So I had to take two weeks off work. Back in the office today and am informed that the team is supporting Movember, an Aussie prostate cancer cause, and all the guys have been told by the boss not to shave for the month for charity. I couldn't imagine anything worse with the way I feel as I have not come out except for here and need/want to start therapy soon. I look at it as a HR issue myself but don't want to cause waves.
Seeing that I have had 4 laser treatments on my face which has worked well and I am very happy with the results as I could previously grow a full beard in less than a week, not that I ever did. Still a bit patchy though but most of the growth is gone.
Your thoughts how to approach this girls???
You cannot be forced to do personal things that are unrelated to your job. So simply refuse to grow the beard/mustache. If they ask just say that it produces a terrible skin rash and you are not going through that. Offer to donate $10 instead.
I think this would actually be illegal in the US. If there was a dress code stating "All men must grow beards" when you signed up that would be one thing... I guess it would depend on the job contract too, like if the contract says "The boss may dictate your facial" that's different then "Employees must be neat and well groomed" (something like my job contract said over the summer that allowed beards). If you signed something like the latter you could argue that you had a reasonable expectation that you would be able to stay clean shaven and that this reuest is related to your boss's personal beliefs/goals and not your job, which would make it a violation of the contract to fire you or otherwise let it affect your work experience if you didn't grow a beard. But I guess if your boss is going to fire you over Movember something really weird is already happening. I like bev's idea: say you're not comfortable growing a beard- a good excuse is a plus- and offer to donate the 10 dollars. You've got a prostate so you might well be supportive.
Quote from: Jenny07 on November 05, 2012, 06:19:27 AM
Your thoughts how to approach this girls???
Every read "Bartleby, the Scrivener" by Herman Melville? Basically it's about an employee who refuses to do any work but he's so polite about it (he says "I prefer not to" whenever anyone asks him anything) that nobody can bear to ask him to leave.
I'd do nothing. Shave, depilate or whatever you usually do. If someone asks why you're not growing a beard, tell them, "I prefer not to."
Another possibility is to go to your boss (or whomever) all embarrassed like, and say, "I have this medical condition that makes it a problem to grow a beard, so I won't be growing one." (This is 100% true, right?) If they want to know more, like "what medical condition?" again act all embarrassed and say something like "are you allowed to ask me that?" which puts them on the defensive, since, though I don't know the laws where you are, they probably aren't.
Hope this helps.
I came up with a solution for Jessica in this thread: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,93063.msg679345.html#msg679345 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,93063.msg679345.html#msg679345)
Quote from: agfrommd on November 05, 2012, 07:19:29 AM
..... "I prefer not to" .....
You made my morning with this. Busted out laughing because I did this all the time to avoid foods or some activity. It was always: "Here, try some of this spaghetti sqush.", and then "Oh, I prefer not to, it's not something I usually eat with (whatever). I hope you don't mind". Or sometimes it was "Come on, let's go for a walk." and the reply "I prefer not to right now, but please go on without me". It was always so disarming there was never a comeback. It worked well until my brothers and sisters caught on.
K
Jen. Beard = harrasment
I know in the US this would be sex discrimination. No employer can force their employees to do something solely on the basis of their sex. As a matter of fact, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission ruled in favor a trans woman who was let go because she was dressing as a female. The ruling stated something along the lines of any expectations of somebody to perform as the sex they are born as is stereotyping, which is illegal.
I would check with whatever agency enforces work laws in your country.
This sounds absolutely outrageous. You should not be forced to do 'charity' work. It should be voluntary. Hope you get it sorted.
Quote from: agfrommd on November 05, 2012, 07:19:29 AM
Every read "Bartleby, the Scrivener" by Herman Melville? Basically it's about an employee who refuses to do any work but he's so polite about it (he says "I prefer not to" whenever anyone asks him anything) that nobody can bear to ask him to leave.
I'd do nothing. Shave, depilate or whatever you usually do. If someone asks why you're not growing a beard, tell them, "I prefer not to."
