I'm considering going on T for a limited time in order to gain a few subtle changes and make my appearance a little more androgynous. My questions to those on T are:
a) How long did it take for your bits to start to grow, and do you know if it's permanent even after stopping T? This is the change I'm definitely the most interested in.
b) How long did it take for facial hair to start to really come in? I wouldn't mind my body being slightly hairier, but I don't want to grow a mustache or beard. I'd be okay with having to occasionally shave though.
c) When did your voice start to drop? And one that might be harder to answer: if I were to stop taking T as my voice began to drop, would it stay in the crack-y, partially-dropped phase forever? Could I possibly train it to stay in my current range, similarly to MtF voice training? Based on the men in my family it shouldn't drop too far.
Thanks in advance!
Hm, well. I generally warn people to be a bit wary about taking T temporarily in hopes of becoming more androgynous-looking. because it really is about genetics, and it doesn't happen the same way for everyone.
For example, I'm 7 months on T, but I have not changed in the same way as others. I don't pass as male, in fact, people now read me as a heterosexual woman when they used to see me as a lesbian. My voice is cracky and flatter, but it doesn't pass for male just yet. I have had hardly any downstairs growth compared to anyone else. However, I have been very lucky in other departments. I seem to be able to gain muscle pretty quickly (if only I could stick consistently to exercising, lol), my fat redistributed, I am getting pretty hairy.
If you want, I can show you some videos of me pre-T and then me now.
Don't do it. If you might regret any of the changes that could happen (for which there is no timeframe or order in which they happen btw) then don't go on T. It's not something to be played with like that.
Most all the changes from T are permenant. Voice change, facial hair, clit growth, body hair --- the changes that go away from stopping T is that your body fat will revert back to the female placement and you will lose muscle mass. The body hair might get thinner and less noticable but going from ftm you can expect most of the hormone changes are there for good.
Quote from: Cain on November 12, 2012, 01:41:44 PM
I'm considering going on T for a limited time in order to gain a few subtle changes and make my appearance a little more androgynous. My questions to those on T are:
a) How long did it take for your bits to start to grow, and do you know if it's permanent even after stopping T? This is the change I'm definitely the most interested in.
b) How long did it take for facial hair to start to really come in? I wouldn't mind my body being slightly hairier, but I don't want to grow a mustache or beard. I'd be okay with having to occasionally shave though.
c) When did your voice start to drop? And one that might be harder to answer: if I were to stop taking T as my voice began to drop, would it stay in the crack-y, partially-dropped phase forever? Could I possibly train it to stay in my current range, similarly to MtF voice training? Based on the men in my family it shouldn't drop too far.
a) That was the first and most immediate change for me. It took about 1 month to notice drastic change, and it seems to have stopped growing any more after 3 months. These are permanent changes.
b) facial hair is the most slowest change for me. Currently, at 7 months, I have very thin and sparse sideburns. I probably shave once a month. but probably within 3 months, all the rest of my body hair became darker, thinker, and just more of it. I started growing hair on my lower stomach right away, but no where else on my chest yet.
c) My voice started to crack at 3 months. I was passing as a gay guy at 5 months.
I don't think your voice would stay cracky forever, I think it does that as it's getting used to be stretched to the new normal pitch.
Don't do it. If you can't handle everything that comes with testosterone then don't take it. T is not a beauty product, its a medication. It's also unhealthy to mess around like hormones with that.
I got a full beard pretty rapidly. It really is genetics. It sounds like you only want clit growth? Facial and fat changes seem to take awhile (months instead of weeks)compared to clit, voice, and beard. Voice for me, started changing immediately. Facial hair followed very closely after. Unless you're only planning on going on it for say, a couple days to a week, steer clear if you don't want these things.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 12, 2012, 02:42:48 PM
Don't do it. If you might regret any of the changes that could happen (for which there is no timeframe or order in which they happen btw) then don't go on T. It's not something to be played with like that.
Agree.
A: Almost immediately, and yes, it is PERMANENT.
B: Once again, almost immediately and it is PERMANENT.
c) Thrice, almost immediately and it is PERMANENT.
I have been on T since 9/19/2012. Believe me, the difference is like comparing night and day and it happens very quickly (or so that is my own experience, from both endogenous and exogenous sources of androgen).
Further, in the beginning of penile growth (and yes, I consider it penile rather than cliteral), trying to please it is very difficult. There is both too much and not enough there to get the job done and I don't feel you would be very satisfied with it. Trust me. It takes, or so I hear, a minimum of five years for you to achieve full growth and potential with your erectile tissues downstairs. A short, temporary basis on androgens will NOT give you the results you are undoubtedly looking for in only a couple of months or less. You will be frustrated, I feel.
It (also in my personal experience) is PAINFUL in the beginning of the changes (and I suffer from nerve damages, and also have a high pain threshold). From the larynx, to the penis to even the muscle and ligaments. Why? Because it happens a lot more quickly for us than for cismale adolescents. By the way, ligament and connective tissue development, unlike muscular development, is PERMANENT also, and happens just as rapidly as the rest of the changes.
To sum up, this is a very big and permanent decision to make and so I hope you will give it the time and care it deserves. If you have even a shadow of a doubt that you can live with these changes to your body for the rest of your life, then DON'T do it.
Quote from: mangoslayer on November 12, 2012, 03:54:13 PM
Don't do it. If you can't handle everything that comes with testosterone then don't take it. T is not a beauty product, its a medication. It's also unhealthy to mess around like hormones with that.
Thirded.
Testosterone will NOT make you androgynous. It will make you a man. None of the "subtle" changes will make a huge amount of difference — you'll likely need to go on and off T periodically in order to maintain those changes (during which time you will continue to develop) which will wreak havoc with your body. Testosterone changes are largely permanent (especially genital growth) but I would imagine that being off T for some time would cause some gradual feminisation as estrogen becomes the dominant or "active" hormone.
Testosterone is a medication. It is dangerous. There is a reason that we have such "gatekeepers" and you require frequent monitoring/bloods etc. You can seriously damage your health. If you want to appear androgynous, please consider non-medical alternatives.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 12, 2012, 02:42:48 PM
Don't do it. If you might regret any of the changes that could happen (for which there is no timeframe or order in which they happen btw) then don't go on T. It's not something to be played with like that.
Quote from: mangoslayer on November 12, 2012, 03:54:13 PM
Don't do it. If you can't handle everything that comes with testosterone then don't take it. T is not a beauty product, its a medication. It's also unhealthy to mess around like hormones with that.
Quote from: Lord of the Dance on November 13, 2012, 12:40:41 AM
Thirded.
Testosterone will NOT make you androgynous. It will make you a man. None of the "subtle" changes will make a huge amount of difference — you'll likely need to go on and off T periodically in order to maintain those changes (during which time you will continue to develop) which will wreak havoc with your body. Testosterone changes are largely permanent (especially genital growth) but I would imagine that being off T for some time would cause some gradual feminisation as estrogen becomes the dominant or "active" hormone.
Testosterone is a medication. It is dangerous. There is a reason that we have such "gatekeepers" and you require frequent monitoring/bloods etc. You can seriously damage your health. If you want to appear androgynous, please consider non-medical alternatives.
AMEN.
