I was seeing a few photos of a gorgeous cis female model, and when I get to the comments I read something like "Uuuuugly man shoulders. Would not hit it". Yup, the typical basement dweller comment. And I was like "What's the problem?" I have always liked decent shoulders instead of the tiny puny ones, but I don't know... I always had and incredible love and respect for athletic women.
I have found a lot of comments here about people worrying about broad / wide shoulders, but... When can they be considered broad? One of the theories I can find in the net is that they are broad when your shoulders are wider than your hips, but... I can't see anything bad about the T body aspect (alright, that's more or less mine, so I may be biased on this one.)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transprism.com%2Fimages%2Fmeasurements%2FshoulderWidth.jpg&hash=f8161dc05b37c5de6318c1b22e3d5fa990863136)
Using this measurement, I'd say that mine are between 17 and 18" when they are relaxed (It's a bit difficult to measure your own back). Can that be considered broad? It probably is, since I can't use "Girly" tees (at least the ones from Threadless), but they don't look that bad to me. Are they that manly? Compared to what I usually see at the gym, they look rather tiny...
So, two questions:
- Do they make female clothing for this kind of body configuration?
- Can they be considered a dead giveaway of the trans origin?
I have found certain colors and styles of tops can help make the shoulders look smaller in relation to the rest of your body. I have seen some women with very narrow hips compared to their shoulders and unfortunately, it does kind of stand out. But where I noticed it appearing worse was on the beach when they were wearing swimwear and I'm sure they were cis. And I know some men are put off by bulky shoulders as they most expect women to have smaller kind of angled down a little shoulders, not bulky and squared off.
And I measured mine just for the heck of it, by putting one shoulder against the wall and measuring from the wall to the outside of the other shoulder and mine comes up just under 16".
Quote from: Jaime on October 18, 2012, 05:29:37 PM
I have found certain colors and styles of tops can help make the shoulders look smaller in relation to the rest of your body. I have seen some women with very narrow hips compared to their shoulders and unfortunately, it does kind of stand out. But where I noticed it appearing worse was on the beach when they were wearing swimwear and I'm sure they were cis. And I know some men are put off by bulky shoulders as they most expect women to have smaller kind of angled down a little shoulders, not bulky and squared off.
And I measured mine just for the heck of it, by putting one shoulder against the wall and measuring from the wall to the outside of the other shoulder and mine comes up just under 16".
I agree. The right clothing can mask that. I have broad shoulders an I try to walk by pulling my shoulders back a little and it takes off (visually) a few inches. In the end I think it's more about how you handle yourself. Being a woman can be hard work sometimes. :)
I think it is more about how they look vs measurements. Squared off shoulders tend to look bigger then sloping. For the over 40 crowd, remember the shoulder pad craze? Mine are fairly wide but far from square. I am sure my big hips and most importantly dressing to maximize the desireable features goes a long way.
As for what looks good? Everybody has their own preferences. While I cannot say I have a "type" both my wife and a very dear female friend have well delevoped shoulders. In both cases from being big time swimmers. In both cases I was and still am attracted to them by their spirit, passion for life, and incredible minds.
Look at Phoebe and tell me that her shoulders make her masculine. I have her shoulder to hip ratio, that is 1.1 to 1, measured straight across (not the circumference!)
http://hollywooddame.com/2011/12/07/most-iconic-movie-nude-scenes/phoebe-cates/ (http://hollywooddame.com/2011/12/07/most-iconic-movie-nude-scenes/phoebe-cates/)
It's why m2f worry about fat distribution around the hip and thigh area. You can't change your shoulders, well, in theory you can, but you can change the fat distribution. It's why I do squats and lower body workouts. Those big thighs come in handy too. Remember those? It helps to keep the centre of gravity lower.
Average female is 17 inches, you are 14, way female. Now, go and be happy!
http://www.livestrong.com/article/484806-the-average-shoulder-width-for-females/ (http://www.livestrong.com/article/484806-the-average-shoulder-width-for-females/)
Quote from: peky on October 18, 2012, 05:56:06 PM
Average female is 17 inches, you are 14, way female. Now, go and be happy!
That image was an example of how to measure. Theirs are 18".
Quote from: Rotten Apple on October 18, 2012, 05:16:17 PM
So, two questions:
- Do they make female clothing for this kind of body configuration?
- Can they be considered a dead giveaway of the trans origin?
