Is Roseanne anti-transgender? Her explantion refers to Nazis, NAMBLA, misogyny from GLBTQ critics
Posted by duy |
October 29, 2012 5:15 AM
http://www.metroweekly.com/news/last_word/2012/10/is-roseanne-against-transgenders-her-explantion-re.html (http://www.metroweekly.com/news/last_word/2012/10/is-roseanne-against-transgenders-her-explantion-re.html)
This past weekend, outspoken comedian Rosanne Barr found herself as the target of derision from some in the transgender community. Roseanne, a very active user of Twitter, posted a series of messages regarding transgender women, Green Party Presidential candidate Jill Stein, and the case of a transgender woman using a sauna.
[...]
Roseanne blogged about her latest controversy on Sunday. She apologized for some of her "angry and offensive" reactions, then added that she was shocked by the amount of "sexist words" directed at her by "quite a few Transwomen." She issued a challenge to the gay and trans communities to tackle their alleged misogyny.
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Oct 28
Some GLBTQ Activists are Complaining about My Campaign
By Roseanne
http://www.roseanneworld.com/blog/2012/10/some-glbtq-activists-are-complaining-about-my-campaign/ (http://www.roseanneworld.com/blog/2012/10/some-glbtq-activists-are-complaining-about-my-campaign/)
Some GLBTQ activists are complaining about my campaign (without asking me to explain anything-jumping to conclusions after a lifetime of being an advocate for GLBTQ rights)-due to the purposeful mis-characterization of some tweets I sent. Some of them were indeed angry and offensive, and I have apologized for them. I was taken off balance by being called vicious and vile sexist words by quite a few Transwomen, who began a full campaign against me. It shocked me deeply, as a humanist activist feminist, children's rights proponent, and candidate.
I want the entire GLBTQ community to view what was said to me and I'm compiling it. Then they can decide what they support. At one time in my life, 1978, I along with other women confronted the GL groups over their decision to include the group Nambla in their platform, and after we registered our disgust, they took a fair look at the facts, and were progressive enough to understand that their inclusion of that group would not be politically advantageous to their struggle. I feel that misogyny within their own ranks needs to be dealt with and called out now too-when they are depending on women's support for ALL GLBTQ issues, including marriage equality.
A pre-op should not IMHO be naked in public womens area's like a shower etc. In a stall or clothed where the genitals are not exposed is a totally different story. If that is what happened, I see nothing wrong with women complaining about it. The females should not "be removed" and no, it's not transphobic IMHO to have that reaction.
I agree. I would be understandably uncomfortable for the other women if a trans woman was walking around with her genitalia exposed. Just my opinion.
I wouldn't want to see anyone naked no matter who they are.
Quote from: Laura91 on October 29, 2012, 02:30:49 PM
I wouldn't want to see anyone naked no matter who they are.
Unless you're asexual, I don't think that can be true.
As for Roseanne, pre-op trans women in a men's locker room is the only alternative. I don't think I need to explain what would be potentially dangerous about that. Either way, someone is going to be uncomfortable. Here's how I see it: It's easier to hide a penis, shrunken from HRT, from sight than to hide an entire person. Therefore, trans women should be allowed into women's locker rooms. If you don't like it, don't stare at her genitals.
For example, I don't wear underwear and the guys in the locker room get bugged out about my penis, even though I'm in the corner covering it, so they actually have to try to see it. Not my fault if they take a peek. Plus, a lot of them are fat and I don't think they're a pleasant sight. Does that mean that I want them to be kicked out of the room? No. I just won't look. I know that that was a strange comparison, but it's valid. As for Roseanne's Nazi comparison? Not so much. I'm glad she won't be president any time soon.
Quote from: DianaP on October 29, 2012, 02:58:39 PM
Unless you're asexual, I don't think that can be true.
As for Roseanne, pre-op trans women in a men's locker room is the only alternative. I don't think I need to explain what would be potentially dangerous about that. Either way, someone is going to be uncomfortable. Here's how I see it: It's easier to hide a penis, shrunken from HRT, from sight than to hide an entire person. Therefore, trans women should be allowed into women's locker rooms. If you don't like it, don't stare at her genitals.
For example, I don't wear underwear and the guys in the locker room get bugged out about my penis, even though I'm in the corner covering it, so they actually have to try to see it. Not my fault if they take a peek. Plus, a lot of them are fat and I don't think they're a pleasant sight. Does that mean that I want them to be kicked out of the room? No. I just won't look. I know that that was a strange comparison, but it's valid. As for Roseanne's Nazi comparison? Not so much. I'm glad she won't be president any time soon.
stuff like HRT for sure shrinking genitalia is NOT for sure, and people should be honest and stop saying that.
Is it more likely on HRT? Yes Does it always happen? No, far from it, and in fact, there have been many posters who've said that HRT did zip to kill their libido.
so, yah, no hate, but I totally see why stuff like that gets people like radfems ticked off.
