My last post before going on vacation...from this site...midterms coming up. I am an undergraduate after all...at UC Berkeley, the number one public university in the known universe...or at least The Milky Way!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa155%2FNicole94114%2Fberger1.png&hash=db6ae5975ec6fd235893f33abdda9e23579eb92b)
Here is a link where you can read the entire book but I would advise not to download it.Ways of Seeing-John Berger (http://www.scribd.com/doc/25128416/Ways-of-Seeing-John-Berger#)
Wow, that resonated.
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on September 16, 2012, 04:38:03 PM
I am an undergraduate after all...at UC Berkeley, the number one public university in the known universe...or at least The Milky Way!
So you've said...again...and again.
Anyway, good piece right there.
Study hard and drink coffee.
Quote from: Ave on September 16, 2012, 04:45:20 PM
So you've said...again...and again.
Anyway, good piece right there.
:) :) :) :) :) :)
A famous president---one of our worst--famously said, "There you go again!"
5 Hour energy, Monsters, Amps. Ritalin? (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsmileys.on-my-web.com%2Frepository%2FAnimals%2Fferret-4.gif&hash=34a3e40b48ee901ac7f4a696a28192c1777cff6e)
Nicely written. I suppose, in a way, Women have become victims of their own success in that respect. So much so that we may not be seen entirely as equals in men's eyes.
^_~
You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
All right, all right
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money
For people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
All right, all right
Ah
Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah...
You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
All right, all right
All right, all right, all right
All right, all right, all right
John Lennon, 1968
Well to be fair to our little Golden Bear it is a very high honor to be a student there, you absolutely (like, don't even bother to apply if you're not) in the top 1% of students in the state of California, and in reality, in order to get accepted in most of the top programs there you have to be in the top 1% of all students in the US. Kinda like New York, New York if you are an A student in Berkeley you are an A student in any other school in the world too. Hell, if you're a low B student at Cal you'd be an A student in about 80% of the other universities in the world.
However, if you want to feel good about yourself, most Cal sports teams suck.
Quote from: tekla on September 16, 2012, 05:02:35 PM
Well to be fair to our little Golden Bear it is a very high honor to be a student there, you absolutely (like, don't even bother to apply if you're not) in the top 1% of students in the state of California, and in reality, in order to get accepted in most of the top programs there you have to be in the top 1% of all students in the US. Kinda like New York, New York if you are an A student in Berkeley you are an A student in any other school in the world too. Hell, if you're a low B student at Cal you'd be an A student in about 80% of the other universities in the world.
However, if you want to feel good about yourself, most Cal sports teams suck.
You're absolutely right.
One of my good buddies from Grad School teaches there, and I often go there to use the library (which is a total wet dream for scholars, it's mind blowing), and when I visit her office I'll glance through tests and term papers and it's no wonder that they have no trouble attracting, hiring and retaining the best academics in the world because being able to work with those students is what every really good teacher dreams of.
Quote from: Keaira on September 16, 2012, 05:00:31 PM
Nicely written. I suppose, in a way, Women have become victims of their own success in that respect. So much so that we may not be seen entirely as equals in men's eyes.
^_~
I was worried about not being able to understand what the writer had written and it made my head hurt a little but what I got from that single page is that women have all the power, if they know to cultivate it and exercise it.
Do I get at least a B?
Quote from: Noey Noonesson on September 16, 2012, 06:55:44 PM
I was worried about not being able to understand what the writer had written and it made my head hurt a little but what I got from that single page is that women have all the power, if they know to cultivate it and exercise it.
Do I get at least a B?
D for D cup! :P
Hmmm.... Emics and etics based comments are always pretty spikey chestnuts to handle. Personally I'm always wary of people with ideas that make assumptions about groups without qualifying their belief in the existance of said group. That's just me though... And I am a bit of a contrarian b***h
xox
QuoteI would advise not to download it.
Why do you say this?
But let me just say that the description of "woman" in this clip matches exactly my own inner identity, while the description of "man" is exactly what I have never been able to experience -- despite never having been able to put such concise words to it. This clip has put words to the core of the gender identity problem I've been living since birth.
