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First thing, go easy on yourself,
Second thing is to stop looking in the mirror.
Thirdly, you are a woman, regardless of bones or anything else. Everything else is just details, and you are not alone. We have all been through this, and there is a future on the other side.
Karen.
1st you looking too much to yourself and competing with models
2nd I was similar but taller (185cm), hormones help me get some weight, and also help in shaping, even I now have some fat on my belly I have thinner waist than before and ribcage also go down so now I have hip 90cm (36"), waist 65cm (26") it was unexpected, because I have a fat here now and I always have here over 70cm, underbust 75cm (was like 85), breasts now like 85cm
Just relax and let it go, eat more and be happy to be yourself
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Gain some weight and you will get hips and boobs :-*
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I was also scared about how my body look
It take months when I slowly change from male to androgynous, ad accessories (bracelets, big earrings), overcome fear of people staring at me, and slowly change to girly look
Biggest step for me was to stop thinking about what other will say and have fear of they are looking me, after that I can cay in loud "I am a girl" and people see me as girl
When I come somewhere I am a girl, so I don't care now
After that most of my body hate and sadness about how bad I look fade out
I'm skinny with broader shoulders and what made me feel better about myself was while watching the Olympics I saw that the track and field women looked just like I do! Broad shoulders, small boobs, long legs and yes...defined rib cages. Now granted they have quite a bit more muscle toning than lazy ol' me, but I feel much better now :)
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Women come in all shapes and sizes, once I realised this I was much happier about my transition.
I was always worried about my shoulders being too broad, my chest being too wide, etc. just like you, but fortunately I wasn't suicidal but it did make me depressed to think about it .
The best advice I can give you is just work on being healthy, eat properly, do some exercise and do some searches online for women that have similar proportions to you (they exist! lots of models that are taller and broader!), you can fix your proportions to some extent by gaining some weight, which will give you muscle and fat in the right areas (especially if your on HRT) and work out.
If you want bigger hips/backside, work on your gluts, do some leg curls, incline running, reverse lunges/hops. But whatever you do, DON'T do any mid section work, avoid crunches for example, spot reduction is a myth it only reinforces the muscles that are there and does nothing for the fat! The trick is to lose weight till you reach a good body fat % (called cutting) and then gain weight again by eating excess calories (while still working out) so you can gain muscle and fat in the places that are being worked on (called bulking). And in a few months, you'll have much more fleshed out proportions!
If you want to lose muscle, the trick is to do HIIT (high intensity interval training) especially before breakfast, this gets you catabolic and will cause your body to burn muscle instead of fat, just try to stick to a healthy BMI range and then bulk again to go back to a normal weight and put on fat/muscle in the areas you want it.
I got out of my self loathing spiral by just focusing on what I can improve and thinking about my life after transition. Good luck, I hope this helps.
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could you elaborate what you mean by saying you "love bones?" Are you using the term bones as a synonym for skinny?
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Basic rule of thumb for cals is:
When your cutting -20% of your maintenance calories.
When your bulking +20% of your maintenance calories.
There are a lot of maintenance calcs, but there is some simple ones like this one that is good enough for your purposes: http://www.calorieking.com/interactive-tools/weight-maintenance-calories-calculator/ (http://www.calorieking.com/interactive-tools/weight-maintenance-calories-calculator/)
Activity profile (TEE) is important to get right, I would recommend 3 days a week at the gym, if you overwork you will lose muscle but not much extra fat, that would come to "Regular physical activity" if you do 30-45 minute sessions.
The ideal body fat % is about 7-8% but that is hard to achieve, bodybuilders aim for that to see their abs (don't worry, if you haven't even worked out much you won't see them unless you do some training on your mid section, or compound weight lifting, which is both not recommended). Personally, I'm happy with 9-10% bf, since fit women have a higher fat to muscle ratio then fit men. You'll need calipers to measure this btw.
As for proteins, the higher your protein intake the better your muscle gain will be, if your only interested in putting fat on in the right places, don't worry too much about proteins. Just try to eat "clean", avoid simple sugars and stick to "whole" foods as much as possible.
Same goes for bulking, the cleaner you eat while bulking, the leaner you will be when you bulk but it's inevitable to gain fat (which is what you want to gain a figure), just not too much.
Once you reach a figure you are happy with, stick to your maintenance calories and keep your exercise steady.
Quote from: muuu on October 26, 2012, 12:50:42 PM
I like when bones are visible... so well, it's kind of a synonym to skinny...
Like this: http://imgur.com/mtfLn,zWe5F,Ruhe0,0eFHY#0 (http://imgur.com/mtfLn,zWe5F,Ruhe0,0eFHY#3)
Sorry, but this kind of scares me. To each their own.
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Just 1 session for the day, 30-45 minutes, is all you need, which includes stretching (5min), warmup (5min), weight work (10-15min), cardio (15-20min).
You don't need a gym, it helps since they have free weights for lunges and machine for leg curls/seated leg press. But you can buy some a small set of free weights for lunges and just run wherever you can.
As for doing HIIT, the best is alternate running for at least 15-20 minutes:
1st week: 30 sec running, 1min 30 sec jogging
2nd week: 1min running, 1min 30 sec jogging
3rd week: 1min running, 1min jogging
etc.
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You need fat for fat redistribution to occur while on HRT, so if your underweight, maybe you should bulk first.
Here is a BMI calc: http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmi-m.htm (http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmi-m.htm) (there is heaps of these online, and some charts)
Try to stay above underweight ratio, just get low down on the normal weight range. If you eat cleanly and stick to your routine, you should achieve your bf % goal by then easily, you will usually need need to bulk after.
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You should do a clean bulk, you need some more fat and muscle. One of the best features of HRT is fat redistribution, happens to your body and face. If you don't have enough fat, you might not get the redistribution. I'm not an expert on HRT, maybe someone with someone medical knowledge can confirm or deny this but this is my assumption.
After a few months you can do a cut to get back down, but do get some calipers and check your bf % at that point.
