I'm not sure of where to post this question exactly but I believe that this is the most relevant place.
I'm fairly young so I'm not trying to rush into transitioning or anything soon but I just was wondering if it's at all normal to desire to both transition from female to male but retain certain aspects like my lesbian identity?
By definition, a lesbian is a woman who has sexual attraction to women (and not men). If you're not a woman (and are furthermore a man), then it'd be impossible for you to be a lesbian.
That said, maybe there's something you feel about being a "lesbian" that's not actually exclusive to lesbians. If you're big on rights for women, you are very capable of being a feminist heterosexual man, and you don't have to feel that support is diminished simply because you're a man. If there's some sort of expression or connection you feel comes from being a "lesbian," you can still have that same attitude or expression as a man (lesbians can have male friends like you!)
Alternatively, you may actually be a woman, and maybe there are certain things about you that you'd think would be for men but are legitimate for women to have as well. There are lots of possibilities for what men and women can be and what they can do, after all.
Alternatively, you could be third gender or genderfluid, in which case you're sort of splitting the difference, but basically you're not going to be neatly tied down as one of the two socially-recognized genders.
There might be more explanations, but basically there are lots of possibilities for who you are that do not require contradicting definitions.
Take your time.
To add to Kaelin, the general attitude is that sexuality and gender are different. One occurring between your legs, the other between your ears.
But if I may say, A big welcome. :D
On some level I can understand this, because I came out as a lesbian before I came out as trans. Only because I didn't really know transition was possible - I thought that lesbian was the only thing available to me. And I generally got a lot of support from the lesbian community when I came out of a rather religious environment. It was a safe place then, and it validated the feelings I had for women when no one else did. I actually thought lesbians felt like they were men, and that was a part of it. It was because I was ignorant at the time.
But that said...it is just a label, and in terms of labels, you can't be a man and a lesbian. I learned that fast - the lesbians I knew identified fully as women, and found that when people assumed they wanted to be a man (simply because they liked women), this was very offensive. To me, even though I labelled myself as a lesbian at first, to call myself a lesbian is really to invalidate who I really am. Which is a guy. It doesn't mean though that I don't acknowledge what I went through to accept myself as a female-bodied person who likes women. It was a hard time in my life, and accepting that part of myself was very liberating because I came out of an environment that tried so hard to make me like men because of how I was born. But that's it, it's the past, it's a label I used when no other was available to understand the feelings I had towards myself and my body.
What does being a lesbian mean to you, at the moment?
Big huggs to .caleb.
Really admire you for sticking to you guns and opening up here.
Do you have any regrets?
How do you feel about the position of the other women?
Is your transision going well?
Quote from: Kaelin on November 06, 2012, 04:28:15 AM
That said, maybe there's something you feel about being a "lesbian" that's not actually exclusive to lesbians. If you're big on rights for women, you are very capable of being a feminist heterosexual man, and you don't have to feel that support is diminished simply because you're a man. If there's some sort of expression or connection you feel comes from being a "lesbian," you can still have that same attitude or expression as a man (lesbians can have male friends like you!)
Alternatively, you may actually be a woman, and maybe there are certain things about you that you'd think would be for men but are legitimate for women to have as well. There are lots of possibilities for what men and women can be and what they can do, after all.
I think that just might be it. I do consider myself to be a feminist and I'm all for women's rights and things of that nature. I think I've been fearing that people won't take me seriously as a feminist if I were a heterosexual man although I have one male acquaintance who is indeed a feminist.
Being that I'm young I'm still debating transitioning or not, not because I worry that I actually am a woman, but because I'm very afraid of people possibly treating me differently once I've begun transitioning.
I've noticed that I don't experience dysphoria like most transmen do, though of course no two people will necessarily experience dysphoria exactly the same. I just know that most of my dysphoria is in regards to my lower half. And because I'm not really much of a fan of phalloplasty or metoidioplasty, I worry if I'll never truly feel complete.
Quote from: .caleb on November 06, 2012, 08:15:46 AM
On some level I can understand this, because I came out as a lesbian before I came out as trans. Only because I didn't really know transition was possible - I thought that lesbian was the only thing available to me.
I wasn't familiar with what the process of actually transitioning was like until sometime in July, so in a way I wasn't truly aware that transitioning was really possibly/an option for me. I came out as a lesbian about 4 years ago and I was okay with that for the time being. Only recently when people have been associating me as more of a "butch" lesbian has this problem arisen. I know lesbians who identify as butch or "studs" and I know that isn't me. I don't see myself like that and I know I never will.
