I have not taken estrogen yet, but was put on blockers , since then I have noticed shrinkage. I feel i'm getting smaller and feet shrunk, now I am not one of them people who are delusional and just think ohh wow magical T blockers doing everything. I can't be certain about my height yet, until I get someone else to measure me , but my height is shorter on the family home chart , so I will just have to wait and see about that. But I have shorter feet now, and this I am very very certain, I always had massive feet, and I mean size 14 (m) , always had problems buying shoes e.c.t. I had a inkling they looked a bit smaller but was like whatever that's not possible , so I tried on size 9 (m) shoes and I fit.... I was very sceptical. I got home and I tried on my size 14 shoes, and I can feel empty space from top of shoe to my feet. My feet have shrunk , I want to know why , if its possible from HRT if not then i'm kinda scared that it might be medical, even tho I have not had any pain in feet area.
After 18 months of full hrt, my feet haven't changed one iota. Not saying it isn't possible and I know some people swear their feet shrank but in my case they stayed the same.
18 years on HRT and T blockers, zero shrinkage. Sounds like you may disappear very soon!
Well thats the thing , I am 100% certain it has happened , I was very big footed and have been wearing my shoes forever and yet they are just so big compared to my foot. I feel like just taking a pic , so you could see how remarkable the change is. I am not sure if it is from hrt, but I have only noticed since getting blockers , again it could just be something medical.
It's pretty common. My girlfriend went quite a few sizes down. I haven't really checked, but I think I have had a bit of shrinkage, too (good dose of anti-androgen and low dose of oestrogen at the moment for me). I think it was Alainaluvsu who shrank by a very significant amount.
It's no guarantee from HRT, and I don't know why it happens just a little, or a ton, or not at all, depending on people. But it certainly is a very real possibility.
Don't worry. Just be happy about it.
I am over-joyed by it , and wish it would happen to my big hands, but I just thought is the possibility of a big change from T blockers or from something else that could be bad , I guess I'll just ask my doctor**
also observation is that I have alot more baggy skin underneath the heel of the foot sorta like stretch marks. I guess i'll talk to a doctor and if it isn't medical I will upload pics later on if people are curious to see if this is possible, if not I guess I will just have my own conclusion , I might give people some hope. I guess i will take a photo of my foot and the size 14 shoe and then , a pic of my foot and the size 9 shoe , a pic of the size 9 shoe and 14 shoe together , and the bottom of my foot, I honestly am 99.9% sure that my feet shrunk.
Quote from: sally1990 on October 02, 2012, 06:31:37 AM
also observation is that I have alot more baggy skin underneath the heel of the foot sorta like stretch marks. I guess i'll talk to a doctor and if it isn't medical I will upload pics later on if people are curious to see if this is possible, if not I guess I will just have my own conclusion , I might give people some hope. I guess i will take a photo of my foot and the size 14 shoe and then , a pic of my foot and the size 9 shoe , a pic of the size 9 shoe and 14 shoe together , and the bottom of my foot, I honestly am 99.9% sure that my feet shrunk.
Do you think the reduction is due to bone shrinkage (unlikely) or fluid and muscle reduction? I could imagine foot muscle atrophy and a reduction in blood pressure contributing to a shrinkage.
I went from a size 8.5 / 9 men's to a size 8 women's ... which is about 2-3 or so sizes in a year. I think my feet are still shrinking because the size 8 women's shoes I bought a couple months ago are getting looser and they have more space in front of the toes. I just bought some size 8s the other day and I honestly think I could've gone to a 7.5 in them.
I did shrink in height, indisputably so. I was 5'5.75" pre hrt, now I'm 5'3.5". I used to be taller than my sister (she is 5'5") now I'm shorter.
I think it comes from fat / muscle loss and ligament shrinkage. Plus my natural posture changed so that my pelvic area has a slight tilt to it when I'm standing as straight as I comfortably can. I have no doubt in my mind that these things are from hrt.
thanks for the replies , and Alainaluvsu <3 your clips of your transition very inspiring.
Maybe seemingly by an inch or 2 ^.^ My feet looked nasty and wider pre-hrt, they look a little more tiny and feminine. Rather pudgy rather than wide. This happened pretty fast.
Quote from: Tesla on October 02, 2012, 06:08:47 AM
18 years on HRT and T blockers, zero shrinkage.
Yea same here, 12 years on HRT and anti androgens I haven't noticed any changes in my height which is exactely the same.
Quote from: Isabelle on October 02, 2012, 06:06:08 AM
After 18 months of full hrt, my feet haven't changed one iota. Not saying it isn't possible and I know some people swear their feet shrank but in my case they stayed the same.
My feet have actually got a little wider since being on HRT. Before HRT I could fit into a size 6 court shoe, now I struggle with a size 7.
I have shrunk some, not height but shoe size, hands, waist I attributed it to the T blocker (spiro) it's a diuretic so with the water loss I just figured that was it, they were very suttle. I have small feet as a guy size 7.5 and ladies size 9.5 and they were snug, now size 9 and they fit perfect. large gloves used to fit kinda loose now medium gloves are perfect and my waist is down more then my hips I was a strait line or just fat 38 waist and hips now it's 36B- 32 - 36
I can wear smaller shoes now, basically from the width of my foot going down. I used to wear size 12 shoes and now fit comfortably into size 9. Other than that my foot length is basically 1 cm longer than my sisters and she wears size 7. So if my feet keep losing width I should be able to fit in shoes about that size.
I really wasn't expecting it at all until I looked down at my feet and they didnt look the same xD
From what I've read (and I'm not a dr) there seems to only be small few medical conditions, other than weight lose, that cause feet to shrink, and they all sound pretty serious (like syphilis) . As we age, our feet get larger (after we've finished "growing" I mean). Spironolactone is known to cause swelling in the feet as a side effect but, that's the opposite of the claim here. So to be honest I find the whole shrinking feet thing to be a mystery. I can't find any articles that report the phenomenon. I think an actual study is needed because HRT is known to increase your body fat percentage not decrease it, as would be required for fats in the feet to shrink. I'm not saying people don't loose weight or change shape on HRT because we clearly do. In my case I got smaller but my weight seems to have remained about the same, things just seem to have moved around.