Quote from: DianaP on October 29, 2012, 02:58:39 PM
As for Roseanne, pre-op trans women in a men's locker room is the only alternative. I don't think I need to explain what would be potentially dangerous about that. Either way, someone is going to be uncomfortable. Here's how I see it: It's easier to hide a penis, shrunken from HRT, from sight than to hide an entire person. Therefore, trans women should be allowed into women's locker rooms. If you don't like it, don't stare at her genitals.
The only way I know how to hide what is in between my legs is with panties. In that case, the trans woman would not be walking around the women's locker room naked, and I do not see any issues with it. Using the men's room would be completely wrong IMHO. But, it is just my way of looking at it. I would not feel comfortable having every woman in the locker room see me like that. Now, if the women were told before hand that trans women are allowed to be in the locker room, then I see no issue there. The other women have been informed, and they made the choice to go anyway. If they happen to see a transwoman naked, too bad.
This is kind of an interesting topic. I look forward to seeing what others post.
Quote from: CoolCat on October 29, 2012, 03:02:48 PM
stuff like HRT for sure shrinking genitalia is NOT for sure, and people should be honest and stop saying that.
Is it more likely on HRT? Yes Does it always happen? No, far from it, and in fact, there have been many posters who've said that HRT did zip to kill their libido.
Well, it is more likely than the alternative. I apologize for being ambiguous and bothering you, but I was operating under an assumption that this particular
hypothetical trans lady had shrunken genitals.
Quote from: CoolCat on October 29, 2012, 03:02:48 PM
stuff like HRT for sure shrinking genitalia is NOT for sure, and people should be honest and stop saying that.
Is it more likely on HRT? Yes Does it always happen? No, far from it, and in fact, there have been many posters who've said that HRT did zip to kill their libido.
so, yah, no hate, but I totally see why stuff like that gets people like radfems ticked off.
It's the more common side effect. Getting mad at that is like getting mad when we say it increases breast growth, softer skin and what it naturally does.
As for the trans in women's changing rooms, well we are female aside from a certain birth defect. Being in the male locker room is more dangerous for us. Saying we shouldn't be there is also like those who say we shouldn't use the female bathroom because of the whole pervert thing. There is no difference.
How about just not getting naked in a locker room if you are pre-op, "shrunken" junk or not. I think that is asking a LOT to expect people to accept you as a woman with your junk exposed. No, the mens area would be worse but lets use some common courtesy and not FORCE ourselves on other people. If not, the mens area is where we will end up.
Sure, go in there to change clothes (and maybe wear some underwear if you plan to do that?) or pee etc, I have done this several times and never had any issues. But until you are post op, save walking around naked in women's spaces and showering etc till you are. I would never even consider doing that. And yes there is a huge difference between us using a rest room with private stalls and walking around in a women's locker room with our junk hanging out. Like I said, if that is what they did I too am pissed the other women were asked to leave. Doing something like that shows a total lack of respect for others and is being delusional to think most women would be OK with that..
BTW HRT has done nothing really to mine so you can't assume that. I also don't consider myself as having "a birth defect". I am transgendered and there isn't anything "defective" about it.
Quote from: Stephe on October 29, 2012, 06:36:02 PM
How about just not getting naked in a locker room if you are pre-op, "shrunken" junk or not. I think that is asking a LOT to expect people to accept you as a woman with your junk exposed. No, the mens area would be worse but lets use some common courtesy and not FORCE ourselves on other people. If not, the mens area is where we will end up.
Sure, go in there to change clothes (and maybe wear some underwear if you plan to do that?) or pee etc, I have done this several times and never had any issues. But until you are post op, save walking around naked in women's spaces and showering etc till you are. I would never even consider doing that. And yes there is a huge difference between us using a rest room with private stalls and walking around in a women's locker room with our junk hanging out. Like I said, if that is what they did I too am pissed the other women were asked to leave. Doing something like that shows a total lack of respect for others and is being delusional to think most women would be OK with that..
BTW HRT has done nothing really to mine so you can't assume that. I also don't consider myself as having "a birth defect". I am transgendered and there isn't anything "defective" about it.
Agreed, we should segregate ourselves. Good point. /sarc
BTW if it hasn't than you are probably in the minority. Once again. Common side effects. If hrt didn't do anything than one can assume they are in the minority. I find it hard to believe it affects reading too because I went over that. As far as it being a defect, well if it isn't then why should you have to segregate yourself to sate the fear of the other women? It is a defect. One was born in the wrong body, they try to correct the "defectiveness" of what they were born with. You can look at it any way you want but if you try to correct your issue than some part of you must consider what you were born with as defective. I assume you're trying to get surgery if you haven't already? So.... uh yeah.