At the very least, try to stay at your current weight while on HRT, so try to eat at or slightly above your maint cals.
Also there is no way to "improve" your figure without bulking unfortunately, especially if you want to put some fat on your hips/buns.
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The way to feel better about bones? Focus on some other parts that are better. As for me, when I feel bad about my male-shaped and hairy body (much worse than yours in that regard by the way), I focus on my good voice, okayish face and okay height.
And if you manage to put on some weight (because seriously, the weight you described sounded more like anorexia than being skinny), fat redistribution will be very kind to you. Actually, now is the one best time to put on weight. You're skinny and your body is initiating HRT's changes. If your hormone levels are right, all of the fat will go in the right places. They'll smooth out your waist, help your hips and butt, etc. You should be seeing a feminine figure appear gradually. Surprisingly feminine.
But you do need to put on weight - and if you're still anywhere near that skinny, a lot of it. Because if you don't have much fat, your body can't work with it much. And trust me, fat redistribution can make heck of a difference.
By the way, the measurements you give seem to be quite within the hourglass shape ideal. That's what girls traditionally want, because culture convinced them it was the best body shape. Regardless of opinion on this, for society, hourglass shape = feminity boost. So. I haven't seen you, but I think you might be distorting your mental image of yourself. Anorexics do that, and it can end ugly...
If after all that, you're still obsessed with your body, I'm afraid you might need professional help from a psychologist. Trans or not, severe self-image issues require treatment. And being trans very much amplifies (sometimes at least) such issues, so. Yeah, don't be ashamed or scared to go to a psychologist if you need to. And if within a few seconds of reading this, you thought that you didn't need one, you most probably do need one. Personal experience.
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Sounds like you need a new therapist, possibly a psychiatrist or at least a psychologist specialising in body issues. Skinny to the point of emaciation is not physically healthy or psychologically, and will not help your transition. Perhaps you need to focus on that rather than the physical.
Karen.
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I was a lot like that a while ago, I knew nothing about food or exercise and I was depressed, I gained weight and hated my body. I was so afraid to even start my transition because of how disgusting I thought I looked and just assumed my transition would be a failure.
Keep in mind, these days, it's not uncommon for women to have poor body image.
But I realised that you can do a lot to build the body you want, I guess thats why they call it "bodybuilding".
I've talked a lot about exercise, and that alone can go a long way to improve your body, your self image and mood. Once you start seeing some progress towards your goal, it starts to feel real good.
But I'll talk a little about food now:
AVOID FRUCTOSE LIKE THE PLAGUE. This stuff is poison, it is in a lot of processed foods and is usually labeled "sugar" or "cane sugar". It directly metabolizes directly into fat and bypasses your glycogen banks. This alone can have a huge impact on your mood and eating habits.
"Clean" bulking is pretty much just this, avoiding dirty foods.
Use a site like calorieking.com to see the cals and sugar content of foods you eat, I've never really used a food scale, you can roughly guesstimate how much cals you eat and just try to stay under or over your target. Don't confuse carbohydrates with sugars, carbs are fine, even sugars are fine as long as it's like glucose (but this is very rare, so just try to avoid sugars in general).
If you are bulking, try to eat high cal density foods, peanut butter and whole egg mayo (don't get the low fat kind, they just replace fat with sugar, ends up worse, this is true for a lot of so called "low fat" stuff), are both tasty and simple products to increase your cal intake.
Eat a lot of meat, rice, pasta, dark green vegetables, wholemeal breads etc. for main meals. A simple dish I have a lot is broiled chicken breast, rice and brocolli (easy to cook just chuck the frozen vegetables and rice into a rice cooker), with some mustard if I'm cutting, or a whole bunch of whole egg mayo if I was bulking. Avoid high sugar condiments (bbq, tomato sauce, etc.).
After a few weeks, you'll be amazed how good it feels to eat properly! I hope this helps and good luck!
Uhm. Eating once a day only isn't -necessarily- unhealthy given that you do it right, but it probably is. Digestive systems aren't quite made to support a whole day's worth of food at a time, so if you do that, I believe that you're either not eating well (too calorie-dense, unhealthy) or not eating enough. You should aim for two real meals a day, at least.
How about seeing a nutritionist? The way I understand it, it's free in Sweden. And no one can help you more than a nutritionist when it comes to adjusting your diet and making it fit with yourself.
As for passing, don't even worry. You're thin; you're young. It would take a catastrophe, the worst luck on Earth, for you not to pass. Even if you need FFS for it. Which you probably don't. Not many people actually need FFS to pass, except maybe older ones.
And yes, I agree that a new psychologist is what you should look for. When they refuse to see that depression can hardly be effectively treated because it has large GID roots nurturing it, it's not very effective. That's like trying to extinguish a fire without turning the gas off. You might be able to do it, but it's not exactly effective.
As for being scared to say it, how about going the coward way? Write it or email it, and let them do the talking; just answer. It's easy that way.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m6z88cvOWu1qkxrtro1_500.jpg&hash=08be45cb994ef4e89a59891cef6636517c068e08)
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You guess a nutritionist would be a good idea? I say, it certainly is the best idea you might have. Go, go, call before you have the time to make up reasons not to go!
How do you expect HRT to allow you to develop if you don't even have all you need to live normally? Plus I'm pretty sure some of your depressive symptoms could be worsened by your bad eating habits.
At least, get a good multivitamin for now. It's not worth healthy eating, but it's certainly better than nothing.
Oh yeah, and you could take up my tip for exercising: Dance Dance Revolution! I can't bring myself to exercise in public, but (until my mat broke this summer :c) this fun game allowed me to exercise at home. And for comfort, I could even have the fan pointed at me all the time, and I had the shower just steps away. :3 It's really fun, and the best thing is that you don't really need motivation.