Plausible causes of a decrease in shoe size (according to non-expert me):
-Muscle mass loss
-Change in the shape of the foot's arc
-Unexpected bone size decrease, mostly in younger patients
-Toe bones get closer to each other because there's less muscle in between
-The cartillage/stuff/space between bones reduces, so bones get closer to each other
-Fat redistribution
-Thinning of the skin (though that's gotta be a very minor factor xD)
But seriously, there's nothing at all to worry about. Don't even look for conditions.
No shrinking here
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.travelpod.com%2Ftw_slides%2Fta00%2Fa6f%2F1d2%2Fim-shrinking-chair-at-the-magnolia-grille-manteo.jpg&hash=3b18846deb9c4c23cad4af39e0ef02725da4e4de)
Its the furniture thats getting bigger
I guess it varies a lot but, personally, 5 mos on a low dose hasn't had any effect at all on my overall size aside from breast growth. Actually it would be hard for me to shrink much at all anyway lol. I started out pretty small.
I actually shrunk height wise, lost one inch in height, I have no idea why maybe its hormones.
However, my shoe size went down from womens size 12 to a 11 and the 11's are starting slip off easily. I mean if i could I could kick my leg out and watch the shoe fly off lol. But I need to point out I have lost a lot of weight in past couple of years and still loosing so I am assuming weight loss/muscle mass loss is a major factor for the shoe size.
I was reading this thread thinking no way. But then I realised that my shoes were a bit loose. I've been meaning to get a new pair for ages so went to my local shoe shop and I have gone from an UK eight to a seven.
I've always worn an eight since for ever, sometimes struggling to get in those so they've definitely shrunk and that's five weeks HRT!
If I look at it as testosterone causing the fleshy part of the feet to swell and expand, then the absence of this hormone causing a reversal of this makes more sense. Therefore, F2M may have a reverse experience.
Hypogonadism also causes height loss, which. I'm sure most of us have hypogonadism to some degree :)
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on October 03, 2012, 07:36:06 AM
Hypogonadism also causes height loss, which. I'm sure most of us have hypogonadism to some degree :)
I never found a disorder to be so sexy
Quote from: Rita on October 03, 2012, 10:29:36 AM
I never found a disorder to be so sexy
And helpful!!!
I may of had a similar condition, the doctor said I was probably going to grow up as a midget.
Lucky for me that didn't happen, but I still only reached 5'6.
Reading this as a 6'6" giant with size 12.5 M feet makes me feel there is hope in this world for me after all. I know YMMV, but from the power of deduction, it seems that people that lost muscle mass and weight had better results. My legs and feet have always been VERY muscular... Like, I can stand on my toes whilst having 400-500 lbs on my back (Why I did this in GYM class, I will never know.) Maybe, after all, my monkey-hand feet will have a fighting chance!
Hoping that I am one of the lucky ones that has some results in this aspect! Thank you!
When I transitioned in 1982, my feet were UK size 8.5 which made getting shoes very difficult and I very often had to resort to forcing my feet into size 8 (if I could get them). Back then most women's shoes in the shops only went up to size 7. Then, about 15 years ago I realised I was getting into size 7 with no problem.
Now my shoes are mainly size 7 with few sized 6.5 and my feet are looking very small compared to how they were. Now whether it's shrinkage due to hormones, or the fact that I was having to wear shoes which were too tight, who can tell. All I know is I am very happy being able to go into any shop and try on shoes off the shelf.
Before you ask, no, my feet are not deformed as a result.
Caroline
Are your hands miraculously shrinking too?
Sorry to spoil your 'shrinking feet' happiness but feet grow wider/larger with age.
Because you're walking and standing on them which makes your feet spread etc.
Most middle aged ciswomen and men wear at least one shoesize larger after the age of approx 20.
Quote from: Dahlia on October 09, 2012, 01:18:44 PM
Are your hands miraculously shrinking too?
Sorry to spoil your 'shrinking feet' happiness but feet grow wider/larger with age.
Because you're walking and standing on them which makes your feet spread etc.
Most middle aged ciswomen and men wear at least one shoesize larger after the age of approx 20.
I think what's happening is people sort of letting go of the rule of measuring up (as guys do). I used to briefly work at payless and you won't believe how many guys who I help try out for size 8 feet (or less) who walk out the door with 10's and 11's. And height is another matter altogether, many men lie about their height or overestimate it *shrugs*.
I've seen women do the upset too, coming in with size 8 feet and stuffing their feet into shoes that are too small. I mean, what's the point? I would want to be comfortable in my shoes.
I swear the moment I stopped taking E in pill form my shoulders got broader. I even have pictures to track progress and they looked much smaller before, but it's something you just can't keep track of properly because there is no accurate way to measure and it's possibly psychological but feels very real.
Quote from: 8888 on October 09, 2012, 03:01:49 PM
I swear the moment I stopped taking E in pill form my shoulders got broader. I even have pictures to track progress and they looked much smaller before, but it's something you just can't keep track of properly because there is no accurate way to measure and it's possibly psychological but feels very real.
The human body changes shape every 7 years or so....mtf bodies change too, post op or not.
The sad news is, is that the shoulders will grow broader with age/fat redustribution whether a mtf is on E or not, post op or not, muscle shrinkage or not.
I'm a bit of an arch-skeptic in regard to shrinking (and just about everything else. You're all a figment of my imagination..) and take anecdotal evidence with a pinch of salt. It's possible much of this 'shrinkage' is due to the placebo effect or wishful measuring.
Clavicle bones don't shrink and expand due to hormones levels. But it's possible that the deltoids have picked up a little extra muscle mass. But if this occurred instantly after stopping E then this is most likely down to a change of perception of your body. Like an anorexic viewing themselves as fat.
Quote from: Dahlia on October 09, 2012, 01:18:44 PM
Are your hands miraculously shrinking too?
Sorry to spoil your 'shrinking feet' happiness but feet grow wider/larger with age.