I guess that embracing this lesbian label has gotten me oddly attached to it after almost five years. I think I'm afraid that I won't adjust well to being seen as a straight male. I'm afraid of going stealth. I desperately want to pass as male, granted I can't because my chest is rather large, but I want gay men and women to know that I can understand their battles in addition to my own.
Quote from: Padma on November 06, 2012, 08:17:09 AM
What does being a lesbian mean to you, at the moment?
At the moment, I'm in high school and many people look up to me for openly identifying as a lesbian. I'm only 17 so I can't vote, so I've always actively hoped for recognition of same-sex marriages. I'm an avid supporter so I would pride myself on identifying as a lesbian. Since finding out that I could transition, my views have changed. This label that I forced myself to be comfortable with in the beginning and eventually became proud of, doesn't accurately describe me anymore. I feel like part of my identity is being washed away. That just kind of scares me.
TMaria.
Firstly, apologies for my last contribution being directed at .celeb. I do hope he can repond but I don't want to leave the impression I was hijacking your thread.
Given the prospects, outlined by .celeb, how do you feel about the prospect of indeed, being rejected by your friends who currently identify as lesbian?
Do you believe there is any prospect that they will embrace your decision? Or do you see them as hostile to all men?
Quote from: TMaria95 on November 06, 2012, 11:53:46 AM
At the moment, I'm in high school and many people look up to me for openly identifying as a lesbian. I'm only 17 so I can't vote, so I've always actively hoped for recognition of same-sex marriages. I'm an avid supporter so I would pride myself on identifying as a lesbian. Since finding out that I could transition, my views have changed. This label that I forced myself to be comfortable with in the beginning and eventually became proud of, doesn't accurately describe me anymore. I feel like part of my identity is being washed away. That just kind of scares me.
Losing your identity can be a very scary thing. One of my good friends is FtM. He and his wife were together for quite a while before he started transition. They were very active feminists then, and continue to be. He was very scared that he would no longer be accepted in the feminist lesbian community. They did not receive any negative reprocutions for him transitioning. So, it is possible to do.
Quote from: spacial on November 06, 2012, 11:59:33 AM
TMaria.
Firstly, apologies for my last contribution being directed at .celeb. I do hope he can repond but I don't want to leave the impression I was hijacking your thread.
Given the prospects, outlined by .celeb, how do you feel about the prospect of indeed, being rejected by your friends who currently identify as lesbian?
Do you believe there is any prospect that they will embrace your decision? Or do you see them as hostile to all men?
Oh, no need to apologize. I was just unsure if you were solely responding to him or to me.
I believe that my chances of being accepted are pretty good. However, while there are only a few lesbians and a few gay guys at my school, there is one transgirl that we are aware of. She wasn't widely accepted by most people in our school originally and that's when I saw that most people really don't understand what it means to be transgender. I've started trying to educated my friends who were kind of confused as to why someone would want to transition so that they could both understand her and be more okay with me if I do decide to one day start HRT and things like that.
My straight friends tend to be more accepting while the very few lesbians that I know still can't wrap it around their head. They don't seem hostile to all men. I'm just scared that they'll think of me as like a cop-out or something.
Quote from: Brooke777 on November 06, 2012, 12:02:38 PM
Losing your identity can be a very scary thing. One of my good friends is FtM. He and his wife were together for quite a while before he started transition. They were very active feminists then, and continue to be. He was very scared that he would no longer be accepted in the feminist lesbian community. They did not receive any negative reprocutions for him transitioning. So, it is possible to do.
That's good to know. Thank you.
I'm in this mindset that letting go of my old identity and embracing a new identity may just be something that takes time. It took years for me to be okay with identifying as a lesbian, so it may just take time to settle into a new identity. Identifying as a straight male to me seems like what's always been on the other side of the mirror so to speak, and I worry that I'll have regrets early in transition because I won't settle into this new role immediately.
I know it's a journey that takes time so I really need to think about what aspects of transition I want to become a part of my life.
Quote from: TMaria95 on November 06, 2012, 11:53:46 AM
At the moment, I'm in high school and many people look up to me for openly identifying as a lesbian. I'm only 17 so I can't vote, so I've always actively hoped for recognition of same-sex marriages. I'm an avid supporter so I would pride myself on identifying as a lesbian. Since finding out that I could transition, my views have changed. This label that I forced myself to be comfortable with in the beginning and eventually became proud of, doesn't accurately describe me anymore. I feel like part of my identity is being washed away. That just kind of scares me.
I don't know what this might mean to you, but one of the options open to you is to identify as a straight trans man rather than as a straight man. What I mean by that is being out to people as being trans, so they're not going to see you simply as a "straight man" and will be aware of your gender history (and by inference, your sexuality history).
