Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Just curious. Forgive me if this offends anyone, i know some non binary people use the word in a totally different way, but i cant fit an infinite number of options. If your id isnt here you can comment or suggest something and it can be added.

Anyway, i just wanted to see how many people identify with androgynous gender ids and how they do it. I figured a poll might be a fun way to take a peek at the andie community.

The way androgyne is defined here nowadays includes people who do not fit neatly into the gender norms of their society.  This includes people whose gender is the one assigned to them, but who do not conform to social norms for their gender.  In this respect, "just androgynous" people are permitted to be regarded as androgynes.

It might be more correct to ask if an androgyne is simply androgynous, or if the person instead/also has an alternate gender.

I think I'm a combination of female and male elements. I think I was probably female at birth (but never knew it) and then the male parts got grafted on by living as one for a half-century. Will be curious to see how much of that drops off if I begin living as a female.

Quote from: agfrommd on November 09, 2012, 04:54:38 PM
I think I'm a combination of female and male elements. I think I was probably female at birth (but never knew it) and then the male parts got grafted on by living as one for a half-century. Will be curious to see how much of that drops off if I begin living as a female.

I had that happen when I came out to my parents as bigender...then my male side disappeared altogether. It's like I had created a persona in high school so that I could fit in. I can tell because the persona didn't always work, and I still didn't really fit in. I also didn't "feel" that I was expressing my true self.

I think that it might take some time for your true identity (if you aren't actually androgynous) to fully come apart from your persona. That's just my speculation though; and just through my experience of such things. :)

I'm androgyne.

I was going to say more, but that says it all for me.

I'm androgyne, and mostly genderfluid. It's really difficult to choose from those options, but the best for me was "androgyne and other/non-binary". For me, gender id just varies a lot. I'm inclined to identify more as male than female, but that may change when I don't almost always get read as female anymore.

It was hard to pick one. I'm broadly inclined to identify as a woman, because I experience myself as being supposed to have a female body (hence transitioning). But my "gender identity" isn't female, so much as androgyne. And this all has tides. Cultural pressure to conform to a binary model makes it very hard to put my finger on what I "am", because my culture seems to offer me only the options of being a woman, or androgyne - and I experience myself as both (or anyway, see no conflict between the two, except that they're considered mutually exclusive).

Hey there's two other people who are androgynous but ID as male! I'm not alone ;)

i had no idea what to answer to that. can't call myself androgynous, since i don't look it at all. and i'm a non-binary whose gender identity is a real mess. currently i have a male online identity, a female offline identity, and a slightly better aligned identity among people who get it. and i am all of those things or none, depending on factors so arbitrary that i still haven't figured out what they are

I don't really have much of a gender identity. I picked androgynous and non-binary as it seemed the closest.

Quote from: Sarah7 on November 14, 2012, 08:54:19 AM
I don't really have much of a gender identity. I picked androgynous and non-binary as it seemed the closest.

This, haha. My gender is neutrois, which I think of as the gender of not really having a gender.

I suppose this best describes me. I am androgynous, but my gender id is (other, non binary) since initially being male born, but having mixed male and female thoughts I finally had an orchiectomy to make it a physical reality. Some refer to it as castration, the process of becoming a eunuch. Kind of an ugly word that I don't like but it leaves me suspended between genders and not fully a part of either, ergo non binary and androgynous in the fullest sense!

I agree on not liking 'castration' - it's another of those words like 'reassignment' that imply something being done to you, instead of something you've chosen to do.

Quote from: Cain on November 14, 2012, 11:07:01 AM
This, haha. My gender is neutrois, which I think of as the gender of not really having a gender.

We are sort of similar. But I'm comfortable with my body being physically female. You are going for physical androgyny, no? If you think about it as expression/identity/physicality, I'm androgynous/______/female. And I'm MAAB, so I'm transsexual as well as non-binary.

I would say the first choice describes me best.  Both genders (as I understand them).  Sometimes one.  Sometimes the other.  Sometime both at once.  And always in conflict.  I'm complicated.

Quote from: Jamie D on November 19, 2012, 08:43:44 PM
I would say the first choice describes me best.  Both genders (as I understand them).  Sometimes one.  Sometimes the other.  Sometime both at once.  And always in conflict.  I'm complicated.

Sounds very noisy in your head, Jamie. I guess I'm sort of your opposite (not that opposites really make sense for gender...). All empty inside.

sorry but im new to this , have never spoken to another androgyne  ,i just thought an androgyne was androgenous i was born male but dont identify myself as male i know im a mix of both and am just me i, i do what i want to do and behave as i want to  others can either accept me or not its irrelevant to my personal happyness i love who i am and have a fun and happy life

Finalyfree, sounds to me like you're at the right place. Welcome!