They make a lot of clothes for women with "broad" shoulders. Just look at what athletic women wear.
No, I don't think it is a dead giveaway that you are trans.
I've noticed that females who wear tight tops, tend to have quite sloping shoulders, while men tend to have much more straight ones.
That may be because men's chests tend to be wider.
Though as others have said, it's back to the old problem that's been bothering girls since time began. What they are wearing.
OK, I've just Googled images of women's backs and men's. According to those images, I not correct.
Sorry.
Hmmm: average female is 17 inches? I've searched the internet, and I've yet to come up with a clear authoritative answer. It does seem to be somewhere around 17".
This is interesting because, if I'm getting the correct measurement, mine are about 18"; and I've always thought that I had the shoulders of a line-backer, and that they would be a real problem in trying to pass.
So, perhaps I just need to lose some weight (about 35 pounds would be great); but that's still so much easier said than done, *sigh*.
Quote from: TessaM on October 18, 2012, 05:38:12 PM
You can still look good, hot even, but you can throw those ideas of you looking like the cute petite girl of your dreams out the window.
Petite frame? Not sure why I would want that (girls in my dreams always used to have muscles and athletic build). I'm OK with my body and already at a low fat level. Not too big, not too small and shorter shoulders would be a nuisance for carrying equipment. I also have a rather long neck (and quite thick), so they are quite sloping (not sure if it is good or bad). Putting them straight makes them a bit smaller, but... I am not that unlucky my torso.
Anyways, I don't know if I took into account a small detail while measuring... My back looks like this whenever I thighten a bit: http://www.waktoys.com/images/7ft_Sagat_back.jpg. (http://www.waktoys.com/images/7ft_Sagat_back.jpg.) Obviously exaggerating, but my it has gotten quite bulky on the last years with the exercise.
Fat to increase the hips and improve the rate... Uf. People talk wonders about the fat redistribution, but I'm not that keen on that. Medically speaking, I need to keep a good overall level of muscle tone (no hypertrophy) in all my body to avoid lesions and keep a decent walking gait, as my physiotherapist put it. I could try to eat a lot, but with my cardio level it may be a bit difficult to earn fat.
QuoteThose big thighs come in handy too. Remember those? It helps to keep the centre of gravity lower.
I was told they would look smaller with my new exercise program due to the muscle thighening (rather flabby now). If they get bigger with the hip fat it is not going to be a pretty sight. Or maybe I just am quite happy with my current aspect. If I get just a tiny bit of fat to hide the protruding bones on the sides, it will be perfect, at least for me.
PS: Remembering my irritating parents, years and years...
"You have no chest. I am going to call you "recceeded chest". Go to the gym and make it bigger! Stick it out!"Thanks, mum and dad. I almost destroyed my body even more thanks to your advice. And they still keep doing it.
Well, mine are just over 19", and I consider them broad, but it's just about okay, given my height (5'11'') and 1:1 chest-to-hips ratio.
I do wish they were narrower (I also wish I were shorter), but there are plenty of fashion models with broad shoulders (it's easier to drape clothes from broader, squarer shoulders, they don't slide off so easily), and athletes, obviously.
There are guys who are not intimidated by, and attracted to women who are tall, broad-shouldered, and look like models or athletes.
Good for me. ;)
Complaining about broad shoulders? Being born with XX genes doesn't automatically make you a petite little waif.
It's not an exclusive m2f complaint..
http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/weight-loss/shoulder-width (http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/weight-loss/shoulder-width)
Quote from: Tesla on October 19, 2012, 06:55:19 AM
Complaining about broad shoulders? Being born with XX genes doesn't automatically make you a petite little waif.
Nope, more like complaining about why people complain about... Aghhh, let's forget about it, too complicate. I love mines. What I need is to find info on how to find clothing prepared for different shoulders. One of the worst parts of choosing to go MTF is that you can kiss goodbye to the "one size fits all".
Quote from: Rotten Apple on October 19, 2012, 06:59:53 AM
Nope, more like complaining about why people complain about... Aghhh, let's forget about it, too complicate. I love mines. What I need is to find info on how to find clothing prepared for different shoulders. One of the worst parts of choosing to go MTF is that you can kiss goodbye to the "one size fits all".
Hi Apple, I wasn't addressing you in particular. Just that complaining about the shape of our bodies is a very cis preoccupation indeed! Welcome to womanhood.
That's what I was thinking. I know many gfemales have very similar shoulder widths as mine. I worn their clothes!