Quote from: Stephe on October 29, 2012, 06:36:02 PM
How about just not getting naked in a locker room if you are pre-op, "shrunken" junk or not. I think that is asking a LOT to expect people to accept you as a woman with your junk exposed. No, the mens area would be worse but lets use some common courtesy and not FORCE ourselves on other people. If not, the mens area is where we will end up.
BTW HRT has done nothing really to mine so you can't assume that. I also don't consider myself as having "a birth defect". I am transgendered and there isn't anything "defective" about it.
I never suggested we walk about with our genitals hanging about. I would never flash out my stuff to other people, which is why I hide it. ::)
And, once again, I said that the shrinking is a MORE LIKELY option, not an absolute certainty. :eusa_wall:
Quote from: Stephe on October 29, 2012, 06:36:02 PM
How about just not getting naked in a locker room if you are pre-op, "shrunken" junk or not. I think that is asking a LOT to expect people to accept you as a woman with your junk exposed. No, the mens area would be worse but lets use some common courtesy and not FORCE ourselves on other people. If not, the mens area is where we will end up.
Sure, go in there to change clothes (and maybe wear some underwear if you plan to do that?) or pee etc, I have done this several times and never had any issues. But until you are post op, save walking around naked in women's spaces and showering etc till you are. I would never even consider doing that. And yes there is a huge difference between us using a rest room with private stalls and walking around in a women's locker room with our junk hanging out. Like I said, if that is what they did I too am pissed the other women were asked to leave. Doing something like that shows a total lack of respect for others and is being delusional to think most women would be OK with that..
BTW HRT has done nothing really to mine so you can't assume that. I also don't consider myself as having "a birth defect". I am transgendered and there isn't anything "defective" about it.
Finally! We agree ^^
exactly what you said, there is a difference between using the bathroom which is necessary, but having your pre op junk out? No, sorry, I don't think anyone would be ok with that.
I'm curious. Who has said anything about just having it hang out? I mean has there been a single person in this thread who has stated that? Or is that just an assumption by you two? I would think that all things considered in the MTF trans world, we would not want it just hanging out. Or at least a majority would not. So is this just some fallacy argument meant to play on emotions? That if I were in the female locker room I would just be nude and letting it hang out? No I very much think that I would be concealing my most hated part of my body, ESPECIALLY in the sight of others. No... this entire argument reeks of broken logic.
Quote from: Snowpaw on October 29, 2012, 07:40:09 PM
I'm curious. Who has said anything about just having it hang out? I mean has there been a single person in this thread who has stated that? Or is that just an assumption by you two? I would think that all things considered in the MTF trans world, we would not want it just hanging out. Or at least a majority would not. So is this just some fallacy argument meant to play on emotions? That if I were in the female locker room I would just be nude and letting it hang out? No I very much think that I would be concealing my most hated part of my body, ESPECIALLY in the sight of others. No... this entire argument reeks of broken logic.
I apologize if I misunderstood. When I think of a locker room, I think of someone going in there to take a shower and change after some sort of physical exercise. That is why I thought about people having their private parts exposed. If I misunderstood the meaning of the term, I am sorry.
Quote from: Snowpaw on October 29, 2012, 07:40:09 PM
I'm curious. Who has said anything about just having it hang out? I mean has there been a single person in this thread who has stated that? Or is that just an assumption by you two? I would think that all things considered in the MTF trans world, we would not want it just hanging out. Or at least a majority would not. So is this just some fallacy argument meant to play on emotions? That if I were in the female locker room I would just be nude and letting it hang out? No I very much think that I would be concealing my most hated part of my body, ESPECIALLY in the sight of others. No... this entire argument reeks of broken logic.
you know, there aren't really that many in women's spaces in the whole world where women can actually feel safe and comfortable. TBH, why is it that women have to be inconvenienced from their spaces to makes others comfortable?
Why not "Stick it to the man", have men have to deal with it, or use other facilites? I know the safety concern, that's valid, but I also know that women would have their safety concerns brought out by having a pre op MTF in their changing rooms, it makes me a little uncomfortable honestly that women are the ones that aren't expressly having their concerns heard...
Quote from: CoolCat on October 29, 2012, 07:45:35 PM
you know, there aren't really that many in women's spaces in the whole world where women can actually feel safe and comfortable. TBH, why is it that women have to be inconvenienced from their spaces to makes others comfortable?
Why not "Stick it to the man", have men have to deal with it, or use other facilites? I know the safety concern, that's valid, but I also know that women would have their safety concerns brought out by having a pre op MTF in their changing rooms, it makes me a little uncomfortable honestly that women are the ones that aren't expressly having their concerns heard...
Ah there is the argument I was thinking of. We cannot be considered women even by our own community until we have our surgery. What a sad statement that says of this community. Why should I be forced to use the men's facilities because of the fears of others? Why stop there?
