No matter what I do , no matter how much I want this and no matter how much I think living as woman will make my life happier and more wholesome, I still cant shake the feeling of dread that I will loose my salvation, I spent this last 6 months reading everything I could to show me its ok to be a Christian and Transgender. Eveyerthing was copesetic and I was swell as a bucket of blueberries until the fateful day of doom when my mom started reminding me I would loose my place in heaven in God's presence.
Even though I have met lesbians and gays and a few transgender people that seem to have the Holy Spirit in them and I can sense no evil within them, its not enough. Eternity is still an awful long time to endure in hell. I fell pulled in 2 directions, part of me says ok lets just accept being intersexed and transgender and go for it, and the other part is saying don't take the risk.
I even have been going to a support group and talking with another pastor there at a different church that I go to which is also open and affirming. Is this some big cosmic joke then? God gives me these feelings of being in the wrong gender or gives someone else feelings of being attracted to the same sex, and then we cannot act upon those feelings?
Is this just demons or sin or some other crap that is appearing like light and yet will send me to my doom?
Is it some giant media/antichrist agenda to get me to give up God and Jesus?
These are the questions I was asking 6 months ago and I still ask them even though I have made steps forward in seeing a GID Therapist for 2 months now and finally getting an appointment started to take hormones in november probably.
I tell you I am still scared and I want to run back to Texas and forget I was even here in San Francisco.
I need some support from you that have felt this way, please tell me how you got past this.
I just need support in general cause I am going bonkers
this isnt going to help but i feel the problem here is religion. being trans isnt evil, the stuff youve been brainwashed with is , tho.
I think this thread might do better in the religious section.
Religion is imperfect yes I know that, but God does exist, I can feel him literally looking at me and hearing me right now. I always have referred to God as a he but I know he is also a she but in reality far above anything of our genders.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on September 17, 2012, 01:13:19 PM
No matter what I do , no matter how much I want this and no matter how much I think living as woman will make my life happier and more wholesome, I still cant shake the feeling of dread that I will loose my salvation, I spent this last 6 months reading everything I could to show me its ok to be a Christian and Transgender. Eveyerthing was copesetic and I was swell as a bucket of blueberries until the fateful day of doom when my mom started reminding me I would loose my place in heaven in God's presence.
It is when I read posts like this that I could happily press a button that would obliterate religion from human life.
OK Shawn. I am NOT a believer. I believe that when you are dead you are dead forever. Gone. Nothing. Oblivion. There is no hell but there is no heaven either. So now you know where I am coming from and you have a context to place my remarks in.
You are here now Shawn, you are living a life that you do not seem to like or enjoy. You are staying away from what you are told is the one treatment that will help you because of the
possibility of an afterlife. So on one hand you have something concrete and on the other hand you have a maybe, a perhaps.
So here are your choices:
- Shawn stays Shawn - there is a God. You have a miserable life and when you die you still might not make it into heaven because you might do something else that sends you to hell.
- Shawn Transitions - there is a God - Your life improves. You are happier (or maybe less miserable) and when you die you still might not make it into heaven because you might do something else that sends you to hell.
- Shawn stays Shawn - there is NO God - You have a miserable life and when you die you are gone forever. The suffering in your life was pointless.
- Shawn transitions - there is NO God - Your life improves. You are happier (or maybe less miserable) and when you die you are gone forever. At least you enjoyed your life.
So it seems to me that your chances of salvation are just as good if you transition. Besides which, the bible is not the word of God, it is the word of
men who say that they have a direct line to heaven.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.staticflickr.com%2F3424%2F3192435737_6d81f4bb88.jpg&hash=9f28c84513946ba1d0dbf9523dea3c7f984ac46a)
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on September 17, 2012, 01:31:59 PM
Religion is imperfect yes I know that, but God does exist, I can feel him literally looking at me and hearing me right now. I always have referred to God as a he but I know he is also a she but in reality far above anything of our genders.
