It seems I'm somewhat of a rebel when it comes to 'passing' - at least in the fairly stereotypical definition that exists here.
Let me start by saying I 'pass', I've not been misgendered in so long I forget the last time it happened. I'm fine in stores, in public and even in bathrooms. I've been asked for tampons often enough now that I carry a few around with me. I don't get funny looks and I certainly haven't heard any one making any odd comments.
So why am I a rebel? I refuse to do a whole bunch of things that are apparently 'necessary' for me to do in order to 'pass'. I've been told by other members here that I will require FFS in order to pass. Guess what? I have no interest in FFS. The apparently 'masculine' features I have are all present in all the other women in my family - and no one accuses them of being men. I may not be a stereotypical beauty, but I've blended into society as a woman.
There are whole threads dedicated to voice and how you have a voice that is pitched at a typical female level in order to 'pass'. I've done no work to change my voice and it does me just fine - I've been accused of being lazy because of this. Funny thing is, it's only people here that say my voice doesn't pass. People I know in real life all give it a pass, as do members of another chat room I'm a member of. None of whom have any reason to lie to me about it either. I don't get any funny looks or changes in attitude from random strangers when I use it in public either. I guess it's a case of 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it.' My therapist, who has extensive experience with trans people, has also commented on my voice, he gives it a pass too.
I've not really done anything to change how I move or other physical mannerisms - I've had no need, I've always moved like a female and had female mannerisms. This is something I previously got quite a lot of grief for - both from family/friends and strangers. My family and friends understand why now.
I transitioned to be me, the me I always knew was there, just hidden away. And in the bit over 2 years since I came out and started my transition, I feel I've done pretty well. On a day to day basis, I 'pass'. I'm never going to be stealth, I have too many old friends and my entire family still in my life, but friends I've made since I started transition, and who know my past, have commented that they could not imagine me ever being a man.
Hi Kelly. Feeling a bit down today, but am trying to remind myself that I have come a long way in a short time.
I have discovered that Genderqueer is an identity that I am comfortable with, so although I apparently pass well, it is not that important when you have discarded Gender as an unworkable concept.
I will use it to my advantage socially, but if the rest of society wants to play the silly game I really am not concerned.
Karen.
The mighty three some. Sorry Karen, Let me know if I can help I have an ear or two.
I also feel a bit shaken but not stirred about comments about passing.
I have a deep voice. I'm not changing it, I doubt that I can. I know many other women with deep voices, and to be honest when I lecture I need a voice that projects. I hate the soft spoken microphone voice. I speak and people listen. If they have confusion about my gender so what?
I will also never have FFS, goddess when you are as gorgeous as me, who could spoil it :laugh:
That is a joke but a serious one.
I have the honour to be friends with Kelly and Karen, Kelly and I go out to dinner more frequently than we do with Karen, she is in another state, but I have never ever noticed any 'stuff' from other people when we go out.
Do we pass?
I have to be totally and completely honest here as it is fundamental to my life, my well being and how I perceive myself in the Universe.
I don't give a damn
I'm me. I walk and I talk and I'm me.
Kelly is a good friend and a fine looking woman who fits into society and works in society as the woman she is.
There is an empathise on how well 'we' pass. The easiest way to overcome it is very easy. Ignore it.
Excuse me - when was the last time you heard a cis woman worry about passing as female?
We get too precious.
Sorry Kelly,
I wanted that rant for a while.
Quote from: Cindy James on October 15, 2012, 04:18:07 AM
Sorry Kelly,
I wanted that rant for a while.
No problem Cindy.. You made the point I was trying to find a way to say without being rude..
Right there with you - as I've said a load of times, I gave up on "passing" when I gave up pretending to be a man. I get weird treatment from (straight) men sometimes, but women just seem really comfortable around me, even if they're not sure what I am :). I'm not changing my voice much, because making it higher makes me feel prepubescent, which = unsafe. So I'll stick with what I have.