Because you're walking and standing on them which makes your feet spread etc.
Most middle aged ciswomen and men wear at least one shoesize larger after the age of approx 20.
I won't comment on the hands because I have nothing to measure them against.
However, I have been wearing a size 8 for 45 years, so I think I know my size.
They have got no larger or smaller in that time.
When I bought new shoes I would have to try on all the styles in 8 to find one that didn't pinch.
Suddenly I'm a 7. I tried many 7's on in the shop because I didn't believe it either but they all fitted comfortably.
I have a lot of women's shoes in 8. The boots always fitted nice but all the rest stayed as fantasy shoes because although I could force them on they pinched like crap. All are now comfortable.
As to height I won't comment, although I know I've always been the same height until recently as when I got my RAF id card at 16 and I'm 50% sure I've lost an inch I think there's a possibility of error.
Of course you won't believe it until it happens to you. I wonder if the loss could be a test for whether the HRT is working.
Quote from: sandrauk on October 09, 2012, 04:08:05 PM
Of course you won't believe it until it happens to you. I wonder if the loss could be a test for whether the HRT is working.
I may have shrunk in height by 1/4" in 20 years. A number of years before transition, I always tried to find the smallest and snuggest male shoe that would fit. Possibly, my feet already shrunk by the time I started HRT. I don't see more than negligible difference in foot size after taking HRT. Height is lost due to age. HRT definitely worked. I couldn't pass as male after 2 or 3 years of HRT.
Actual foot shrinkage could be due to a myriad number of possibilities. There are shrinking and growing feet on non-TG forums.
Losing 3 inches of height in less than a year, both measured by the same doctor, is something that I've seen on this forum, without any reason to doubt it.
Buying shoes her size in the first months of HRT only to find out they're just way too large to wear at all after a few more months of HRT is something my girlfriend lived. They can't have stretched - they were in a drawer, waiting to be worn.
There are logical reasons for shrinkage to happen on HRT. Feet are a bit more tricky, but the most obvious one when it comes to height is the curvature of the spine and the angle of the hip bone that change.
Quote from: A on October 09, 2012, 06:26:10 PM
Losing 3 inches of height in less than a year, both measured by the same doctor, is something that I've seen on this forum, without any reason to doubt it.
Buying shoes her size in the first months of HRT only to find out they're just way too large to wear at all after a few more months of HRT is something my girlfriend lived. They can't have stretched - they were in a drawer, waiting to be worn.
There are logical reasons for shrinkage to happen on HRT. Feet are a bit more tricky, but the most obvious one when it comes to height is the curvature of the spine and the angle of the hip bone that change.
I think it's possible for your height to decrease, I mean that happens with or without HRT, and HRT is actually a symptom of "low T".
feet though? ehhh a little iffy.
Well, it could be that muscle mass loss would reduce width. As for height, who knows, maybe for some reason the foot flattens (the bones would position themselves in a more flat pattern). For both of those, maybe skin and fat changes play a role too.
As for length... there's probably a better reason, but the only things I see now are that toe bones would grow farther apart, taking the room left by muscle, and making for a shorter foot because of the increased angle; also, I'm not sure why they would, but maybe the stuff in between each bone shrinks; finally, I noticed on a chart that there's a good centimetre in the big toe between the actual tip and the tip of the bone - maybe there's some room for explanation there.
And for patients in their 20s, there remains the seemingly improbable possibility of bones themselves shrinking, since they might not all have fused.
Really, it's hard to explain and it would take more of an expert than I, but with the number of reports, even if my hypotheses are entirely wrong, there just has to be some logical reason for it, and it's a true phenomenon I think we shouldn't deny. But seriously, considering how (especially) shaky my explanations are, I'd really like to know what the real reasons are.
Quote from: A on October 09, 2012, 07:50:14 PM
Well, it could be that muscle mass loss would reduce width. As for height, who knows, maybe for some reason the foot flattens (the bones would position themselves in a more flat pattern). For both of those, maybe skin and fat changes play a role too.
As for length... there's probably a better reason, but the only things I see now are that toe bones would grow farther apart, taking the room left by muscle, and making for a shorter foot because of the increased angle; also, I'm not sure why they would, but maybe the stuff in between each bone shrinks; finally, I noticed on a chart that there's a good centimetre in the big toe between the actual tip and the tip of the bone - maybe there's some room for explanation there.
And for patients in their 20s, there remains the seemingly improbable possibility of bones themselves shrinking, since they might not all have fused.
Really, it's hard to explain and it would take more of an expert than I, but with the number of reports, even if my hypotheses are entirely wrong, there just has to be some logical reason for it, and it's a true phenomenon I think we shouldn't deny. But seriously, considering how (especially) shaky my explanations are, I'd really like to know what the real reasons are.
well, I wouldn't discount wishful thinking. I think a serious study conducted by medical professionals and measuring by objective people would settle this once and for all :3
Yes, wishful thinking can probably explain a proportion of cases. But I've read too many cases of people who wouldn't have any interest in lying and had pretty objective proof, like my girlfriend's fitting shoes that became way too big after a while in a drawer. I think Padma had a story like that, too.
As for a scientific study... Yeah, of course, it would, but I doubt it'll happen anytime soon. I mean, studies on transsexualism itself and its causes aren't many, so studying the size of feet in transsexuals sounds pretty far. It might eventually happen in a global study to determine exactly what HRT does in transsexuals, measuring all sorts of things in the body, but that sounds far away, and uncertain. ^^'
I shrank 1 1/2 cm in height after 25 years on HRT, I went from 175 1/2 cm to 174 cm.
BUT my feet increased in size going from size 41 to 42, as happens to most, if not all middle aged people, cismen and ciswomen AND mtf.
I consider these 'shrinking feet and bodyheight while on HRT' (for a relatively short time...) as 'wishful thinking'/a case of wild imagination too....
The worst thing about this is giving tall, big footed, freshly started MTF false hope.
Like when a person hangs their hopes on HRT shrinking their hands, for example. I need to take some more sugar pills.