Ok....
So this inifinite being who knows everything, who can comprehend the largest distances and peer into the smallest atom, who constructed an entire universe and populated with life and engendered that life with eternal souls - this font of all knowledge, wisdom and understanding is going to make you burn in hell forever for changing your endocrine balance?
I do not think so Shawn. A God that petty could not create the inifinite.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on September 17, 2012, 01:31:59 PM
Religion is imperfect yes I know that, but God does exist, I can feel him literally looking at me and hearing me right now. I always have referred to God as a he but I know he is also a she but in reality far above anything of our genders.
you can convince yourself to believe anything if you want to hard enough, so why not do you?
Shawn, I don't think your fear is religious. I think your fear is far more primal than that, and one we all suffer from at various times. Namely a fear of the unknown.
If you knew within your own mind, one way or the other, how this would turn out... and what would happen to you when the final curtain falls, then I suspect it would make your decisions easier to make. It's the not knowing that's making you feel this way, in my opinion. You've heard various opinions from people all over this particular spectrum. What you should do, what you shouldn't do, what is and isn't the right thing, and in the end you feel like you still don't have the final assurances one way or the other. The religious context here, well, you believe what you believe and that gives your life meaning. But listening to what other people think and feel about it, you're getting snapshots of what they believe.
The thing is, hon, the only time you learn the rules of life is when the game is over. Until then, you have to make them up as you go and hope they're the right ones for you. This is something that you have to get in touch with yourself about and think about how you feel, how you want your relationship with your God to be. I'm not religious but I'm pretty sure that if your God loves you, then that deity will love you no matter how you present to the physical world. You are who you are inside, and whether you go through with it or not, you'll still be who you are on the inside. And that, if you ascribe to an afterlife, will be what ventures there. Not your physical shell.
So really, since the person you are, the spark of sentience within you, is already in contact with your God, and has already formed that relationship, a very personal relationship... the question perhaps is more about how you feel about making your external self come into alignment with the way you feel inside. What people tell you will happen to you at the end, whichever path you choose... these views don't come from the relationship you have formed with your God. That can only come, I think, from inside you, hon. Perhaps now is the time to have faith in yourself, and how you see yourself to have lived and want to live according to how you believe your relationship with your creator should be.
Fear of the unknown is powerful. It evokes a powerful, deep seated urge within each of us to protect ourselves, to stay where we know it's safe. All I will say is that you have the power of self-determination for a reason. And the ability to shape your life based on your own thoughts and feelings for a reason. Whether that reason is to live true to yourself and allow you to continue to explore your relationship with your God free from discomfort and distraction... that's not for me to say. What I will say, is that you have no less a capacity to shine, and make your mark... to help people, and live what you consider to be a good life if you decide to transition. You don't become a different person, you become yourself. And I think, perhaps, that your God already knows who that is. :)
Shawn, the thing I've come to realize is that people of this world have no right to speak as if they are God or profit, deeming that they know your eternal destiny. To those who judge, take look in the mirror. Some of the most pivotal figures in the Bible were murderers and liars. You're actions don't necessarily reflect the honesty of your heart. Just the fact that you thinking so heavily about whether or not your feelings are in accordance with God shows that you wish to be a good person in accordance with God. Remember, Jesus preferred the company of the sick, outcast, etc. those that would judge you for ANYTHING are totally missing the whole point of Christianity.
I stated over in a thread I started over in the Christianity thread that I appreciate the views of those who do not believe in God the same way that I do. I have learned much about myself and my own feelings after having read everyone's life experiences and the sharing of their feelings. Having said that, I'd like to offer some encouragement in two ways.
First, I was given some good answers over in the Spirituality > Christian sub-forum. Look for the topic entitled, "Self-searching or God-searching" if you haven't already done so.
Second, I have asked some of those same questions myself, coming from a fundamental Baptist background. I'm still dealing with how to reconcile my faith, which I don't want to give up, with my incredible desire to be the woman on the outside that I truly believe I am on the inside.