There are steps that you need to do -now-. The game forces you to exercise in a fun, immersive way. And it's a pretty effective cardio exercise that won't build up muscle in an unpleasant way. Just make sure you stretch before and after, or you could get seriously painful calves ~
You don't even need a console. There are DDR-like games for PCs (http://www.ddrpcgamer.com/Dance-Dance-Revolution-computer.htm), and a mat can be pretty cheap. Order it through the Internet, and you're ready to go~ If you have an Xbox, Wii, Xbox 360, Playstation 2 or Playstation 3, though, of course, there are the actual games. The older ones can be crazy cheap, too.
As for psychologists... For one, I think I can pretty safely say that you probably won't get another one like that. It's amazing that one even exists and has a licence. The vast majority of psychologists are at least not harmful.
I think your best bet, if you have a good "shopping pool", is to go for one who has a good amount of experience with gender issues, so they know what you're going through and understand it, but doesn't necessarily specialise in them in particular, so they don't strictly go "gender gender gender gender" and lead you to think that gender issues are the only one thing that's wrong and that you can't work on anything else.
That's most probably just as wrong as GID being a secondary, background problem and that you need to settle everything else before you even start to address it.
Quote from: muuu on October 26, 2012, 12:50:42 PM
I like when bones are visible... so well, it's kind of a synonym to skinny...
Like this: http://imgur.com/mtfLn,zWe5F,Ruhe0,0eFHY#0 (http://imgur.com/mtfLn,zWe5F,Ruhe0,0eFHY#3)
wow, big fan of the look, but it reminds me of the stuff I used to use as thinspo...
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im rather skinny as well, being ftm I wished I didnt had such wide hips.
I have generally no fat there and still there wide, people say I just should lose weight but I am already on the limit to be underweight + that being skinny just show my hip bones.
now im on homones it been helping alot, I did lose the fat I had on the hip and moved to my stomach I also got wider shoulders by working out. my hips are still wide but when you compare it to my shoulder then you dont see it.
The same will pretty much happent for you if you start just opposite, your shoulders probably wouldnt be much smaller, unless you got mucles there and you lose mucle mass. but your hips would get wider and it would help on the general look.
I am not just talking about "getting fat" its more about where you fat is going to get, females manly has more fat on there hips and men has more fat on ther stomach. the whole shape thing might not be much no a size matter but its more an ilusion fact.
ex: if your have more fat on your hips then your shoulders atomatically seams smaller cause people compare your whole look together.
I dont know if this helps but I dont think you should give up right away, I seen girls who had pretty wide hips as well, one girl from my last school where cis and her shoulders where very wide and she had pretty much no hops, I was sort of jelous actually. so having wide shoulders isnt just a transthing, ciswomen can also have that. I guess we all have parts we hate, I always hated my face cause its extremly female,
I do pass for my voice and for not having any boobs but if I am covered in a big jacket and I dont speak I can still be misgendered for my soft features. I cant really help it only thing is I must try to focus on some other points, I focus alot on my hair then because it can make my face look smaller depending on the haircut.
I hope its a help even if im just rambling.
wish you all the best,
Why do you need a reason? Just call to cancel your appointment because you can't, don't take another, and go to another therapist, if you feel like doing it that way. If you want to tell her why, just say you've found someone more aligned with you.
And... if you can look at those pictures without thinking "she's sick; she'll die", yeah, looks like you have all the fun of anorexia going for you... I can't even figure out where her organs go if she's so thin she can literally grab herself with her hand.
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Since you are Swedish have you tried to be a part of some online groups ex like Trans Öresund on fb or
asked advice for RFSL?
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Yeah, group therapies don't work for everyone. They were uncomfortable and hardly useful for me.
In that case, you could tell her that you don't feel that she's helping you as much as you'd like; that you might not be so compatible; that you'd like to look into the possibility of seeing someone else. She should understand.
(Hah, 3 months, sounds good. I'm not sure, but I think it was just below two years for me to get one. Well, there are the private ones at 40 (beginner) - 100+ $, but the delay for a free one is more or less that. :p And I sure can't afford a private psychologist. That's because those right-wing governments want to keep a "public health system" but don't invest enough in it, so it slowly degrades. At the same time, there's the population getting old, and they're mostly investing in stuff for those instead of the rest. Yay for simple-mindedness!)
Quote from: muuu on October 28, 2012, 08:05:44 AM
I'm really not comfortable with anyone, been suggested to try to contact some transgroup or RFSL... but I just really can't be around anyone. I'll just start thinking about what everyone else might be thinking, and get even more self conscious over my looks. Especially if this somebody would know I'm trans, it'd way more painful, because uhm, I bring sadness over them or something....
do you have bad experience by groups?
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I just wonder if they got a hotline or something.
one thing is whatever you want to go be social or feel confortable around,
another thing is how it would be practical and maybe give you some contacts or advice who is hard to find by your own.
if you call a line like that they wouldnt expect anything from you, neither to jugde you.
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Quote from: muuu on October 28, 2012, 05:10:42 AM
Sorry if it's triggering >.< ... it's some of my favourit thinspo pics. I just can't stop looking at them, even if it just makes me feel worse about myself -.-
I've been thinking about how I should ask her (my current "therapist") to see another psychologist/psychiatrist... but I can't come up with a good way without seeming stupid and needy.
I just need a really good reason with logic behind it, one that doesn't make me seem dumb :s
I've really hesitated before responding to this thread - partly because i don't want to say the wrong thing, partly because i know that what I say is likely to bounce off you like a ping-pong ball off a brick wall and partly because this whole subject is profoundly distressing to me. But I feel I have to say something because, Muuu, your life is in danger ...
You are anorexic. You may say that you're at 18 BMI but (a) that's still not a really healthy weight and (b) I wouldn't believe it unless I saw you on the scales, just in your undies, without being anywhere near a tap or a glass in the past two hours.
I learned what anorexics are like the hard way - watching my daughter starve herself down to 70lbs (32kg), seeing a beautiful, lively, brilliant girl transformed into a listless, balding, suicidal skeleton. She recovered, thank God, though the damage to her bones and reproductive system will almost certainly be permanent and irreversible ... and even when she was in hospital - where she stayed for five months - she was denying she had a problem, faking her weight and her food intake, lying, stealing, doing absolutely anything she could to protect the voice inside her telling her to kill herself.