I get no benefit out of lying to people. The fact is my feet have shrunk , I have always been size 14 (m) and I'm now size 9 (m)*** , Maybe it is a medical condition , I don't believe in anything like magic or faith from a source , I have said that I'm not delusional and can't guarantee that it is from HRT , I was just asking around as a minority within a minority of people who are transitioning have said that it can be possible. My acknowledgement of this happening started on T blockers. As to people who think this is false hope, no its not , its facts that happened and I raised my doubts if it is something else medically. If people want to get hope from what I have said then its their interpretation of my own facts , and its their right , trying to censor what people say because it didn't pertain to you is just really interesting. You have the right to your skepticism but unless you have all the facts then don't pretend you are a medical professional who has studied HRT and the effects on our bones and have come up with a conclusion that meets your thesis.
Quote from: sally1990 on October 10, 2012, 10:17:15 AM
I get no benefit out of lying to people. The fact is my feet have shrunk , I have always been size 14 (m) and I'm now size 9 (m)*** , Maybe it is a medical condition , I don't believe in anything like magic or faith from a source , I have said that I'm not delusional and can't guarantee that it is from HRT , I was just asking around as a minority within a minority of people who are transitioning have said that it can be possible. My acknowledgement of this happening started on T blockers. As to people who think this is false hope, no its not , its facts that happened and I raised my doubts if it is something else medically. If people want to get hope from what I have said then its their interpretation of my own facts , and its their right , trying to censor what people say because it didn't pertain to you is just really interesting. You have the right to your skepticism but unless you have all the facts then don't pretend you are a medical professional who has studied HRT and the effects on our bones and have come up with a conclusion that meets your thesis.
I've never heard of 'shrinking feet' except for Chinese Lotusfeet.
I know quite a few MTF in real life and I've NEVER, EVER heard them telling about their 'shrinking feet' let alone seeing them in 3d going from size Y to size X. You bet they would if so because THAT would make them very, very happy.
And I've NEVER, EVER heard of a medical condition causing your feet to shrink
without going limp.
My attention span has definitely shrunk on hrt. :eusa_eh:
Ya know, there's a reason shrinking stuff isn't in the official list of effects from HRT: it's not in everyone, it's not proven and it's not understood. But still, with the number of testimonies, I find it pretty heavy to call it all lies.
So because you have not heard of something you assume its false.... right. Now you've read it**, I put my own personal experience out there on a forum , whatever you take from it is up to you. Don't believe in my false hope of facts and life experience and my doubts on whether it is from T blockers, it really doesn't bother me, what you are doing tho is trying to make it** seem like its impossible and therefore make me out to be a liar, censorship on a forum and making jokes out of something would be all fair if you actually had facts. Try to be a bit more open minded and not act like a spokesperson for people who want knowledge on things that maybe possible for hopes of better enjoyment out of their life. For an e.g people have said HRT doesn't effect your voice, people have said it does, I am open minded and believe if it happens great, if it doesn't then I will do my best to work on it a lot more. But I'm not going to reply to peoples forums implying it can't happen cause I'v never heard of other 'real life MTF' transsexuals who said it's impossible.
Quote from: sally1990 on October 10, 2012, 11:08:30 AM
So because you have not heard of something you assume its false.... right. Now you've heard it, I put my own personal experience out there on a forum
That's correct, I've never
heard about
or seen this in real life, but I
read this kind of things
online only.
Quite a difference.
Going down by half a size doesn't sound unusual. Going down from 14 to 9 is quite extraordinary. We're talking over 4 centimeters in length. I can only hazard a guess that the T blockers are possibly interacting with a pre-existing medical condition. Did your feet look swollen before? I'd have it checked out by a qualified physician. Do you have any before and after photos?
Tried fixing the sentence for you , as it seems to be more important then my statement I put forward to you. Only difference here =) is that you are fixed on something so tiny your thought process is quite pessimistic where as all I wanted was to express excitement , as it was a big deal to me , the thought of trying to find female shoes in size 14 (m) was a hassling issue, I would of course just had to deal with it, if this experience didn't happen to me.
I'm confused a tad on what that random post was suppose to explain , I do not have dry mouth, I do not have sleepiness as its 2:30 am in the morning , I am from middle to high class Australia and get proper nutrition , I have never been in trouble with the law, I am far from a psychopath, I am studying psychology at university. But portraying my life experience must be mental right, cause its not like I showed photos and had my family /friends all see the difference and was just as amazed. =) I don't think I'll be responding to this post anymore, you are like the kid in school that I would sigh at because you always felt the attention to look good in front of their peers and make statements with complete and utter ignorance, where as I always felt honesty and an open mind was a much better way at treating people.
Quote from: Dahlia on October 10, 2012, 11:15:24 AM
That's correct, I've never heard about or seen this in real life, but I read this kind of things online only.
Quite a difference.
I've just googled 'shrinking feet' to try to find something scientifical about your extraordinary feet shrinkage. Some medical condition perhaps..
Google for yourself and you won't find anything special....except this very thread ;D
I find it childish to think people will believe this kind of fairytales....and yet again: creating false hopes isn't a very nice thing to do to the naieve ones who do believe this fairytale.
Quote from: sally1990 on October 10, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
I'm confused a tad on what that random post was suppose to explain , I do not have dry mouth, I do not have sleepiness as its 2:30 am in the morning , I am from middle to high class Australia and get proper nutrition , I have never been in trouble with the law, I am far from a psychopath, I am studying psychology at university. But portraying my life experience must be mental right, cause its not like I showed photos and had my family /friends all see the difference and was just as amazed. =) I don't think I'll be responding to this post anymore, you are like the kid in school that I would sigh at because you always felt the attention to look good in front of their peers and make statements with complete and utter ignorance, where as I always felt honesty and an open mind was a much better way at treating people.
It's not that serious for you to personally attack her just because she holds a view point different than yours.