Quote"She has to survey everything she is and everything she does because how she appears to others, and ultimately how she appears to men, is of crucial importance for what is normally thought of as the success of her life. Her own sense of being in herself is supplanted by a sense of being appreciated by another. ... One might simplify this by saying men act and women appear. ... The surveyor of woman in herself is male: the surveyed female."
(The latter portion is from the continuation of the segment on the following page.)
Setting aside some of the stereotyping, this has given me something very powerful to chew on.
Lora
http://translora.wordpress.com (http://translora.wordpress.com)
I would advise not to download it.
Why do you say this?
Because it all reads like that is my guess. One page is painful, an entire work would be intolerable.
Actually, I think I may have answered my own question. The book is about visual art, not gender identity. It only touches on the subject as a way of setting a context for appreciating imagery of the female form.
Lora
http://translora.wordpress.com (http://translora.wordpress.com)
Nicely primed now for a 1500 word Foucauldian Analysis of a selected reading on "Women and Aging" for Gender Studies, due Friday. Thanks. ;)
Quote from: tekla on September 16, 2012, 05:02:35 PM
Well to be fair to our little Golden Bear it is a very high honor to be a student there, you absolutely (like, don't even bother to apply if you're not) in the top 1% of students in the state of California...
True, but it's relatively easy to transfer in from the community college system. Probably not as easy as it is at UCs with a guaranteed transfer agreement, though.
Something... something... about this article and the idea expressed...
Guess what?! MEN also have this surveyor, they ABSOLUTELY do!
It was one the early exercises in EST to just make sure of just this point and to demonstrate it.
BTW, it ALSO becomes clear during exorcism session... not everyone would be familiar with it...
So WHERE does that leave the whole article?
Just one more ~ socio-semi-scientific writ.
Not bad --- but hey, what's actually all that new about it? Personally... I really can't tell.
Maybe a read too much chick-lit and may be excused for my "and so then what" attitude...
8)
Axélle
That's a very interesting piece, Berkeley girl! Tho there are a couple of things you might bear in mind. First UC Berkeley is 20 places below Cambridge University, my own alma mater, in this American ranking of the world's top colleges ...
http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world (http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world)
Sorry, couldn't resist that! >:-)
And second, while it's absolutely true that women's perception of themselves as what one might call "seen objects" is still absolutely central to their existence, Berger was writing 40 years ago, when the women's movement was till in its relative infancy and before the massive shift in social and economic status towards women in the western world. Simple example: when he wrote Ways of Seeing, women comprised less than 40% of the students at British and US colleges. Now they are more than 60% and are similarly the majority of entrants into, eg, the legal, medical and accounting professions. That makes a HUGE difference to the way they are seen in the world.
All that said, there is absolutely no denying Berger's central point that women are looked at and judged - by one another as much as men - in a completely different way to men. I often wonder whether the sense of being 'clocked', or 'outed' that concerns transitioning MtFs so much may not have nearly as much to do with not passing as they fear, but simply that they are, for the first time in their lives, coming under the scrutiny that women take for granted.
It's also worth noting how strange it is for women when that scrutiny stops as they get older and they become 'invisible'. My mother was an ardent feminist and very successful in her chosen profession. Sh was no fan of wolf-whistling men ... but when she found herself being ignored in the street she was surprised to discove r that it was deeply disturbing to her. She felt like much less of a woman for not being observed ... and I think that experience is quite common.
Cambridge is not a public university. Circle takes the square.
Quote from: tekla on September 17, 2012, 07:17:51 AM
Cambridge is not a public university. Circle takes the square.
Yes. It. Is.
I went there, I should know ...
The status of universities in the UK is not directly comparable to those in the US. But essentially, virtually all our universities would count as public in American terms.
Cambridge University is largely funded by public money, and regulated by the government. When I was there all tuition fees, and even some personal costs were paid by government grants. In recent years, however, government legislation has forced students to pay for tuition at ALL English universities. But (a) those fees are set within limits determined by the government and (b) the cost of those fees is then covered by government-issued loans unless (c) the student comes from a low-income family, in which case the government covers his/her costs.
There are a very few private universities in England that exist completely independently of public money. But Cambridge isn't one of them.
Now, back to John Berger, the way women are seen and matters MtF-related ... !