And you sound just like her.
YOU MUST GET HELP
You seem to be suffering from a toxic combination of depression, suicidal thoughts, food anxieties, weight fixation and obsessive fascination with extreme thinness.
I think, at this point, that the immediate need is to deal with that. I mean, get you on a proper, supervised eating programme that will prevent the organ failure to which you may well be heading. Once that's been stabilised, then you can see whether transition can be of any help to you. But here's the thing, women are not defined by bones. They are defined by fat. It is fat that fills out a feminine face; that gives a woman her breasts, her hips, her thighs, the smooth, soft line of her limbs.
Anorexia is a denial of femaleness, not an embracing of it.
I don't want to sound harsh, or nagging, or intrusive. But I've seen what anorexia is like at close quarters and it is an ugly, angry, violent, hateful disease. I absolutely beg you, please - for your own sake - seek medical and psychiatric help before it is too late.
PS: One final thing ... anorexia, like gender identity disorder is something that lots of doctors and therrapists think they know about, but almost none really do. So make sure that you deal with an expert. And here's how you know you've found one: they look exhausted and admit they don't know exactly what causes anorexia and cannot promise a cure for it. Plus, they don't fall for any of your bull->-bleeped-<-, because - trust me -they've heard it all before. Find a doctor like that and don't ever let go of them because they could bring you back to real life.
Quote from: muuu on October 29, 2012, 08:27:11 AM
I've always felt like a burden in groups, and there's so many things I have to think about (what are they thinking about, looking and if I stand/sit in a strange way or look weird and so on). I don't know about calling, I just get really nervous when I have to call somewhere (To a doctor, a service provider etc)... and actually asking about personal (Online is different thoug, because nobody can see or hear me) things is even worse >.<
Thing is though, if I'd say something like "I'd like to have contact with a psychologist/psychiatrist because of <reason>", then she'd maybe ask what I'd expect from it and what made me think of it... There are just so many things I have to think trough.
I think supour groups can be great but they can also be a big step if your already nervous about speaking on the phone.
Maybe theres a way you can email some?
no matter what I think you should need someone to guide and help you cause you cant really deal with it by yourself, you need someone who can be our right hand to help you with all this.
Quote from: muuu on October 29, 2012, 08:27:11 AM
Thing is though, if I'd say something like "I'd like to have contact with a psychologist/psychiatrist because of <reason>", then she'd maybe ask what I'd expect from it and what made me think of it... There are just so many things I have to think trough.
You're overthinking it. You don't have to think of anything. "I just told you. I don't really feel we're compatible. And part of the consequences of this is that I don't really feel comfortable telling you of the details." If she's anything like a real therapist, she'll understand.
Overthinking stuff is dangerous with that personality of yours - I know because mine isn't all that different. At some point you'll go all "it's too complicated, I'm not doing it". I've made that mistake. It delayed my transition by months, maybe even a year if I add it up. But for you, you do realise that consequences could be much worse than just a delay, right? Depression and anorexia can have a much steeper curve upwards than gender dysphoria alone.
By the way, if it's easier online, there are support chat lines just for that, just like there are hotlines. The people there are just as good as the ones on the phone, and it's in the comfortable environment of a keyboard and screen. Plus, some of them, depending on the place, are actually professionals to some extent, even.
To find one, just look up on the Internet some phone hotlines you have heard about from your area. Many, many hotlines of all kinds have caught up to technology and opened up an Internet chat service on their website. Simple as that. If by some bad luck, you can't find any that way, well, I trust your Googling skills are good. The good thing about the Internet is that distance doesn't matter. It's just plain impossible that you can't find any English support chat to get some help.
And don't belittle this idea. Sometimes, just speaking (or typing - the same) to someone, live, and receiving support, even if you already knew all the advice given, even if logically it shouldn't have helped, makes you feel much better. It's the case for me, at least. And it's not even that likely that it'll be the only good side to it.
And if you'd like to speak with a few people instead of a 1:1 chat, well, I'm not there often at all, but the IRC channel here, I believe, always has some nice people.
And uhm... I seriously hope Carlita is wrong. But if she isn't, if there's really truth in what she's saying, if it relates to you, well, I agree with her. You know, once you start lying - especially if you lie to yourself - about a problem, it's usually a huge sign that it's a serious one. It's important to act before you manage to convince yourself that the problem isn't really one. Way too many people do or have done that, and I'm one of them. Once you're there, it's so very hard to get out of the hole. And when the problem is a really serious one, it can get very ugly.
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Step zero. Not even one, because it's even more important than that. NEVER THINK YOU'RE BOTHERING YOUR THERAPISTS. EVER. They seriously have nothing to complain about compared to you. Their only purpose is to help you. And you'll make them help. Understood? When you're low, you don't even have the right not to be selfish, when it comes to solving your issues.
Step one. When you don't have the strength to seek help, it's okay to ask someone to seek help for you. You don't have much to do. Hello, I need help. Four words. As I said, don't overthink it. Most of life is much easier than you figure it to be. And this is one of the best examples. They're pros. Unless you literally flee the appointment (because I very much hope you won't), they'll know how to get the rest out of you.
Step two. Go to your appointments and tell them about the distress you're feeling. Or hey, why not just print this topic out? When I felt overwhelmed about telling a therapist about an issue, I did that often. I printed a topic from Susans.
Step three. Whenever you think you've eaten enough, add something. Force yourself to add something. You don't have the right to leave the table without eating an extra something. The exact same as people who eat too much, inverted.
Step four. Stop thinking that super skinny is good. I know you can't change your opinions so easily. But believe in the power of self-suggestion. Don't allow yourself to word it, mentally or literally, that you'd like to be skinny, that you wish you could be skinny, etc. You reinforce your bad thoughts when you do that, even though you don't realise it. Even, once in a while, say it out loud; write it, the contrary, even if you don't think it: "A bit of fat is good." "Skeleton-thin is disgusting."