And I agree with Dahlia, a lot of does read like wishful thinking. *shrugs*
I know I can wear a size smaller than I could a couple of months ago. But, that is because I like shoes for how they look, not how they feel. So, many of my shoes cause my toes to go numb. Meaning they can go into smaller shoes without hurting. At least my shoes are cute! ;D
All I know is I wear a smaller womens size ( 8 ) now than I wore in a mans size (8.5-9). Don't believe that if you want... IDC honestly. Why would anybody lie about it or wishfully think it? If my wishful thinking worked, I'd have no more facial hair :P
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on October 10, 2012, 06:38:54 PM
All I know is I wear a smaller womens size (8) now than I wore in a mans size (8.5-9). Don't believe that if you want... IDC honestly. Why would anybody lie about it or wishfully think it? If my wishful thinking worked, I'd have no more facial hair :P
I will see you facial hair and raise you my male sex organs. If wishful thinking was that powerful I would not have to have SRS ;D ;D
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 10, 2012, 08:30:40 PM
I will see you facial hair and raise you my male sex organs. If wishful thinking was that powerful I would not have to have SRS ;D ;D
LOL, this is totally not what I meant by wishful thinking. It's not that wishful thinking causes things to change, but that it causes one to *think* things have changed, when in fact they haven't.
Quote from: Ave on October 10, 2012, 08:49:40 PM
LOL, this is totally not what I meant by wishful thinking. It's not that wishful thinking causes things to change, but that it causes one to *think* things have changed, when in fact they haven't.
It would be cool if it worked though.
I don't see what anyoe would have to gain from lying about feet shrinking, just because the medical community hasn't researched this yet it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, until this has been researched the best approach would surely be to take people on face value.
After seeing this argument rage a few times i'd made my mind up that before I start HRT I will be going into a shoe shop & asking them to measure my feet, then if I notice i'm buying smaller shoes after a year or two i'll get my feet re-measured (I plan to keep a photo diary over the years & this will be included)
Maybe if a few other people did this we could eventualy put this fire breathing dragon to bed
Good idea.
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 10, 2012, 09:38:02 PM
Good idea.
I think photographic evidence & profesional measuring are the only way this issue will be resolved.
I'm certainly not going to hold my breath for medical research into this
I was 5' 6" and now I am 5' 5 and a half inches. I have been to the hospital serveral times recently and it had been verified every time.
I was extremely skeptical of the foot shrinking thing. I (like several people) could and can not figure out HOW that would happen, even though almost every trans woman of our acquaintance reported it. I assumed it was at least partly wishful thinking.
Nevertheless... For ten years my wife had always been about a shoe size bigger than I am; I couldn't borrow her shoes, and vice versa. After about a year on HRT, she noticed that she *could* fit into my shoes. And the size 10 heels she bought back at the beginning of transition, and wore only once or twice, were too big. So were the combat boots she'd had professionally fitted and worn for years, which fit perfectly until then.
I still don't get it. But I'm finally convinced something happened, now that we spent all that money on shoes that don't fit anymore. ;) Luckily, it seems to have slowed or stopped, as she's been a stable size for the past two years or so.
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 10, 2012, 08:56:01 PM
It would be cool if it worked though.
I'd have a maserati ^^
Back to the original poster. A 4 centimeters (15%) reduction in foot length cannot be attributed to simple wishful thinking. If that happened to me, I'd be pretty terrified and would be running to my GP to have it checked out. If it was verified, I wouldn't discount a Roswell type examination of my body to explain the phenomenon. I'd hazard a guess that a 15% reduction in foot length, induced by anti-androgens, is without precedent. Unless we're talking massive swelling of the feet that has self-corrected, attributed to poor circulation and fluid build-up.
Quote from: Jayne on October 10, 2012, 09:33:36 PM
I don't see what anyoe would have to gain from lying about feet shrinking
Lying is the wrong word... people can see what they wanna see sometimes and not the reality :)
Not that I have any opinion other than saying 0 change for me personally.
Quote from: pretty on October 11, 2012, 09:42:10 AM
Lying is the wrong word... people can see what they wanna see sometimes and not the reality :)
You're right, that was a poor choice of words.
It was late, I was tired & I went for a quick/lazy answer.
I should have typed that if people say they are fitting into smaller sizes then calling it wishful thinking seems a bit short sighted, if you find you're buying shoes 1 or 2 sizes smaller every time you go shoe shopping this isn't wishful thinking as the cold hard proof is right before your eyes.
I've been wearing size 11 mens shoes most of my life but from time to time i've tried on size 11's & my feet have been slopping around in them so i've got a 10 in that style.
If someone posted that they'd just bought a single pair a size smaller then i'd suggest that it's the design of the shoe but when people post that they consistently buy this smaller size then obviously something has changed.
I've got a pair of size 9 womens boots that I adore, however, it took a few months of stretching them before they were comfortable & I only wear them when sitting around the house because I can only walk in them for short periods.
I do have open toed shoes in size 9 but don't count them as my toes are free to poke out, as far as i'm concerned i'm size 10 right now.
Considering the discomfort I endured when I first wore these boots out I just can't concieve someone cramming their feet into shoes a size or two smaller, the pain/discomfort would make walking or standing a chore.
It would be a dream come true if my feet shrank just enough to get into size 9's comfortably but as with everything else in my life I expect the worst outcome then anything other than that makes me happy
hmmm idk, I still don't think people are realizing that men often wear shoes too big for them, while women wear shoes too small for them, are people sure it's the feet shrinking or that you're just able to stand wearing smaller shoes?
Quote from: Ave on October 11, 2012, 11:17:53 AM
hmmm idk, I still don't think people are realizing that men often wear shoes too big for them, while women wear shoes too small for them, are people sure it's the feet shrinking or that you're just able to stand wearing smaller shoes?
When I was trying to present male I used to wear shoes that were way too big in an attempt to make my feet larger. Now, for my everyday shoes I wear ones that fit properly. It is only when I want to wear cute little shoes that I go for ones that are too small.
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 11, 2012, 11:25:28 AM
When I was trying to present male I used to wear shoes that were way too big in an attempt to make my feet larger. Now, for my everyday shoes I wear ones that fit properly. It is only when I want to wear cute little shoes that I go for ones that are too small.