I definitely identify as male, but I'm starting to acknowledge a lot of feminine traits in myself and some desire to have some physical traits that are more feminine than what I have. For instance, I am naturally inclined to bulk up when I work out when I wish I were more inclined to slim down and just get more lean and defined. I've tried and somewhat succeeded in learning to appreciate this and realize that a more clearly masculine-shaped body is attractive to some people. Sometimes I think if I had been taller, I'd appreciate my ability to bulk up my muscle more, so I kind of waiver on that. Prolly has nothing to do with androgyny. Does that make sense?

At times in my life some could even be described as full-on dysphoria. For instance, I became extremely uncomfortable with my facial hair as it was growing in during my high school years and some portion of that lingered for more than a decade. I identify as male and am attracted exclusively to men, but the type of men I'm most attracted to tend to be more androgynous. Over time my dysphoria has lessened quite a bit but isn't completely gone and my tastes in men remains reasonably broad but will always lean toward the androgynous type. The hyper-masculine type simply doesn't do it for me (bears?). Sometimes admitting this in gay circles will get me labeled as not really gay or not gay enough or some nonsense like that just as admitting I'm often attracted to trans men will, also an ignorant response. I've actually developed an appreciation for well-groomed facial hair and even sometimes wish I could grow a healthier beard than I actually can. Anyway, I'm starting to veer off topic for this thread--sorry. But that's my story. :)

Something else just occurred to me. I remember as a child, maybe just a little prepubescent at that time, when an older sister said something about eating spinach or something like that so I could get big muscles and I absolutely cringed. I think I may have even said something--expressed my disgust at the idea of being muscular because I also seem to recall some uncomfortable expressions on my sisters and mom in response to what I said. This was before I realized I was gay, before I was experiencing any real clear sexual attractions to anyone. That memory and the feelings that went with it stuck with me even after I started coming to terms with puberty.

The thing is, I don't know how much of what I experienced had anything to do with some small degree of ->-bleeped-<- or if it was just typical for kids going through puberty and being weirded out by the strangeness of it all.

I think it's natural to have a reaction when someone pushes or rushes you towards a path that you are not interested in or not prepared for.  Even if the idea is something that is nice in theory (being strong), there are all kinds of extra ideas that come with becoming strong, and those ideas can be overwhelming.  Furthermore, even if you're open to an idea, if the person pushing you towards it is doing so with too much zeal, it's natural to question where all that energy is coming from.  Finally, you may not like the idea of being "manipulated" in this way to be convinced to eat spinach or do something you're not comfortable with.

There are lots of possible reasons.  Androgyny could be a part of it, but there are other explanations as well.

Quote from: dalebert on November 20, 2012, 01:45:30 PM
Something else just occurred to me. I remember as a child, maybe just a little prepubescent at that time, when an older sister said something about eating spinach or something like that so I could get big muscles and I absolutely cringed. I think I may have even said something--expressed my disgust at the idea of being muscular because I also seem to recall some uncomfortable expressions on my sisters and mom in response to what I said. This was before I realized I was gay, before I was experiencing any real clear sexual attractions to anyone. That memory and the feelings that went with it stuck with me even after I started coming to terms with puberty.

I get the feeling that your sisters were picking up on the fact that you were a gay little boy probably born that way and they knew it before you did. I recall my wife's little brother, and knew them all as little kids. I knew he was gay before that word was used in that context. Her little brother was a sweet kid, the apple of her eye and the two of them are still very close today. I recall when she came to me in fear and trepidation to tell me that her little brother, by then a grown man, had come out as gay, and the relief that came across her face when I said, "What are you going to do, throw the baby out with the bath water for God's sake?" I loved the kid just as she did. He and his partner will be spending Thanksgiving with us, both are great guys! I was also secretly beginning to deal with my own homophobia back then because of an inner revelation that I was probably Bi though I have never acted on it, but have known men that I was attracted to, I just never acknowledged it and stuffed the feelings. I remember an elder back in the day when I went to church who was married and had kids, but had lived a secretly gay double life. When he was exposed, the rest of the leadership put such ostracizing pressure on him that he committed suicide, I was pissed and angry and never went back. He had been a gentle, sweet man! Sorry to take up your post with all this, but your comments have brought this to the surface for me.

As for facial hair, I recall how I had always envied a couple of really masculine looking guys in eighth grade who already had dark beards and had to shave, I didn't even have peach fuzz and it concerned me. Years later when I was in Army basic training I was told to go back in the barracks and shave. All I had was blond peach fuzz by then, very sparse at that. Now I am at a place in my life where I wish I had never shaved because I've had to shovel out a small fortune to the electrologist just to get rid of what I do have. Oh well, life is short, eat your desert first!  ;D

Quote from: Kaelin on November 20, 2012, 04:31:30 PM
I think it's natural to have a reaction when someone pushes or rushes you towards a path that you are not interested in or not prepared for.