I think for people in places where it's a lot less safe to be trans, passing matters more, and that makes sense. So it's not a b&w situation, each person's needs are different.
Kelly, your post is an inspiration.
Most of us would like to pass, but I know several MtFs who don't and never will and they are very happy with their transition. I'm also of the opinion that MtF's who don't pass do us all a great service, reminding people we do exist, that we're among you and that we're not crazy, dangerous people.
I'm new to this and I'm still doing whatever I can to pass, but I hope at one point I end up with your attitude, and just let myself be me.
I am a firm believer that passing is as much attitude and confidence as looks. We have all seen rather manly looking women but never gave them a second thought. Thats because knew they were women no matter how they looked and thats how we should be also.
This thread came at a good time for me. I have been feeling really "mannish" these past few days. I have been feeling like I don't look feminine in the least. Also, so many threads here are about what it takes to "pass", and how you need to change. It really helps me to read about strong women who know who they are, accept who they are, and don't change who they are to fit societies definition of feminine. I think you all are lovely, and your stories give me inspiration to just keep being me. Thank you.
I think the ability to pass is a direct result to how many trans people the observer has been around in their life. The only ones who clock me are the male stripper types that are around ridiculously amounts of trans women. However a friend of mine who just transitioned isn't so lucky. I was in a line at a festival and a guy who was selling food went "....and thats a guy" after taking her order. Her voice however is terrible, and I seriously think its why they noticed.
Some of us need to work on our voice... or at least speech pattern, some do not. Kind of like how some of us are going to need ffs and many of us do not.
Quote from: kelly_aus on October 15, 2012, 03:16:22 AM
It seems I'm somewhat of a rebel when it comes to 'passing' - at least in the fairly stereotypical definition that exists here.
Let me start by saying I 'pass', I've not been misgendered in so long I forget the last time it happened. I'm fine in stores, in public and even in bathrooms. I've been asked for tampons often enough now that I carry a few around with me. I don't get funny looks and I certainly haven't heard any one making any odd comments.
So why am I a rebel? I refuse to do a whole bunch of things that are apparently 'necessary' for me to do in order to 'pass'. I've been told by other members here that I will require FFS in order to pass. Guess what? I have no interest in FFS. The apparently 'masculine' features I have are all present in all the other women in my family - and no one accuses them of being men. I may not be a stereotypical beauty, but I've blended into society as a woman.
There are whole threads dedicated to voice and how you have a voice that is pitched at a typical female level in order to 'pass'. I've done no work to change my voice and it does me just fine - I've been accused of being lazy because of this. Funny thing is, it's only people here that say my voice doesn't pass. People I know in real life all give it a pass, as do members of another chat room I'm a member of. None of whom have any reason to lie to me about it either. I don't get any funny looks or changes in attitude from random strangers when I use it in public either. I guess it's a case of 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it.' My therapist, who has extensive experience with trans people, has also commented on my voice, he gives it a pass too.
I've not really done anything to change how I move or other physical mannerisms - I've had no need, I've always moved like a female and had female mannerisms. This is something I previously got quite a lot of grief for - both from family/friends and strangers. My family and friends understand why now.
I transitioned to be me, the me I always knew was there, just hidden away. And in the bit over 2 years since I came out and started my transition, I feel I've done pretty well. On a day to day basis, I 'pass'. I'm never going to be stealth, I have too many old friends and my entire family still in my life, but friends I've made since I started transition, and who know my past, have commented that they could not imagine me ever being a man.
I feel the same way as you about this "passing." I've seen threads on here that say you must have this and that and look like this and talk like that and do this and so on. I find it a bit irritating, to be quite honest.
I don't understand why a group of people that is trying to hard not to be boxed and who fight to actually get out of this box they've been put it, insist on re-boxing themselves. I don't understand this need to fight for being accepted and then start judging people in that same group on your own. It's just doesn't sit with me. I hope this made any sense. I just felt a bit like ranting too.
-Ugla.
hey, count me in. I have NO intention of taking "Mickey Mouse" voice lessons, and my money is going to my future SRS. I have been RLT for 2 years, and you know what, nobody has has said a think.