I don't think I can add more. You have your answer right here.
My voice still hasn't settled at 2 years on hormones. I'm still sort of in a teenager phase. It can take up to 5 years to fully settle. I noticed growth down there pretty quickly. I do know one person who went on T for two years then stopped. Growth wasn't completely permanent. There might be some shrinking depending on how long you're off T and how long you've been on it before stopping.
I don't shave regularly. I have hair covering my stomach and chest, some on my back, my buttcrack is VERY hairy. I didn't have noticeable facial hair for a very long time. After 1 year, I guess there was some.
I do know there is voice training (just don't do the boom your voice stuff, it can wreck your vocal cords).
Quote from: mangoslayer on November 12, 2012, 03:54:13 PM
Don't do it. If you can't handle everything that comes with testosterone then don't take it. T is not a beauty product, its a medication. It's also unhealthy to mess around like hormones with that.
Negatron. All of the changes are really things that could possibly happen. You could die taking T, you could have increased cholesterol, but you also could have zero changes. It's not exactly unhealthy to take testosterone for the short term, for some people there are negative side effects which they can't handle. They go on it until these negative side effects pop up or become too much and stop. I know one trans guy that was on T for 3 years, stopped T, got both top and bottom surgery, and continued not taking T.
Quote from: Nygeel on November 13, 2012, 02:02:34 AM
Negatron. All of the changes are really things that could possibly happen. You could die taking T, you could have increased cholesterol, but you also could have zero changes. It's not exactly unhealthy to take testosterone for the short term, for some people there are negative side effects which they can't handle. They go on it until these negative side effects pop up or become too much and stop. I know one trans guy that was on T for 3 years, stopped T, got both top and bottom surgery, and continued not taking T.
Even if you can't see them, there are changes to your system that can permanently alter your body's functions.
Quote from: Nygeel on November 13, 2012, 02:02:34 AM
Negatron. All of the changes are really things that could possibly happen. You could die taking T, you could have increased cholesterol, but you also could have zero changes. It's not exactly unhealthy to take testosterone for the short term, for some people there are negative side effects which they can't handle. They go on it until these negative side effects pop up or become too much and stop. I know one trans guy that was on T for 3 years, stopped T, got both top and bottom surgery, and continued not taking T.
The off chance that you might not experience negative medical issues from taking T short term is not a good enough reason when the only reason you want to take it is you want your clit to grow.
...And if you want your clit to grow, there are pumps for that. Just sayin'.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 04:03:27 PM
The off chance that you might not experience negative medical issues from taking T short term is not a good enough reason when the only reason you want to take it is you want your clit to grow.
I agree that it's probably not a good idea to use T unless you are male because you can't "pick and choose" what changes you have, or how it affects you internally, but I don't think the
only reason they want T is for clit growth.
Sorry, I just feel like quite a few people are reading this and thinking they only want T for the clit growth when they only said that it was the one they were "most interested in." I don't know anywhere else on the internet where you can get this level of support and wouldn't want someone to get completely put off posting here, and getting information to make better informed choices.
Quote from: Alex000000 on November 13, 2012, 04:53:19 PM
I agree that it's probably not a good idea to use T unless you are male because you can't "pick and choose" what changes you have, or how it affects you internally, but I don't think the only reason they want T is for clit growth.
Sorry, I just feel like quite a few people are reading this and thinking they only want T for the clit growth when they only said that it was the one they were "most interested in." I don't know anywhere else on the internet where you can get this level of support and wouldn't want someone to get completely put off posting here, and getting information to make better informed choices.
Based on only the information in their post that seems to be the only reason. They say they wouldn't mind their body being more hairy but that they don't want facial hair, they don't even want their voice to change. All in all it's a bad reason to start T.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 04:58:43 PM
Based on only the information in their post that seems to be the only reason. They say they wouldn't mind their body being more hairy but that they don't want facial hair, they don't even want their voice to change. All in all it's a bad reason to start T.
Maybe I read it differently to other people then, and put too much emphasis on "make my appearance a little more androgynous". I assumed that they would want some other changes than clit growth if they wanted to appear more androgynous, because generally 99% of the people you meet don't see your genitals. Looking back on it I think their post could be read two ways, but I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt if it makes them keep coming here for support and information.
Quote from: Alex000000 on November 13, 2012, 05:11:56 PM
Maybe I read it differently to other people then, and put too much emphasis on "make my appearance a little more androgynous". I assumed that they would want some other changes than clit growth if they wanted to appear more androgynous, because generally 99% of the people you meet don't see your genitals. Looking back on it I think their post could be read two ways, but I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt if it makes them keep coming here for support and information.
They do mention wanting to be more androgynous but T in the short term will not do that. Instead they should work on changing their hair, clothing style, and mannerisms.
No matter how you identify ... trans*/genderfluid/androgynous/etc/etc aren't we all just trying to be more comfortable in our own skin? Perhaps more comfortable in our appearance and therefore more confident?
I could have written the exact same thing as the OP, in fact I took T originally for the exact same reasons. I wanted to see if I could get some subtle changes and be more comfortable with my body. Under a doctor's supervision I don't see a problem with someone wanting to take T to appear either more andro or more male (my doctor was right on top of it monitoring me, it wasn't working out well and I was feeling crappy and I stopped).
What? It's totally all different because most of you want to be on it for life? Is it exclusive only to "males" now? 'Cause that's kind of the vibe I'm getting from some of the responses. Whereas if someone comes on here lamenting how they're male and trapped in an awful, wretched female body and they can't "pass" they're given a pat on the back, welcomed into the fold and told, "When you can get on T man it will be better!" Yeah, there's a lot of "think really hard about transition" type of talk too, which I don't have any problem with that and I think that's something that someone who's considering transition should be exposed to. But it sounds like OP doesn't actually want to fully transition? They didn't say specifically, but are hormones like T now only reserved for those who want to fully transition?
I don't think any of us should be making a judgement call on the OP. As far as I can see they asked 3 simple questions. They didn't ask for all our opinions on whether they should do it or not or whether they're really "male" or not or given a lecture on how you can't "pick and choose" side-effects or how if you "can't handle" all the changes you shouldn't take it. That "can't handle it" thing is a particular hot button for me. It's like when someone says, "You can't handle the truth". It's a weighted statement implying that you're better and they're lessor.
And now people are saying things like it's "unhealthy to mess around with hormones like that"? Seriously? What do you think taking T long term is doing to your body? You're synthetically altering your whole body system to gain a more male physical appearance. You are changing your natural hormones to elevate one of them to unnatural levels, and doing it for years. But you know what, a lot of people make that personal choice anyway. It's kinda like how someone can make a personal choice not to take it for years.
Additionally there's people on these boards that identify as androgyne that I've seen mention taking hormones. It's not just an exclusive treatment to FTM/MTF individuals. And people do actually decide to stop taking hormones for whatever personal reasons ... even after only a short time. It's not unheard of. What changes happen (good or bad) and how fast while on T is completely variable and unique to the individual as multiple people have pointed out. And no, you can't "pick and choose" what you get, but if someone wants to try to take it temporarily and not for the rest of their lives then that's their personal choice.
