Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'd be interested in hearing about whether anyone else has followed this path or not.

It's been about 3 weeks since my TG feelings returned (after a 25 year hiatus [more or less]), and I've taken several steps.  I've discussed my feelings with my wife, my doctor, and found a psychologist I really like.

Unfortunately, I come from a very strongly conservative background.  Namely, I'm one of those independent, fundamental, KJV-only, soul-winning, sin-hating, [insert ultra-conservative description here] Baptist.  I've shaken hands with the infamous Jack Schaap (before he got busted) if that tells you anything.  Yes, there are problems here.

First, let me sincerely and deeply apologize for hateful things that have come out of my mouth (even though you don't know me).  No matter what happens in the future, I have definitely learned to be more compassionate towards ALL people, no matter their struggles or choices.  I've come to the conclusion that while choosing to act upon feelings is a choice, BEING and IDENTIFYING is not a choice, but is an integral part of the individual.

Continuing on with my dilemma.  Obviously since I have become what I've always viewed as an abomination, I'm having some fairly difficult discussions with myself.  The pillars upon which my life has been founded are showing major cracks.  I've been taught all my life that peace and fulfillment comes from surrendering one's life to God; that dying to self is the primary goal and focus of the Christian's life. 

But I don't want to die to self.  I want to be what I've always felt I am, but have worked so hard to bury.  At the very least, I want to pursue HRT and a transition into as close to womanhood as is possible (the jury is still out on SRS). 

However, from my literal perspective of interpreting Scripture, my beliefs and what I am don't jive at all.  Again, I'm shaken at the very core of my being.  I've found myself asking skeptical questions that I haven't dared to ask before, because "whatsover is not of faith is sin."  And so I feel guilt, shame, a return of the self-loathing that I struggle with from time to time.

I've read some of ya'll's more "progressive" posts regarding the authority of, the infallibility (sp?) of, etc. of Scripture, and while I'm considering those options, I'm not convinced.  Doesn't mean I'm done inquiring; it just means I'm not convinced yet.

I've said all that to build up to my current issue.  My most prominent question is this: Am I questioning God, the Bible, everything I believe in - simply because I want to do something that according to my perspective on Scripture is an abomination to God?  Am I trying to find an excuse to be able to sin?

Judging from many posts I've read, I realize many of you hold to a less strict interpretation, but I welcome all of your thoughts and opinions (part of being skeptical is being willing to listen, eh?).  Thank you for reading my wall of text.   :)

Hello,

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

Unfortunately, I come from a very strongly conservative background.  Namely, I'm one of those independent, fundamental, KJV-only, soul-winning, sin-hating, [insert ultra-conservative description here] Baptist.  I've shaken hands with the infamous Jack Schaap (before he got busted) if that tells you anything.  Yes, there are problems here.

You are not alone coming from that type of background. Retaining that is going to be very,very hard. It is going to be like walking a tightrope. It's going to shake your very foundation. Many will walk away from you or ridicule you.  Now coming from that background who are we to please? Who sees our very heart,souls and minds? How does He see you? Have you asked Him? Does He see you as male or female? Does He go by outward appearances? One of the first things to do is to seek Him.

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

First, let me sincerely and deeply apologize for hateful things that have come out of my mouth (even though you don't know me).  No matter what happens in the future, I have definitely learned to be more compassionate towards ALL people, no matter their struggles or choices.  I've come to the conclusion that while choosing to act upon feelings is a choice, BEING and IDENTIFYING is not a choice, but is an integral part of the individual.

It's not a bad thing if it teaches us compassion. The being and identifying is the rub. Because somehow we are dealing with a disconnect between our mind,heart,soul and spirit. Now what did the Bible tell us about our bodies? Take some time to read Romans 8:18-29. Paul does talk about our bodies being subjected to frustration and we are waiting for their redemtion. Jesus also talks about those who are born eunuchs. If one is born a eunuch is He talking about a birth defect? How wide and deep then is it?

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

Continuing on with my dilemma.  Obviously since I have become what I've always viewed as an abomination, I'm having some fairly difficult discussions with myself.  The pillars upon which my life has been founded are showing major cracks.  I've been taught all my life that peace and fulfillment comes from surrendering one's life to God; that dying to self is the primary goal and focus of the Christian's life. 

Are you truly an abomination in God's sight or is that what you have been taught? Seek Him and ask. This is a time where your foundation is going to be tested and refined no two ways about it. The peace will come when you turn it over to Him and let Him guide you. But make sure you ask Him to confirm it in a very tangible way. Dying to ones self is not fun because it's just as it says,a death.

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

But I don't want to die to self.  I want to be what I've always felt I am, but have worked so hard to bury.  At the very least, I want to pursue HRT and a transition into as close to womanhood as is possible (the jury is still out on SRS). 