I think it is all in the way you project your inner "chola," that is all. :)
BTW Kelly, I think your inner beauty not only shows in your postings, but also in your eyes and smile. Personally, I think you are a gorgeous lady.
OO
Peky
A dear friend and I were chatting about this very thing. She is very much in your corner, Kelly. She can not understand why some many are concerned with "passing". When she transitioned, a long time ago, she did not do the FFS or the voice training. She "just let it flow". Those are her words. And even in my own transition I have went the same way.
I have always said that it is all about "attitude". Not the "Screw you" type or even the "I don't care" type. It is more of the "I am woman. Here me roar!". Yes, I don't care what others think. But then again anyone who wants to be themselves really don't.
Do I pass? I think so, as far as anyone can. Passing is meeting someone else's expectations of who you should be in their eyes. But that is why so many stay "in the closet". They are trying to "pass" for someone else.
I prefer to just be me.
That is great if you found what works for you, but honestly, so what? What are you trying to say? Like, do you want everyone else to not put any effort into their transition and look, sound and act like a guy? I'm sorry hon but if you go out of the house without changing your voice and not caring about your appearance, I would clock you. And a lot of people would, but MOST people wouldn't say anything because it's not something you say normally unless you're juvenile.
But again, everybody can do what they want. Most girls would feel awful if they sounded and acted like a man. I think you should understand that to other MTFs these are actually really important issues that cause a lot of distress and a lot of hurt. Do what works for you but don't expect other people to because other people have different standards for themselves.
Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?
Passing comes with certain social privileges. That's just... the way our world works. It's cool if you don't care, but it's not free. And the not-caring often comes from a place of privilege... I'm a student and just starting out in my career. Really you think my passability is irrelevant to being hired? I'm female and visibly queer, that's two strikes against me already.
Also... I guess I just come at this from a very different place. Passing happened to me very early on in my transition, before any surgical modifications. Other people? *Shrug* It's my body. This was always about my body. Whether I was accepted or not as a woman never made any difference for that. Attitude never made any difference for that.
I have an ugly history of self-harm because I just hated my body that much. Am I not me now that I've changed? For the first time in my life, I feel like I'm all me, not in an endless war against my body, against myself. I'm hardly "natural," but I'm happy in my artificiality, in my reconstructed flesh. I think this is the most me I've ever been.
I think we need... space for everyone here. I think passing is not always a "silly game." I don't think choosing not to alter your flesh or voice or mannerisms is always a way to "just be me." I don't think everyone feels like fitting in amongst other women is insisting on "re-boxing themselves." I think some people actually LIKE being feminine rather a lot and don't feel like they are changing "who they are to fit societies definition of feminine." And, ya, you know what my voice didn't require any training either to be gendered female. Which is an AMAZING privilege to have. And I have a ton of respect for those who feel the need and go through the painstaking and difficult process of altering their voice. And I try not to go out of my way to grind my genetic gift in anyone's face. Or use language like "'Mickey Mouse' voice lessons."
And, ya, there are other threads which are pretty awful going the other way, talking about how you ABSOLUTELY MUST do a given thing, and that's horrible and alienating and I'm sorry you guys have to read that crap. But that doesn't make this thread any more respectful or any less a condemnation of people with different experiences.
yeah. plassing seems to be more about flow. you could be but ugly and still pass and have fun out in the sun. i have noticed some trans people both MtoF and FtoM who seem to pass and not get crap just because of the fact that they go with the flow. its reall amazing to watch. coolness just makes things work. 8)
You know, quiet frankly wherever I am, supermarket, restaurant, movies, mall, hardware store, work, university, church, 90% of the women my age are ugly or fat or both. That is not to say there is something wrong with them. I am just commenting in their external appearance.
I would say almost 60% have what pretty and the other "eagle eyes' would consider "man features," and a good 20% have a deep voice close to mine.
As far as you or anybody else cloaking me, huhhh, I am shaking in my boots!