Also ... no one's offended by the repeated reference to "clit"? I'm shocked, cause you know usually someone would have already been here to reprimand anyone who's not using the appropriate, non-trigger-causing terms ... The OP used "bits", not clit.
Androgynes have taken T, I think actually there are a few on the androgyne forum. You might ask there. OTOH, if you want specific changes and don't definitely want others, there is no way to pick and choose. You have to decide that you are ok with any changes. You won't know which ones these are. Usually what androgynes want with T (or HRT) is mental.
You *may* get changes pretty fast depending on your age and dosage.
--Jay J
Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 13, 2012, 07:51:14 PM
What? It's totally all different because most of you want to be on it for life? Is it exclusive only to "males" now? 'Cause that's kind of the vibe I'm getting from some of the responses. Whereas if someone comes on here lamenting how they're male and trapped in an awful, wretched female body and they can't "pass" they're given a pat on the back, welcomed into the fold and told, "When you can get on T man it will be better!" Yeah, there's a lot of "think really hard about transition" type of talk too, which I don't have any problem with that and I think that's something that someone who's considering transition should be exposed to. But it sounds like OP doesn't actually want to fully transition? They didn't say specifically, but are hormones like T now only reserved for those who want to fully transition?
I don't think any of us should be making a judgement call on the OP. As far as I can see they asked 3 simple questions. They didn't ask for all our opinions on whether they should do it or not or whether they're really "male" or not or given a lecture on how you can't "pick and choose" side-effects or how if you "can't handle" all the changes you shouldn't take it. That "can't handle it" thing is a particular hot button for me. It's like when someone says, "You can't handle the truth". It's a weighted statement implying that you're better and they're lessor.
If a person doesn't want to transition they shouldn't be playing around with hormones that are used mainly for that purpose. They aren't beauty products. You can't choose or control the effects you get. Those are truths. If you go into taking a body altering hormone thinking you can somehow sway the changes you get and you get a change/changes you don't want you may end up hating your body more than you did in the beginning, all because you wanted to be more androgynous or something, when you can change things like your hair, clothing style, and mannerisms to get a similar effect.
Since I fell somewhat into the whole "you can't pick and choose" camp, I should clarify my answer a little more. I do know a number of non-binary people who have taken T, some who have stopped and some who are still on it as far as I am aware after a number of years, and have experienced a significant increase in happiness as a result.
I mostly just gave the response I did because I was surprised at the order in which hormones affected my body. I did a LOT of research before I began T because if I was going to take it I was (and personally, still am) going to take it forever - and you honestly don't hear a lot from people who experience changes in a drastically different order, like I have. I just wanted to put my own experience out there as something to consider.
Although, I'm sure that you know you have my full support in whatever you choose, Cain. I consider you a friend and I've seen what you have gone through with your dysphoria over the past...year? Maybe even two.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 08:17:02 PM
If a person doesn't want to transition they shouldn't be playing around with hormones that are used mainly for that purpose. They aren't beauty products. You can't choose or control the effects you get. Those are truths. If you go into taking a body altering hormone thinking you can somehow sway the changes you get and you get a change/changes you don't want you may end up hating your body more than you did in the beginning, all because you wanted to be more androgynous or something, when you can change things like your hair, clothing style, and mannerisms to get a similar effect.
I disagree. Of course hormones aren't used mainly for the purpose of transitioning genders. HRT has a wide range of uses, up to and including being prescribed for varying degrees of gender dysphoria. And yes there's side effects, no matter if you've got a problem with your gender or not.
And I've been trying for years now to get that same "effect" with just clothes and hair and it ain't happening. People call me ma'am all over the place. Yet I have zero desire to "transition". I can not say that if someone told me, oh yeah you could go back and do some hormones without the ill effects as before, I would not take them up on it ... and then consequently stop taking them when enough changes happened that I at least got a 60/40 response from people thinking I was male or androgynous enough that they'd error on the side of male rather than female. That would make me happy.
I just don't think that judgement call is yours or mine or anyone else's but the OPs to decide whether they want to try to take hormones, for however long, with whatever risks are associated with them. Especially since they didn't specifically ask for an opinion, just information. And the attitude that only people wanting to transition should be taking them and everyone else who may want to take them just to change their body to fit them more is just "playing" with them is exclusionary and flippant.
Yes, it is their call but if they take hormones without being willing to accept any and all changes that could occur then they are in for a world of unnecessary problems they will be causing themselves.
If you are not taking hormones for transition purposes but simply to look "androgynous" then you shouldn't be taking them and your doctor should have their medical license taken away. I consider that to be playing with hormones, they aren't a jacket you can try on for size.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 10:09:34 PM
If you are not taking hormones for transition purposes but simply to look "androgynous" then you shouldn't be taking them and your doctor should have their medical license taken away. I consider that to be playing with hormones, they aren't a jacket you can try on for size.
Your opinion of course but I don't see it that way and I still think it's inconsiderate of what other people may be going through and making light of the situation all in one swoop. You're lumping everyone who isn't fully transitioning into a category that they're just playing around as if it's some department store changing room.
If looking androgynous fixes dysphoria for someone how is that any different at all from you wanting to look and be male? If it's not possible to do without the use of some hormones, for a limited time, how is that different? Your dysphoria is what led you on the path to taking T. It's not fashion, it's not beauty, it's trying to be more comfortable in your own skin. You're just taking it x-amount of steps further because in your particular case just looking a certain way isn't enough. You're doing the whole 9 yards to fix your particular problem. Some people may not have to. But according to you, those people shouldn't even have that option. It should be denied to them because only the real transsexuals who are willing to transition all the way should be allowed to have HRT.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 10:09:34 PM
Yes, it is their call but if they take hormones without being willing to accept any and all changes that could occur then they are in for a world of unnecessary problems they will be causing themselves.
If you are not taking hormones for transition purposes but simply to look "androgynous" then you shouldn't be taking them and your doctor should have their medical license taken away. I consider that to be playing with hormones, they aren't a jacket you can try on for size.
Dude did you steal my brain?? v_v
Everything you are writing is stuff I would have written.
Needless to say, I agree with Wheat 100%.
I agree with insideontheoutside here. But I am not sure if I read this OP post entirely correctly. If it were one effect or two, I'd say no way. OTOH, I agree re: that low dose T (or HRT) can help some androgyne/non-binary people to feel more comfortable in their own skin from what I have read. I actually know of a butch who is taking it. But unless your expectations are *very* realistic going in then you are going to be too happy, I think. There are a couple youtube people to take a look at, esp earlier vlogs. Both of them have since transitioned to male, but Meiko Elias and YaninBaninan identify as non-binary. Yanin was on low dose for quite a number of years and now at 4 years completely presents as male. You can see from Yanin that low dose is still T. It has taken a LOT longer but he still is male.So in a way there is no "low dose" only slower dose. Therapy might help if you could find a therapist who was comfortable working with non-binary people. If you know what it is doing and why, I think you will be in a better place to make decision.
I have some sympathy here is I really identify as non-binary. I want it in "male skin" but I feel for me that the gender binary doesn't apply. Dysphoria is dysphoria, and non-binary people do have it. I don't think it is easy being non-binary, but you still should go into what ever you are going into with open eyes.