Another possibility is to go to your boss (or whomever) all embarrassed like, and say, "I have this medical condition that makes it a problem to grow a beard, so I won't be growing one." (This is 100% true, right?) If they want to know more, like "what medical condition?" again act all embarrassed and say something like "are you allowed to ask me that?" which puts them on the defensive, since, though I don't know the laws where you are, they probably aren't.
Hope this helps.
I think this would be a great way to handle the situation. You will not come off as aggressive, and you will be seen as an honest person. In most places, honesty is a good thing.
I would inform the boss that you will not be growing a beard, period. If you must tell him anything, tell him you support the cause but you do not wish to have facial hair.
I was waiting for the "push" to grow a Mo for Movember. When it was raised, I quite clearly said that I have never grown one and I am not about to start! However, if the whole group opted to do it, I was thinking of going with the flow. After about 2 weeks and only about 100 hairs growing on my top lip (about 6 full top lip clearings and 2-thirds of my face cleared by electrolysis), they would beg me to shave! By the way, the girls I work with are all wearing false moes (sp?) between 9am and 5pm in the office to support the cause. Very funny. They are happy to cop the laughs for a month. Great team!
The issue as I see it here in Australia is that while it probably is illegal to make it a condition of employment in most places (some jobs have grooming restrictions as opposed to requiring it), this is something done for charity and if you do not participate in some way when your work group is, it can upset the group dynamic. Like me, the best you can do is firmly say it is something you prefer not to do (for whatever reason - skin condition, irritation etc but I am thinking embarrassment won't stand up!!) and support the cause by way of donation.
What I wouldn't do is start the "this is illegal, you can't make me" kind of argument as you will be right, they can't and it probably is illegal. But the work environment will become very stressful and guess who will bear the brunt of that. Partial participation is the way to go and it will be soon forgotten. Here in Victoria, we have very strong anti-discrimination laws (including in relation to gender identity). However, that will not carry much weight when someone you work around (and/or for) decides you are not an involved team member.
For all of you from non-Movember countries, it is not an attractive time of year!!! :-\
Quote
What I wouldn't do is start the "this is illegal, you can't make me" kind of argument as you will be right, they can't and it probably is illegal. But the work environment will become very stressful and guess who will bear the brunt of that.
I think with stuff like this you start with the more passive stuff and then if people won't let up on their own then you move into "Uh actually, that's not legal..." And if you stay passive for too long it can cause problems: disability related problems never got solved at my last job until I accused my employers (and by extention my supervisor) of job discrimination and said that if we couldn't work stuff out I was going to contact the EEOC. Then stuff improved
real quick.
And actually, I still got a recommended for rehiring by my supervisor, so I don't think I came off as callous or threatening. Just direct and assertive. I wish I had been a little more assertive a little faster, but it's a balancing act.
good luck with that. I can't even imagine having to grow a beard, no that i could anymore anyway
Thanks everyone for your input on this as it is a difficult situation being careful not upsetting the dynamics of the team.
I will muse over what to do as it is not that easy. ???
I am aware it is discrimination but....
I do like the I prefer not to option.
I was thinking of leaving my upper lip for the time being to keep them off my back for the time being. Hair growth has slowed in this area for the time and will look dismal.
It is not the prettiest time of year over here in OZ as it looks straight out of the 70's during November so a good time not to visit.
You'll have to pardon my adamancy on the matter.
Team or no team, you were employed to produce results, not to grow hair or do anything outside of your area of responsibility. This is clearly an abrogation of your employers responsibility and duty of care.
No, is a very appropriate response to the matter and the Industrial Trade tribunal would no doubt be happy to support you in your determination.
Be safe, well and happy.
Lotsa huggs
Catherine
Hi Jenny,
It is very simple. Don't.
There are no ifs there are no buts there is nothing. Just don't.
If anyone says anything tell them that you can no longer grow a beard/mo/whatever.
As I and others mentioned before; there will be tests on the journey. This is one.
The answer is very very simple. NO.
If you are still in doubt Aunty Catherine and Aunty Cindy will be visiting. And Aunty Catherine is very cruel as she is a trained mo plucker. I'm very gentle >:-) >:-)
Just say no.
It is a test of Jenny, and she is a strong woman who can walk the walk and talk the talk.
You can always offer to sponsor the people who do so.