EXACTLY!!! LOL, I fit into size 6 mens and they fit perfect and my feet are the same size as many of these guys who brag about their size 11 shoes...lol whatever ::)
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 11, 2012, 11:25:28 AM
When I was trying to present male I used to wear shoes that were way too big in an attempt to make my feet larger. Now, for my everyday shoes I wear ones that fit properly. It is only when I want to wear cute little shoes that I go for ones that are too small.
He he, I did the exact opposite. I tried to find the smallest non-gender specific shoe possible that wouldn't hurt. When DMs were all the rage in the 90s, it was a kind of nirvana shoe era for me.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsgrumbleoutloud.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F01%2Fdr1.jpeg%3Fw%3D100&hash=953b66dfc6bfaf70c8887187f434613d96696f19)
Today, given the choice of two pairs of women's shoes, one slightly pinching my toes and the other slightly loose, I choose the smaller every time.
Quote from: Tesla on October 11, 2012, 11:35:10 AM
Today, given the choice of two pairs of women's shoes, one slightly pinching my toes and the other slightly loose, I choose the smaller every time.
I would choose the pair that looked the cutest. I just love cute shoes!
I think one of the things that has helped me fit into smaller shoes is the fact that I grew up rock climbing, and would have to cram my feet into the smallest climbing shoes possible (it helps with the grip).
I don't discount peoples experiences that their feet have shrunk. Everyone is different, and everyones body reacts in different ways. Just because modern science can't explain it, does not mean it isn't true. I do hope it is ture because it is easier to find really cute shoes in smaller sizes.
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 11, 2012, 11:41:19 AM
Just because modern science can't explain it, does not mean it isn't true.
It doesn't make sense to me because bone grow *regardless* of gender with age.
So unless we have some benjamin buttons here...
Quote from: Ave on October 11, 2012, 11:45:18 AM
So unless we have some benjamin buttons here...
That is actually my nickname at work. Since I started hrt, I have lost about 6 years in my appearance! ;D
Quote from: Ave on October 11, 2012, 11:17:53 AM
hmmm idk, I still don't think people are realizing that men often wear shoes too big for them, while women wear shoes too small for them, are people sure it's the feet shrinking or that you're just able to stand wearing smaller shoes?
What about cases of the very same shoes becoming way too large without being worn ?
Quote from: Ave on October 11, 2012, 11:30:29 AM
EXACTLY!!! LOL, I fit into size 6 mens and they fit perfect and my feet are the same size as many of these guys who brag about their size 11 shoes...lol whatever ::)
Men's 6 exist? I could never find something smaller than 7 (and even then, size 7's are rare), and that's the excuse I used when I bought my first female shoes and I didn't have the slightest credibility as a girl. Even on the size chart at the store, the men's sizes stop at 7. Do you wear children's shoes, or is it just that most stores don't order sizes smaller than 7 ?
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 11, 2012, 11:41:19 AM
I would choose the pair that looked the cutest. I just love cute shoes!
I think one of the things that has helped me fit into smaller shoes is the fact that I grew up rock climbing, and would have to cram my feet into the smallest climbing shoes possible (it helps with the grip).
Smaller shoes always look cuter, don't they.
Quote
I don't discount peoples experiences that their feet have shrunk. Everyone is different, and everyones body reacts in different ways. Just because modern science can't explain it, does not mean it isn't true. I do hope it is ture because it is easier to find really cute shoes in smaller sizes.
If I set up a website that encouraged anyone to admit that they started experiencing A (anything random) after they started doing B (anything random), you can bet that there will be an overwhelming many who experienced exactly that. What you'll get less of is folk stating A didn't happen after they started doing B. You'll get a positive bias. It's human nature. In the population as a whole, the number experiencing A after B may be meaningless, negligible or considered a random blip.
Quote from: A on October 11, 2012, 11:53:13 AM
What about cases of the very same shoes becoming way too large without being worn ?Men's 6 exist? I could never find something smaller than 7 (and even then, size 7's are rare), and that's the excuse I used when I bought my first female shoes and I didn't have the slightest credibility as a girl. Even on the size chart at the store, the men's sizes stop at 7. Do you wear children's shoes, or is it just that most stores don't order sizes smaller than 7 ?
Did you just try to read me?
*gets out cannon*
Lol, but seriously I wear either childrens shoes that that look pretty standard/no any designs or cornverse or if I like the shoe enough, I'll buy a womans shoe as long as it's andro/butch and doesn't have any girly designs and looks like a boys shoe also.
It is odd, since I have the same size hands/feet as my 5'0 ft FTM friend :(.
Some people do have to get children's things... when I was in the closet presenting male I had to shop in the boy's department to get clothes that fit :P but it is nothing for guys to be ashamed of everyone just comes in different sizes.
Quote from: pretty on October 11, 2012, 12:15:59 PM
Some people do have to get children's things... when I was in the closet presenting male I had to shop in the boy's department to get clothes that fit :P but it is nothing for guys to be ashamed of everyone just comes in different sizes.
Luckily I'm reasonably tall (5'7.5), so I'm spared the shame of shopping for kids pants :D! I fit more appropriately into kids tops since I have a small frame, but XS in stores or XS in uniqlo or other asian clothing stores works great for me.
Quote from: Ave on October 11, 2012, 12:19:54 PM
Luckily I'm reasonably tall (5'7.5), so I'm spared the shame of shopping for kids pants :D! I fit more appropriately into kids tops since I have a small frame, but XS in stores or XS in uniqlo or other asian clothing stores works great for me.
Jealous! They don't have a Uniqlo near me...
Oh god come to think of it I just moved to the coast ;D maybe will go up to NY sometime.
I'm only 5'5 but want to wear size 9 when I know I am really a 9.5 :embarrassed: lol I think having clown feet (for my height) is worse than shopping in the children's depts.
Quote from: pretty on October 11, 2012, 12:25:24 PM
Jealous! They don't have a Uniqlo near me...
Oh god come to think of it I just moved to the coast ;D maybe will go up to NY sometime.