God may have you do just that because you have a major factor that God does not take lightly. You have taken a vow to a woman who is now your wife. (This is coming from someone who also was married and had to complete them) It is going to take love and prayer and prayer and more prayer. You will have to hold on to Him for all your worth and don't let go. Are you ready to have Him tell you no or not yet? That may very well be the answer you get at this time.

On this for me I am to wait on Him for His timing. It will be in His time and way.

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

However, from my literal perspective of interpreting Scripture, my beliefs and what I am don't jive at all.  Again, I'm shaken at the very core of my being.  I've found myself asking skeptical questions that I haven't dared to ask before, because "whatsover is not of faith is sin."  And so I feel guilt, shame, a return of the self-loathing that I struggle with from time to time.

Is questioning a lack of faith? Is it guilt or conviction?

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

I've read some of ya'll's more "progressive" posts regarding the authority of, the infallibility (sp?) of, etc. of Scripture, and while I'm considering those options, I'm not convinced.  Doesn't mean I'm done inquiring; it just means I'm not convinced yet.

That's not a bad place to be. You need to be as sure as you can be. No one here can tell you that. That will take time on your knees before God. Only God can show you where your healing needs to be. He can show you if it's emotional,mental,spirtiual, or pyshical problem (Some of them can be tested) and what combinations. I can convince myself I am right but I can't always see what's in there. (Sometimes I don't want to)

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

I've said all that to build up to my current issue.  My most prominent question is this: Am I questioning God, the Bible, everything I believe in - simply because I want to do something that according to my perspective on Scripture is an abomination to God?  Am I trying to find an excuse to be able to sin?

Ask for wisdom and ask Him if it's an excuse.

Coming from a conservative background there are some reality's that are going to have to be faced with your marriage. (Please this is only from a conservative background) You say you had this 25 years ago,if your wife did not know this when you got married,she is going to feel like she was lied to,betrayed,etc. She married someone she thought was a man. When you married her she was given,by you,when you said I do,God given rights to your body. She has a claim on your body,and part of that has to do with her physical needs. If she requests that you not go through with the HRT, and SRS,will you submit to her request? Will you bring it to a point of divorce? What about that issue?
Would you bring it to a place where you cause her to fall into adultery? Because coming from the conservative side the only cause for divorce is for adultery. (Been there myself)

Coming from this side God will NOT let you "off the hook" so to speak about your marriage.

Most fundamentalists will NOT tell you that in the KJV that the word abomination is used the most in Leviticus Chapter 11. What is chapter 11 about? It's about the dietary laws. It is used 11 times in that chapter? Do they eat any of the following?

Land Animals
Swine
Boar - Peccary - Pig (hog, bacon, ham, lard, pork)
Canines
Coyote - Dog - Fox - Hyena - Jackal - Wolf
Equines
Ass - Donkey - Mule - Horse - Onager - Zebra (quagga)
Felines
Cat - Cheetah - Leopard - Lion - Panther - Tiger

Unclassified
Armadillo - Badger - Bear - Beaver - Camel - Elephant - Gorilla - Groundhog - Hare - Hippopotamus
Kangaroo - Llama (alpaca, vicuña) - Mole - Monkey - Mouse - Muskrat - Opossum - Porcupine
Rabbit - Raccoon - Rat - Rhinoceros - Skunk - Slug - Snail (escargot) - Squirrel - Wallaby
Weasel - Wolverine - Worm

Insects
All insects are unclean except some in the Locust family.

Birds
Albatross - Bat - Bittern - Buzzard - Condor - Coot - Cormorant - Crane - Crow - Cuckoo - Eagle
Flamingo - Grebe - Grosbeak - Gull - Hawk - Heron - Kite - Lapwing - Loon - M->-bleeped-<-ie - Osprey
Ostrich - Owl - Parrot - Pelican - Penguin - Plover - Rail - Raven - Roadrunner - Sandpiper
Seagull - Stork - Swallow - Swift - Vulture - Water Hen - Woodpecker

Reptiles and Amphibians
Reptiles
Alligator - Caiman - Crocodile - Lizard - Snake - Turtle
Amphibians
Blindworm - Frog - Newt - Salamander - Toad

Fish and Marine Animals
Fish
Bullhead - Catfish - Eel - European turbot - Marlin - Paddlefish - Shark
Stickleback - Squid - Sturgeon (includes most caviar) - Swordfish
Shellfish
Abalone - Clam - Crab - Crayfish - Lobster - Mussel - Prawn - Oyster - Scallop - Shrimp
Soft Body
Cuttlefish - Jellyfish - Limpet - Octopus - Squid (calamari)
Sea Mammals
Dolphin - Otter - Porpoise - Seal - Walrus - Whale

Long list by the way.