--Jay J
Taking T short term isn't likely to make one androgynous. It will however gain someone a lot of changes they don't really want, like a changing voice and thicker body hair. Those were my first changes. My looks hardly changed for months, but my voice and body hair changed very quickly. Same for most other guys I've talked to. So in the long run you are likely to look and sound like a man, not androgynous.
May I add;
Once your voice has dropped, it has dropped permanently.
It'll never go back to your original tone.
You could do voice training like some girls do,
but I highly doubt you'd ever sound the exact same as you did before.
Also voice training is hard and you need to think about it 24/7.
Think wisely before taking t.
The voice is usually one of the first changes.
''Once you go black, you never go back.''
Same for your voice dropping if you were to take t.
I was on T for about 3 months and guess what didn't happen? I still sound like a 15 year old boy. Which is how I've sounded since I was well, 15. Everyone is different. I'd love to have a permanent voice drop. That would make me a hell of a lot more androgynous male. It didn't happen though so I'm stuck, but if someone else could have the opportunity to effect some change on their body to make them more comfortable with themselves, I wouldn't deny them that. I don't personally approve of plastic surgery (and surgery is just as life altering and permanent and risky as hormones) but if that's what someone needs to feel better about themselves and they go through the hoops with a doctor to do it, then it's not my place to tell them, "no you can't ... you're not _____ enough to do that."
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 08:17:02 PM
If a person doesn't want to transition they shouldn't be playing around with hormones that are used mainly for that purpose.
Transition means different things to different people. For some folks, transition involves taking T for a short time and stopping. Transition can mean transition to a more androgynous sound or appearance (such as acquiring facial hair or just getting a haircut or wearing different clothes). If he does his research and gets his ducks in a row and knows what he is getting himself into, then shouldn't he transition in the way he is most comfortable with?
I can envisage the biggest problem actually being with the application method. I don't know exact time scales, but nebido stays in your body for a very long time, other injectables for still quite a while I would of thought, and gel for a short time. If you're on injectables - and you might not get a choice - then you could potentially be happy with the changes, stop T and by the time it's out of your system have changed too much.
But I think helping someone make an informed choice considering all the eventualities is what's needed, not our own version of gate keeping or thinking androgyne are just making a fashion statement - just the general vibe I'm getting off a few people.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 10:28:20 PM
Taking T short term isn't likely to make one androgynous. It will however gain someone a lot of changes they don't really want, like a changing voice and thicker body hair. Those were my first changes. My looks hardly changed for months, but my voice and body hair changed very quickly. Same for most other guys I've talked to. So in the long run you are likely to look and sound like a man, not androgynous.
Exactly. I think this is the point people are trying to make - not that anyone not identifying as male shouldn't take T. When I first came out, I wasn't sure I wanted the full beard, deep voice and hairy gut, chest, butt crack, etc. and everything else (even though I id-ed as male). I took T because I needed to pass as male regardless. Luckily, I was pleased with those changes when they happened. If I hadn't been, I would have been stuck.
Sure, individual cases may not get one result or another, but you can't bank on that. You also can't go by anyone else's results unless you've got their genes (and maybe not even then). If someone doesn't want to look and sound like a man, T is probably not the way to go.
Not that this is the OP's motivation (I would not presume to guess), but there are some general misconceptions floating around about T.
Some guys admire the look of some naturally androgynous male models, rock stars, etc. and think it can be duplicated. Or that how they look as a female has any bearing on how androgynous they'll look after T. Or that taking a low dose or stopping after a short period will control the result.
One only has to browse the mtf forums to see how unpleasant these permanent changes can be when unwanted. This is why you really have to be pepared to live with any result you get, regardless if you're the most binary ftm or the most androgynous.
Let me present cody : http://www.youtube.com/user/CodyOriole (http://www.youtube.com/user/CodyOriole)
They are genderqueer and have been on T for a vary long time. They are much more comfortable with T so I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to take it. Nor do I see any reason why op shouldn't take it as long as they know that they can't pick and choose. Cody was on a vary low dose of T and still is.
I would use gel and/or a low dose on T if I was op.
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on November 14, 2012, 05:30:54 AM
I would use gel and/or a low dose on T if I was op.
Gel is the same as injectables in terms of changes, providing the blood levels are the same.
Quote from: .caleb on November 14, 2012, 07:16:29 AM
Gel is the same as injectables in terms of changes, providing the blood levels are the same.
I said gel because if op gets something they don't like they can just stop. With injections you take them weekly or bi weekly so you can't just stop if you don't like it.
Wow, I wasn't expecting all these replies! I'd reply to each of you individually if I had the time, but I'm on a bit of a schedule today.
For the people who gave me YouTube recommendations, thanks. I'll be sure to check those out.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 05:15:45 PM
They do mention wanting to be more androgynous but T in the short term will not do that. Instead they should work on changing their hair, clothing style, and mannerisms.
Like insideontheoutside, I've tried this. I've had top surgery, I dress in mostly men's clothing, I pack sometimes, I have a men's haircut. I still get read consistently as female; I can count on one finger the number of times I've gotten sir'd without the person correcting themself.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 13, 2012, 10:23:54 PM
If looking androgynous fixes dysphoria for someone how is that any different at all from you wanting to look and be male? If it's not possible to do without the use of some hormones, for a limited time, how is that different? Your dysphoria is what led you on the path to taking T. It's not fashion, it's not beauty, it's trying to be more comfortable in your own skin. You're just taking it x-amount of steps further because in your particular case just looking a certain way isn't enough. You're doing the whole 9 yards to fix your particular problem. Some people may not have to. But according to you, those people shouldn't even have that option. It should be denied to them because only the real transsexuals who are willing to transition all the way should be allowed to have HRT.
+1 to you, sir. Thank you. I may not be making what most consider a 'full' transition, but that does not make it any less valid. There are reasons I'm considering T that go far above and beyond the concerns I've posted here, but the underlying cause is dysphoria. And if you'd deny me treatment for my gender dysphoria just because it's not the same as yours, then wow.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 13, 2012, 07:51:14 PM
Also ... no one's offended by the repeated reference to "clit"? I'm shocked, cause you know usually someone would have already been here to reprimand anyone who's not using the appropriate, non-trigger-causing terms ... The OP used "bits", not clit.
I'm not offended by the term 'clit,' but I really appreciate you pointing this out. It would seem that since I'm not 'fully' FtM, my bits are female. I too am rather surprised by this.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 10:09:34 PM
If you are not taking hormones for transition purposes but simply to look "androgynous" then you shouldn't be taking them and your doctor should have their medical license taken away. I consider that to be playing with hormones, they aren't a jacket you can try on for size.
Who said I wasn't 'transitioning' to a more androgynous state? This is as much a part of my physical transition as anything else I've done.
Quote from: .caleb on November 13, 2012, 09:06:44 PM
Although, I'm sure that you know you have my full support in whatever you choose, Cain. I consider you a friend and I've seen what you have gone through with your dysphoria over the past...year? Maybe even two.
Year and a half, I think. :) I understand what you're saying. I know that T doesn't work the same on everyone and the effects can't really be predicted. You weren't trying to discourage me the way some others are.