I know it sounds silly. But I also know it always works to some extent. You know you need to change your convictions. It won't happen overnight, but little by little, by doing the smallest of things and putting some will in it, you'll achieve something.
Take things step by step. Small step by small step. Stuff becomes easy when you do so. Do it the kiddy way if you must. Write them on a chart.
You can see it this way, metaphorically. You're stuck in a room. A huge boulder is in the way. You know only you can get out of that room. You won't die there. But you need to get out absolutely. You don't have a bomb or anything, but this place was a storehouse and you have a huge crate of hammers. Even if you wanted to kill yourself, you couldn't. A bad joke of fate made you immortal. (The reason for this last statement is that suicide is never an option. The way I see it, no one knows what lies after death. If you're depressed enough to think of suicide, you should be negative enough to envision that after death lies nothing but an eternal reliving of your issues, but worse. If it can be anything, it can certainly be the worst.)
You have two options:
a) Do nothing
b) Start hitting the boulder with a hammer
Option a) is meaningless; you'll just go crazy out of solitude. Option b) will take you a huge amount of time, but you know that every hit of your hammer brings you closer to the exit.
Even if you don't have a final solution, always do a little something for your problems, daily. That extra bite after every meal, for example, will be your hammer hits.
And get a good multivitamin. Until you eat right, it'll ensure you have your essential stuff. You know, many nutrients, when you lack them, can amplify and even cause depressive and anxious symptoms. Put all the odds on your side. (I personally recommend Women's Ultra Mega if you're in the US, for all the extra little stuff they add. But don't get the canadian version. A rip-off without the little cool extras and at three times the price.)
Finally, if all seems completely hopeless, you always have the last resort option. Going to the hospital, saying you're super depressive and suicidal and anorexic. They'll take you in, ensure you can't kill yourself, force you to eat right, and make you see professionals for your issues. I was at the hospital twice for reasons comparable to this, and both times it helped me a ton. Having them take care of everything for you, if only that, is a huge help. You don't have to worry about anything but you. And they even help you do it. And the best thing is that it's not even hard to do. You walk there, talk to someone and sit down, then follow instructions. If you're so anxious you don't even want to go there, you call and they send that funny little truck with a red light on it.
Edit: By the way, I've been posting on two threads these last days. You might want to give it a look. I think there's some advice that could apply to you.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,128856.msg1020774.html#new (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,128856.msg1020774.html#new)
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It's pretty simple, though. What a therapist is going to accomplish is help you find such things less important; to focus on what's actually meanningful in life. The problem is not that you don't have hips; it's that you think having hips is so crucial.
And by the way, gaining weight while on HRT will put fat on your hips, giving you quite a bit more of a female shape.
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Yeah, but thing is, it isn't. Look at Aeris' blog. She's just starting to get hips. Yet do you think she doesn't pass? Hips are a good thing, but to say they're capital is silly. You can pass just fine even with zero of them. And if it kills you that much, there are implants you can get eventually.
And that HRT won't have enough effect... Oh yeah? What tells you that? I've seen a lot of pretty impressive results. And even though I'm 21 already and my E dose is way too low, my actual bones have widened a bit. I can tell, since I've been losing weight rather than gaining some.
But of course, HRT can't do anything to you unless you EAT.
Finally, the very first step you're going to have to take if you want to feel better is to accept that you are wrong. It may be hard to dispose of those thoughts, but accept that they need to change. Don't say "it's important". Say "I have trouble letting go of the importance I put on hips".
You can see it this way. There is a problem caused by two things:
1. You absolutely want hips
2. You don't have hips
Assuming you can't do anything about point 2 - which, as I said above, isn't entirely true - the only way to resolve the conflict is to work on point 1.
Focusing on point 2 would be like trying to move a wall when the other thing causing the conflict is your trajectory -- Go elsewhere; that's a freaking wall!
Listen, we all have things we thought were absolutely necessary to our appearance, that we would never pass without, that we couldn't live without. Not just trans people. To become happy, you must be able to look at the brighter things and see that the big picture isn't so dark, and that most of the other aspects are much easier to brighten.
If you're willing to be happy, then stop doing the things that do nothing but make you unhappy. That's how adults cope with life.
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And that's precisely what a therapist should help you with. What on Earth are you afraid of? It's not like they'll worsen things.
And the very least I know when it comes to anorexia is never to believe them when they say they look fat. Because for them, near-death-slim is healthy-looking.
And the very least I know about depressed transsexuals is never to believe them when they say nothing about their body is feminine.
And the very least I know about everything is that there is always a bright side, and a way to brighten things up. Both of those.
What shocks me the most about you isn't how depressed you are, but how determined you are to make yourself as unhappy as possible and refuse all help.
(If you want to disprove anything I've said above, my PM box is open for a picture. But be prepared; I might do something terrible: see the good stuff! I hope you don't turn to ash like a vampire exposed to sunlight!)
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Quote from: muuu on October 31, 2012, 08:22:11 AM
well, when I got to this "GID team", they wanted to do some testing (intelligence, personality... and a whole lot more tests including roshak) and some background check ups (eh, asking about my childhood and such). They were satisfied with the tests and agreed I had "GID", and the main doctor person also said that I "scored very high" on AvPD ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder) ), and that those tests were enough to give a diagnosis.... but I'm not sure if they actually officially gave me one....
I hope this might make it easier to understand why I'm scared of asking my therapist for anything...
I know it might be annoying to have to listen to the same things over and over, and I'm sorry for that. but yeah... I just can't deal with things.
i'm also very scared of therapist, not by any disorder but I just had bad experience in my past.
I dont think I can say much who already been said, but just work out little by little,
its not easy to seach help and to help yourself but you has to be struborn cause it worth to try.
When things are going wrong in your life, try changing "Why should I try that?" for "Why should I not try that?"