One thing is to be midnful of ones manerism, behaviour, and proper dressing; and another different thing is to be so obessed as to be freaky and calling attention on oneself.
Quote from: Ugla on October 15, 2012, 12:33:30 PM
I don't understand why a group of people that is trying to hard not to be boxed and who fight to actually get out of this box they've been put it, insist on re-boxing themselves. I don't understand this need to fight for being accepted and then start judging people in that same group on your own. It's just doesn't sit with me. I hope this made any sense. I just felt a bit like ranting too.
-Ugla.
Who says that people don't want to be boxed? My only aim of getting out of the boy box was to be put into the girl box, not get out of boxes altogether. That's not to say that i judge people negatively for wanting to escape boxes altogether, though.
Quote from: pretty on October 15, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?
Nope, i'm one of those and i still don't want people to clock me for perceived male characteristics, including voice.
Quote
I support everyone's personal expression, and I respect that no two transitions are really alike. Passing just happens to be very important to me, and I suppose I've begun feeling alienated because my story and identity "conform to the transsexual narrative".
I don't feel as if I "conform to the transsexual narrative" at all, but passing is still very important to me and thankfully I'm making progress now. I also feel alienated from certain groups of trans people because I have no wish to break down the gender binary as far as my own life is concerned. I just wanted to live on the other side of it, and I know I'm not the only one who feels like that either.
Quote from: Ms. OBrien on October 15, 2012, 12:52:32 PM
I have always said that it is all about "attitude". Not the "Screw you" type or even the "I don't care" type. It is more of the "I am woman. Here me roar!". Yes, I don't care what others think. But then again anyone who wants to be themselves really don't.
haha! that's just the kind of attitude that will convince you that the muscular bearded woman indeed is a woman...
i wouldn't want to make light of anyone's efforts to fit in, since i realize that this is a very typical thing to do even for cis people, and very important for many. but it does make me happy to see that there are people who don't try to be anything other than themselves, and are accepted as just that
Quote from: pretty on October 15, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
Most girls would feel awful if they sounded and acted like a man.
My experience is different. For most of the mature females I know (maybe that excludes "girls") their feelings about themselves is NOT dependent on how they present themselves. Instead it's about the impact they make on the people they care about and their place in the world.
I have found the female who feels awful because of her looks and presentation to be a negative stereotype that is, thankfully, hard to find in reality.
Quote from: pretty on October 15, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
That is great if you found what works for you, but honestly, so what? What are you trying to say? Like, do you want everyone else to not put any effort into their transition and look, sound and act like a guy? I'm sorry hon but if you go out of the house without changing your voice and not caring about your appearance, I would clock you. And a lot of people would, but MOST people wouldn't say anything because it's not something you say normally unless you're juvenile.
But again, everybody can do what they want. Most girls would feel awful if they sounded and acted like a man. I think you should understand that to other MTFs these are actually really important issues that cause a lot of distress and a lot of hurt. Do what works for you but don't expect other people to because other people have different standards for themselves.
Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?
Please read what I actually said - I never said I don't care about my appearance. And I'm sure another trans woman would clock me, just like I'd clock them. But then, you'd probably clock my mother as well, she has a deeper voice than I and all the same masculine facial features I do. :P And as for being polite? This is Australia, so that's not likely - not in the slightest. There's just no way that 100% of the people who I interact with would be too polite to say anything.
Quote from: peky on October 15, 2012, 03:43:41 PM
One thing is to be midnful of ones manerism, behaviour, and proper dressing; and another different thing is to be so obessed as to be freaky and calling attention on oneself.
My mannerisms have always been typically female, as I said in the OP, so no problems there. Same with my behaviour. And whilst I do dress in a style that some might consider butch, what I wear and how I wear it is unmistakably female.
And as far as employment is concerned, I've now worked several places as me - I've no trouble gaining employment as a somewhat 'mannish' looking woman with a deep voice. This includes Australia's oldest company - which is also it's oldest bank.