I'll probably stop by and say more later, but I'll leave you with this: I'm honestly kind of surprised at the responses I've gotten. I was fully expecting people to try to convince me not to take T, but to say that a doctor who prescribes it to me should have their license taken away? To suggest that I'm not really transitioning, but using T as a beauty product? To disregard the possibility that I might be triggered by gendered language because I'm not FtM? This all seems a little extreme.
Thanks for respecting my pronouns at least, guys.
People just don't understand ftn's (can I call you that). I myself felt like an ftn some time ago. Now I feel more like a male that don't really care about gender if that makes sense. That or an agender ftm that feels more like a guy.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 13, 2012, 10:09:34 PM
If you are not taking hormones for transition purposes but simply to look "androgynous" then you shouldn't be taking them and your doctor should have their medical license taken away. I consider that to be playing with hormones, they aren't a jacket you can try on for size.
So any doctor that allows informed consent for hormones should have their medical license taken away by this logic?
You just have to sign you know what it will do to you with informed consent, - not justify why you want to do it.
Hormones in this context are considered gender-confirming health care. That means the whole spectrum, not just one side of the binary.
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on November 14, 2012, 12:07:53 PM
People just don't understand ftn's (can I call you that). I myself felt like an ftn some time ago. Now I feel more like a male that don't really care about gender if that makes sense. That or an agender ftm that feels more like a guy.
A good statement that kind of sums up how I feel. I also feel that T is appropriate if the person knows the effects and which are permanent and is comfortable with them. I think there is a bit of anti-androgyne sentiment in some posters, but maybe they may not understand that non-binary folks do have gender dysphoria too.
--Jay J
Quote from: spacerace on November 14, 2012, 07:40:02 PM
So any doctor that allows informed consent for hormones should have their medical license taken away by this logic?
Informed consent is b.s to me.
We don't have informed consent for insulin, or any of those other drugs.
So we shouldn't have it with this one either.
ESPECIALLY considering how drastic and dangerous it can be.
So yes, any doctor that exercises informed consent should indeed face consequences.
It's crazy that HRT is given away like free freaking candy.
No matter my dysphoria, I did it the right way and went with a good doctor that diagnosed me first.
Any doctor that gives away ANY prescription without a medical diagnostic, to me is not a qualified doctor.
It's not a damn game.
I'm gonna stop myself right here before I get myself banned.
Sick of these people thinking it's a game. And the ones encouraging this aren't better.
Now go on, reply about how wrong I am.
Blah blah. I'm out of here.
There's no informed consent for insulin because there doesn't need to be. A simple blood sugar test is enough to show if you've got some sort of blood sugar problem, and from there diabetes can be diagnosed and insulin given. With GID there's no hard and fast rule, so things like informed concent suddenly become necessary. I suppose you could say that encourages 'playing' with hormones or thinking of them as a 'veauty product' but it doesn't. It enables people who need them to get them. People who work in mental health talk a load of bull most of the time in my opinion. Some of them are good apparently - - just going off other here have said - but a lot of them are so airy-fairy that they don't have a clue about the real world. Maybe that's just my luck, but it proves that it does happen, and you can't be guaranteed to get hormones just because you're trans. In my eyes informed consent is saying, "We can't accurately say if you do/do not have GIC, so we're going to tell you the risks and trust you on this one." It also works because not everyone needs the same things in order to be comfortable. It's like when I had trigger finger, tried the steroid injection and it made it worse, he couldn't tell that the pain was worse, but he trusted me and gave me the operation. If he could trust a 13 year old to decide whether surgery was the best option for them then I can't see why they shouldn't trust an adult to have access to something which will helpl make them feel right in their own body.
Quote from: Jayr on November 14, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
No matter my dysphoria, I did it the right way and went with a good doctor that diagnosed me first.
Any doctor that gives away ANY prescription without a medical diagnostic, to me is not a qualified doctor.
It's not a damn game.
I'm gonna stop myself right here before I get myself banned.
Sick of these people thinking it's a game. And the ones encouraging this aren't better.
There is still a physical. Blood tests. Required check-ins. The doctor is a MD practicing in a hospital. It is not candy. The only difference is there is not a pretense of a mental illness.
The GID diagnosis is a subjective test anyways - there are no raw numbers to confirm "trans-ness"
Who exactly is playing a game? Seems to me people are just looking to be happy with themselves.
I gotta say, it really hurts to be invalidated by a member of your own community. Don't we have enough to deal with from people who are ignorant, why eat our own?
Quote from: Jayr on November 14, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Sick of these people thinking it's a game. And the ones encouraging this aren't better.
You know what I'm sick of? People like you who know sh** all about what I've been through telling me and others like me that I don't have gender dysphoria and I don't have a right to a treatment of my choosing, but you do. You think I didn't get medical diagnosis first ... multiple times ... over years of my life? I'm sick of people like you telling me I'm playing some sort of "game" simply because I'm not transitioning the way you are. This flippant little attitude that you're so much better because you THINK that you've done something the "right" way and you THINK that everyone else isn't entitled to get a fraction of the treatment that will get them feeling more comfortable about themselves, is nauseating.
I'm also sick of one minute everyone cheering T like it's some sort of miracle with very little side effects and then the next saying it's "drastic and dangerous". Double standards, much?
Quote from: Jayr on November 14, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Informed consent is b.s to me.
So yes, any doctor that exercises informed consent should indeed face consequences.
It's crazy that HRT is given away like free freaking candy.
You don't think that just because you've been diagnosed with a disorder that there isn't "informed consent" with your own treatment? Had to sign any paper work at your doctors office? That's informed consent to allow them to treat you. So your statement is wrong. If you really thought it was b.s. you wouldn't be having any treatment at all. And exactly who is giving away HRT like candy?
T is part of a treatment for gender transition just as much as it's part of a treatment plan for gender dysphoria. Do I really need to point out the fact (again) that gender dysphoria has a wide variation?
Just throw your little tantrum and get out, because obviously you don't have an open enough mind to even continue this discussion with ignorant, discriminatory, comments like that.
Quote from: Jayr on November 14, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Informed consent is b.s to me.
We don't have informed consent for insulin, or any of those other drugs.
So we shouldn't have it with this one either.
ESPECIALLY considering how drastic and dangerous it can be.
So yes, any doctor that exercises informed consent should indeed face consequences.
It's crazy that HRT is given away like free freaking candy.
No matter my dysphoria, I did it the right way and went with a good doctor that diagnosed me first.
Any doctor that gives away ANY prescription without a medical diagnostic, to me is not a qualified doctor.
It's not a damn game.
I'm gonna stop myself right here before I get myself banned.
Sick of these people thinking it's a game. And the ones encouraging this aren't better.
Now go on, reply about how wrong I am.
Blah blah. I'm out of here.
In my country it's impossible to get hrt if you are not hetrosexual and a vary stereo typical man/woman. Not many people fit that so it's only a small part that can get hrt that way. All us others need to look other ways. It is vary hard to do because they place I talked about before takes all the other places down one after one. It surely isn't free candy, it's more like hard work to find somewhere to get hrt.
Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 01:54:32 AM
Lol Not trying to get banned, so I'll leave it at that.
