Identification (http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/10/19/d1.cr.genderidentity.1019.p1.php?section=cityregion)
Transgender proof plan draws critics
By Jeff Wright
The Register-Guard
Published: Wednesday, October 19, 2005
Requiring transgender people to show documentation in order to use public bathrooms and showers would create more problems than it would solve, a half-dozen people told the Eugene Human Rights Commission on Tuesday night.
Such documentation is discriminatory "and smacks of Big Brother," said Judy Moseley, a member of the Lane County Human Rights Committee. "Who's going to ask for the documentation, and who's it going to be asked of?"
I guess if we go into the shower we would have to wear the document around our neck and keep it in plastic to prevent the ink from running.
There was a better solution to the document thing though, let me think.... where was it.... hmmmmmm.... it had something to do with getting a number tattooed on your forearm, and, oh yes you had to wear a pretty yellow star so that everyone knew who you were... darn if I can remember where that was.
Chat later,
Steph
The Black Triangle was used to identify "socially unacceptable" women, according to the Nazis. Lesbians were included in this classification.
Now, Lesbians have reclaimed the Black Triangle as our symbol in defiance of repression and discrimination as Gay men have reclaimed the Pink Triangle.
An update.
http://www.dailyemerald.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/10/31/4365da2e91baa
Don't let restrooms flush gender protection
Editorial
By Emerald editorial board
October 31, 2005
The city of Eugene's attempt to add protections for transgender people to its anti-discrimination ordinance is truly admirable, but discussing the finer points of the change has created unnecessary delays. We must stop mincing words, deal with this problem rationally and instate the protections.
Surely, little harm can come simply from adding the classification "gender identity" to a list of identifying features that should not be discriminated against
As with all things political the devil is in the details. You can get a lot of people to agree in principal but when you get into the details you have to deal with diametrically opposed believe systems. That's were you run into problems. It seems on the surface to be a simple proposal but when you start entering in the realm of not in my backyard that's when otherwise "liberally" minded people start drawing lines in the sand.
This is the trouble I have with most so called liberal people and conservatives as well. They can talk a fine game in princilple but when it comes to applying those principles watch them all run for cover. In my life I have found that few people ever mean what they really say. In Oregan you got the law, getting the application is yet another battle that has to be fought. The key is in having the battle won before it is fought. Sung Su.
Cassie
At least it's comforting to know that some communities are making an effort to recognize that the transgendered are people to. I live in an area that is so anti-everything especially when it comes to those who are gay or lesbian.
The few times I venture out I always try to make sure I will not have to use a restroom facility. But you never know. Trouble is you only have two choices and both of them may be wrong
joanna
women have the privacy of stall...men have stalls & urinals with no privacy..some cultures require men to seek privacy...why not "restrooms' with stalls, period...must be the same oregon politicians who came up withthe "20 MPH at all hours/times " in school zones, wht a waste of politician hours & taxpayers money on that 1...roger
Some places gender specific bathrooms are beginning to disappear. In many elementary schools many teachers bathrooms are for women/men/wheel chairs for one rest room.
One school had two restrooms for teachers. One was for women and the other for women/men/wheel chairs.
Quotedocumentation in order to use public bathrooms and showers would create more problems than it would solve
A true statement in my opinion. It is why I have never believed in a political solution to the bathroom issue. It focuses on fear of the unknown rather then actually addressing a problem in any real significant way.
As to bathrooms, common sense tells one that the only documentation that works is proper and consistant presentation, and if not present, All the documentation in the world will do nothing but create the very scene Laws would attempt to eliminate. If you "pass" then there is no issue, if you don't, it will just cause problems. And I don't want to get into the appearance issues of passing, as there is a heck of a lot of more important things involved in that, even if those who see you know or suspect you were not born female. It is a matter of being, or acting, and most people will recognize the difference regardless of appearance and respect those that are.
As to showers, thats going to far for those who are not post. Personally, I would be highly offended by the presence of a "thing" in the shower with me, even on a fully documented pre-op, and as a pre-op, I would not be so incourteous as to enforce the view of mine on other women who may not appreciate it, even if it is "supposed" to be non funtional. having had an Orchie is NOT a valid argument in all cases that one is not able to function as a sexual male, and don't anyone argue that point with me as I know better. I do not believe identity laws should apply to nudity areas even if restrooms are approved.