That's how I have thought about it thus far and only recently contemplated anything a bit more complicated. It was like they were rushing me into adulthood things with some sexual implications and it didn't help that they were my blood. I had an older brother who was gone a lot but I was mostly a boy surrounded by girls and women and at that moment I kinda felt like the one rooster in the hen house.

QuoteEven if the idea is something that is nice in theory (being strong), there are all kinds of extra ideas that come with becoming strong, and those ideas can be overwhelming.  Furthermore, even if you're open to an idea, if the person pushing you towards it is doing so with too much zeal, it's natural to question where all that energy is coming from.

Exactly! Why was my sister talking about me getting all muscled up? Ew.

QuoteFinally, you may not like the idea of being "manipulated" in this way to be convinced to eat spinach or do something you're not comfortable with.

A very reasonable hypothesis, but I remember it well enough to know that wasn't it at that moment. Picturing myself muscled was just seriously grossing me out and just wasn't in alignment with my self-image. Again though, I think it was mostly because I was still a kid and I didn't have more foresight about my upcoming puberty at the time. Also, because I was a good 2 or 3 years older than my local friends and so was the first one to start going through puberty, they made comments about my hairy legs. I'm actually not very hairy at all for an adult guy but compared to prepubescents, my legs really did seem extra hairy at that moment and that kinda stuck with me. I was always checking out other boys my age who had a more androgynous appearance and feeling wracked with jealousy. But the point is puberty caught me completely off-guard and left me kind of reeling for a while. I feel like I did ultimately come to terms with it, kind of observing that it was in fact happening to the guys around me as well and was "normal" so I'm not really inclined to interpret it as androgyny. More just the typical awkwardness that most teens go through but with extra gravy on top.

thank you shantel iv read some of your posts , you sound like a very interesting person .im asexua land always thought i was a ->-bleeped-<- have only recently found out i am an androgyne and it fits me perfectly

Nothing fits me perfectly.

There is dysphoria, but I seem to be able to live with it. Does that make me less "female", not cracking up and crying all day?

I'm sure that I am more of a woman, mentally, than most ciswomen. At the same time, I'm sure I'm more of a man, mentally, than most cismen. Guess I don't like people that much. And there's another one! Empathy is supposed to be positively correlated with prosocial behaviour. I'm empathic but not prosocial. It's not that I don't know what others are feeling, it's that I know too well. It's too much. I don't need to take strangers' problems upon myself, I have enough of my own. Introverted, yet not shy. Good theory of mind, but lacking psychopathic verve.

"Androgyne". ManWoman. What makes a man? What makes a woman? If I were a hermaphrodite, I might call myself that.

"androgynous": looks ambiguous, could be either. I'm not sure about that. When I look in the mirror, I either see a woman OR a man, it depends on what I'm going for at the time. If I really stare into the reflexion for ages, at some point, there's either the malevolent stranger or the scared little girl archetype looking back, most of the time.

@ dalebert: i think it's fairly normal to not like the thought of getting all hairy and muscular and all when you're the first among your peers. i remember my youngest brother thinking about shaving his body when he started growing fur on his legs, but he got over it and now accepts himself the way he is. but there are also guys who won't accept any hairiness or too masculine features on themselves, and would rather look beautiful for so long as they possibly can. and still id as gay, or some might also be straight or bi, i don't think it's limited to any specific sexuality. it's ok for a guy to not want to be buff (i'd still like him to be healthy though), and for a girl to want to be that. personally i don't see any strong link between that and gender

I am androgyne without being androgynous.  Mostly.

I can't choose between "both" and "neither."  Both and neither of those are true. :)

I am an Androgyne, and ID as both male and female. My gender expression, however, is androgynous. It's a confusing attempt at trying to explain the complexity of my inner workings and physical exterior.

Quote from: Schu on December 04, 2012, 09:34:55 PM
I am an Androgyne, and ID as both male and female. My gender expression, however, is androgynous. It's a confusing attempt at trying to explain the complexity of my inner workings and physical exterior.

Me Too!

Before I found this site, I don't think I'd ever hear those words. It's a comforting thought!

Quote from: DrillQuip on December 04, 2012, 02:33:35 PM
Wow. top result is male identified andros. That's pretty interesting, I didnt expect that.

Can't tell how many are AFAB or AMAB though.

Quote from: DrillQuip on December 04, 2012, 10:09:59 PM

Quote from: Forum Admin on December 04, 2012, 10:02:26 PM
Can't tell how many are AFAB or AMAB though.

That's true. Still, its interesting.

Yeah, I'm one of the ones who picked it and wasn't expecting it either. Pretty cool actually.

  The question of what characteristics make a man or woman has been around forever and quite honestly, I can't answer it definitively now any better than I could twenty years ago. Maybe the question is wrong.