But what happened to change it? In Acts 10 Peter has the dream about the unclean foods

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

But it comes with a balance because those things that God does not cleanse are still unclean. They are repeated throughout the New Testament.

When one comes to this verse it does cause some consternation,

Deuteronomy 22:5

5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

But the question is what does this mean? Is Moses referring to a deception and temple prostitution or is he referring to something more? Each means something different. If God sees us as the other is it then a deception to do so? We have to remember that God also hates lies. Who is he speaking to,when and why? First he is speaking to the Israelites,just before going into the promise land. One of the things they were to keep away from was the practices of the people of the lands they were going into. One of which was male temple prostitutes dressing as female. Prostitution itself was not seen as good,then add deception and it's very easy to see where it would be an abomination. Two they were going to go to war. If one was an able bodied  male it would have been expected that you would be enlisted. If one was an able bodied female you would not be going. That was a law that had already been given. Here again if one were to use a deception (a lie) to either go or not go  is it not easy to see in that case how in God's sight that would be an abomination? But if God does see us on the inside as being the other is it a deception?

Keep these posts coming...they're all good thinking material.  :)

The thing is it's all things I was forced to face myself. My foundation was shaken to it's very core and I am still having to work through some things. The thing is you will find most in here are not fundamentalists any more. It's a very hard position to be in because it is very,very tough to work through it that way.

The one thing I stress the most is to hold on to God and He will get you through it. It may not be the way you want but it will be the way that will please Him and keep you close to Him.

Something else for you to consider. Remember it's not going to be the Pope,a priest,a pastor,your friends or relatives who will be your final judge. Your final judge will be Jesus. And the real questions will be did you know God,trust God,love God, and obey God? The rest is in the details.

My faith centers on God is love and Christ taught us to love ALL people. The rest is insignificant details. As others have said, until people who want to beat me about the head with the old testament are following ALL the old testament rules and applying them as well, it just makes no sense and I ignore them and their "teachings". The one that kills me the most of even Jesus said divorce is bad yet they don't blink an eye at that one anymore. But pull out one verse of the old testament to try to beat me up. *yawns*

People over the decades have pick and chosen specific things in the bible to beat other people up with.  It's not their job to attack other people anyway. It's their job to love others and treat them as they would want to be treated. At least if they are Christians. I highly doubt they would want to be treated the way some of them treat LGBT individuals. I also have to believe if being gay etc was such an abomination under God, I would think Jesus himself might have touched on that subject at some point? Yet he didn't.

They forget the main thing that Jesus showed them the same type of mercy,grace,compassion and love that we are to show for one another. What I am dealing with may not be the same as what someone else is dealing with. But even so we are all in the same boat.
There is not one who is so good that they have the right to condemn someone else.

If I have learned one thing it's that His grace is sufficient for all of my short comings and failures. He still loves me despite all of that and He gets the short end of the stick. He gets a broken down wreck who screwed up royally,who stumbles miserably,is unsure of herself,was a liar,a thief,a drug abuser,self absorbed human being. He took all that away and has made me new. As a Christian I am to remember what I was and where He brought me. And so are all the others.

I really believe God doesn't give two flips about what clothes we wear, what gender we live as or even what sex our partners are. What God cares about is how we treat other human beings and do we show them the same love he shows us. It's our job to let Gods love flow thru us onto others, not to block it or to turn people away from God.

A great analogy someone once gave me about this subject: Think of Gods love as a bright light with people all around it. We should let Gods light shine through us so that it strikes the person behind us. Not to block it and create a shadow so it never touches them or any of the people behind them.

Thinking of it this way, I don't think any of these details makes even a tiny bit of difference. People need to stop looking at the trees and see the forest.

Quote from: Stephe on September 12, 2012, 09:20:25 PM
I really believe God doesn't give two flips about what clothes we wear, what gender we live as or even what sex our partners are. What God cares about is how we treat other human beings and do we show them the same love he shows us. It's our job to let Gods love flow thru us onto others, not to block it or to turn people away from God.

Part of it comes down to obeying Him. I think He cares far more about us then we realize. The thing is what usually happens is that people try so hard to change someone from the outside in. God reverses it and works from the inside out. It just works so much better that way. The one is often forced, the other comes out of love and wanting to obey. God so often works on the things that keep us the farthest away from Him FIRST.

It's not going to be the same for me as it is for someone else. If for me it's suicidal tendencies,drug addictions, and lying,is it right for me to say that you have to clean those things up first otherwise you are not and can not be a Christian? What if in someone elses life He is working on greed,adultery, and cursing? None of us have it down yet. It's a continual process as He conforms us to Christ's image. That is His work.

Quote from: Stephe on September 12, 2012, 09:20:25 PM

A great analogy someone once gave me about this subject: Think of Gods love as a bright light with people all around it. We should let Gods light shine through us so that it strikes the person behind us. Not to block it and create a shadow so it never touches them or any of the people behind them.