Quote
I've never thought of passing as a personal decision. I am a woman, and I want others to interact with me as such. And whether or not I like it, there's a social consensus about what people *generally* think of as female. But beyond that, I want to look, sound, and come across through body language and demeanor as female, because that's what feels most genuine to me.
Self-acceptance is obviously important in all instances, whether or not a person will be capable of truly passing. But there does seem to be the danger of swinging the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. If we start dismissing attempts to pass by changing one's voice and manner of speech, wearing dresses and makeup, and being clearly feminine in one's demeanor and characterizing these things as disingenuous or even worse, as internalized transphobia or cissexism, it's still invalidating to those who see these things as simply a part of their identity.
I support everyone's personal expression, and I respect that no two transitions are really alike. Passing just happens to be very important to me, and I suppose I've begun feeling alienated because my story and identity "conform to the transsexual narrative".
What I was really saying, I guess, is that I've done enough for me, as far as passing in concerned. And yes, there is a social consensus - but my experience has been that give the general population 75% of what they are expecting and they will fill in the rest, regardless of what the specific topic is.
Self-confidence is key. If you don't have it, you'll never pass regardless of what other work you have done.
My OP was not intended to offend. It was simply a comment to those that
insist that in order to pass you must do A, B and C. I'm sure I'm going to get gasps of disbelief when I say this, but I pass as I am. That's not my opinion, it's the opinion of others, it's the experience of my day to day life.
If you feel the need for FFS or have had it, good on you, it's your choice. If you've changed your voice, again, good on you. it's your choice. Perhaps my OP was a bit too rambling and could have been put better - it was intended as a comment to those that say you
must do these things.
I guess that as long as you pass as you with the important people in your life, nobody else really matters.
Quote from: pretty on October 15, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
That is great if you found what works for you, but honestly, so what? What are you trying to say? Like, do you want everyone else to not put any effort into their transition and look, sound and act like a guy? I'm sorry hon but if you go out of the house without changing your voice and not caring about your appearance, I would clock you. And a lot of people would, but MOST people wouldn't say anything because it's not something you say normally unless you're juvenile.
But again, everybody can do what they want. Most girls would feel awful if they sounded and acted like a man. I think you should understand that to other MTFs these are actually really important issues that cause a lot of distress and a lot of hurt. Do what works for you but don't expect other people to because other people have different standards for themselves.
Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?
I'm not saying anything about how other people approach their lives. In fact the opposite. I'm totally supportive of people and will back people to the hilt to live thier lives in anyway they wish. However I am concerned about some people who end up in a terrible fix because they believe they cannot pass for a variety of reasons. In some cases they get extremely despondent and suffer depression and start to think of self harm. Why? Because they have no chance to correct their physical make up? Because they have no chance to afford FFS? Lots of becauses. I will support them in any way I can. If my comments about self acceptance and confidence help them that is everything.
I would love to look like a beautiful natural woman, maybe I do. No one comments about it and no one calls me by anything except female pronouns EVEN though most people I know also knew me when I was presenting as a guy.
Are people too polite to make comments? For Goddess sake I live in Australia, people are as polite as chainsaws. I work in a highly competitive job and it is dog eat dog. Keep smiling and make sure the knife goes in deep. If there is a weakness in someone exploit it before it is done to you.
Quote
"Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?"As a Mod I do not moderate threads I post in.
But that is rude and I would like an apology. I may be 'old' but I'm definitely not lesbian and even if I were, that remark is rude and against ToS.
When we discuss matters we do it with civility.
Cindy James
I don't think an apology is required for someone posting their view. It is the very definition of a forum. In fact it's required for something to be a forum. Also it was actually phrased as a question. People can ask questions. Was it offensive? I don't know. It wasn't to me but, perhaps it was offensive to others. I find any post that shares view points from the Abrahamic religions to be offensive but its ok because the important thing is not to respect the opinions of others, it is to respect their right to hold them, regardless of how offensive they may be. I don't ask white supremacists to apologise to me, I just consider them morons and continue on my merry way :)
I just love that some assume I don't care about passing - I do care.. And by any objective test, I pass.