To that end, let me give you this encouragement from Scripture:
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."
(John 10:27-30)
This passage tells us we cannot lose the salvation we have been given; we're in the Father's hand - we're in the Son's hand, and we cannot be plucked out or get out ourselves.
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)
If we've placed our faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone, not in a religion or a ritual, but in a personal submission to and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the only acceptable payment for our sins, you ARE saved! You've believed on the name of the Son of God - you can have CONFIDENCE that you have eternal life! Just as works cannot save you, you cannot lose your salvation by works - which includes what some misinformed Christians call a mutilation of the body, but which is honestly only the fixing of a birth "defect" where our minds and bodies are not working together as they should be.
Now, having said this, you don't have to agree with me. Several wonderful folks have tried to encourage you the way that they found encouragement: some by the rejection of religion outright. Susan's is a wonderful place for the sharing of ideas, and each of these soul-searchers are simply trying to help you.
I don't know your church background, but I hope these verses have helped!
-Hope
Oh, this is thorny stuff. I'd think twice about getting involved, but I'm a sucker for punishment I guess.
I'm not a believer nor a Christian, but I think there are valid and sincere reasons for faith in a God/god/gods.
The concept of an objective place called hell, designed to eternally torment the sinful, on the other hand... don't worry yourself about it. It has no good philosophical, theological, rational, or scriptural basis. No Creator nor universe will mete out punishment for ->-bleeped-<-. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Isaiah 55:8-9.
As someone who used to be religious - I just don't care anymore about what OTHER PEOPLE have to say about what God wants.
I do believe that God works through us - so we need to take care of our loved ones, stand up for our beliefs and things like that.
However, if as per one of the cornerstones of Christianity is that God is loving and caring and forgiving.
He would accept me as this is how he has created me - as a woman.
we will never know until we are dead if what we did in life was right or wrong - but by then it would no longer matter.
sometimes though people mistake heaven to be some far off planet... - sometimes heaven is just sitting down with people you love and care about and make you happy and have a cup of tea with them and make them happy or just spending time with them.
as for Christianity and LGBT not getting along - that's largely to do with some BS from people who just don't wanna get along so instead cling to stupid reasons that just don't make any sense. for example if you're a devout Christian where in the Bible does it say you need to make someone who is LGBT feel miserable and excluded from society just because of who they are?
similarly just because a person has Christian beliefs doesn't mean they are anti-LGBT - I know a few Christians who do support me and help stay sane.
edit: this usually applies to other religions as well
Quote from: Alexia6 on September 17, 2012, 02:55:11 PM
sometimes though people mistake heaven to be some far off planet... - sometimes heaven is just sitting down with people you love and care about and make you happy and have a cup of tea with them and make them happy or just spending time with them.
As an atheist I believe exactly what you have just written. We make our own heaven or hell right here on Earth. I cannot blame anyone else - God or Devil - for the decisions I make. They are mine and mine alone and I must take full responsiibilty for every one of them.
We all get one brief flicker in the eternal darkness and that is all we get for eternity so we need to live our lives to the full, doing as little harm as possible to others because this is their only chance too.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
Paul said it all.... Jesus doesn't care whether you are female or male.
You are a Christian right. So you should understand Christianity is about forgiveness, even if (which it aint) what you do is a sin you will be forgiven. Do not be fooled by all the bigots and hateful people who claim to be Christian. The people preaching hate and intolerance are the real sinners in life.
A lot of good opinions expressed here. It doesnt matter though, do what you FEEL to be right for you as long as it doesnt cause someone else to stumble directly. As a counter (just trying to enter your frame of mind to see where this is coming from), the argument could be made that this decision "hurts" your family. Does this scare you? Lets forget the whole religion spin and approach with the simplest and easily addressable concerns FIRST, not delve totally into religion. Lets list the pros and cons and not worry about weighing them just yet.