Such things can only be addressed by education as you can't legislate the feelings and emotions of people. Meanwhile, the bathroom issue continues to degrade the entire rights movement by focusing attention on sexual issues rather then basic needs of life. We are a long way just yet from that kind of tolerance from the majority of mainstream.
Around here, the trend is to focus on protections and for the most part avoid such issues and have the same legal rights as the gay community, right down to medical and insurance issues as well as employment, housing and financial concerns state wide, and a lot of that is due to keeping the bathroom on a lower priority and as much as possible, out of political discussions.
I want my rights, but not at the expense of the rights of others.
Terri
Very well stated Terri,
I agree 100% with you. I love the way you put things into perspective.
QuoteI want my rights, but not at the expense of the rights of others.
sums it up rather well.
Chat later,
Steph
OK, I hope I do not go too far off topic on this, but what the hell?
It is on this point that I become angry with the medical community. They create the standards of care, which says, that an individual must go thru RLT in order to be following their rules.
They know that this includes using the restroom of the new gender. So, where are the therapists, doctors, and psychiatrists when this kind of discussion is breached in the public domain?
They could make things a lot easier, I would guess, by stating plainly and simply, that it is a required medical directive that has TG people use the restroom of their chosen gender. If several members of the mental health community showed up at a hearing in Eugene, and foisted their considerable educational credentials for all to see, maybe things would get a little easier for their clients? So where are they, hmmm?
That's what I thought.....
I know part of the problem and that falls with those who present as one gender but so completely act as their birth gender. I went to a party that my therapist had last year and all of the gender groups were invited so there were crossdressers, transsexuals, drag queens/kings...the gamut.
I had a horrible time and most of it was because of dealing with men who happened to be wearing dresses. No effort to effect a feminine voice at all. The walked, talked, and acted like men. They just happened to have on dresses, wigs, and makeup. Apparently they do go out in public like this and to be honest, I would not want to share a bathroom with them at all because they made me uneasy. Would I turn them into the police? No, not at all unless they made unwanted advances.
Then there are the other stories I come across. One involved a transsexual woman who transitioned in place. OK, no big deal and I did that too. She was allowed to use the women's restroom. OK, very cool, I get to do that too even though it is just one specific bathroom until I am post op. She speaks in her old male voice and will use the stalls while standing up and talking to others around her. Yes, the women there were very uneasy and did not want to share that bathroom. I do not blame them.
The one thing about these particular people in the gender spectrum is that I have found them to be a minority of TG people. However, who do you think will stand out in the mind of someone? Me, who goes in and goes out without doing much else but using the facilities but when engaged in conversation can speak mostly within a female range of voice and carry myself in a feminine manner or the one who only bothers to dress the part and not much else?
That is why we have these issues. Everyone in the TG spectrum has to get it through their heads that we are in this together, no matter what anyone else may say. What we do and how we do it does impact everyone else in at least a small way. That is not to say that we have to stick to some rigid idea of how a man or woman should act but to exercise some common sense. I wear mostly jeans and shirts, it is rare that I have a dress on at all.
/rant
Flame suit on. :D
You need no flame suit Lost in Time. You've said nothing but the truth, and that truth is one of the major reasons for the divisions in the TG community. Politically, it gains us more to avoid the bathroom and simply go for anti discrimination in employment, housing and presence, waiting for such legislation when times are better to present it, but when we fight on such platforms, the element you are talking about whines about being left out and that nobody is doing anything for them, the fact they can obtain and hold a job or not be kicked out of a house or apartment simply slides by them unnoticed if they don't get the bathroom.
I don't know the solution to this, other then personal restraint and things like Thundra said, a little help from the medical people, but even with that it is a little hard for the public to absorb when we have so many bad actors in our midst who will do what they want just because they can, with no regard to the political and emotional harm they cause and therfore actually tear down the gains made by education, as they clearly do not project what the professional people would be saying about the "need" to be recognized as women but we can't simply desert these people as to do so is to apply the principle of discrimination ourselves and we have enough of that. It is a problem even in the gay community, where tolerance is preached, but recognition and understanding is withheld from some of thier major subgroups and they have the same arguments about not supporting these subgroups in order to enhance thier political standing.
I used to support addressing these problems from within and educating ourselves to establish a group mentality of image, restraint and political conciousness here at Susans and all that happened was I got labled Elietist, Facist and discriminatory thus starting a lot of angry arguments along with being called a seperatist eventually leading to being banned from this system until Susan granted amnesty for those who could come back and not be a further problem. Notice how I stay pretty much clear of political activisim around here these days even in the activism forum that was specifically created at one point in all that for me to rant in and thus keep my "crap" off the rest of the system?