You'll agree with me that at this point, it can only go up. Plus, I don't know for you, but for me, it's always reassuring that instead of me having to make my life better, I can put myself in someone else's hands who will take care of guiding me on the right way.
Quote from: muuu on October 31, 2012, 03:48:31 AM
There's not a single thing on me that is feminine, I guess my feet are ok, but I can't build a life around just my feet. Yeah, you can pass without much hips, if it looks somewhat proportionate with the rest of your body. (I'm sorry... I couldn't find Aeris blog)
I may seem childish, but I'm 22 (and a half), and my bones won't change at all, even if they would change a tiny bit, it's not enough to make any difference. I can't gain weight, because I already look really fat, not obese but at least overweight. Maybe it sounds strange, but you'd be shocked if you actually saw me.
There isn't a bright side and I can't just ignore everything that is wrong, I guess there wouldn't be a picture at all then. How the hell am I supposed to be happy? I don't have any interests and there's nothing that makes me happy, the only thing that I care about are the things that are wrong.
Nothing is entirely hopeless. There are other options as far as body mods go. Hip implants. Fat grafts. Tight-lacing. But you're going to need some help with fixing your distorted self-perception anyway. You aren't overweight. You can't be at that BMI. It is a physical impossibility.
There is a disconnect between what you are seeing and what is actually there. This kind of thing isn't super uncommon among trans folks. A lot of us have distorted self-perception. The anorexia is just going to compound it. It can be changed over time. But it takes work.
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Quote from: muuu on October 31, 2012, 02:12:02 PM
I do want help, but I'm too scared to ask for it... ...really too scared to ask for it. My next meeting is in a week, and maybe I won't dare to ask then either and the next week goes the same and so on.
Even if I do managed to ask her, it'll maybe take 3 months, just to get there... like, I don't think I can deal with things for that long.
I get it. I spent 3 years lying to a therapist because I was too scared to ask for help. And when I finally did, he didn't help at all. So it can be bad, sure. But it can also be good. When I finally saw a gender therapist, she was really nice and helpful and it was super easy and smooth. Therapists are people, some are pretty cool, some are not.
You need to find a way to bring the fear down. If they can't help, you can see a different therapist. And they are bound by confidentiality, so there isn't really a lot they can do to hurt you. And if they say something awful, then come back here and tell us, and we'll tell you they are stupid.
Maybe write down what you want to say before? I did that. And then if you are still just too scared to say anything, hand them the note at the end of the session. That way the scary thing is broken up into pieces: writing the note, then giving the note, then getting the reaction. No one thing is too big.
And I mean, you don't have a ton to lose, right? How bad can asking them for help really be? Living with this stuff in your own head is pretty much always harder anyway.
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You don't need to be skinny. You think you do. Not the same.
Now, who cares about how pathetic you look to your therapist, of all people? That's the one person who would never judge you. Even, it's the one person you should even be eager to look pathetic to.
And you already wrote about your problems. Print this topic. Job done. Now you just need to bring it to your appointment and put it on the desk (without a word if you want) at the appointment. Then everything is done, and you can just sit back until she talks to you about it.
It's so simple. Come on, you just need to grab your courage with both hands. A print, a paper in your pocket, a paper on the desk. Three steps. Or does your therapist have an email address? Even easier. Print as PDF, or paste link, then about 4 clicks. Done! If you're too scared, I can even do it for you if you give me the address. Simple and easy.
And you just know there's nothing bad that can come out of this. So make relaying the message to her your priority number one; your one big challenge; the ONE thing you must accomplish. You can do it. You know you can. It's not even remotely complicated.
sounds like we have alot in common. but you have to figure out how to start being ok with yourself. and how to deal with your body in a + way. i use to be a hater and - and then figured out that and my eating disorder was just bad news. once you can let go some of the bad then you can start to live and be happy. it truely does feel good my sister.
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Quote from: muuu on November 01, 2012, 12:02:13 PM
I think I'm even too scared to actually kill myself, so I guess there's no danger for that to actually happen
Honestly, I hope this fear stays with you. Death is not the right answer.
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there is nothing you can do about your bones, it is what it is.
There's no way you can't be seen as female. Even some sixty-year-old, balding, unhealthy, tall, muscular, etc. people manage to pass pretty decent.
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Whiiiiich is whyyyyy you neeeeeeeeed a therapist to whom you can talk. Come on, don't you agree it's silly to give up before even trying to take care of the issue?
By the way, do you have someone close to you who knows about your issues? You might bring that person to your appointment. They'll speak when you're scared to. I used to bring my mother to the doctor and psychologist, and it helped.
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Liiiiike Iiiiii saaaaaid. How about you stop saying that you can't do anything? There are solutions. "I'm having trouble resolving this" is the correct formulation. I told you, saying negative stuff nurtures negativity.
Sometimes I get a little obsessed with my shape and critique every little part. Almost like a BDD kind of mindset for a short period of time..
Through all of this I have had to balance out the pros and cons of different solutions and have come to these realizations:
#1- I am not Karolina Kurkova and there is not way for me to NATURALLY have her figure.
#2- I can't control proportions and fat distribution, but I can fill in the problem areas by gaining weight, sadly I will gain weight in all parts of my body.
#3- I can be in between skinny and a little thicker to get a CLOSE balance.
#4- I can save up my money and get Lipo-Sculpture and Breast Implants.
Currently I am sure I want Lipo-Sculpture and possibly breast implants. It's one of those things where I want it now, but I can't have it and It may come in the future when the funds are available.
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How about no? Just pick the damned phone and call. ._. Seriously, either you're exaggerating, either you're at the point you need to be picked up in an ambulance and brought to intensive care. And if it's the latter, do it, for the love of god. Too scared? I can even do it for you if I have the appropriate info.
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Quote from: muuuI just want somebody to tell me it's ok, it's ok for me to die now.
It's not OK to die, I know how hard it can be. Deep depression is a scary place to be and it seems hopeless, but trust me, it's not hopeless! There is always hope!