That is exactly it. To often Christian's will put up barriers to keep people from Christ. All who call on His name and follow will be saved. All means just that all. To often all people see is the people who are suppose to be His act as accuser,judge and jury. They see Christian's who are suppose to act like Jesus,act like some weird conglomeration of pick and choose items from a laundry list.

What most people are shown is a weak,shallow,feeble image of Christ. Not the risen,victorious,living Son of God,who was victorious over death. They see people trying to make Him in their own shallow and feeble image. The Jesus I know is the one who's love for us is so great that there is nothing so great that can keep us away if we come to Him. The same Jesus who walked with the lepers,forgave an adulteress,had dinners with sinners,told a thief he would be in paradise with Him the very same day,restored a guy who denied Him,forgave a murderer and made him an apostle,made a rag tag bunch of so called "losers" His disciples,talked to a hated foreigner,and turned on the self righteous religious leaders of His day,knowing they would seek His death and do so. Does this Jesus sound like the same Jesus that is far to often shown?

Maybe just maybe we are to point the way to Jesus and then get out of the way and let God do His thing.

As a Christian this should be our motivation in all we do and all we say

Petra - Love (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPO8t3VcTYo#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

And as a Christian this should be one of our prayers

Petra - In the Likeness of You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ-IkCxmFpQ#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]


(I just wish I knew how to put the song on here and not just the lyrics)

Two of my favorite songs by them

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 07:47:30 PM

Unfortunately, I come from a very strongly conservative background.  Namely, I'm one of those independent, fundamental, KJV-only, soul-winning, sin-hating, [insert ultra-conservative description here] Baptist.  I've shaken hands with the infamous Jack Schaap (before he got busted) if that tells you anything.  Yes, there are problems here.

I just want to touch on this with the KJV. I do use it but I also use the comparison. One of the biggest problems with going with the KJV only is that English is a fluid language along with almost every other language that is spoken,the only exception is Latin as it is a dead language. It's meanings will not change as it is set and will no longer change.

Take for instance that if you were talking to my grandfather and was speaking using the words gay and ->-bleeped-<-got,and you did NOT know his definition of those words you would think he was being derogatory to homosexuals,but if you knew his definitions he would be speaking of someone being happy and a unit of measure for iron. Both being world's apart. So if that's true of just 2words in less than 100 years,then how much more has the meanings changed since 1611 when the KJV was first written?

In the KJV for instance they use the word unicorn nine times but do they really mean a horse like animals (modern definition) with a single horn or do they mean a different animal with one horn? Does such an animal still exist that has a single horn that can not be bridled? We may have a winner here there is an animal that does have one horn,can not be bridled and still lives this day in India, it's scientific name is Rhinoceros unicornis or it's common name is the Indian Rhinoceros. If one didn't know that it would be very easy to dismiss it as a fantasy because we all "know" that unicorns don't exist. (At least the pretty little pony type,although they are cute)

Since 1611 we use different syntax also,we do not speak old English,and some of the words are very difficult to understand without a dictionary from that time period. A lot of people could not understand a passage like this

Job 38:9-11

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

What does swaddlingband and hitherto mean? For most they will have no idea. If you don't know what those two mean than how can one understand what is meant "And break up for it my decreed place"? By no means are these the only places. We need to be careful that we know what is being said.

 I guess my own faith is less complex, I just let Gods love into my life then try to share love and compassion with others. And I always filter any 'rule' "Does this hinder me from showing other people love and compassion or hurt others?" If not, it's likely of little consequence. I'm NOT gonna get upset when I eat shrimp for example.

And I simply see Christ as Gods love brought to our level of understanding as an example to follow. Maybe some people see Christs life in earth as "weak"? I know the people at the time did and why many to this day won't accept he was the Messiah, they were looking for a military leader to lead them to victory. It's all a matter of perspective. What Christ delivered was a VERY powerful message for those who will listen to it.

The problem I see is many people try to use Gods words to their own selfish ends.

Quote from: Stephe on September 13, 2012, 09:06:37 AM
I guess my own faith is less complex, I just let Gods love into my life then try to share love and compassion with others. And I always filter any 'rule' "Does this hinder me from showing other people love and compassion or hurt others?" If not, it's likely of little consequence. I'm NOT gonna get upset when I eat shrimp for example.

And I simply see Christ as Gods love brought to our level of understanding as an example to follow. Maybe some people see Christs life in earth as "weak"? I know the people at the time did and why many to this day won't accept he was the Messiah, they were looking for a military leader to lead them to victory. It's all a matter of perspective. What Christ delivered was a VERY powerful message for those who will listen to it.

The problem I see is many people try to use Gods words to their own selfish ends.