Education is key in our fight for equality, but it has to extend to ourselves, not just the public and we each have to realize how our individual actions affect the whole. A simple thing, responsibility toward the cause, but there are those who used to tell me to shut up and leave people alone about it so they could discuss "REAL" TG issues and problems? Heaven forbid we make any attempt to define what a TG person is that is consistant with what we say it is to provide the consistancy that is required for public understanding.
Anyway, I'm off of it, I learned my lesson and I don't want to get started on an uphill roll again .... unless it can be done without finger pointing and anger with intelligent thught and restraint for the betterment of our own understanding of ourselves and our environment.
Terri
Acceptance in the restroom cannot be forced. When we can live openly at work and at home, the acceptance will come as society gets to know who we are. The few remaining hard core haters will be marginalized by society just as the racist are now.
beth
I see that the restroom issue got heads up here too. Rebecca and I were not discussing restrooms when we talked about documentation and the documentation was just mentioned as a way of getting gender identity into our ordinance. We asked for other ways, and this has to do with showers and not restrooms. Let me see now, there is no other ordinance that doesn't have its excepttions to showers and lockerrooms in the US or Cananda. Leigh, you should know, you were there when Portland put theres into existence. So now we are tagged along with Nazi Germany cause someone doesnt read or listen. I have been through this with the HRC and with the trans. community who wants coed showers. They have told me so. It will not happen in the US, not in my time anyway. So why is this takeing so long, ask the rest of the community.
Sheila
23.01.070 Discrimination in Places of Public Accommodation Prohibited
(Amended by Ordinance No. 175158, effective January 15, 2001.)
A. It shall be unlawful to discriminate in public accommodations on the basis of an individual's race, religion, color, sex, national origin, marital status, age if the individual is 18 years of age or older, or disability, by committing any of the acts made unlawful under the provisions of ORS 659.037, 659.425, or ORS 30.670 to 30.685.
B. In addition, it shall be unlawful in public accommodations to discriminate on the basis of an individual's sexual orientation, gender identity, source of income or familial status, by committing against any such individual any of the acts already made unlawful under ORS 659.037 or ORS 30.670 to 30.685 when committed against the categories of persons listed therein.
23.01.040 Exceptions. -
. The prohibitions in this Chapter against discriminating on the basis of gender identity do not prohibit:
1. Health or athletic clubs or other entities that operate gender-specific facilities involving public nudity such as showers and locker rooms, from requiring an individual to document their gender or transitional status. Such documentation can include but is not limited to a court order, letter from a physician, birth certificate, passport, or driver's license.
2. Otherwise valid employer dress codes or policies, so long as the employer provides, on a case-by-case basis, for reasonable accommodation based on the health and safety needs of persons protected on the basis of gender identity.
3. The above exceptions do not excuse a failure to provide reasonable and appropriate accommodations permitting all persons access to restrooms consistent with their expressed gender
<< I have been through this with the HRC and with the trans. community who wants coed showers. They have told me so. It will not happen in the US, not in my time anyway. So why is this takeing so long, ask the rest of the community.
Sheila >>
Whoa! ARE you saying that EVERYONE in the TG community wants co-ed showers? Exactly what kind of showers are we talking about here, and is that specifically spelled out in any resolution that has been drafted?
While I am in support of folx that practice their gender-xxxx attitude, I am NOT in support of anyone with a male genitalia prancing around in front of me. Their self-expression stops at my nose. That includes bars and parades.
[edit] edited out due to inappropriate use of language see Site Rule #10 Shelley[/edit]
Now, if by public showers we are talking about individual cubicles for washing and dressing, then I have no problem with pre-op or non-op women using the facility labelled for women, anymore than I would object to the same person using a shared restroom facility with stalls. I DO expect those same people to SIT DOWN when in a women's restroom, regardless of their plumbing.
If a person cannot be discrete, and fit into their new gender role, than maybe they ought to use the men's restroom.
I do not believe in discriminating against anyone regarding their expression of gender, which is a social role. I do however draw the line at sexually demonstrative displays. Let's all stop confusing sex and gender. A person choosing to live in the opposite gender role, to their sexual anatomy does not offend me. A person, that INSISTS on a public display of said non-conformity is not, IMNSHO, interested in discussing a gender role problem. They are grinding a different axe, and I do not support them.