Pretty much everyone who knows me knows I'm trans, and I'm not interested in the whole "passing" or "stealth" paradigm myself, so it's going to stay that way. Personally, I like people knowing who I am and who I've been (in my case, it's kind of obvious anyway because I'm so tall etc.), I like people having to deal with the reality of the broad spectrum of gender identity.
What I'm getting at here is that if your current identity as a lesbian is very important to you, then retaining a public trans identity when transitioning would (I think) make it easier for you to carry on owning the aspects of that which are important to you.
Does this make sense?
Quote from: Padma on November 06, 2012, 01:05:48 PM
I don't know what this might mean to you, but one of the options open to you is to identify as a straight trans man rather than as a straight man. What I mean by that is being out to people as being trans, so they're not going to see you simply as a "straight man" and will be aware of your gender history (and by inference, your sexuality history).
Pretty much everyone who knows me knows I'm trans, and I'm not interested in the whole "passing" or "stealth" paradigm myself, so it's going to stay that way. Personally, I like people knowing who I am and who I've been (in my case, it's kind of obvious anyway because I'm so tall etc.), I like people having to deal with the reality of the broad spectrum of gender identity.
What I'm getting at here is that if your current identity as a lesbian is very important to you, then retaining a public trans identity when transitioning would (I think) make it easier for you to carry on owning the aspects of that which are important to you.
Does this make sense?
Yeah, I understand. I've considered that recently because I basically want to remain an obvious individual within the "queer" community. I've never been a fan of passing so well that it puts a person back in the closet and keeps them from admitting their trans status to anyone.
Of course, people have different comfort levels and occasionally passing is necessary for safety in dangerous situations, so I'm very understanding of those who tend to not tell people that they are trans if it's not necessary.
It seems that being open is most likely the best option for me in this case.
Oh yes, I'm never saying "I'm doing this so everyone should do this" :), it's just how I'm approaching it. I just wasn't sure whether you'd considered it too. I hope you figure it out in your own good time - it doesn't sound like something you need to decide quickly.
Quote from: spacial on November 06, 2012, 10:29:13 AM
Do you have any regrets?
How do you feel about the position of the other women?
Is your transision going well?
I assume you still mean me for these questions? If so, I don't have any regrets whatsoever, and I am very happy with my transition so far (other than not passing well at this point, but even if I never passed socially, I'd still take T and have all my surgeries). As for how lesbians feel, I can definitely understand why they are angry when people think they want to be men, cause they're not men. I know a lot of lesbians who came out and got "what's next? A sex change?" because people couldn't understand that a
woman can love another woman, and that there doesn't need to be a man, or someone who acts like a man (butch/femme stereotype) in order for it to work.
That's why I,
personally, don't label myself as a lesbian trans man or whatever. Because it perpetuates that notion that lesbians aren't fully women, when in fact they are (just ask the lesbian trans girls here). It also perpetuates the notion that trans men aren't fully men, when in fact we are. I'm a guy like any other, I was just born in the wrong body.
Quote from: .caleb on November 06, 2012, 03:44:09 PM
That's why I, personally, don't label myself as a lesbian trans man or whatever. Because it perpetuates that notion that lesbians aren't fully women, when in fact they are (just ask the lesbian trans girls here). It also perpetuates the notion that trans men aren't fully men, when in fact we are. I'm a guy like any other, I was just born in the wrong body.
Well, from reading all of these responses, including this one, I've become pretty confident that I can transition and not feel like I lost my identity or anything like that. However, I do have a different question now, but since I'm new I'm not sure if I should start a new topic, search for the pre-existing topic, or just ask it here and continue the discussion?
It's good to start a new topic, rather than resurrect an old one (though it's okay to do that too).
Like I'm sure TMaria, I too was very taken by the final paragraph in .caleb's response.
It makes perfect sense. But it also adresses a situation I have wondered about before.
I have a good friend who while she doesn't consider herself trans, doesn't really consider herself a true Lesbian either. She is extremely 'Butch' and would ideally like to be able to have a mastectomy without actually transitioning, so it is possible to make your own niche. At present she is happy to label herself vaguelly Genderqueer without actually defining just how. Her girlfriend self-identifies as a Lesbian, but just loves her for who she is.
Karen.
Quote from: TMaria95 on November 06, 2012, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: Padma on November 06, 2012, 01:05:48 PM
I don't know what this might mean to you, but one of the options open to you is to identify as a straight trans man rather than as a straight man. What I mean by that is being out to people as being trans, so they're not going to see you simply as a "straight man" and will be aware of your gender history (and by inference, your sexuality history).
Pretty much everyone who knows me knows I'm trans, and I'm not interested in the whole "passing" or "stealth" paradigm myself, so it's going to stay that way. Personally, I like people knowing who I am and who I've been (in my case, it's kind of obvious anyway because I'm so tall etc.), I like people having to deal with the reality of the broad spectrum of gender identity.