You shouldn't get upset by eating shrimp. That was set aside and no one should tell you that it hasn't been. On some of the things on the list they just don't sound too appealing. Would one really want to eat a rat or a vulture unless they had to? Some are just way to cute like puppies,kittens,and bunnies. (I just couldn't because they are so cute) Some just seem way to dangerous for me to try to track down and kill for lunch,like a panther,tiger or bear. I most likely would end up being their lunch. Seafood I am alergic to so.... Does it mean that I wouldn't or I shouldn't, of course not. If it came down to me and a rat,sorry the rat would lose. (Not my first choice)

If you like shrimp go for it girl. No one else is to be your judge in this matter.


He came to set us free.  ;)

Quote from: Stephe on September 13, 2012, 09:06:37 AM
I guess my own faith is less complex, I just let Gods love into my life then try to share love and compassion with others. And I always filter any 'rule' "Does this hinder me from showing other people love and compassion or hurt others?" If not, it's likely of little consequence. I'm NOT gonna get upset when I eat shrimp for example.

Just thought about this but my one dream has always been to see a true Church made up of rich and poor,educated and uneducated,black,brown,yellow,white,red and olive skinned,fancy homed people and those who need a home,those who have dealt with GLBT issues,biker dudes and dudetts,those who were gang members and prostitutes,drug abusers and alcoholics,broken down people,ex sex offenders, and those who had the fortune not to walk there. All in one accord living,breathing,and loving as Jesus did. It just seems like a pipe dream,but one can hope.

I recommend listening to the audio sermons I found Incarnadine
, they started me on a road to begin to let go of the guilt. It has sermons about all LGBT people (including the T)

http://wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/ (http://wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/)

Then I also saw a video a pastor did claiming that lgbt people had 300-600 sexual relationships per year, when i saw the fundamentalists lying about people it also awoke me.

Thinking Biblically About Homosexuality (1 COR 6:9-10) Sermon - John MacArthur [CC] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udT-Ejqwi84&feature=share&list=PLE4369747FDCD63CA#)

when you get to the part about 600 sexual partners a year and then you realize the average male has 9 in there lifetime and women have an average of 4 you know something is up.

You gotta love the pastors that don't present scripture, then invite reflection and interaction from the audience but instead lecture the on how their beliefs are the "true and righteous" ones. And of course anyone who doesn't believe as they do down to the last detail is gonna fry in hell for all eternity.

Quote from: SarahM777 on September 13, 2012, 09:09:30 AM
You shouldn't get upset by eating shrimp.

It's an abomination under Gods eyes as well..

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/ (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/)

One of the things that also gets left out is that the term abomination,outside of two places is NOT used in the new testament in the KJV. One where Jesus talks about the abomination of desolation that Daniel speaks of,which is used in conjunction with the temple.John then also refers to an abomination in Revelation. But the question that needs to be asked why didn't Paul who was taught as a Pharisee,knew the law,knew that that word was in the law,who wrote to the Gentiles never repeated it? The Gentiles were not under the Mosaic law to begin with,it was not given to the Gentiles. How would they know what would be an abomination according to the written law if they were not taught it?

In those days they didn't have the Bible printed as we do today. They had scrolls. Does anyone really believe that the Greek's when Paul first came to them,had scrolls of the Mosaic law in their possesion? Now he did go the Jews in those cities first and they may have had the written Mosaic law.

Now this is where you get into the problem in the early church and the Mosaic law. At that time you were having people that were trying to get the Gentiles to observe the dietary laws,circumcision and the Sabbaths. Those things were shelved at that point. The question then is why? Because they were using it as a form of salvation by works,not by grace through faith in Jesus alone. It's God's covenant to those who believe.

What happens far to often is other people want someone else to clean up their lives first before one can ever come to Jesus. The thief on the cross never had that chance,yet he was told he would be in paradise that very same day.

Does that mean God won't change us as He reveals those things that displease Him? He will work it in our hearts to change us into Christ's image. That comes afterwards not before.

Like it or not we do have an issue that almost every single one of us has been accused of. This has nothing to do if you believe that our issues are or are not sin. Almost all of us have at one time been accused of being liars. Like it or not can any of say that we are not at this time and were not in the past? And we handled it in the truth since the day we were born? Can any of us say that we haven't tried to hide it,bury it, and tried to fit in a "normal role model" ?  It is all to common for us. Try as we like we can not escape it,if we are being honest with ourselves.

Something else. We are so busy trying to get others to understand us,and wondering why they have a very hard time with us,do we ever put ourselves in their shoes? Do we ever ask the question How are they feeling and thinking about it? Do we deal with their feelings or do we try to ignore them because it's about us? Do we ever take the time to realize that they also to a degree are involved in this matter in some way,(Spouses of course being the most involved) Do we ever take the time to think it through? Do we deal with their feelings of betrayal? Do we deal with the fact that they feel like they can't trust us,because as they see us they see us as liars?It also causes them to start questioning themselves,but do we just ignore it?