If this is the situation that caused a clamoring for personal ID, isn't the point moot? Shouldn't the public display of the male anatomy in a woman's restroom facility automatically warrant arrest, regardless of ID?
What the hell is the HRC thinking for $%&&% sake?
I have to agree with Thundra on this. Sometimes we can be our own worst enemy. Although we may be allowed into womens only showers and washrooms with proper documentation, I'm of the view that unless you are post op for showers and can pass without problem in the other areas then I believe that we should stay out of those areas.
Sure we may be exercising our rights but to what end. I don't care how great you look with cloths on, but I'm afraid that any one of us would be hard pressed to convince any GG that you were female with a penus waving at them, even with a truck load of documents and certificates.
I myself pass very well, but when I go to the fitness centre, I always use the "Family Changing Area" as they have individual change and shower stalls. I'm just being discrete and respectful just as I would expect others would be towards me.
We need allies, not hystrical women.
Just my thoughts,
Steph
IMO anyone who wants to expose male genitals in a female only situation is not transsexual but perverted male.
If this means no shower facilities are available, work out at home or find a place with seperate showers, a business cannot be expected to build facilities for every possible person that may want to use them. I am preop and I would never want to be in any nude situation, all female,all male,all trans or all dogs with cold noses.
beth
I see everyone got what I was trying to say. Thank you. Even Leigh put up the Portland, Or. ordinance with the exceptions. If you want to read what some of our people are trying to push read our ordinance in Eugene, Or. It is on the web, this is what they are trying to push down others throats. It is 4.635 1 C. This is the paragraph in question. We are only asking for something that can work for everyone when it comes to public nudity in the showers.
Sheila
Actually Sheila, I don't think that I do.
I may be having a blond moment here, but are you trying to say that any trans person should have the right to shower using the facilities they identify with, as long as they have the proper documentation? ID Card, etc... regardless of their transitional status, i.e. pre-op, post op.
Stephanie, I'm sorry but I'm not really good with words. What the proposed ordinance wants to say is that a trans person could shower without any documentation, all they have to say is they are transgender or they don't even have to say that as that is documenting the trans person. What I want is that the trans person should use some finesse in the showers, like if you were MtoF and you had breast but were preop that maybe you should wear your shorts into the showers or bathing suit bottoms. Same with FtoM after top surgery. I want all people to feel comfortable going to a gym or if it is a shelter that people will feel comfortable going into it. Does that make any more sense?
Sheila
Hello Sheila,
OK now I understand. BUT I can't agree. There is no way on gods green earth that you will convince any GG that you are a woman going into a shower wearing shorts, panties, bathing suit bottoms, duck tape or any other technique for hiding the penis of a pre-op MtF. And how are you going to hide the breasts and pubic area of a pre-op FtM, a bikini would be a dead give away. For myself a REAL life test is being able to pass and live your life as a normal female would, and being accepted in that role by anyone who you would come into contact with. You/we have to be realistic, this is not a perfect world and it never will be, no matter how much legislation, documentation, letters, and everything else that you may have backing you up.
Quotea trans person could shower without any documentation, all they have to say is they are transgender or they don't even have to say that as that is documenting the trans person
I can see where all the pervs in this world would love and support this. Here I am MrClicktoseenakedladiesintheshower.com showering away with my bathing suit bottoms on and all I have to say is that I'm OK cause I'm a transsexual, and I don't need proof, cause that would be labeling me.
Not for me, although I am a woman, I have to respect nat woman and the inherent and ingrained fears that they have learned about males over the centuries. To ignore this would be to ignore womanhood, the thing we strive to achieve.
Hmmmmm Just my thoughts,
Steph
The key wording in the Portland ordinance is: their gender or transitional status. Just because a drivers license has an F on it does not mean that you are anatomically female. This lets the facility ask if you are post If you ain't you ain't taking a shower.
I would never support any legislation that gives admittance to any Health or athletic clubs or other entities that operate gender-specific facilities involving public nudity such as showers and locker rooms, that gave free rein to a person claiming they were T whatever! Again the key words here are public nudity.
Provide post op documentation and I would not say a word.
I had more respect for women and myself to ever consider doing something that stupid.