I don't know about many others but I consider myself a woman. I think I deserve a place where I can feel safe as well. Are we going to kick out lesbians too because straight women feel they will be leered at? Why let the fears of others dictate how we should live our lives?
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 29, 2012, 07:43:50 PM
I apologize if I misunderstood. When I think of a locker room, I think of someone going in there to take a shower and change after some sort of physical exercise. That is why I thought about people having their private parts exposed. If I misunderstood the meaning of the term, I am sorry.
No worries. I just feel like some in this thread are hinting at a "true transexual" mental mindset. That right there is sad because it's self loathing at it's finest. That one can only be considered a woman if they have their surgery. That's what I am getting off some of the posts here. If I was to shower in a locker room I think I would either be wearing some kind of bathing attire or waiting until everyone was out. Much like middleschool gym class.
I just reread the article that Rosanne cites http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/transgender-woman-told-leave-womens-locker-room/nSWT4/ (http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/transgender-woman-told-leave-womens-locker-room/nSWT4/). There is absolutely nothing in it about a pre-op woman showing her genitals. What it actually says is that the young women were disturbed by the idea of sharing the locker room w/ a transwoman.
also see http://www.kirotv.com/videos/online/transgender-woman-says-she-was-discrimated-against/vfgT6/ (http://www.kirotv.com/videos/online/transgender-woman-says-she-was-discrimated-against/vfgT6/)
Why let the fears of others dictate how we should live our lives?
Honey, if it wasn't for that personal philosophy, then a hella lot of people in here would have no personal philosophy at all.
Wow, I'm shocked at some of what I'm reading in this thread. I think when entering a locker room, you should expect to see naked people. If you are uncomfortable with that, don't let your eyes wander. If a transwoman is happy enough with her body that she can walk around nude in the company of other women, more power to her! Some of you guys are suggesting that that type of woman should have to live differently than others, which I find positively bizarre. Unless she is walking around and masturbating I don't see why that would make someone uncomfortable... and that goes for all types of women! Life is not just black and white all the time.
Also, can someone explain to me why seeing a penis is any more offensive than seeing a vagina anyways? It's not like it's something they've never seen before.. idk, the whole upset over this confuses me ???
Quote from: Snowpaw on October 29, 2012, 06:43:42 PM
Agreed, we should segregate ourselves. Good point. /sarc
*sigh* I give up. Clearly common sense has gone out the window here.
Where did I say that? I would think obviously being pre/non op does limit what you can do as a -female-, which isn't the same as being a woman. I don't share with people what's in my pants, it's none of their business, unless of course I am in public naked. Then it's kinda like "OK here is what's in my pants". And like it or not, when most people see someone with a penis their first thought isn't "Oh they just have a birth defect..."
And to the poster who said "I think when entering a locker room, you should expect to see naked people." I highly doubt women going into a womens locker room expect to see someone with a penis naked in there. If that was the case, why bother even having male and female space?
On the "We can't even be considered women by our own community until we have had surgery." Who said anything like that? Of course people can be women pre-op. I'm a woman who is pre-op so how can I think you can't be? O.o Now while I'm a woman, I'm not -female- note -I still have a penis-.
So yes I am a women and I am pre-op. I don't "segregate" myself from other women. I belong to several womens groups etc and am totally accepted as one by them. But I do have enough sense to know that no pre-op can "hide it" when naked to the point no one will know. And that women don't expect to see a penis in the womens shower/locker room.
I mean seriously, this is going to ruin your life to not have full access to every last womens space until you have a female body? No one even said you can't be in there, just like maybe wear some underwear if you plan to change clothes or wait till you get home to take a shower. I've been in womens locker rooms when working an event at the YMCA and had no issues, I didn't take all my clothes off either. I think my womanhood can survive not experiencing being in a womens shower or being in a womens locker room totally naked.
And so now we must force ourselves into this space and have anyone who doesn't like it told to leave?? That to me just sounds like male privilege rearing it's ugly head...
I'm not going to even go into why being transgendered isn't "a defect".
To the original post, it doesn't say how they knew this person was trans or how they knew they were pre-op. That would make a difference to me on if these woman had any right to be this upset..
Hun, common sense went out the window the moment you took that "most deal with penis shrinkage" and turned it into "everyone deals with penis shrinkage. Get flustered all you want sug but noone said we should have the right to waggle our junk in the lockerroom. We just shouldn't be segregated like you are hinting at.
"I mean seriously, this is going to ruin your life to not have full access to every last womens space until you have a female body? No one even said you can't be in there, just like maybe wear some underwear if you plan to change clothes or wait till you get home to take a shower."
*facepalm* I already stated that.
"And so now we must force ourselves into this space and have anyone who doesn't like it told to leave?? That to me just sounds like male privilege rearing it's ugly head..."
Really, male privilege? Who would be the male here?
locked, due to personal attacks