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 06:05:45 AM
I often wonder whether the sense of being 'clocked', or 'outed' that concerns transitioning MtFs so much may not have nearly as much to do with not passing as they fear, but simply that they are, for the first time in their lives, coming under the scrutiny that women take for granted.
^^^ this!
BTW I agree with your comments about Cambridge and UK universities. I did my degree in the 80s and my daughter is going to uni next year.
Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 08:28:28 AM
^^^ this!
BTW I agree with your comments about Cambridge and UK universities. I did my degree in the 80s and my daughter is going to uni next year.
I'm such an old bat I ENDED my degree course in 1980!! :) I hope your daughter has a great time ... I have two girls: one still at uni, the other graduated a couple of years ago ... And FWIW I think the way in which politicians who received grants themselves have denied them to the younger generation is utterly scandalous.
Plus, their reasoning is specious. The argument goes that if you get a degree, you will earn more, so paying fees is a good investment.
If that's true, you will also pay a lot more tax that someone who didn't go to university. In which case the government would make a fantastic investment paying for your fees, rather than p*ssing the money away on any of the many total wastes of public money that swallow up tens of billions.
But anyway ...
Carlita - I completely agree. I think that the way the whole system was set up was utterly stupid and over-complex. It was far, far better to leave it as it was. I also agree with your point on tax.
And this old bat is only 6 years behind you (B.Sc. Hons 1986)
Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 06:05:45 AM
It's also worth noting how strange it is for women when that scrutiny stops as they get older and they become 'invisible'.
Same thing happens to older guys in gay bars.
Quote from: Arch on September 17, 2012, 08:22:29 PM
Same thing happens to older guys in gay bars.
It's like awesome having someone else aware of the gay male community here ^^.
Quote from: Ave on September 17, 2012, 08:27:30 PM
It's like awesome having someone else aware of the gay male community here ^^.
Hey, it's the center of the universe!!!
Quote from: Arch on September 17, 2012, 08:41:18 PM
Hey, it's the center of the universe!!!
oh no, a castro queen!
XD
Quote from: Ave on September 17, 2012, 08:44:43 PM
oh no, a castro queen!
I wish...I think Tekla's one of the main SF experts around here.
Okay, back on track...Berger, right?
Good luck on your exams, UCBerkeley.
Quote from: Arch on September 17, 2012, 08:22:29 PM
Same thing happens to older guys in gay bars.
That reminds me of a time, long ago, when I was much younger, skinnier and infinitely prettier haha!... Right out of college I went to work for an architect as his assistant. The architect was gay. I was straight, but felt sure I was TS, even though shrinks kept telling me I wasn't ... so I was taking advantage of the whole glam/new romantic thing to dress and make-up as androgynously as possible.
All this guy's clients were gay and so was his whole social circle and of course they all just took one look at me and assumed I was the architect's new young boyfriend. I'll never forget one time walking into a restaurant with my boss. It was a very gay clientele and when I walked in I could feel all these eyes on me and especially on my crotch. I looked down, thinking, 'Sh*t! My flies must be undone!' Then it struck me, no they were just checking me out. And an instant later: so this is how girls feel when guys check them out. It was, ah ... VERY interesting!
Quote from: Carlita on September 18, 2012, 08:48:45 AM
That reminds me of a time, long ago, when I was much younger, skinnier and infinitely prettier haha!... Right out of college I went to work for an architect as his assistant. The architect was gay. I was straight, but felt sure I was TS, even though shrinks kept telling me I wasn't ... so I was taking advantage of the whole glam/new romantic thing to dress and make-up as androgynously as possible.
All this guy's clients were gay and so was his whole social circle and of course they all just took one look at me and assumed I was the architect's new young boyfriend. I'll never forget one time walking into a restaurant with my boss. It was a very gay clientele and when I walked in I could feel all these eyes on me and especially on my crotch. I looked down, thinking, 'Sh*t! My flies must be undone!' Then it struck me, no they were just checking me out. And an instant later: so this is how girls feel when guys check them out. It was, ah ... VERY interesting!
Well, not sooo long ago a pretty similar situation.
Though after a while, days, months, a year or more the situation changed.
I was told: "You talk the talk - but don't walk the walk..."
Someone obviously had wanted to 'bed' me and I was just being friends...
Now post-op... end of friendship.
Became a non-desirable.
The way it goes,
Axélle