Leigh
Quote from: Leigh on November 12, 2005, 12:00:17 AM
The key wording in the Portland ordinance is: their gender or transitional status. Just because a drivers license has an F on it does not mean that you are anatomically female. This lets the facility ask if you are post If you ain't you ain't taking a shower.
I would never support any legislation that gives admittance to any Health or athletic clubs or other entities that operate gender-specific facilities involving public nudity such as showers and locker rooms, that gave free rein to a person claiming they were T whatever! Again the key words here are public nudity.
Provide post op documentation and I would not say a word.
I had more respect for women and myself to ever consider doing something that stupid.
Leigh
I didn't think you would Leigh :) , I have to agree 100% with you. I must have misunderstood the intention of the ordinance and the entitlements of the facilities providing such services described. I was thinking in the back of my mind that it sounded a little outlandish when I first read it as I didn't see the part referring to quote:
QuoteThis lets the facility ask if you are post
Thanks again Leigh and Sheila :)
Chat later,
Steph
<< Again the key words here are public nudity. >>
Abso-tively!!!!
It isn't even really appropriate for strangers to dress/undress in front of others in a public situation, where everyone else is the same sex. I realize that there will always be exceptions, and I don't mean to sound like a prude. But if your going to be discrete, than please be as discrete as possible.
So, the public display of nudity in a situation where you are the opposite sex of everyone else is totally inappropriate IMNSHO!
Screw the documentation! If you pull that deal, you are a perp.
and you are goin' down! Bad boys, bad boys, what ya gonna do...
To all who have been talking with me on this. I wish you were all at the table with me. I agree with all that has been said. I mean it. What is going on down here and I have been alone on this for the last two years maybe three now. I'm up against some college kids who call themselves Gender queer. They think that there shouldn't be any documentation, like someone said here, tattoos on the wrist, that you could use any facility that you feel like useing because the poor can't get documentation let alone surgery. Some even feel that sometimes they feel male and sometimes they feel female. Now, all these people have been going to college and or have graduated with some sort of degree. I have a high school diploma and a degree in BS (bull sh--). I know what other ordinance around the country have and I do know what some of the ordinance in Canada and in other parts of the world. Most say exactly what all of you have said. When I stood up and my friend stood with me, by the way she was on the front page of our paper down here, I got slapped in the face by splitting up the trans community down here. I'm trying to make compromises down here with the HRC and also trying to make something pass through city council. Leigh, I have been working on this for a long time,since that time I met you down here 3 years ago. I'm getting frustrated as I have transitioned and really don't need any ordinance anymore and feel like giving up. I won't there are too many people who really need an ordinance. I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place and I really don't know where to go. No, I don't want the opposite gender in the shower. I'm trying to compromise with all. Go to Eugene, Oregon Human Rights Commission and look up gender identity and the proposed ordinance, then go to section 4.635 1 (c). This is what the gender queer's came up with.
Enough said by me.
Sheila
Shiela
Has L. B. been of any help?
It sounds like you are where I was a few years ago. Why put myself out there when all it does it make me a target for both sides?
Leigh
Hello Sheila,
Would it do any good for us to start a letter writing campaign, or has that been done to death. Or is there any other way that the TG community can help, acknowledging the distances most of us are from Oregon.
Steph
Letters can always help. The Address is
Eugene City Hall
777 Pearl st
Eugene, Or. 97401
www.eugene-or.gov that will get you their website it might also get you e-mail if you leave off the www. I don't know that.
Leigh, L.B. has helped a little but they are not listening to her as is older and put into place an ordinance that shouldn't have been put into place in the first place. Too much discrimination.
Sheila
Quote from: Sheila on November 13, 2005, 07:08:00 PM
but they are not listening to her as is older and put into place an ordinance that shouldn't have been put into place in the first place. Too much discrimination.
Who is saying that the ordinance here should not have been put into place and what discrimination?
Lincoln City (http://www.gayrightswatch.com/2005/11/lincoln-city-oregon-approves-equal.html)
Lincoln City, Oregon Approves Equal Rights Ordinance
Lincoln City officials unanimously approved an Equal Rights Ordinance - the first of its kind on the Oregon coast - in front of a full house audience at city hall Monday night. The ordinance provides legal recourse - enforced by the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) - for anyone subjected to discrimination based on race, religion, color, sex, marital status, national origin, age, disability, sexual orientation, and gender identity.
Is that just for employment or does it cover housing, accomodations services etc?