At the moment my ginger identity is like an old stero system with a knob for bass and another knob for treble.  lets call the bass male and treble female, most of the time both knobs are all the way up but it seems as if the male knob has been turned down a little bit while they both move a little bit every couple of hours the male isn't going as high as it used to.  Like I'm changing from being fluid both <-> neither to both<-> female my look has slowly changed toward a positive androgynous look basically it has changed from man in dress toward bearded lady with help from hormones but I think most people still see me as man in female clothes.

Currently I present myself as male, just because it's easier. But I like some of the male-ish traits also, so that it's ok for me if people get confused or just cannot choose something (though for now they choose male because I use a male voice). I also have some feminine traits, so I am working on it and I hope someday people become 50-50ed when seeing me (I would like to be able to present & pass as both).

For now I find it to be hard to achieve, but I'll keep trying... :)

"Are you an Androgyne or are you just androgynous? "

I'm an Androgyne. :)

Just as a quick side note, I posted into this thread for 1,5 months ago and my gender id has changed. Nowadays I don't feel a girl at all. I feel I'm in the middle but just agender, or maybe a male androgyne. (That doesn't mean that I'm not feminine per se, femininity/masculinity has very little to do with gender in my head.) It used to feel funny to experiment with having girly dresses and stuff, and now it only feels awkward to get read as a girl. Luckily my friends have commented that I look a lot more androgynish than I used to even a month or two ago.

Funny how impossible it is to see where I'm going, this feels like just an endless forest trip or like Bilbo leaving with the dwarves for the first time, or Sam stopping on the field and thinking he's the farthest from home he's ever been. Not that I'm a fantasy nerd or anything, but I just get this feeling of this being my personal trip with a great ring of power that needs to be thrown into a fiery pit of Mount Doom, and I don't even know what or where the ring is or where I need to take it. :P ::)

Quote from: Phoeniks on December 22, 2012, 07:07:34 AM
Not that I'm a fantasy nerd or anything, but I just get this feeling of this being my personal trip with a great ring of power that needs to be thrown into a fiery pit of Mount Doom, and I don't even know what or where the ring is or where I need to take it. :P ::)

Wow! What a great way to say this.

Gender: Androgyne. Should be self-explanatory. Key word: SHOULD.

Androgynous? I'll let you decide on that.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi584.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss286%2FconcreteBuilding%2FPhotoon12-26-12at434PM_zps0f2fb448.jpg&hash=a62c2c001067dec6517453a6f95f711bce2052a3)

Very.

The Androgyne section has a reputation for drifting.
Just because it hasn't for a while, doesn't mean it can't.
While the thread that can't be derailed is used extensivly, it's still gonna happen in threads.
It's easy enough to get a thread back on track, but it's also fun to just hear people's comments, regardless.
The pic was to make a point, I don't think it got the thread derailed at all.
More people could put their pic of themselves up and still be in context.
They can also just make comments in that other section.
We are not held to boundaries here, it wouldn't be like us to do that.  :D
Ativan

Quote from: DrillQuip on December 27, 2012, 09:45:01 AM
Just because it can drift and thats interesting sometimes, doesnt mean it should. I dont want everyone to get caught up discussing how androgynous or not someone looks.

And your right about that. There is a thread for that, and you pointed that out.
But drifting is sometimes a lot of fun, and it isn't hard to pull a thread back to it's origin.
Drifting, even when frivolous, says something about the person.
But you did pull the thread back, just as you wanted to, so no harm done.
You did well in pointing that out.
I just find the drifting to be interesting, at times. It happens.
Either way, it's OK.
So back to the question.
I go by non-binary.
You would probably think of me as presenting female from behind, but from the front, definitely male.
Anything else is to confining right now.
So I started the poll with the just wanting to see how others answered.
This is a good thread and it does make a point.
Ativan

Okay.. I thought this probably meant "do you just look androgynous, or do you actually identify as androgyne" but apparently not (hence the picture). Nothing was meant to derail the thread. I misunderstood. I'll take down the picture if it's really that necessary.

I'll say this:

It seems that I'm so gender-neutral that I still get confused in what half the people here are talking about, yet I do relate very closely to them.

Yeah, a riddle. But I guess that's what being androgyne's about?

Quote from: concrete Building on December 28, 2012, 02:29:46 AM
It seems that I'm so gender-neutral that I still get confused in what half the people here are talking about, yet I do relate very closely to them.
Yeah, a riddle. But I guess that's what being androgyne's about?

Yes.
There are lots of questions here, some that you may not have thought of, and lots of people that can give you good answers.
Sometimes going back to the beginning of threads that you have interest in and reading through them helps.
There is excellent information here, it takes time to go through so much. It never hurts to start up another thread.
And your own input is valued as well. Everyone starts somewhere. Have fun.
(slight drift in this thread again, but it is a question that can be answered without completely derailing the thread.)
Ativan