What I'm getting at here is that if your current identity as a lesbian is very important to you, then retaining a public trans identity when transitioning would (I think) make it easier for you to carry on owning the aspects of that which are important to you.
Does this make sense?
Yeah, I understand. I've considered that recently because I basically want to remain an obvious individual within the "queer" community. I've never been a fan of passing so well that it puts a person back in the closet and keeps them from admitting their trans status to anyone.
Of course, people have different comfort levels and occasionally passing is necessary for safety in dangerous situations, so I'm very understanding of those who tend to not tell people that they are trans if it's not necessary.
It seems that being open is most likely the best option for me in this case.
Hi TMaria,
Just a note on passing: after some time on T, most trans men are indistinguishable from regular men. Though there are probably things you can do to stand out or look more like an obvious member of the queer community.
Quote from: justmeinoz on November 06, 2012, 08:51:37 PM
I have a good friend who while she doesn't consider herself trans, doesn't really consider herself a true Lesbian either. She is extremely 'Butch' and would ideally like to be able to have a mastectomy without actually transitioning, so it is possible to make your own niche. At present she is happy to label herself vaguelly Genderqueer without actually defining just how. Her girlfriend self-identifies as a Lesbian, but just loves her for who she is.
Karen.
Hello.
I've also considered this option as well. I've always wanted some aspects of transitioning without others. However, I do find myself really desiring the effects of testosterone in regards to body fat distribution and lowering my voice. I don't know if that's the best option for me just yet. I find that the discomfort I feel from my body makes me want to transition but outside social factors keep me from actually taking the steps to start transitioning.
For example, while I know that transitioning should be a decision I make for myself without any other people's opinions involved, there are small social things that make it hard for me to transition. First one being that my birth name causes me no amount of dysphoria whatsoever. This alone makes me question if transitioning isn't a good option for me because I can't see myself changing my name. Another thing keeping me from transitioning is the fact that I'm been waiting for the legalization of same sex marriages in Maryland for quite some time now. Since we finally got it last night, this has also pushed me several steps back in desiring to transition.
It just sometimes makes me feel like if I were to transition, some of the things I've been fighting and hoping for will no longer apply to me.
Legalization of same-sex marriage is still something that's great for you even if you are transitioning. For one, it is consistent with your values. Two, it extends rights to people you care about. Three, its legalization lends credibility to the fact that transitioning is NOT an "escape" -- if you are able to marry the person you love regardless of your gender (whereas in the past you'd probably need to be a man), then transitioning no longer confers that "advantage." I find it highly questionable that transitioning anyway could be regarded as a legitimate means of escape, because transitioning poses its own obstacles that being a lesbian does not, but the fact that same-sex marriage is legal for you points to the fact you wouldn't be taking the easy way out.
The idea of maintaining a pro-lesbian identity specifically (or a feminist identity in general) is sort of an interesting open question. It's not always practical to wear our values on our sleeves, and it's perhaps a little more tricky for men to show those same values. I don't think we should have to give up on who we just to maintain that part of our identity -- rather, the challenge is for us to find ways for men to express in kind. This takes work, but it would not only have advantages for you (since it'd allow you to be a complete individual), but it'd also help open up means for men to show these values, too. And that means more men supporting the causes you care about.
I honestly understand the confusion surrounded by this dilemma. I am in the exact same situation. Before transitioning, i identified as a lesbian for a year, and although thats a rather short period of time, it was a huge part of my life, and i found myself fully embracing the LGBT community. I watched lesbian youtubers, watched tv shows deemed 'for lesbians', i.e. The L word, The Real L Word, Lip Service, etc, and i found myself really at ease with the idea of being a lesbian.
When i came out as trans, i had a huge part of me, and still now, self doubt, because how could i really be trans if i still wanted to watch these shows? A part of me wants to be a lesbian, but hates the fact im a guy so i cant be.
Im not quite sure what the right answer is just yet, but if i ever find it? I'll make sure to tell you.
You can be a guy and still enjoy content not necessarily "intended" for you. You have life experiences that make you very aware of lesbian struggles, and you can still consume media that taps into and nurtures that understanding. Even more, you and lesbians are allies because you're both fighting against the heteronorm that people born with girly bits are supposed to love men, and you run into many of the same obstacles because you both defy those expectations. I mean, I'm a guy, but I'm also a feminist, and while a part of me is one for the noble purpose of setting things right in the world, I have my own selfish reasons of defeating gender-specificity in social norms (androgynous males are more at ease without so many reminders that we're expected to act differently than we do/want).