I'm only 5'5 but want to wear size 9 when I know I am really a 9.5 :embarrassed: lol I think having clown feet (for my height) is worse than shopping in the children's depts.
I think as long you stay under 10 it won't look terribly unusual for your height.
Quote from: Ave on October 11, 2012, 12:49:47 PM
I think as long you stay under 10 it won't look terribly unusual for your height.
I guess not... lol so long as they don't get any bigger ::)
Sometimes it's easy to feel bad even when you are not that big, I guess you just shouldn't go comparing... even I can make myself feel like an ogre sometimes :P
Quote from: pretty on October 11, 2012, 01:15:31 PM
I guess not... lol so long as they don't get any bigger ::)
Sometimes it's easy to feel bad even when you are not that big, I guess you just shouldn't go comparing... even I can make myself feel like an ogre sometimes :P
you look like a regular thirteen year old girl, you should NOT worry lmao.
Quote from: Ave on October 11, 2012, 02:29:16 PM
you look like a regular thirteen year old girl, you should NOT worry lmao.
Lol I wish! Actually it is fun to pretend when ya didn't get to enjoy it the first time around. I can pull off 16 at least :P so now I know kinda what FTMs feel like when people think they're underage.
Wouldn't it be interesting reading about FTM who's feet and hands growing miraculously several sizes while being on testo?
Haven't heard about this one yet ;-)
I haven't really heard of shrinking hands... Well, them looking smaller because of muscle reduction, yes, but that's pretty much all.
Though foot growth, that would actually be more plausible than foot shrinkage. Bones shrinking is a pretty surprising, seemingly impossible phenomenon, but growth isn't. As a simple example, men's facial bones masculinise - which is growth - considerably due to testosterone during adult age.
And even some amount of "hand growth" would be absolutely possible - and even expected - from testosterone. I won't put this as rock-hard proof, but no matter the amount of physical work they do, the muscular character, the width, of men's hands that I've seen, have always been roughly proportional to their age.
Really, FTMs are a bad example to compare here. The changes we're discussing for MTFs are much less likely, much harder to explain, than what could happen in FTMs, who get much more significant effects all over from their HRT, in average.
Quote from: Dahlia on October 12, 2012, 09:21:27 AM
Wouldn't it be interesting reading about FTM who's feet and hands growing miraculously several sizes while being on testo?
Haven't heard about this one yet ;-)
Here's one. I've gone from a mens' size 5 shoe to a mens' 7.5 in 10 months on T. My gloves are starting to get tight, so I'm pretty sure my hands have gotten bigger too. Obviously, there's no way bones can grow like that, especially at age 37. My feet have gotten thicker and more muscular, but they've also flattened and spread out as I've gained weight. I had to ditch the arch support insoles I used to wear because they started to feel like a big rock in the middle of my shoe.
I would assume that everything would go back to my pre-HRT size if I had to stop T for some reason. I don't see why it wouldn't work the same for an MTF going on anti-androgens.
As a side note, I'm fascinated by how heated this subject always gets. It's like "I didn't personally get that change on HRT, so it's not possible for anyone else's body to change in that way and don't you dare claim it is." Everyone's body is different and it's going to react to hormones differently.
I started off small and scrawny, so T is making me heavier and thicker. Other FTMs started off overweight and have lost weight on T. Seems kinda ridiculous for me to claim that "T makes you eat too much. There's no possible way you could lose weight on it" just because my experience was different.
Quote from: driven on October 12, 2012, 05:38:48 PM
Here's one. I've gone from a mens' size 5 shoe to a mens' 7.5 in 10 months on T. My gloves are starting to get tight, so I'm pretty sure my hands have gotten bigger too. Obviously, there's no way bones can grow like that, especially at age 37. My feet have gotten thicker and more muscular, but they've also flattened and spread out as I've gained weight. I had to ditch the arch support insoles I used to wear because they started to feel like a big rock in the middle of my shoe.
I would assume that everything would go back to my pre-HRT size if I had to stop T for some reason. I don't see why it wouldn't work the same for an MTF going on anti-androgens.
As a side note, I'm fascinated by how heated this subject always gets. It's like "I didn't personally get that change on HRT, so it's not possible for anyone else's body to change in that way and don't you dare claim it is." Everyone's body is different and it's going to react to hormones differently.
I started off small and scrawny, so T is making me heavier and thicker. Other FTMs started off overweight and have lost weight on T. Seems kinda ridiculous for me to claim that "T makes you eat too much. There's no possible way you could lose weight on it" just because my experience was different.
that point just doesn't make sense...if someone said HRT made them sprout wings, are we supposed to believe them too?
Well, now that you mention it, I have noticed a few feathers here and there...
Quote from: Ave on October 13, 2012, 08:19:55 AM
that point just doesn't make sense...if someone said HRT made them sprout wings, are we supposed to believe them too?
But why would anybody lie about that? Many, many people report height loss and shoe size loss. I didn't expect to either, but I did.
I noticed mine are smaller too & it's definitely not my imagination.
Quote from: driven on October 12, 2012, 05:38:48 PM
I would assume that everything would go back to my pre-HRT size if I had to stop T for some reason.
Really.................?!?!?
*gasp*
Quote from: driven on October 12, 2012, 05:38:48 PM
Here's one. I've gone from a mens' size 5 shoe to a mens' 7.5 in 10 months on T.
My feet have gotten thicker and more muscular, but they've also flattened and spread out as I've gained weight.
If driven has increased shoe size due to increased muscle on T then surely if someone starts E who has muscular feet then muscle reduction can possibly explain foot size reducing.
Not everyone has lots of muscle & this may account for some people experiencing this whilst others get little or no reduction.
It seemsd the old axiom of "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" gets conveniently ignored whenever this topic arises
Quote from: Jayne on October 13, 2012, 12:15:12 PM
If driven has increased shoe size due to increased muscle on T then surely if someone starts E who has muscular feet then muscle reduction can possibly explain foot size reducing.
Not everyone has lots of muscle & this may account for some people experiencing this whilst others get little or no reduction.