I was scared of going to therapist, I was scared to tell my parents anything, I was scared of anyone judging me, even complete strangers. I had extreme social anxiety, I was scared of even shaking hands with someone!
It gets better sister, it really does, you just need to take it one step at a time, trust that you will make it out of the hole and be who you've always wanted, just trust it. It might seem like you are unsure of the destination, but thats what getting help is all about, you don't need to know where your going you just need to start walking!
If you want someone to talk to, send me a PM if you use MSN or Gmail, or something similar. I won't judge, I've been there.
It will be OK!
Please try your best to go to call your nearest mental health clinic as soon as possible and tell them you need to see someone as soon as possible, they will understand. They usually know what that means, just be honest!
No one in their right mind will ever tell you it's okay to die. Even, I forbid you to die, out of selfishness, because I'll feel awfully guilty of having tried to help you and failed, letting you kill yourself.
Now that that's said... Are you even reading what I write you? You're not even trying. Geez. "I'll never be okay". That's not true and if you think it is, it just means you have an urgent need for help.
I'm going to put it very simply since you're not listening.
1. Pick up phone
2. Dial 911
3. Say you're suicidal, and your address.
And in less than an hour, you'll be in good hands, and they WILL make you okay. They will. How about you trust people, once in a while, if you can't trust yourself? If you have low self-esteem, you just must have the ability to see that there exists people who are competent. It's the basics of low self-esteem. If you put yoursself down, you're below others, and thus there are people above.
I'm not kidding. If you're gonna have the energy to harm yourself, then use it to pick up the damned phone.
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You are allowed some distraction. Depending on the place, you can probably have a computer or portable DVD player. Or books, at the very least. Reading feels awesome when you haven't been doing it for a while. And razors are allowed. Electric razors, you're able to use them alone, privately. They might just knock on the door to check if you're okay if it's been a while.
You can know what there is in the food. You ask, and they ask, and they come back with the answer. You can ask for the whole details with each meals. You can specify what you want to eat and what you don't want to eat. You don't have to eat amongst others. And there's probably a way to have your own room, even.
And geez, you're more okay with dying than hospitalisation? In all honesty, I have to say: you're not making sense. And it's not even bad to be hospitalised. The two times I was hospitalised, apart from the few annoyances like having to bring your shampoo and all to the shower and back and having to ask for extra blankets because they only ever bring so few, it was really comfortable to me. I liked it a lot.
I think you like very much to find excuses and reasons not to try everything, because you don't want to admit to yourself that yes, there is a solution. Because then you'd feel guilty for saying there was none. But it's still much better to admit being wrong than to continue rotting.
And of course anything negative is gonna be more convincing than someone trying to help you: you're depressed, geez! It's the very essence of depression to see the bad stuff as bigger and more convincing than the rest. The first step to getting out of this is to make an effort and say "it doesn't sound like it, but I'll admit the possibility that they're right". Else you're just being stubborn in hurting yourself. You have to understand that whatever you to get better, it's good. And whatever you try - pick at random if you want to, as long as it's not obviously self-harm - is better than staying as you are.
Quote from: muuu on November 06, 2012, 02:42:31 PM
How did you manage to get trough?
what steps did you take? Like, what kind of people did you see, what happened?
My journey was very long and painful, I wish someone told me what I'm saying right now, I spent years suffering in silence and often contemplated suicide.
At a certain age, I decided, it's time to do something. Time to tell someone I have a problem. So I told friends and family, they didn't know how to react, so I went to a therapist but I was so much in denial that I closed off even the therapist.
But I made changes in my life, most importantly, your body and mind are linked, the better you feel physically, the better you will feel mentally. So exercise and proper eating was the first step on the road, I got really into fitness and that helped me start to feel really good about myself.
And this isn't for everyone but I went on a religious/spiritual journey, through many different belief systems, I meditated, I studied mystical poetry, religious texts, searching for some kind of meaning, something to give my life purpose. I finally became Muslim and it was like a light shun into my heart, my depression and anxiety for the most part, just disappeared.
My journey was very personal, so it might not apply to everyone, but I wish I was more open with my therapist and actually talked about my problems rather than walling myself off, I could of saved myself many lost years of suffering.
The first and most important step is admitting to yourself you need to do something, that is the hardest but most important part.
I hope this helps!
Good luck.
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I hated my body. I thought I would never be able to live with it. I hated tons of aspects of it. I shut myself into my basement and computer because I thought that if I could never live with my body, I might as well make my life virtual. Pretty similar to you, except I was obese and you're sickly.
And then I lost weight. And then I started HRT. And then I got into therapy. All that is making me be more okay with the things I hate; to dislike them instead of hating them. And at the same time, as I lost weight and HRT did its work, my body got better.
You need to stop, like I stubbornly used to do, thinking that you'll never be able to live with your body because you hate it too much. Both your body and your mind are much more flexible (and I don't mean contorsionism) than you think. If you faithfully invest yourself into therapy; if you eat healthily enough for HRT to be able to do something to your body, you will see 1. your body and 2. your opinion of the parts you dislike get better.
It was easier for me because I had my mother with me to see the problem and kick my butt to the psychiatrist's office. Even if you don't have that, it's entirely possible for you to get better, too. The only thing is that you need to convince yourself that yes, there is a solution, and that no, you won't feel this way forever. And to kick your own butt. Or slap. Requires less contorsionism. Anyway. You get the message. It's a bit harder, yes. But you can do it.
There was a discussion on that in another thread; about how young female gymnasts who train a lot and maintain their body fat percentage too low during puberty don't develop breasts or anything, don't start menstruating until much later, and retain a rather boyish figure. Now is your second puberty. You shouldn't ruin it in the same way those athletes ruin their own one and only puberty. That starts with EATING.
And. That you just can't dispute it, anorexic or not. If you're not gonna eat right, at least get a good multivitamin! It's the third time I've said it now.
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It's not as long as you think. If you watch anime, your day flies. xD Similarly, getting into a good book can take more than half of your day away.