Like I said, all I was really trying to say is that you don't always have to do certain things in order to pass.
Quote from: Cindy James on October 16, 2012, 03:02:56 AM
Quote "Is it just me that notices that mostly only late transitioning lesbian MTFs feel this way about passing?"
As a Mod I do not moderate threads I post in. But that is rude and I would like an apology. I may be 'old' but I'm definitely not lesbian and even if I were, that remark is rude and against ToS.
When we discuss matters we do it with civility.
Cindy James
I am sorry if I phrased that wrong but, I just mean... it's a different lifestyle?
Late transitioners are in a position where they built a life for themselves living as a man. Many had children with wives as a man. That is the mode they tackled all their difficulties with and got to a place where they are accepted and feel comfortable in society.
I do not think it is fair for someone who first found their place in a male life and transitioned to expect young MTFs who are creating their place in life, for the first time around, as a woman, to have the same carefree attitude about passing. Sure... maybe when you're older you wouldn't worry so severely about passing. Your future doesn't hinge on passing. If you don't pass to the general public, it's not really going to affect your life majorly in any way. And maybe you already have a status in life that you feel comfortable with, but you just want to make some personal changes to.
It is different as a young MTF though... every part of your future could be ruined or hurt by living publicly as a trans person, you probably have fewer strong allies than you can count on one hand and really I can only speak for myself but it means so, so much to me to be every bit of what I could be as a cis girl to whatever extent is possible. It's the only life I get.
I said lesbian as well because orientation is a dividing line on the kind of life a late transitioner lived. It's not an insult... but again, I was talking about the type of person who established their current place of life in a traditional father-and-husband role.
Quote from: kelly_aus on October 16, 2012, 03:22:57 AM
I just love that some assume I don't care about passing - I do care.. And by any objective test, I pass.
Like I said, all I was really trying to say is that you don't always have to do certain things in order to pass.
I can't speak for whoever sees you in public but that is beside the point...
I just think you have a different mindset than someone to whom it is very important to, if you wouldn't even put the effort in to make yourself that little bit more passable and feminine. And I don't think it is fair to expect it to be any less than extremely important to MTFs who have struggled and just want to start living their lives already.
Quote from: pretty on October 16, 2012, 03:54:27 AM
I am sorry if I phrased that wrong but, I just mean... it's a different lifestyle?
Late transitioners are in a position where they built a life for themselves living as a man. Many had children with wives as a man. That is the mode they tackled all their difficulties with and got to a place where they are accepted and feel comfortable in society.
I do not think it is fair for someone who first found their place in a male life and transitioned to expect young MTFs who are creating their place in life, for the first time around, as a woman, to have the same carefree attitude about passing. Sure... maybe when you're older you wouldn't worry so severely about passing. Your future doesn't hinge on passing. If you don't pass to the general public, it's not really going to affect your life majorly in any way. And maybe you already have a status in life that you feel comfortable with, but you just want to make some personal changes to.
It is different as a young MTF though... every part of your future could be ruined or hurt by living publicly as a trans person, you probably have fewer strong allies than you can count on one hand and really I can only speak for myself but it means so, so much to me to be every bit of what I could be as a cis girl to whatever extent is possible. It's the only life I get.
I said lesbian as well because orientation is a dividing line on the kind of life a late transitioner lived. It's not an insult... but again, I was talking about the type of person who established their current place of life in a traditional father-and-husband role.
I was never a husband or a father. I lived most of my life as a gay man.
QuoteI can't speak for whoever sees you in public but that is beside the point...
I just think you have a different mindset than someone to whom it is very important to, if you wouldn't even put the effort in to make yourself that little bit more passable and feminine. And I don't think it is fair to expect it to be any less than extremely important to MTFs who have struggled and just want to start living their lives already.