And if you're not trying to get banned, try being a little more considerate of what other people have been through before mouthing off. It's been a long time since someone's sent me into a mood to throw my fist through a wall, and I apologize for losing my cool, but really you're dissing me directly with that rant and completely disrespecting a whole cross section of trans/non-binary/andro people. Nevermind the "informed consent" misinformation you have. You're acting like you're the only legit trans person and everyone else is just "playing". WTF is that? Seriously.
Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 01:54:32 AM
The more places have informed consent; the more regretters we'll have.
I'll let that speak for itself.
Lol Not trying to get banned, so I'll leave it at that.
Instead of punting why not defend your opinion?
The chance that someone, somewhere, might regret a decision is enough to tell people they can't transition unless it is done exactly the way you did it? Really?
Do you think that informed consent is going to suddenly cause droves of people to run out and ask for T? What exactly is the impact you are afraid of?
Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 02:16:43 AM
Lol
Too lazy right now to focus on this thread..
Have fun getting upset and punching walls because of me.
-
You just told other trans people they're only "playing a game", on a trans support forum. "lol! it's really funny, haha I made them mad! silly internet people!"
Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 02:16:43 AM
Lol
Too lazy right now to focus on this thread..
Have fun getting upset and punching walls because of me.
-
Nice. Really. I love being lol'd at for who I am and for having the balls to stand up about it.
You know what's a game? You on this thread. And now that you've tracked mud in here and have no pot to piss in to defend your own flimsy opinion and misinformed "facts", you bounce. Well, played. Toodles.
Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 02:42:57 AM
Please tell me what is the point of arguing with a wall? Let me tell you; None.
I said what I thought, you take it how you want. We both strongly believe in something and neither will move from that stance.
Therefor there is no point in neither of us arguing/debating. It would be a waste of my time and your time.
I got heated earlier but now I'm cool. If you want to get mad and break your knuckles against a wall, go right ahead.
Once again; No point in neither of us defending our personal opinions since neither will budge.
If you want to see it as a sign of you 'winning' this 'debate'. That is fine by me. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
-
You're not just stating your opinion, you're attacking a whole range of people and telling them they shouldn't be allowed to get any treatment. At no time in this whole thread have I said that what you're doing by taking HRT and transitioning from female to male is wrong or that you shouldn't be allowed to do it or that you don't have the right to get the treatment you need. But that's what you're telling me and a whole range of other people. I get enough crap like this from non-trans people, I don't expect to get it from other trans people on what is supposed to be a SUPPORT forum.
The OP originally posted a few questions and didn't ask for your opinion, they asked for information. If you're going to give an opinion, don't be jerk about it and invalidate a whole cross section of people. This isn't about a debate now, it's about pointing out to someone who obviously doesn't get it that their responses, on a support forum, are inconsiderate and uncalled for. And when it was pointed out, you just made it worse by being flippant about it. And while it's clear you're not going to change your mind, you need to think really hard about how your responses are well beyond a simple opinion and how they can come off to other people.
Hi friends :police:
Time for a time out
Take a break, take a breath and find something constructive to do for awhile
Topic temporarily locked
Thank you
V M
Topic unlocked
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OP, ok, so let's say you start T and stay on it long enough to have the changes you want, but in the meantime you get a bunch of other changes you don't want. What are you going to do if the unwanted changes come on more strongly and faster than the wanted changes? Stop T without getting anything you wanted? Tough it out and have a whole bunch of stuff you didn't want? I'm genuinely curious.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 15, 2012, 07:18:48 PM
OP, ok, so let's say you start T and stay on it long enough to have the changes you want, but in the meantime you get a bunch of other changes you don't want. What are you going to do if the unwanted changes come on more strongly and faster than the wanted changes? Stop T without getting anything you wanted? Tough it out and have a whole bunch of stuff you didn't want? I'm genuinely curious.
This is a very good question, and it's one I don't have a definite answer to. However, that's not for lack of thinking about it. I don't have a set time period that I'm planning on taking T. I'd take it one day, one week at a time, and when I reached a point where I was satisfied, or where the bad changes outweighed the good, I'd stop. Or I might not.
I'm sorry if that's not a satisfactory answer, but it's the best I've got. And it's not like I'm planning on starting tomorrow. I've done a lot of thinking, but I've a lot of thinking still to do.
Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 02:42:57 AM
personal opinions
It might be your ~personal opinion~, but when your ~personal opinion~ is that my path, my transition, my identity is invalid next to yours, I have a problem with you.
Oh lord.
Never said your identity was invalid buddy.
And if your ~personal opinion~ is that anyone can take HRT for whatever reason, I also have a problem with you.
VM made it clear we couldn't argue here so,
Agree to disagree.
The end.
Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 09:02:28 PM
And if your ~personal opinion~ is that anyone can take HRT for whatever reason, I also have a problem with you.
You know what? Yes. I believe that anyone should be able to modify their own body however they want. It's their body and their life, not mine.
I have an honestly curious question. It's going to sound harsh. Why do you care what I do with my body? Why would you limit me in my choices that have no bearing on anyone's life but my own?
Quote from: Jayr on November 15, 2012, 01:54:32 AM
The more places have informed consent; the more regretters we'll have.
I'll let that speak for itself.
Lol Not trying to get banned, so I'll leave it at that.
You are probably right. The entire idea behing the therapy standards and the RLE criteria is to minimize regrets.
Informed consent sort of short circuits that system, and opens up the possibilities for mistakes.
Quote from: Jamie D on November 15, 2012, 09:14:33 PM
You are probably right. The entire idea behing the therapy standards and the RLE criteria is to minimize regrets.
Informed consent sort of short circuits that system, and opens up the possibilities for mistakes.
What does it matter how many people regret their actions? I'm a firm believer that people should be given the freedom to make their own mistakes, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. If I go on T and later regret it, no one but me cares. No one else is hurt.
Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2012, 09:21:04 PM
What does it matter how many people regret their actions? I'm a firm believer that people should be given the freedom to make their own mistakes, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. If I go on T and later regret it, no one but me cares. No one else is hurt.
It matters because a lot of people don't go "oh, I've had surgery and irreversibly changed my body with hormones, oh well" instead they sue doctors, clinics, therapists, a whole host of people. Because they did informed consent but they weren't sure so they feel the "doctor should have known" or they screwed themselves over by lying to their therapist to get hormones quicker when they weren't ready and once they realize what the truth of being on hormones is they regret it and feel their therapist "should have known" they were lying. Its sad but it happens and it slows down the process to getting care to those who need it.
Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2012, 09:21:04 PM
What does it matter how many people regret their actions? I'm a firm believer that people should be given the freedom to make their own mistakes, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. If I go on T and later regret it, no one but me cares. No one else is hurt.
That is true, you are a free agent, and you are the sole "owner" of yourself. To the extent you want to modify your body, that is your decision alone. When you start to include doctors and surgeons, they are going to look at future liability issues, and informed consent may no longer prevail.
Genderqueer people or other trans people sometimes do take hrt. Some of them use informed consent and some get letters. Many of them take a lowered dose. Low dose does not change the fact that changes will occur, some of which you may or may not like. In fact, low dose actually does masculinize the person, there is no way out of that. Usually masculinizes at a slower rate but then I suppose nothing is guaranteed.