Understanding is a two way street. Can we really expect them to understand us if we don't take the time to see it from their perspective?

Which leads right into another question. What is it that we are suppose to do? Are we to put our wants,needs,understanding,etc ahead and above the wants,needs,and understanding of other? Or are we to see them as valued and important as our own? Are we not suppose to love our neighbors as ourselves? And if so doesn't that mean that they are valued just as much as ourselves?

Quote from: SarahM777 on September 14, 2012, 08:03:17 AM

Understanding is a two way street. Can we really expect them to understand us if we don't take the time to see it from their perspective?

The problem with this line of thinking is, they shouldn't be so concerned with how others live their lives when it has zero effect on their life in the first place. There is a big difference between curiosity and intolerance. Especially if these other people they are being mean/abusive to are kind loving people, just there is something different about how they chose to live. "Their perspective" seems to be IMHO, their need to control others and them not being accepting of different ways of living or believing. It's no different than intolerance of other religions.

Yes I'm a Christian but I firmly believe Gods main wish of any human being is to love your neighbor as yourself. If someone is doing this but believes in some other religion, like say they are a Buddhist or a Muslim, I'm could care less and I don't think God cares either. He just wants us to treat others with respect and love, the means that get you there is just another detail. Most of these people who are intolerant of GLBT are the same ones that say all Muslims are evil.

Too many Christians that I have seen believe they can simply profess their belief that Jesus is their Lord and savior and this gives them a "Get out of hell card" to treat others however they wish. If they really were following Jesus example and believed in spreading Gods love to everyone, they wouldn't be so concerned about how other people chose to live their lives.

All I can do is show them love and kindness, if they chose to be hostile and abusive in return, that isn't my fault or concern. They are the ones who will have to answer for this and it's not my job to change them, anymore than it is their job to change or "educate" me. If someone asks me a question about being trans, I have no problem giving honest answers. But I also don't think I should have to explain myself to people for them to be kind and loving to me.

I agree with that. But it does go two ways. I am not agree with where they are at,but if I respect them as a person,I will treat their position with respect. The question is why because on the surface it doesn't make sense. They also are human,and in their mind they see their position as be valid,important and meaningful to them. I may or may not agree with them on their position. They may NOT have the same understanding as I.

Why don't they understand it? Parts of the Bible will not be relevant to all people. If I am single and will remain single,does the passages about marriage pertain to me? Does the passages about parents pertain to me? If they do not pertain to me am I going to spend a whole lot of time trying to make it pertain to me? So for most are they going to even try to spend any amount of time to understand or even try to find out about this issue? If it doesn't affect them,can I truly expect them to understand? There is a limit to how far I can go to cut them some slack,I can try to explain as best as I can,listen to their side,agree to disagree in love. Not all who say they are Christian hate us. They just disagree. To them their views are just as valid to them as ours are to us. But on the other hand when it turns to name calling,not seeing each other as people made in the image of God who have value,spitting on them and throwing things at them is no different than them doing it to us.

Slice it,dice it,throw it,and throw it into the blender, as Christians,if we can't love others as our friends,love them as neighbors,love them as strangers,what are we suppose to do at the very last. WE ARE TO LOVE OUR ENEMIES. It leaves no room for hate at all in any way shape or form. Jesus closes that door and if we are truly following Him then we are to obey

Is it really hateful,if one believes as Jesus says He is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him,to say so? Could it not be that for some they will bash,beat people over the head with the Bible, and just getting into name calling and other types of things that would be more of a hateful thing, and that for others doing so out of love because they are concerned about the eternal welfare of the individual enough to take their time,effort and energy to proclaim it? Is the second really hate? I can look at it two ways. I can view both as being hate or I can choose to view one group as being hateful and the other doing so out of love.
You may agree or disagree with either or both of the groups but that choice is yours to make.
To me I would much rather choose that one is being hateful and the other is doing so out of love,because they have the concern and love to tell me.

The worst part of hatred is that while it can be very bad for the one that is hated it will eat away at the one that does hate. It will kill the spirit,take away the joy,sap their strength,and just eat away at the one who is hating. It's just bad news all the way around and it does no one any good.

The one that is being hated has choices to make,one can choose to hate back,choosing the confrontational approach. But this often leads to violence. One can choose to say their peace and walk away,or one can just try to avoid the one that is hating.

I have come to realize that there are going to be those that hate me,if it just because of my beliefs,or because I am TG,it's their problem. They will never spend the time to find out what I am really like and they may just miss out on the best friend they will ever have. Their loss. I just can't see spending all the time and energy to hate someone. It's way to hard. (I can't even stay angry for more than 5 minutes)

There will be those that just avoid us. There will be those who will be neutral and don't care one way or another whether they are around us. There will be those who are a little closer kind of on the edge friends,then there will be the close friends who will hang around us and then there are the ones that are pure gold,the very,very few and very precious best friends that will stick by no matter what. I would rather focus on the very few and the close,and not spend a whole lot of time thinking about how the others feel about me.