It seemsd the old axiom of "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" gets conveniently ignored whenever this topic arises
going up more than a shoe size would have to be some damn dramatic muscle growth. And also, pregnant women go up a shoe size a lot since their feet tend to swell, but let's not forget that they are going through dramatic weight shfits/changes in their body.
So if you're shrinking multiple sizes, then you must be going through even more dramatic muscle/weight shifts than a pregnant woman (not likely).
Quote from: Jayne on October 13, 2012, 12:15:12 PM
If driven has increased shoe size due to increased muscle on T then surely if someone starts E who has muscular feet then muscle reduction can possibly explain foot size reducing.
Not everyone has lots of muscle & this may account for some people experiencing this whilst others get little or no reduction.
That's what I theorised. I started HRT scrawny with little muscle.
Quote from: Tesla on October 03, 2012, 06:11:01 AM
If I look at it as testosterone causing the fleshy part of the feet to swell and expand, then the absence of this hormone causing a reversal of this makes more sense. Therefore, F2M may have a reverse experience.
The expansion could probably be mostly in width.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on October 13, 2012, 08:36:03 AM
But why would anybody lie about that? Many, many people report height loss and shoe size loss. I didn't expect to either, but I did.
This is what I don't understand about the reaction to this subject. So we're all just lying to anonymous people on the internet about our hands/feet changing size? Of all the things to lie about, my foot size wouldn't be it.
I wish I was lying because it's getting kind of expensive buying new clothes and growing out of them 6 months later. Just dropped another $80 at Kohl's yesterday because the weather changed and I discovered that I have absolutely zero long pants that I can even pull up all the way, let alone button. But maybe that's impossible too and it's just all in my head. :P
I get quite perplexed how some people refuse to accept accounts of shrinking feet, just because someone hasn't seen something with their own eyes it doesn't mean it doesn't happen/exist.
If the naysayers are correct that not having seen something personaly means it doesn't exist then I deny the existence of Australia, i've never been there & don't know anyone who has.
Any footage of Australia is obviously a mix of clever filming & special effects.
Whilst i'm at it i've also never been into space to witness this claim that the earth is round & not flat, once again I say it must be special effects
Quote from: Jayne on October 14, 2012, 01:00:21 PM
I get quite perplexed how some people refuse to accept accounts of shrinking feet, just because someone hasn't seen something with their own eyes it doesn't mean it doesn't happen/exist.
If the naysayers are correct that not having seen something personaly means it doesn't exist then I deny the existence of Australia, i've never been there & don't know anyone who has.
Any footage of Australia is obviously a mix of clever filming & special effects.
Whilst i'm at it i've also never been into space to witness this claim that the earth is round & not flat, once again I say it must be special effects
lol ok whatever. The little difference is, that if someone brings me studies on shrinking I could accept it, for now it's just wishful thinking :3
"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
Quote from: Jayne on October 14, 2012, 01:11:00 PM
"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
Smartest saying ever. I think I'll use it in the future instead of failing in an attempt to express myself properly.
Quote from: Jayne on October 14, 2012, 01:11:00 PM
"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
hmm,
Can a certain scientist here answer on who the burden of proof would be in this discussion? :3
This discussion is destined to go round & round in circles & i've got better things to do with my time.
I will simply state that i've tried crammjing my feet into shoes 1 size too small & I could barely walk, I cannot concieve of someones wishfull thinking blocking this pain & discomfort of tight shoes.
Unless someone can prove that the people who say their feet have shrank are victims of wishfull thinking then i'll continue believing that these people have nothing to gain from such fabrications.
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on October 02, 2012, 09:40:55 AMYea same here, 12 years on HRT and anti androgens I haven't noticed any changes in my height which is exactely the same.
You said a few months ago that you'd been on anti-androgens for 14 years, and in the very beginning of the before/after thread, around this time last year, you also said 12 years.
Combined with this and your constant claims that you've alternately gotten nothing or masculinized further from HRT, I'm not convinced you're telling the whole truth about your experiences.
Ave: The thing is, it goes both ways. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of presence.
Personally, I think it's important to know that some people, for some reason, be they right or wrong in their testimonies, experienced foot shrinkage, and that it's possible that it could happen to you. Because if they don't know about that or disbelieve it, people could do like my girlfriend and buy shoes in advance, only to feel frustration later because they don't fit anymore.
So I believe it's important to know all of the most commonly alledged effects from HRT and take them into consideration. Of course, it must be clear in people's head what are alledged effects and what are proven effects: it's normal to totally expect breast growth, but foot shrinkage, you shouldn't bet on that, for example.
If we were gonna include shrinking on an official list of effects from HRT, then yes, we'd need proof. But we're just saying it's not impossible, and you can't disprove that with doubts.
Doubting that it can happen and doubting that it cannot happen... none of those is a doubt superior to the other. In other words, no "side" can prove the other wrong. After all, we're talking opinions and anecdotal evidence.
In a way, it's like saying that there cannot be extra-terrestrials if we haven't seen them, or that there must be extra-terrestrials because there is no proof that they can't exist. No side can be right.
In short, we should stop fighting because none of us can be right. People should just see and make their opinion about it, because there's hardly a better course of action.
I went shopping with a friend yesterday. We went to this great, big shoe store. It was so cool to see all those great shoes. Anyway, I tried on quite a few types of shoes. My size ranged from 8 1/2 to 9 1/2 depending on the make, style, material, everything.
btw, if you have a DSW around you, they have great shoes in so many styles, and so many sizes.
The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim, as with claims of deities, fairies, pink unicorns, demons, ESP, homeopathic remedies, ghkHKHJFGHJKG etc. It's not my responsibility to disprove it. Until someone shows corroborated evidence of the claim, it remains unproven and just speculation, only. I can only remain agnostic.
Quote from: Tesla on October 15, 2012, 05:50:21 PM
The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim, as with claims of deities, fairies, pink unicorns, demons, ESP, homeopathic remedies, ghkHKHJFGHJKG etc. It's not my responsibility to disprove it. Until someone shows corroborated evidence of the claim, it remains unproven and just speculation, only. I can only remain agnostic.
Quoted for truth.