If you have the strength as yet, and be careful as you will need the strength. You can say no; but I will get my eyebrows shaped, or ears pierced or hair dyed. Make it work for you.
Don't give in. Never give in.
We are here for you Sis. Be strong. First and second hurdles are the doozies. Then guys suddenly realise that maybe you are not a guy? Oh dear what a calamity.
It is called transitioning, breaking other people in to realise you are special.
Hugs Sis
Cindy
Cindy
Should I be afraid and lock the door? :-\
Or welcome both of you with open arms and hugs...
Quote from: Jenny07 on November 06, 2012, 04:41:16 AM
Cindy
Should I be afraid and lock the door? :-\
Or welcome both of you with open arms and hugs...
It depends whether they turn up with the branding irons. You may want to consider emigration (for your own pain-relief) or at least a station in the Outback....
Ah, Movember...
It is a good cause, prostate cancer awareness and prevention is sadly lagging in comparison to breast cancer. For those of you who don't live in Aussieland, the whole "do it for the team" thing is pretty strong when it comes to charity events like this. We're pretty poor on the philanthropy side in general, but big public campaign events like this get pretty good support, so not participating in some form is considered pretty poor form.
Not so good a month if you're mtf and getting rid of facial hair, never mind the dysphoria it induces.
Thankfully, I've never had to participate, as I haven't been able to grow a beard at all for over 8 years. If I were in the situation that I were asked, I'd just simply say that I literally can't, and leave it at that (I can beg off my weak genes for that one as well!).
Emigration doesn't work, ask Devlynn.
As Luna said it is for a good cause but being 'blackmailed' into helping a good cause is blackmail none the less. I think (I don't know) that Luna has a medical background and one of the most critical things in asking for volunteers for any 'good' cause is ethics.
It is unethical and therefore illegal to ask people or rather force people to do something they do not want to do.
In Australia it carries a potential goal sentence.
I have several projects that have ethics coverage. If I hinted at coercing people to do something they didn't want to do I would lose the ethics permission in one phone call.
This is NO different. The principle is exactly the same.
I posted a comical post to alleviate tension and give some options but on a legal point of view your work place could be hung out to dry as could the concept of mo for November.
It doesn't matter how serious the disease and how compelling the stuff is. Coercion is illegal in medical practice.
Sorry to get heavy.
Oh locking the doors won't help I learn't that from 'No Country for Old Men' I carry a gas bottle to charge up the beer keg.
Hugs Doll Don't fret BTW
Cindy
Thanks I know it was in jest as it is quite serious and causing some angst for me as it would to any of us in this situation.
Looks like I cant escape so will welcome you anytime your in Sydney.
:-*
Sent a message give me a call
Instead of being forced to grow a beard for charity, why don't you say you are dressing as a woman for charity? :)
Quote from: Naturally Blonde on November 07, 2012, 05:21:07 AM
Instead of being forced to grow a beard for charity, why don't you say you are dressing as a woman for charity? :)
:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
good idea
I like it. ;D
Shaved what pathetic growth I now have off last night so now clean.
I will just tell them no.
Thanks Cindy again.
Say you don't wanna, and give money for the cause instead. Even for guys, moustaches are gross, anyway. If you need an excuse, say your girlfriend/wife/roommate/sister/mother absolutely refused that you do such a thing. Most women wouldn't accept the participation of a man close to them in Movember without a frown anyway.
Oh yeah, as for excuses, there's always saying that you get awful ingrowns if your beard grows. It's true for many people.
Yes say "can you really imagine me with a beard but tell you what I will give a prize (to the charity of course) for the best beard grown." Then every day say "come on lets see whose in the lead"
By joining in the fun you will still be part of the team I clents or customers ask.
O I am the before for them all to be judged by.
Beinging positive is always best
I never heard of work places enforcing to grow a beard. I know uniformed police officers are not allowed to have any facial fair, but undercover ones are.
I don't think the Taliban do it for charity, mind you.
Wow! You Aussies really are very influential! We even have "Movember" here in South Africa as well, though it is not compulsary. We are doing it for the same cause.