It is good that they have something either way.
beth
Quote from: melissa_girl on November 18, 2005, 12:01:42 PM
Oh, I just saw your link above your summary Leigh. ::)
About what I would expect from some who lives in the Couve :)
I missed the link too, but then I'm living in yuppieville so I have an excuse.
beth
QuoteWhy is it that only Oregonians refer to it as "the Couve"?
Probably the same reason Californicators refer to Oregonians as Oregoonians. Neighbor state rivalry. ;D
Cassie
Quote from: melissa_girl on November 18, 2005, 11:50:43 PM
Why is it that only Oregonians refer to it as "the Couve"?
Its the easiest way to differentiate you from the one in BC.
I took no offense at all. I knew you were just jealous cause we don't have sales tax.
Leigh
<<<<< Not at all. It goes to our schools. >>>>>
Schools? We don't need no stinkin' schools!!
I mean really, how much schooling does one need to work at Starducks....hmmm?
Oh, and by the way, I worked with someone from "the couv" and he and plenty of the folx that worked up there called it "the couv" even though they were from "the couv," so there!
And California natives? Shouldn't we call them islanders, as in don't you mean the future island state of Pacifica?
Quote from: Thundra on November 19, 2005, 08:52:21 AM
how much schooling does one need to work at Starducks....hmmm?
hmmm. All this time I thought it was Charbucks.
I guess I should call myself an ex Pacifica and now a transplanted Oregoonia who lives down from the Couv. I have never heard of all that, but then again, look where I came from.
Sheila
Roseburg (http://www.oregonnews.com/article/20051128/NEWS/51128029)
Should transgendered men be allowed to use women's restrooms?
QuoteSure, they may have had a surgery signifying them as the opposite sex, but mentally they are still male.
Education is the key, progress is slowed or halted when faced with such ignorance.
beth
Quotebut mentally they are still male.
Talk about total ignorance! Where do people get off talking about other people as if they know what is in their minds? This just takes total gaul. Who died and made them an all seeing all knowing god?
STILL MALE! That just makes me want to throttle this person and say you ignorant little slime ball. But, I probably wouldn't because I am too much of a lady,
mentallyCassie
Cassie, you didn't know bout all the men who have their genitals removed just so they can go into the womens room and play with themselves :icon_yikes:....... wait that isn't right. :eusa_doh:
beth
ROFLMAO
QuoteShould transgendered men be allowed to use women's restrooms?
As a transgendered man who uses the men's room, no. I don't think so. If you transition to male, you use the men's room.
Dennis
I don't know why they are complaining down in Roseburg. I go down there at least once every other month. I use the restroom all the time. I have even been told which one to use, of course it is the right one. I guess the restroom issue is a non-issue.
I really think they need to read some books, even the bible would be good. I don't think it talks about transgender people. I wonder if they had stalls in those days. I sure would like to see what the urinals looked like in Jesus's time. I wonder what they used to write on the bathroom walls? Gosh, toilet paper, no phone books or even a Sears and Robuck catalog. It must have been barbaric. Too much thinking for one night.
Sheila
http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/02/24/ed.col.hansen.0224.p1.php?section=opinion
Published: Friday, February 24, 2006
Gender identity is a term with which few people are familiar. It's an innocuous-sounding phrase with a rather shocking definition. The term is used by the Eugene Human Rights Commission to describe a person's view of his or her own sex, not simply one's sex at birth.
The commission says that, among other things, it includes transgenderists, transsexuals, cross-dressers, drag kings and queens, and even gender variants who may not identify with either sex.
Oh, by the way Leigh, I quit trying to get Gender Identity into the Eugene Ordinance back in December. I don't know what is going on and I don't even care. I'm a school bus driver and I hold a position on the Lane County HRC. What Eugene wants to do, doesn't include me. They wanted all or nothing and that is what the got, NOTHING.
Sheila
IMO "couv" is one of the nicer things that can be said about that city in SW Washington. Unless asked, mum's the word.
8)
Quote from: Sheila on February 25, 2006, 01:05:07 PM
They wanted all or nothing and
I am almost afraid to ask what the
ALL was, but I'm going to ask anyway although I have a pretty good idea.