If I'd taken to heart what I got told by a bunch of people here, at least as far as things I
had to do in order to pass (according to them), I'd still be hiding in a closet, frantically trying to save money and living a miserable life as a man.
I'm not saying to no one needs to have FFS or do voice work or whatever, I'm just saying it's not always as needed as some people say it is. Being honest, there are one or two things about my face I'd like to have fixed, but they are for my own vanity.
Pretty,
Thank you.
And I apologise if I was a bit rough. I felt quite bad about your post, sometimes people do not know triggers.
I knew I was TG when I was about five years old. I livid in misery not knowing why I wasn't a girl. It was an age when TG people didn't exist. Of course they did. But there was no information. It wasn't until I was 13 or so that I read an article about transvestites and thought, Oh maybe I'm one of those. I wasn't. I was a girl. I came out to my parents and wanted some hope and understanding. There wasn't any. With the help of my older sister I started to go out as me to discos and stuff ( I am old :embarrassed:). I was held down and raped so I knew what it was to be female.
I escaped and became me but there were no facilities to undergo sex change. I know people, including on this site, of my age who were locked up in psychiatric wards for being insane; their insanity? Being TG.
My care free attitude is built from pain. My concern is for the young. How can a young person who doesn't 'pass' live with that? How can a person who looks 'odd ' pass. No way. You do so by carrying yourself with pride and confidence.
It is, in my opinion, far far easier for young people to pass and live normal lives. Most countries have laws to prevent discrimination. In my youth people like us were locked up in male goals, their crime? Homosexuality. I'm sure you can imagine how pleasant their lives were.
What is important? To be yourself or to pass?
Passing is about being yourself.
Until you can accept your self in full confidence; there is no passing; and when you can- you pass
This is my last comment on this subject. I can be pm if people wish to discuss.
Cindy
With all due respect you're much older thus the expectations( on many levels) are not the same at all... About your voice people probably just assume you've been smoking/drinking scotch all your life.
So a lot of things you're shrugging off will be of much greater importance to younger transitionners who simply are in another league.
Whilst I agree that passing, in femininity terms, is not the be-all and end-all, for me it is important to do everything I can.
It becomes an issue of personal safety. Last June I was on holiday in France and had spent the whole two weeks dressed and out and about and had had no problem.
Feeling very confident, on the way home I stopped in an aire which in hindsight I think was a traveller's site. As I was feeling very relaxed my guard was down and I couldn't care less when a young girl appeared to be taking an undue interest. The camper van was shortly surrounded by five cackling girls and I decided to make a dignified exit.
As I did so they made a dash to close the sliding gate on the exit and trap me in. Fortunately I made it out just as the menfolk were returning so I don't like to think what might have followed.
It is possible that I project the victim as I've always been described as under confident for reasons which I've never understood or been able to change.
If I can't change my personality, perhaps I can change my femininity.
I also wish to pass as much as possible as I don't like to open myself up to public ridicule and, FYI, yes, I am "older"
Passing is an extremely variable concept, given the subjective nature of everyone's personal experience of the universe. What it is to one is not true for everyone else, and one's experience with it may be agreed or disagreed with, but that experience does not change by that alone. The purpose of transition is to get to a point where our body-mind differences and discomforts are resolved to our own satisfaction, without necessary the satisfaction of others.
Therefore, live as you will and always pursue happiness. If you are happy, you are already there, and there is nothing more that needs doing.
An example of this is my perception of myself. I have people telling me that I pass - specifically that I'm cute, or pretty, and sometimes, somebody will even call me beautiful. I love those words. However, their meaning is partially lost on me, because I can't see my cuteness or prettiness most of the time. In my eyes, I don't pass. But yet, I do pass - I have just failed to fully realize it because I am partial. I am subjective. I really try to maintain an objective point of view, but such a goal is impossible with one's dealings with one's own self.
So, huzzah, Kelly. If you ask my opinion, I will always give it as honestly as I can. I am glad that you don't need it, though. :)
We all have differing views on presentation. Respect for others choices is essential. I am locking this thread. Devlyn