I bet Cindy had something to do with exporting it here. ;D
Quote from: Maegan on November 08, 2012, 01:39:28 PM
Wow! You Aussies really are very influential! We even have "Movember" here in South Africa as well, though it is not compulsary. We are doing it for the same cause.
I bet Cindy had something to do with exporting it here. ;D
It happens in the US, but it has a different name and is primarily a fashion statement. Pretty much the same idea as labor day.
Not wishing to hijack the thread, but, Maegan, you look absolutely inspiring in that gown of yours. I'll bet it and the night this photo was taken on tells of an incredible story?
Can't wait to hear. :o ;D
Huggs
Catherine
Quote from: Maegan on November 08, 2012, 01:39:28 PM
Wow! You Aussies really are very influential! We even have "Movember" here in South Africa as well, though it is not compulsary. We are doing it for the same cause.
I bet Cindy had something to do with exporting it here. ;D
Me? I'm just a sweet innocent young lady, who has a collection of jewel encrusted branding irons. A girl has to have a hobby.
Agree about that dress. Sis you look hot.
Did you have a Mo as an accessory?
Well, of you can't grow a mo, maybe you could wear one like the girls, you said it was very funny yourself.
I'm growing one despite the fact nobody else in my workplace is, they're all telling me it is hideous and I should remove it, which is why it's still here because I'm stubborn like that.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7MxoEYCcAAJvzu.jpg)
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 09, 2012, 01:36:41 AM
Well, of you can't grow a mo, maybe you could wear one like the girls, you said it was very funny yourself.
I'm growing one despite the fact nobody else in my workplace is, they're all telling me it is hideous and I should remove it, which is why it's still here because I'm stubborn like that.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7MxoEYCcAAJvzu.jpg)
I think it makes you look regal, in a Black Adder regal way :embarrassed: :laugh:
I have to report that the girls have gone off wearing their moes after a couple of days and honestly, who can blame them! On another point, I can say that I actually can't tell who is growing one for Movember, who just doesn't shave much (can't for the life of me think why you would grow hair on your face but it seems fashionable!)....oh, and those not shaving because they have an electrolysis appointment tomorrow! I think there is only one of those but I could be wrong ::).
To Jenny07, I hope things are sorting themselves out and nobody is being stupid about this (as stupid seems to describe how unnecessary your situation was). Whenever I see someone who is participating, I think of your situation, mine and just what if... It has made me think in terms of developing plans in the event something like this arises.
Still getting some grief. The others hate it and want to get rid of their growth.
For me I am glad my facial hair is all but gone now, ;D ;D
Only a few patches left now and no chances of joining the fabulous facial fungus festival of Movember.
Good on you Girl!!
A little bit of grief for a lot of personal satisfaction in standing against bullying tactics. By the time you are post transition you will have encountered a lot more of this nonsense. Now you know how to deal with it.
Congratulations
Huggs
Catherine
Thank Catherine
Still holding out on doing my Baldric slug balancing act at work, I think they have given up as no more grief at this point, we have been too busy. Most of the other are getting sick of it now so I just smile and I have my next laser session next weekend so what remains will be almost gone for good.
Still have to sum up the courage to move forward but one step at a time.
Need to sort out a doctor and a therapist to help as I have no idea. ??? ???
Quote from: Jenny07 on November 23, 2012, 04:37:28 AM
Thank Catherine
Still holding out on doing my Baldric slug balancing act at work, I think they have given up as no more grief at this point, we have been too busy. Most of the other are getting sick of it now so I just smile and I have my next laser session next weekend so what remains will be almost gone for good.
Still have to sum up the courage to move forward but one step at a time.
Need to sort out a doctor and a therapist to help as I have no idea. ??? ???
Honey you are doing great.
I'm proud of you Sis
When in doubt you have my number.
And I was so sacrey to talk too?
I'm not sure who I should be more affraid of you, Catherine or perhaps that branding iron...
It will take a few of you to hold me down but perhaps I just might enjoy it. ;D
So its finaly over and no more Movember.
The greif stopped and next year there will be nothing left to grow, well hardly anything.
It would be nice to be on HRT and have some growth.
Thanks for the support on a difficult situation for girls like us.
Love
J