Leigh
Posted at: February 26, 2006, 10:50:45 AM
http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/02/26/b1.ed.col.transgender.0226.p1.php?section=opinion
For lesbian, transgender son brings pride and worry
By Jennifer Meyer
For The Register-Guard
Published: Sunday, February 26, 2006
With all the controversy over human rights these days, it's time for me to get off of the sidelines and come out of the closet. Not as a lesbian this time (I've done that for decades), but as the mother of a transgender son.
Toby was 20 when she first explained to my partner Kate and me that she was questioning her gender. She wasn't sure of much, except that she could no longer be the boy we had raised and would appreciate it if we would use female pronouns when referring to her. This request had me stammering every time I talked about my child in third person.
thanks for that newspaper article link! 8)
I think that any one who uses a rest room specifically set a side for one gender only should behave like the gender assigned to that rest room and not embarrase any one in it. Restrooms with private stalls keep each individual privates private and there is no need to expose them in any other part of the restroom. Males and females who share restrooms, usually small one person restrooms such take care of their own personal hygene and be mindful of the personal hygene needs of the opposite sex. :icon_idea: :eusa_think:
Michelle, I agree with you on the restroom issue. Now, how about a Gym lockerr room and the shower, that is open for the public. Do you think that a person, who doesn't have to ID themselves as TG, should be able to use whatever shower or locker room for their enjoyment. I guess I'm a little old fashion here or maybe a little prudish, but I don't.
The article in the Oregon Register Guard about Tobi Hill-Meyer. Hir Mom wrote the article and I read it out of the newspaper. The night before, I heard Tobi tell a group of people that Ze does not claim to be either. And that Ze does now know what Ze is. Ze prefers these pronouns (I hope I got them right).
Now that Tobi and hir group couldn't get the coed shower into place as there was some people against it. They wrote to Human Rights Commission and asked them not to go forward with Gender Identity into the ordinance. The City Council would have accepted the ordinance change, without the coed showers. PFLAG was behind this group.
Sheila
There are some GENETIC women who, by bad luck at birth, have manish faces, lack of hair or manish bodies. If there is a law requiring documentation, how are some of these genetic women going to feel if someone at their club reports them to the club authorities and the club authorities then have to go up to that genetic woman and ask for "documentation" they are TS?
I agree with Steph on her point at the start of this thread. Like her, the first thing I thought of, regarding wearing of tags, was the yellow star and number that the Nazi's demanded. I can also see that, even wearing an ID, an M2F TS who acts manish and whips that thing around jovially would create an uncomfortable situation. As Terri-Gene said, it's sometimes better to choose other battles to fight rather than get the law entangled in bathroom/shower rights. Job descrimination can be far more treacherous to the transitioning TS than worrying about whether a health club allows M2F's in the female shower room.
Teri Anne
I'm not saying for anyone to get tattooed or anything like that. If you want to use the facilities, unless you want coed showers, for privacy. What are you going to do. I guess you can just go up and ask. I really never cared one way or the other. I do know that this is what it came down to. We needed language to specify.
I agree, that employment and housing are far more important. That is what I suggested and the group that was against me said no they wanted all or nothing.
I guess I'm not getting my point across very well. I'm against ID too. For you to bring up Nazi Germany is very demeaning to me. I guess this is why I lost Gender Identity in Eugene, Oregon. Even PFLAG did not want the ordinance and they had the chance to change it. This is why I quit this last December. This is why last week they decided against changing the ordinance. I guess others will have to transition like I did, no ordinance. I look mannish and got IDed when I used the Gym. I even got followed in and I noticed someone watching me while I was dressing.
Sheila
Sheila, I'm sure no one means anything "demeaning" - it was just an association (like those black ink blots that psychiatrists use in testing) that was conjured up in our minds. Any kind of ID, to many of us, seems kind of big government-ish. As you probably know, many liberal groups have fought national ID cards for just that reason. We were just discussing association things -- If someone said "money," I'd might say "movie star." I guess one could argue that I'm defaming movie stars as being overpaid but that would not be my intent.
I'm sorry that bad incident happened to you in the gym and I can now better understand why you wanted to help other TS's by this idea. I commend you in that effort and apologize if my post stirred up bad memories. In your posts, you have always shown to be a valiant warrior of the oppressed and I certainly thank you and commend your much-needed efforts.
Hugs, Teri Anne
In a facility where nudity does happen and can be seen by others, showers for example, why should someone with the wrong body parts be admitted and have use of the place? The correct answer is they shouldn't. Not if they are going to be nude and seen by others.
This is one place where there does need to be some exclusion.
Leigh