I assumed it was the slope and have tried allowing my shoulders to drop and keep them there
Though I am tending to ward the stock explaination of self confidence and self image.
The problem of looking at published photos is they tend to be trying to create an impression. If it's possible to look at people, in the real world, without being caught, then we might get a better impression.
Hi you all,
I'm biologically female, and maybe FtA in the future. My shoulders are an impressive 20 inches wide, it seems I'm one of the bulkiest in the crowd. And my hips are 15 inches. ::) So yea, I'd fit the male criteria a lot easier than the typical woman measurements. But even so, men do find me attractive as a female - and even more nowadays when I jog and my hips are smaller than before. I get called athletic, yeah, but never manly - which, of course, has been a bit of a disappointment for me ;) But I agree that appearing to be cute could be difficult.
Quote from: Phoeniks on October 19, 2012, 08:10:35 AM
Hi you all,
I'm biologically female, and maybe FtA in the future. My shoulders are an impressive 20 inches wide, it seems I'm one of the bulkiest in the crowd. And my hips are 15 inches. ::) So yea, I'd fit the male criteria a lot easier than the typical woman measurements. But even so, men do find me attractive as a female - and even more nowadays when I jog and my hips are smaller than before. I get called athletic, yeah, but never manly - which, of course, has been a bit of a disappointment for me ;) But I agree that appearing to be cute could be difficult.
Yeah, you right girl! Dudes like us athletic women!
BTW I am also a biological woman, no a single cybernetic part on me. :laugh:
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 18, 2012, 07:44:22 PM
No, I don't think it is a dead giveaway that you are trans.
Yes, it is, especially with a big, honking head above them....easy to recognise a MTF even seen only from her
back.
Quote from: Tesla on October 19, 2012, 07:06:56 AM
Hi Apple, I wasn't addressing you in particular. Just that complaining about the shape of our bodies is a very cis preoccupation indeed! Welcome to womanhood.
Thanks. What comes to my mind is that c'mon, everyday I see women with similar shoulders to mine, and most of the girls I met were athletic types, so they were in the same built. So they must make clothing for them, don't they? I am on the beggining phase of adapting my clothing, but the upper part is like a black beast. I like form fitting clothes that show my waist, but I don't know where they advertise "fits XXX size shoulders". Female "normal" clothing big enough to fit my shoulders would probably look quite baggy, so I don't know if there is an special kind of clothing that will work on a T build or just unisex clothing.
QuoteYeah, you right girl! Dudes like us athletic women!
I can't consider myself a dude anymore (mentally at least), but you can bet I do! That aura of strenght, confidence, willpower...
small shoulders would be below 15" I think, around the 5'3-5'8 mark. I'm just under 5'8 with 13.5 in shoulders and my gf is 5'6 with 13" shoulders, were both pretty "small framed".
Quote from: Dahlia on October 19, 2012, 08:19:06 AM
Yes, it is, especially with a big, honking head above them....easy to recognise a MTF even seen only from her back.
You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
Quote from: Dahlia on October 19, 2012, 08:19:06 AM
Yes, it is, especially with a big, honking head above them....easy to recognise a MTF even seen only from her back.
I often worry about that, as my shoulders are close to 24"
Quote from: niciwer on October 19, 2012, 02:31:27 PM
I often worry about that, as my shoulders are close to 24"
not going to lie, 24'' shoulders might be a real passing problem :/.
Quote from: niciwer on October 19, 2012, 02:31:27 PM
I often worry about that, as my shoulders are close to 24"
Is that pre-HRT? How much of that could be deltoid muscle and fat?
Quote from: Rotten Apple on October 19, 2012, 08:19:47 AM
Thanks. What comes to my mind is that c'mon, everyday I see women with similar shoulders to mine, and most of the girls I met were athletic types, so they were in the same built. So they must make clothing for them, don't they? I am on the beggining phase of adapting my clothing, but the upper part is like a black beast. I like form fitting clothes that show my waist, but I don't know where they advertise "fits XXX size shoulders". Female "normal" clothing big enough to fit my shoulders would probably look quite baggy, so I don't know if there is an special kind of clothing that will work on a T build or just unisex clothing.
I think your best bet would be clothes made of synthetic, extensible fabrics, so that they stretch around your shoulders while staying close to your waist.