There are quite a few options to do informed consent. According to the TOS, the doctor should do an effect job of going thru possible side effects (and what are considered wanted effects) in great detail. I don't know if there are actually more people who detransition since there is informed consent or even that if someone who is genderqueer and stops hrt that they are actually detransitioning anyway.
"HRT letters" are not problem free either. Quite a number of people have seen therapists for months or years and do not get their letters due to some game playing, desire for monetary gain, or whatever. Others may see a therapist for large amts. of money, which they can't afford and for little reason but because the therapist is just a gatekeeper. No doubt that real transsexuals (I hate the term-- but just want to delineate who I am talking about) have been denied hrt by therapists. Therapists are not gods. The other thing is that transgender is not a psychiatric condition. Therapists are put in the position of labeling people who should not have labels.
I believe the poster here is trans enough. Whether he should take T, is up to him and his doctor.
--Jay J
OP, if you're mostly interested in growth downstairs, you could try pumping. They do make clitoral pumps that can permanently increase your size down there with regular usage.
One thing I do to enhance size and blood flow downstairs is a routine cis guys use. Depending on your size, you can definitely modify it. It's called jelqing. For me, it seems to produce longer lasting results than pumping, such as increased girth and length, and increased hardness. :)
I used informed consent to get hrt. I don't regret anything and I'm not suing anyone, but I guess I'm still a "regretter" or some nonsense. Oh and my dr is crappy and needs his license revoked. I hate this thread.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 16, 2012, 12:44:34 AM
I used informed consent to get hrt. I don't regret anything and I'm not suing anyone, but I guess I'm still a "regretter" or some nonsense. Oh and my dr is crappy and needs his license revoked. I hate this thread.
No one said everyone who used informed consent is a regretter or was suing anyone.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 15, 2012, 09:27:53 PM
It matters because a lot of people don't go "oh, I've had surgery and irreversibly changed my body with hormones, oh well" instead they sue doctors, clinics, therapists, a whole host of people. Because they did informed consent but they weren't sure so they feel the "doctor should have known" or they screwed themselves over by lying to their therapist to get hormones quicker when they weren't ready and once they realize what the truth of being on hormones is they regret it and feel their therapist "should have known" they were lying. Its sad but it happens and it slows down the process to getting care to those who need it.
Do you have a source for this information, did you read about it somewhere - or are you just assuming it happens?
Strangely, the doctors that allow informed consent don't seem to be getting sued all over the place. You know how I am pretty sure this is true? Because if doctors or therapists were getting constantly sued they just wouldn't offer the service anymore... No one is making them do it, in fact is probably easier to ask for a letter.
If they lost money on it or it caused hassle, they would just stop.
It would also get out that people were being sued and other doctors would stop providing informed consent in response. This is not happening at all, it actually seems like the opposite is occurring.
FWIW and I don't know if this helps any but I remember articles here in Australia about people suing the Melbourne Gender Dysphoria Clinic years ago. And they were mostly people who didn't give just informed consent. These were people who were diagnosed by a shrink - misdiagnosed in their opinion and had regrets. For a start if you're interested I found http://www.ftmaustralia.org/media/?tag=melbourne-gender-dysphoria-clinic (http://www.ftmaustralia.org/media/?tag=melbourne-gender-dysphoria-clinic) - again I don't know if it's too relavent but thought it worth a mention seems people don't think it happens.
As for the OP - take T mate..or don't!!. As you said it's your life. So long as you do your research and KNOW what you're in for - fill your boots! I would strongly suggest a chat with a therapist too. But just know too that you have no one to blame but yourself if you don't get what you want (not to say that you won't - could be the best decision of your life - it was of mine!). People are right in saying that not everyone's transition is exactly the same - for me it has been hormones and surgeries, and a transition from F to M.
Now read this carefully - I don't understand how people like to live in the grey area on the gender spectrum. The best thing is - I don't have to! That's not to say that I don't accept it's existence and other's rights to live as a feminine man or a masculine woman or any and all variations in between :) The only thing I don't like seeing is people who complain when they don't get the changes they want and/or changes they hate. And those who think hormones are some magical "cure" - not to say that you are one of those people. You like what T does for you great take it, you don't - then stop. Complaining and blaming others does nothing.
IMHO I agree with the possibility of people regretting their decision based on informed consent alone - they haven't had a chat with a shrink nor been assessed to make sure there are no other underlying issues. I think it is needed to have a talk with a shrink - and not just telling them what's necessary to get hormones the fastest way possible - let's face it is what we really want once we decide to take them! But actually having a discussion about why, when and your feelings and stuff :D
For me at least I think it boils down to getting a little bit scared that the easier it is to get hormones, the less hoops there are to jump through, the easier it will be for the medical profession to take it away if it ends up in the hands of someone who just said the right things at the right time.
And that would have to be one of my top ten fears - someone telling me I can't have my T.
Jay
That's an interesting article. However, as pointed out, those are both examples of people who were actually seen by a psychiatrist and diagnosed - not people giving informed consent without a GID letter.
Now, the obvious response to what I just said is "Informed consent will increase the number of people transitioning and getting hormones/surgery, which will in turn increase the overall number of lawsuits." Will it really? I have no idea, I bet it increases a tiny bit but not all that much. How many people are out there saying to themselves "Man, I really want to transition but I just don't want to deal with that therapy crap! Guess I'll stay in this silly old female body!"
"Well, spacerace, what about all these gender queer people who are just playing and co-opting my medical condition? Won't they run out and get hormones only to regret it two months later when they move on to their next gimmick?!"
First of all, just to clarify, I think it is reprehensible to look at it in this way. Denying someone's expressed gender identity is never acceptable. Think about someone telling you "you're just confused" "aren't you just a butch lesbian?" - How would that make you feel? Awful, right?
Additionally - there's still hoops to trip them up and remind them how serious what they are doing is. You have to go to a doctor, get a physical, blood tests. You can't do it until you are 18. You have to get a shot regularly or rub gel on yourself everyday, or however you are taking it. Commitment is still involved. Also, they are consenting adults who should be able to do to their body whatever they want, and live with their decisions once they are made. People make terrible choices for their health constantly.
"But more lawsuits mean my hormones could be taken away"
What is the tipping point for this? Do we just assume there is a magical number of lawsuits that will take away hormones and surgery for everyone in the whole country/region/world? What's to say informed consent would get anywhere remotely near making this happen?
The impact of someplace like a gender clinic getting sued out of business is just that - the gender clinic will close. Other gender clinics and doctors will learn from the mistakes of Terrible Gender Clinic. If that means they no longer offer informed consent - then it happens. People will have to go to therapy again. No one instantly loses hormone access. You know what would really get a doctor sued? Suddenly cutting people off of hormones. Not going to happen just because of a lawsuit.
"But all of the doctors and surgeons could be sued out of business and then there would be no one left to help anyone"
This is not an instant process. Thousands of simultaneous lawsuits are not going to all be filed at once. Even if informed consent did cause a rapid flood of lawsuits - it would be noticed very quickly and doctors would stop offering informed consent. You know who is on top of who is suing them and why? Doctors, hospitals and their lawyers. They would stop if it was obvious a trend big enough to make an impact on the availability of trans health care was happening, way before it ever became a problem that threatened access.