Hope,

I do apologize for getting way off track. Something else for you to think about and that God is still working out in me. One of those that will be dealt with be some freedoms but also certain limitations. It goes into what Paul said about our freedoms in Christ.

1 Corinthians 8

8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.


So what is Paul saying? If God confirms to your heart that inside you are a woman, and in your case,remove the restrictions about clothing,we are still to think about how it will affect others.
If I am in a conservative church,and it will cause others to stumble because of it,I am not to get all decked out. Why? Because of the love I am suppose to have for them. Why? Because they may have a weak conscience. Why? Because it may cause them to sin. It goes back to loving our neighbor as ourselves.

I appreciate both the advice and the rabbit trails!  My wife and I have been discussing this issue at great length (and the honesty and closeness have grown our relationship greatly); she's been doing a ton of research as well, specifically a website by "Dr. Jen", a post-op TS.  She and I are both committed to the promises and roles we agreed upon at marriage, but she's willing to find other "ways" to make things "work" if there is shrinkage from hormones or removal from surgery.

As far as changing anything that would be visible at church (or to my kids) - I'm too scared to right now.  There's still too many questions, such as whether or not this is my own creation (although why I would voluntarily pursue these feelings, especially after researching where these feelings lead is beyond me, other than for the "escape" value). 

Still questioning the validity of all this, but questioning and second- and third-guessing myself is par for the course. 

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 15, 2012, 08:34:25 AM
I appreciate both the advice and the rabbit trails!  My wife and I have been discussing this issue at great length (and the honesty and closeness have grown our relationship greatly); she's been doing a ton of research as well, specifically a website by "Dr. Jen", a post-op TS.  She and I are both committed to the promises and roles we agreed upon at marriage, but she's willing to find other "ways" to make things "work" if there is shrinkage from hormones or removal from surgery.

As far as changing anything that would be visible at church (or to my kids) - I'm too scared to right now.  There's still too many questions, such as whether or not this is my own creation (although why I would voluntarily pursue these feelings, especially after researching where these feelings lead is beyond me, other than for the "escape" value). 

Still questioning the validity of all this, but questioning and second- and third-guessing myself is par for the course.

My wife was not willing. So I had to try to shelf it as best as possible. I had to get rid of everything,quit consulling,and seek healing through the elders,the men's support groups and the whole nine yards. The Lord did bless my submitting to that and got me through it.  It was not easy by any means. She did realize something was wrong especially when she is saying living with me was like living with another woman. What hurt the most was coming to the fact that I could not give her what she needed and she could not give me what I needed. Our needs were very much alike and it's very hard to give that which you do not have. It was only by God's grace that somehow we were able to keep it together till she passed away.

Marriage is no longer an option for me at this point,celibacy is the path I am to take till one of two things happens. Either the Lord transforms my body or He opens the door that I can transition by human means,it means also that it may not happen in this lifetime but I can look forward to it when He takes me home,because this shell that I wear will be sloughed off and I will be what He intended me to be. For whatever reason He allowed it for His glory,and I am OK with that. This is my path yours may be far different then mine and that' OK.

Just a quick question Have you asked Him what your name is? He calls me Sarah.  :)

Hope,

Somehow you got me thinking about this,I think I finally have a bit of an answer as to why my first wife left me. Poor dear sweet woman,it had to be so frustrating for her to have to deal with a husband who's wiring was so screwed up that the plumbing didn't work right. Nothing ever felt right,and try as hard as she could it just did not work. We would spend hours and nothing came of it,on my end,on her end she would be OK not great. If that was the case I just wish she would of told me,but I think it may have been part of it.

Long post - here goes...

I was doing a bit of reading on a site referenced by another member here, and read some material that caused me to re-think something that I had been taught and that I myself have preached.  Not by chance, a trusted evangelist friend of mine preached on the very same topic less than 24 hours after I had read that article.  He did a little better job explaining the concept, but I'm much closer to understanding and accepting a deviation in how I perceive the subject of law vs. grace.

As of a certain time frame growing up, I've always been critical - of myself and of other people.  Intensely critical.  Guess I fit in as a "fundy" then, eh?  But I think my critical spirit is sourced in my rejection of my own gender perception.  I've always wanted to live by a set of rules, and I've always been critical of those who stepped outside of my perception of the rules, especially myself.  If my person, my identity and feelings, did not conform to the rules of my biological gender, I was guilty of breaking God's rules somehow.  And since I could never force my identity and feelings to conform to those "rules," I could never truly feel forgiven.  Constant self-doubt, self-hatred, self-despising - and tending towards condemning others with a measure of that same self-condemnation!  What a mess!