Anyway. What to eat? Simple. Rice. Two cups of water; one cup of rice. Simmer for half an hour. Get the brown one; more nutritious. Frozen vegetables. Easy as heck to prepare. Apples. Rinse; eat. Milk. Cereal. Juice. Oatmeal. Bread. Even frigging canned soup; that's much better than nothing. Whole grain pasta and canned sauce; two ingredients for a fairly nutritious meal. Add a can of beans and it's magically a good source of protein. It's really simple.
And no, you're not fat. You need to tell yourself that it's your illness that's making you see things like that. Making you distort your own body image. Maybe there's a little flab on the stomach. If you do a little bit of exercise to burn the little bit of "wrong" fat there is while still eating enough, the fat will gradually move to your hips and breasts and stuff.
And seriously, how can you forget to take the multivitamin? You just take it with the rest of your pills. They do say to take it apart from other medications, but it's not the end of the world if you don't, I think. If you really forget, put an alarm on your phone or computer.
And you have to know that anorexics are not happy; give them all the hipbones you want. They think they are, maybe, even though generally they just want to be more and more sickly until they're nothing but bones - and even then, they wish they could lose the bones. And then everything is blown away when their health crumbles. It's the basics of the basics.
It's easy to say "if only" and put all of your woes on one thing; to say that if only that one thing was otherwise, you would be happy. You really believe in it. You think everyone just doesn't understand; that they're idiots for disagreeing. I thought the same. But it's only later that you'll understand how silly that was; how you wouldn't be much better off even if that one problem vanished.
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You have to force yourself. The same way people who are obese have to force themselves not to eat enough for their appetite, your eating cycle or whatever it's called is disrupted. You'll need to make an effort for a good week until your body starts telling you when to eat again. And yes, you'll probably dislike it a lot in the beginning, just like obeses are all "I'm going to die! I need more food! I'm feeling faint!" when they start dieting.
But you know, you don't have to schedule it per se. It's what most people do because it's practical to do so, but as long as you eat all you need daily, it's fine. Be it in 10 snacks or one huge meal. Though the one huge meal might be hard on digestion, but that's another story. So yeah. Focus on eating enough daily. If you want, you can schedule actual meals like people usually do, but it's not necessary.
And uhm... It's quite a minority of anorexics who are happy, if you ask me. Anorexia is much more widespread than those "thinspo" people. I would be really surprised if those who are like that are 5 % of all anorexics. Most of them look in the mirror, hate how they're fat, lose weight, still see themselves as fat, etc. They hate themselves to the bitter end. Of course, not every anorexic is the same, but you get the idea. Until they eventually start fainting at school or something like that and brought to the hospital by force.
And even those "thinspo" people... I'm not an expert, but I don't think they're so happy. They post their pictures to mark their progress, or something, the way I see it. Like some do for their transition. Except anorexics don't have a measurable goal. They want to get to a point where they stop thinking they're fat, which probably never happens, or just get as thin as humanly possible while staying alive. Something like that. They may be happier, somewhat, when they're sickly thin, but the issue stays. And it has disastrous short- and long-term consequences on their health.
In all honesty, I think a decent part of your distress/depression is directly from not eating well. You can't bring yourself to do anything, you say... Heard of anemia? It's malfunctioning red cells. It can have a lot of causes, but the most common ones are the lack of vitamin B12 and the lack of iron. As a vegetarian who seriously doesn't cook/eat well often enough, I have anemia these months. Probably B12, but I'm not sure.
Anyway. Well, just that one small aspect of not eating well enough has consequences for me. I lack energy, especially at the end of the day, my physical endurance is meh and my aunt recently told me I looked sick pale. I haven't looked up the consequences of lacking every nutrient that you lack, but if you ate well, I'm sure you'd be surprised by how much better you feel.
Lastly, people who show off how thin they are, if they're really happy, there's a chance they're not anorexics. They could be simply one of those people who are naturally underweight. But well, I'm no expert on anorexia.
This whole thread has basically been you counteracting A's advice and whatnot, and not actually doing what would be good for you.
You have to help yourself, you can't expect people to give a flying eff, but if some do, that's great, you still have to pull yourself up.
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In all honesty, seeing how I take two pills of a multivitamin containing iron and B12 daily, make effort to always get whole grains, get B12-enriched soy milk etc. and still have anemia, you, who barely eats anything, are almost sure to have anemia. Amongst many other things...
As for not enjoying stuff, may I remind you that many nutrients, when lacking, can make depression worse, or actually cause it? I meant anemia as an example, but malnutrition has many, many physical and psychological effects and I don't know half of them..
And uhm. Today isn't over, is it? Start with an apple or something, come on ~
Vitamins in pill form can be toxic. (Fuhrman) I am a whole foods vegan and take only a SINGLE multi-vitamin. I get B-12 from nutritional yeast. Food is your best medicine.
I'd love to get all of my vitamins from food, but ya know, this is better than nothing. I just don't have the time and energy to cook all the time, especially since it takes me longer than most.
And well, what I take is a single multi-vitamin too. It's just written to take two a day on the package. o:
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Congratulations ! This is one concrete step in helping yourself. Now I bet you feel like it'll be easier to do the rest.
muuu, considering your initial post in this topic. I didn't read all the rest.
You shouldn't fixate yourself too much on your bones.
There are genetic women that have sturdy skeletons too.
I'm very well built in this regard and I don't care, I actually
prefer it that way. It makes my body less fragile and I kinda
enjoy that in a male body I have now (one of the few things I'm fine with).
Not only that, but I actually find larger (but not fat) women hot.
I don't like models all that much and yes, I am bi.
Other than that my body is very androgynous though, due to hormonal "issues".
Anyways, my point is: if you want others to accept you
as a woman, you first have to accept yourself as a woman.
Suicide is not an answer, only transition is. Talking out of
personal experience here.
On hating your body: we all do in our original bodies.
Just see your body as a workpiece. A caterpillar that will become a butterfly one day.
That's how I see my body now and it makes me a lot happier.