11:34:34 PM
I have very, very few "true friends" now.
Life has taught me that even the people that I think are the closest to me cannot be 100% trusted. I've been burned too many times by "true friends" and I learned to never open up to a degree that people have something to use against me in the future. Even just recently I decided to chance opening up to someone that I thought was close, and yet again I got burned.
That just strengthened my resolve to never ever let that happen again.
This has happened to me once a few years ago, I tried to trust someone who tried very hard to hit on me. It may have been the worst experience I've had because I was not prepared to being betrayed. I think this is important to be on your guard, so you can't get disappointed.
Quote from: dumb bunny on September 03, 2012, 11:26:39 AM
The way people are is why I don't believe in unconditional love.
+1. Most people have a very, very conditional love. This is even worse when choosing a love partner.
Maybe the meaning of "love" is overestimated.
OK, You all are gonna want to "ban" me after hearing this! ??? OK, FYI, I'm a drunk/lush. I'm OK with that, but just an hour ago I was outside and heard a child screaming "bloody murder"! :o So I think... There is a Young boy who lives two houses down. Maybe he's hurt/or in trouble? So I, thinking one of my neighbors is in trouble goes running over. I get there and nobody is home. I realize the screaming is coming from two houses down. There's two guys standing in the driveway directly across from where the child was screaming(Behind the house). I asked: Did you guys hear that? The both of them give me a "I'm not interested, even if a child is hurt/in danger look and reply. As I go torwards the house , I looked back and both guys were suddenly gone! So I'm like: Ok Lush/1/2 hussy, your on your own! I knock on the door and after a few knocks a woman comes to the door and asks what I want. I explain that I live a few houses down and I heard a child screaming! She states that her son is having an "episode" and that all is OK.
I'm drunk, but sure that I herd a child screaming in a serious way. You can tell when a child or adult is truly upset/scared! It is like a special tone that is hard to fake!
I called a neighbor and asked her. She said her daughter, who lives two doors down has never heard a child, much less a child screaming! She said I did the right thing and said she would let her daugther(She lives two doors down) about what I heard.
I KNOW what I heard! I know that child(Male from the voice) was in a "Bad" place! See, if I wasn't a "LUSH/Hussy", I could have maybe helped that child! Guess I know why I'm wothles! >:-)
You definitely aren't worthless, can't really say on the lush/hussy part though:p
Not many people bother any more with seeing if something is going on, so you did well in my book. And a child could indeed be having an "episode." I heard a few in the store scream bloody murder and sound as if alligators are systematically eating their toes one by one just because they can't have two candy bars instead of just one. But good on you for checking up on it:)
Quote from: DaniStarr on September 03, 2012, 11:57:48 AM
I KNOW what I heard! I know that child(Male from the voice) was in a "Bad" place! See, if I wasn't a "LUSH/Hussy", I could have maybe helped that child! Guess I know why I'm wothles! >:-)
Hi DaniStarr,
If Susans banned people for caring deeply about their neighbors, or for sharing secret things about themselves that they feel ashamed of, there wouldn't be any members left. You are home here sweetie, and this family doesn't hit. As long as you can be kind and respectful of others, you will always find a listening ear and welcoming arms, whatever your problems.
If you are a survivor like me, you may find yourself hypervigilant about children in trouble, and feel adrenaline course through you when you think a child is being hurt. It is good for society that there are people like us, always on the look out, never de-sensitized. Dumb Bunny is right, there are kids who habitually scream like they are being tortured as part of a freak-out that may be part of their condition or mental illness. It is still good, especially when you are sober, to pay extra attention and make sure the child seems ok and that nothing bad is going on. Families are always helped when good hearted neighbors take an interest. Often it is family friends, teachers, or physicians who know the child over time who can see the signs and make the call to child protective services.
If you find this happens a lot, that you get disturbed about things that other people don't, if it affects your sleep or you ability to get out of the house, to meet people, or to get things done, if you find that you have to drink or engage in other numbing behaviors just to be able to calm down, to relax, or to sleep, then you may be suffering from an anxiety disorder or from PTSD.