Fast-forward to the present.  What I think I've been lacking is a true understanding of the Christian's position in regards to the OT Law in its entirety.  The perspective I'm tending towards now is different than that which I've grown up with.  As an individual who years ago trusted in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in a spirit of humility and repentance, I am saved from my sins.  I am no longer under the law - therefore what Paul says in I Cor. 10:23 (and 6:12) about all things being lawful for him applies to ME, too!  That means I am not bound lawfully to obey Deut. 22:5.  The OT Law no longer applies to me.

Does this open a can of worms?  No, because a different standard now applies to me.  While I am not bound to live by the OT Law (for every one who lives by any part of the law is bound to fulfill the ENTIRE law - hence the godhatesshrimp issue that tags along with Deut. 22:5), I am bound by the law of Christ.

What is this law of Christ?  Same passage in I Cor - expediency and edification.  Every thought or action must be put to the test - not a test of the law - but of whether or not this thought or action will draw me closer to Christ or will help me in pointing others to Christ (including spouse, children, church family, community, etc.).  The question must be asked whether this thought or action will encourage others in their walk with Christ. 

Application time.  What are my goals in relation to my walk with Christ, my family, my congregation, and where does my gender identity fit in?  Will transitioning edify, or will it confuse?  Ugh.  I think I know the answer to that question. 

Does that completely throw out the option of transition?  Full transition - yes, I think so.  Partial transition - is still an option.  For example, today I finishing shaving hideous man-hair off my now-femininely sleek legs; I'm wearing clothes that I know are feminine, but if someone stopped by to chat with me, they wouldn't realize.  While my gender frustration isn't gone, it's tempered slightly by me knowing that I've expressed my feminine core in a slight way.  But my conscience knows that even if my kids walk into my office, they will not be confused by what daddy's wearing.  How far I can go is yet to be determined by both me and my wife.

The Deuteronomy issue?  Not an issue for two reasons.  One, I'm not under the law so it does not apply.  Two, I have a man's body and a woman's mind, so I either walk around naked (not an option, unless I'm trying to scare someone away) or I can choose which gender's clothing to wear at whichever time, limited by expediency and edification.

Wall of text ended.  I've re-read this post several times to make sure I shared my heart clearly.  The conclusion I've come to at this point does not completely fix the problem, but it is the most balanced and workable conclusion that I can find (again, at this point).  If the dysphoria gets worse, I'm not sure what I'll do; but I don't have decide that yet.  Thanks again, Sarah, for your encouraging words.  If I lived closer to Wisconsin, I'd love to visit with you.  8)

Hope,

I am so glad you were able to come to a balance. (It is hard working through it from a "fundies" viewpoint)
Let God lead you. He knows you better than anyone else can ever begin to know you.

Please feel free to PM me any time you want. We will meet someday. (May not be in this lifetime) God will get you through this,it may not be easy but He will not leave you or forsake you.

I am currently reading Karen Armstrong's "The Case for God."  I highly recommend it.

In this she points out that  the so called fundamentalists all date from the late 19th Century,  before then, doubt was always an integral part of religious faith, and the Bible was never taken literally.  Fundamentalism is a Modernist innovation that puts an either/or interpretation on things that were meant to be a mystery to humans.  Language has also changed a lot since the Gospels were first written as well.

Given that Jesus is not quoted anywhere saying anything about sexuality in any form.  His silence on the issue tells me it was an issue that did not interest him at all.  He did however come down hard on divorce.  The fact that there is no interest in opposing divorce illustrates the Fundamentalist's hypocrisy, and hypocrisy is another thing that Jesus opposed.

Need I say more?

Quote from: justmeinoz on October 19, 2012, 05:46:26 AM
I am currently reading Karen Armstrong's "The Case for God."  I highly recommend it.

In this she points out that  the so called fundamentalists all date from the late 19th Century,  before then, doubt was always an integral part of religious faith, and the Bible was never taken literally.  Fundamentalism is a Modernist innovation that puts an either/or interpretation on things that were meant to be a mystery to humans.  Language has also changed a lot since the Gospels were first written as well.

On the literal part I disagree because of one thing,Jesus implies when He speaks of Adam and Eve,Jonah,Moses,Abraham,Lot,and Sodom,that they were literal. If He takes them as being literal and I believe He is speaking the truth then I can do no else but to take them literally.

The rest is why we have all the different denominations. We spend way to much time trying to get everything set in concrete. What makes any of us somehow think that if the diciples who were under Jesus direct teaching didn't always get it,that somehow we are going to get it all figured out?

Don't even have to go that far back. How many people can read the KJV 1611 version and actually understand what is really being said in every place? I for one don't have an old English dictionary.