Quote from: Randi on September 17, 2012, 04:22:58 PM
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28
Paul said it all.... Jesus doesn't care whether you are female or male.
That is a beautiful statement, whether you believe our not I wish more people were as accepting as the religion they believe in.
People tend to cling to the hate, fear, and evils of religion rather than its peaceful forgiving nature.
I can't talk from a god loving point of view because to be honest, I am simply a spiritual being but not a religious being.
There is the answer to religious struggles right there! We are all spiritual creatures, not religious. Mind, body, spirit: not mind, body, religion. Dont let religion counter what you feel in your spirit to be true. Also, dont let your mind overwhelm your spirit either. Bring them in synch. It could very well be that your spirit doesnt want to go through with all this, I do not know, but it doesnt even sound like you are listening to it. Just dont focus on the battle between what you think and what you where taught. It is entirely possible that neither viewpoint you are harboring is correct. It helps me to pray, even shout to God. After releasing this tension, I feel my something else... I found in the past that I thought I wanted something, then after really getting worked up realized it wasnt really what my soul wanted (then I would just cry until I couldnt anymore). There have also been times when I did this and felt at peace. Im not going to really try and overanalyze, but you should really just talk to God, even if it doesnt feel like you are being heard (at the very least your spirit will hear and either align, or disalign from your mind). Lol, the above might all sound like gibberish to both religious people and atheists, but there are entire sections of the brain that responds when people approach their own chosen higher power in conversation. That is a scientifically verified fact.
Interestingly, when certain sections of the brain are externally activated with a magnetic field, subjects will often express a very strong feeling that they are in the presence of spiritual beings (some described as angels). I know this doesnt prove or disprove the existence of God, just that our brains are wired to feel spiritual. It isnt just one isolated area either, there are multiple zones and they are often different for each person.
well the problem also for me is, I have not always felt bad about having a male body, and yet often more than not i do feel bad about having a male body.
Here are the things that I know are true about me and will never change regardless:
I hate facial hair
I hate body hair
I wish i looked even softer and smoother
I like womens clothes
I like painting my nails and my face
I am very emotional and moody
I like sensitive and soft and things of a feminine nature
My only male side would be:
My voice which I considered voice surgery but would loose my ability to go from low to high in voice impressions.
The fact that I still dream as male and did grow up mostly like a boy and for the longest time did accept myself as male, even though the female side was getting stronger as i got older.
My mom just sent me some money and wants me to go back to Texas, forget about all LGBT people and pretend I am a conservative again and go back in the closet essentially and reject what i learned. She wants to send me to a pastor who she things will straighten me out.
A male pastor of course, she feels I need a male role model to fix me. :embarrassed:
I sometimes still feel male but it wavers all day long back and forth this power struggle for my identity. I dream of what I could become but I also fear what I may loose.
My mom even wants me to take testosterone and try to man up as it were and then i would feel better she says ???
Shawn: I was raised in a strict religious family, and have since become and athiest, but I remember those teachings very well. I see no reason to disrespect you or your faith, but I do ask you to understand that I was told every sunday to believe in God, and Jesus Christ as my savior. If I did that, and only that, I would be saved. So if you genuinely believe in God your gender expression should have nothing to do with that faith, and there is no reason why you can't keep that faith forever. And likewise, a church or religion should have nothing to do with your maintaining that faith.
Love, Kathy.