Whether cis or trans, few women can successfully pull off an off-the-shelf shirt made of natural, non-stretchy fabrics : they're typically made for women who are tall-ish or have a long torso with narrow shoulders, small breasts, not much of a defined waist... basically, the stick figures you see on the catwalk. I'm FAAB, but believe me if you saw me in a women's cotton shirt you would burst out laughing at how ridiculous I look ;D
If you have a sewing machine (or if you're veeery patient with a needle), you can also alter your tops if they fit around the shoulders but look baggy around the waist : lay the shirt flat, fold it in half vertically with the edges matching, and cut out a vertical band of fabric along the edge from the waist hem to the bottom of the armpits. Now you have a slimmer shirt with open sides, just have to sew them back together.
I do have a sewing machine, but I have never used it (I was planning on using it for my BLythe Doll, but...). I'm going to learn a lot of thing If I want to survive RLE Pre-HRT.
I wanted to wear something like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcPt9y.jpg&hash=a52bf837529aa0979e699230aa55b88ea825608c)
Yeah, I still like suits. But I don't know what I can afford. 29-30" waist, 33" hips, 33" underbust (measured under the moobs) and 17-18" shoulders (left to righ), a pair of curvy pads to fake hips. I was planning on corsetting, but I still have the problem. If I were to buy online ( I know, still no confidence to go to a local shop), how could I know if the shoulder with will fit me? The last top I bought was an M t-shirt from threadless, and although the body fit was perfect, it was too short on the shoulders as to move the arms properly.
So, I would have to buy somethin big enought to fit my shoulders, and tailor it? I think I have a lot baggy t-shirts I can´t put anymore, so maybe they can be useful again. Thanks!
And paying attention to this one:
http://youtu.be/1dJVTNib02U (http://youtu.be/1dJVTNib02U)
And the most important thing: I am beginning to understand why the girls at work when they wear new clothing, they talk about it as if they had found the Lost Ark...
^ Particularly unique bodytypes will probably do best to go Made to Measure. There's services offering this via the internet, but I've never been convinced by the results. Your best bet is to find a tailor locally (maybe semi-locally if you don't live near a major city - sadly this is a dying art) who will offer the service. Usually the price is about 300 - 600 per suit depending on what fabric you select, possibly less per suit if you have him make a few at a time. You can pay more of course.
If you're worried, I can positively guarantee that there will be Trans* friendly tailors in any major city with a significant queer community.
Theoretically ready to wear clothing is actually a sound concept, because an overwhelming majority of adults will have effectively similar measurements at a given height and weight. In reality in breaks down, because most RTW companies don't put out the effort to make well fitting clothing, but once you factor in trans* bodytypes and the critical nature of tailored fitting everything sort of flies out the window.
Quote from: Tesla on October 19, 2012, 03:08:48 PM
Is that pre-HRT? How much of that could be deltoid muscle and fat?
well, on and back off. but that's just from the end of the bone. the shoulders actually extend further. I've always had broad shoulders, even for a guy :(
My shoulders are 18 and I'm 5'4 and even though pre-transition I was sure it would be an issue it never was. I get gendered female from all angles systematically nonetheless.
Quote from: Anteros on October 23, 2012, 08:02:16 PM
^ Particularly unique bodytypes will probably do best to go Made to Measure. There's services offering this via the internet, but I've never been convinced by the results. Your best bet is to find a tailor locally (maybe semi-locally if you don't live near a major city - sadly this is a dying art) who will offer the service. Usually the price is about 300 - 600 per suit depending on what fabric you select, possibly less per suit if you have him make a few at a time. You can pay more of course.
If you're worried, I can positively guarantee that there will be Trans* friendly tailors in any major city with a significant queer community.
Theoretically ready to wear clothing is actually a sound concept, because an overwhelming majority of adults will have effectively similar measurements at a given height and weight. In reality in breaks down, because most RTW companies don't put out the effort to make well fitting clothing, but once you factor in trans* bodytypes and the critical nature of tailored fitting everything sort of flies out the window.
Thanks. Just a matter of getting inside the community and asking. And learning how to use that sewing machine, It is not going to start sewing by itself...
This thread made me curious... I've wondered for years if my shoulder are broader than most women's fashion expects. I'm FAAB and 5'5" and my shoulders, including muscle, apparently measure about 22". I guess now I know why nothing fits!
Nevertheless, it takes me a lot of effort to pass for androgynous/male (unfortunately). So I presume that other factors can outweigh simple shoulder breadth. :)