Both are very treatable with the right therapist, but self-medicating with alcohol loses its effectiveness over time and makes you increase your dosages until you are causing more problems with the medicine than you have from the symptoms you are trying to treat. That does NOT make you a bad person, it makes you human. These are injuries that need treatment just like any other, and the best thing you can do is seek help so you don't have to try to handle them alone.
You aren't alone and you certainly aren't worthless! Whatever is eating you, you have a right to start feeling better and start feeling better about yourself.
Hugs,
Madeline
Quote from: dumb bunny on September 03, 2012, 11:26:39 AM
The way people are is why I don't believe in unconditional love.
Unconditional love mostly seems to work with kids and animals.
Don't judge yourself harshly Dani, you put the parents on noticed if there was something happening. If there is a repeat, I'd just call the Police.
You did good sis.
Mabye its just me being a overly Loyal but I do place trust in my true friends. True friends imo are named true for a reason.
i have a few friends whom i'd consider trusting with pretty much anything. not that i'd tell them everything just because of that, but i truly believe that they'd accept me in all my weirdness, since my experience is that they see the person i am rather than the facade i put up in order to conform. but they aren't more than what i can count on one hand, and that's how many i've managed to gather through my whole life (which isn't really all that long, i'm not even 30 yet)
generally i don't trust people at all though. even out of all the people here whose posts i've read, i think there are only two whom i might consider trusting if i suddenly feel like i really need a friend who can take a little more of me than what i usually show. not that i don't like the rest of you, you're all wonderful people. i just never had enough good friends or older family members to learn how to trust a person blindly
I think there absolutely is such a thing as true friends. if you find you can't trust someone then they obviously aren't a "true" friend. I have some very close friends that I've known for 20 plus years. I came out to them first (before my wife even) and they were all very accepting. When I asked my best friend a few weeks later how he was feeling about me, he seemed confused by the question. His response was "you're my best friend, I love you. Why would that change?" That's a true friend!
As for unconditional love or acceptance? No such thing. I parent's love for a child is the closet thing there is, but if one of my kids grew up to be a sadistic serial killer, I'm pretty sure that would cross the line.
As much as my friends love me, if I came over and shot their dog or did something equally horrible, I'd probably have crossed the line. Friendships are built on trust and mutual respect - that takes time and shared experiences. But it only takes a minute's thoughtlessness to destroy it. But if your a good person crossing that line shouldn't ever be a concern.
As for that issue with your co-worker, I say rise above it. Treat her with the respect that she's not showing you. Be cordial and polite. No need to perpetuate things by being cold in return. If she's as smart as you say she is perhaps she'll realize she's being immature. And is it possible that her problem isn't you, but something else - that you're just getting the aftereffects of?
There are some people in your life who just touch your heart and soul in a way that they can never be truly separated.
I've had some very bad friends as well as a lot of fickle friends.
But I've been blessed with a few really close friends and more if you count my brother, who know me so very well and have supported me through a lot of things.
Some of whom have been out of touch for a few months or years because of geographical locations, but they almost always are there for me when I need someones shoulder to cry on.
Some who have disowned me intially but came back to support me.
I can never show how truly grateful I am to having them in my life and I pray each day that they are ok and are able to take care of themselves.
Sometimes life throws stones at us that make us wanna crawl away but all we can do is hope.
There will be times when we are surrounded with a lot of people who cannot be trusted and we should always be on guard with them.
But there are a few, who come very rarely into our lives, who earn your trust and respect and deserve it in return.
Quote from: Sephirah on August 31, 2012, 03:41:32 PM
If you can't trust them, they're not true friends.
Was going to post the same thing. Using the definition of a true friend, yes, you can trust them. I have only 2 people I consider this type of friend but I would trust them with anything.
I used to have the "don't trust anyone" mentality. You might get hurt less, but you enjoy life less too. Good people do exist, I know it for a fact!