Well, we have somewhat similar backgrounds including state of origin, religion, want to be a male sometimes, even feel shame at my intimate desires of wanting to be more femme. I havent moved forward with these thoughts yet, am trying to let them calm before taking drastic action. I crossdressed when I was younger, and my mom reacted exactly like yours to me (family was not accepting at all), so when I grew up I separated myself from them. I do still miss my dad, brother, and sister, havent missed my mom much yet. Its very selfish of her to think that a pastor can "straighten" you out when you dont feel all that broken deep down. If she is encouraging you to take t and "man up" (Dear Jesus, I HATE that phrase) she doesnt really understand what it is to be a man, or even a woman for that matter. I personally am taking this slowly, and I would recommend the same to you. I feel like even if I woke up a woman tomorrow with everyone hunky dory with it, I would still have problems. Personally, it just sounds like she is pressuring you to be what she wants. Maybe you should tell her that it is driving a wedge between you. If she wants to force you into something, you might just end up having to do what I did. OMG, I am sooooo much happier today than I was with all that over my head. People have a taught notion of what it is to be a man, you MUST fit into their category or are rejected because they dont want to understand as it would force them to think without their learned shortcuts and stereotypes (I think that classifying someone is really just lazy thinking), it is OK to be a man who is effiminate. If during your process, you want to get rid of other male characteristics, that is ok too. Trust me though, t will not make you feel better (it made me feel insane, foggy, hyper, and not more than a little bipolar). I wouldnt do voice surgery, it is kinda fun to be able to do both voices (for me anyway). Also, personal advice, dont reject what you learned, but dont rely too heavily on it either. You are not the only one around here dealing with this particular struggle. What part of Texas BTW, I come from the deserts of the west, not a tolerable place geographically or sociologically. I respect the fact that a lot of people here get the oft missed point that religion and spirituality are 2 completely different things (even if a few are atheist, lol).
Two simple questions:
1) Do you believe in an all knowing, all powerfull God?
2) If yes, then why do you believe God makes mistakes?
(I'll pass on the Duck-Billed Platypus joke hanging out there ;D )
OK 3 questions, kinda - sorry
3) If God doesn't make mistakes then........?
Shawn,
I feel for you. I really do.
You've been taught a lot of things which are hurtful, brutal, demeaning and damaging. You have had your "salvation" held hostage by people who want something from you -- namely to be someone you may not be, to conform, to not make anyone uncomfortable, to not push unfamiliar boundaries. Before I continue, I want to acknowledge that the pain you feel is real, deep, and cannot be healed quickly. You have my deepest compassion.
But it's time for you to get out from under this needless oppression and live your life. I can't say it more plainly or sincerely. Shake that crap off. It is crap. You are being manipulated, plain and simple. That is why many people leave the church, and I get it. When that's what you know of religion, why the hell would you put up with it?
Fortunately, I know faith in a different way.
I am employed in a Lutheran church and married to a pastor. I study the Bible as part of my job and have received extensive training in theology and the music of the church (while also deciding that being a pastor wasn't right for me). What you are being taught is not about God, it's about humanity -- more specifically: control. Unfortunately, there are large swaths of Christianity which are not very Christ-like. They are run by those who abuse the power that parishioners -- seekers -- grant to them. These communities often sell hatred, judgment and intolerance, while holding up the name of one who was all about love, acceptance and radical inclusivity. (Who did Jesus love, accept and eat with? Everyone, and with a special emphasis on those who the society would marginalize and dismiss.)
But let's set that aside. This isn't even about Jesus. It's about how you have been taught to understand God -- namely, as some all-powerful sky-guy who will judge you harshly, rule ferociously, and cast you out of his (and it's always "HIS") presence should you cross him.
It's just not true, and it's hardly the story the Bible tells about God (at least not when taken in its totality; yes, there are verses and stories which tell it that way). And frankly, I don't know why ANYONE would believe in such a God. It's a horrible way to be a human -- with this implied threat of banishment hanging over your entire life. To many people, the Bible is the only source of information about God. To me, it's just a starting place, and some of it simply must be understood metaphorically, or according to the context in which it was written, or even completely set aside as archaic. (Shellfish, anyone?)
You've also been taught that certain people understand God better than you and have some sort of authority over you because of that. To anyone who tells you they know something about YOUR salvation, you should say, "Get behind me, Satan." Your relationship with God is yours and yours alone. Tell those who would judge you to f**k off. (Use nicer words than that.)
But rather than rail on here, I would just ask that you consider this:
Everything you have, God (or whatever you want to call it) gave you. In fact, that's about the only thing we can actually say with some certainty about our existence. It's now pretty well-established (by twins-raised-apart studies) that most of what you got, you got at birth in either your DNA or your circumstance. Even the latter ("nurture" if you will) is largely determined by things beyond your control such as where you were born, into what socioeconomic situation, and with what type of adult and peer influences.
All of this was present at your birth. Repeat that to yourself a few times. Believe it. It's true and deeply freeing.
God (or the Universe or whatever you want to call it) created you just as you are. Take that and run with it. Love yourself. Accept yourself. Be yourself. Even the God of Christianity as seen through the Gospels wants that for you more than just about anything else.
Your internal gender feelings are beyond your control. They were part of your life from conception. They cannot be denied. They will not go away. For people who see the world through the lens of religion, this is a sure sign that God was at work within you before you were born. For others, replace the word "God" with "genetics" or "DNA" or "conditions in the womb" or "destiny". It's all the same stuff just with different names.
My advice to you, Shawn, is to release your fears about "salvation", forge your own personal relationship with God (or not), and get on with the business of being who you were created to be. If that means becoming a woman, so be it.
Lora
http://translora.wordpress.com (http://translora.wordpress.com)
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on September 18, 2012, 01:43:50 PM
well the problem also for me is, I have not always felt bad about having a male body, and yet often more than not i do feel bad about having a male body.
Here are the things that I know are true about me and will never change regardless:
I hate facial hair
I hate body hair
I wish i looked even softer and smoother
I like womens clothes
I like painting my nails and my face
I am very emotional and moody
I like sensitive and soft and things of a feminine nature
My only male side would be:
My voice which I considered voice surgery but would loose my ability to go from low to high in voice impressions.
The fact that I still dream as male and did grow up mostly like a boy and for the longest time did accept myself as male, even though the female side was getting stronger as i got older.
My mom just sent me some money and wants me to go back to Texas, forget about all LGBT people and pretend I am a conservative again and go back in the closet essentially and reject what i learned. She wants to send me to a pastor who she things will straighten me out.
A male pastor of course, she feels I need a male role model to fix me. :embarrassed:
I sometimes still feel male but it wavers all day long back and forth this power struggle for my identity. I dream of what I could become but I also fear what I may loose.
My mom even wants me to take testosterone and try to man up as it were and then i would feel better she says ???
I don't know too much about the kind of Christianity practiced in the Bible-belt, except that it doesn't seem to have much to do with the kind I learned at school. But I do know this, from personal experience ...
You can stuff yourself full of testosterone and it won't make a damn bit of difference.
You can have all the therapy you like and the only thing it can ever do for you - if it's conducted with any kind of professional integrity - is to help you know yourself, accept yourself and deal with your situation. It cannot change you, and no reputable practitioner will tell you it can.
You said it yourself: 'Here are the things that I know are true about me and will never change' ...
So, that being the case, you have to accept that and decide how to proceed. But that decision has to be about what's best for you, not for anyone else.
I am personally unable to believe in God, but I respect those who do. What I cannot respect, however, are people who use the idea of God, of heaven and of hell as tools with which to frighten and oppress others. That's not true religion, just a sick power trip.
If God exists, if God is all-knowing, if God loves mankind why would that God want you to be unhappy? Why would God want you to be untrue to yourself? Why would that God have given mankind the ability to transition from one sex to another?
You are who you are. And if God made you that way there must have been a purpose. So live our ife according to that purpose ... and don't for one second be held back by Bible belt bigotry, ignorance and shame.
Thanks for all your input everyone, it has been most helpful. I will take everything with a grain of salt, add some pepper and give it a little kick of spice.
;)
I will stay here in San Francisco still and continue on my journey and keep going to my gid psych and hopefully in time I can understand myself better and make good choices.