Finally - informed consent for hormones only seems to be increasing. We're going to see what happens when more people get gender confirming health care without huge hassles whether people like it or not.
It's entirely up to you, OP. Some people take HRT forever, some people only take it to get some specific changes and some only use meds to block the effects of what's currently in their bodies.
Also: even with informed consent, people still have to have health checks to ensure that they have no underlying hormonal problems or other conditions that would make HRT (or at least some forms thereof) unsafe for them. At least, in my case, which has been handled so far on an informed consent basis, I had to just have a blood test, confirm that I have no severe allergies and just generally show that I am well enough.
As for those going on about "transtrenders": you are baffling. Just baffling. I can't honestly think of somebody, except for a person who had utterly lost touch with reality entirely, risking being disowned and losing everyone they know for "fashion". I am not on speaking terms with blood relatives, I can never go back to the village I used to live in and I certainly can't have contact with people I knew in high school, because I'm trans and queer. I've had to deal with people being absolutely obsessed with me and harassing me for not being "normal" to them. I've been doxed, as part of said harassment. These are not things people deal with for the sake of fashion trends.
This probably isn't what you were referring to exactly but anyway: "How many people are out there saying to themselves "Man, I really want to transition but I just don't want to deal with that therapy crap! Guess I'll stay in this silly old female body!"
This is pretty much me. Therapy is possible for me to get, it wouldn't get me hormones until I was 18 but it might get me put onto blockers and would certainly make it quicker to get hormones when I turn 18 because I would already have the diagnosis, but there is no way I'm doing it. I can't put myself through that again. Because of the way the NHS is funded there is only one place I can go to, and because of past mental health problems - and because my personality and how therapy works clashes - only one doctor there will accept to see me. He won't let anyone below him see me because apparently I'm too much responsibility for them, at too much risk and too hard to handle. There's no one above him either. So he's the only one who would see me and he's a sadist who admits he enjoys making me angry and more depressed than I was when I walked in. He wouldn't let me stop being seen either and only managed to get out of the mess because of the system screwing up when we cancelled a meeting and it never got rearranged so I slipped off his radar.
So there are some cases where therapy is too much to deal with just to get hormones. Putting myself at the mercy of someone who made me feel that awful and down isn't something I will EVER do, even if I wind up depressed or in hospital again. It terrifies me because I don't know whether this will reflect badly on me when I get to 18 and wouldn't be under his section of mental health anymore, and because there's no way to get help again if I have problems with depression again.
If there was a way to not go through him I would jump at it. Even if it still meant that I had to wait until 18 to actually get the hormones.
Therapy doesn't work for everyone anyway. Once I know the answers they expect to their questions its almost impossible for me to make an honest response because I know what each thing i say will lead them to concluding. When they asked the depression questions I had no idea whether I wanted to say 'yes' because I truly felt it, or because I was just desperate for help. It's doesn't help that most people don't fit nicely into their boxes, and I feel like saying something other than what I 'should' will make them judge me.
Regarding informed consent clinics, they do (as at least one person here pointed out) tend to assess the person medically. I had been on T for over a year when I decided to start using the informed consent clinic and save some money. I'm not saying that my clinic is typical--and there are things I don't like about it, so I might be stopping soon--but here are the hoops I had to jump through, even though I was already on T and had changed all documentation but my BC (can't change it in my birth state):
An initial screening by the program director (not an MD)
A detailed medical history
Paperwork to read and forms to fill out
Submission of a detailed written plan for the next five years of my life
A physical exam
A long talk with the doctor about the effects of T, even though I was already on it
A recommendation for an annual mammogram, even though I had had top surgery (they obviously made a mistake with me)
A recommendation that I see a GYN, since annual visits are required by this clinic
A recommendation for an AIDS test
A recommendation for other STD screening
Pre-T blood tests (I couldn't get a scrip until the results were in--and the clinic takes blood every time I go--about three times a year)
As I said, my clinic might not be typical, but this is hardly a case of giving out hormones like candy.
Anyway, the OP is only trying to find his way. If he ultimately decides that T is right for him, he can go on a low dose or gel and stop at any time. For some folks, especially those who do not identify as solidly male, trying it is the only way to find out if it is right.
I am not in any way suggesting that people who aren't sure should just bounce off to their local informed consent clinic and start shooting up. I am saying that not everyone identifies in a binary way, and those folks have as much right to transition in their own way as anyone who is pretty much binary.
As long as people know the risks and possible rewards, recognize that sex hormones are serious business, and make a careful, informed choice, who are we to deny them that? In fact, if I had tried to transition when I first came out, I would have been denied because, even though I did identify as male, I (1) had been molested as a child, (2) wasn't sure about bottom surgery, and (3) am gay. If the first two hadn't disqualified me, the third most certainly would have. Because, you know, gay trans men don't exist. Now a person is likely to be told by a therapist that he has to be either male or female and nothing in between. But some people ARE in between and need to find ways to reflect that in their bodies. T is good for some of them, not so good for others, and a complete mistake for still others. They and their medical advisers are the ones who must decide.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 15, 2012, 09:27:53 PM
It matters because a lot of people don't go "oh, I've had surgery and irreversibly changed my body with hormones, oh well" instead they sue doctors, clinics, therapists, a whole host of people. Because they did informed consent but they weren't sure so they feel the "doctor should have known" or they screwed themselves over by lying to their therapist to get hormones quicker when they weren't ready and once they realize what the truth of being on hormones is they regret it and feel their therapist "should have known" they were lying. Its sad but it happens and it slows down the process to getting care to those who need it.
Is there evidence of this happening a lot?
And no one's circled back to my point that just about every medical treatment requires informed consent. Unless it's an emergency situation where life and death is on the line, there's going to be papers for you to sign. Doctors, dentists, psychologists ... before they treat you, you have to sign that you authorize them to treat you and that you acknowledge the risks. That paperwork is a legal document that helps to protect against a lot of the lawsuits (unless it's a case of gross negligence, signing that doc waves your ability to easily sue a medical practitioner). As for the clinics, as Arch pointed out there's still a ton of steps and hoops to jump through.
Also from what I can see and having been through the process myself, a doctor prescribing HRT for ANY reason needs to be closely monitoring the patient for adverse reactions and this should include any unusual emotional/metal issues that might come up. And it's my belief that if anyone decided that HRT was not right for them their doctor would probably be the first to know about it because the prescription would be stopped. After having signed all that paperwork to even see the doctor combined with all the monitoring and tests the doctor was doing while you were on it, a lawsuit that the doctor was negligent would be difficult at best
I think there are far more other drugs out there that are more freely prescribed than Testosterone. Also, since the term, "Low-T" has made it into the drug companies marketing tactics, things like T cream and shots are being marketed more to men. So I still think there isn't a mad rush of people who *think* they may be trans trying to hit their doctors up for it and it's still mostly male born individuals that are the main recipients of prescriptions.
In short, I think this an irrational fear that you may "have your T taken away" or that it may be harder to get a trans diagnosis and treatment if all these lawsuits are indeed happening, but it's nothing more than a fear because I don't see evidence of this happening a lot.
Also, as I'm sure Arch can attest to, things have gotten easier, not harder, in the realm of trans diagnosis and treatment. When I was about 14 a psychologist diagnosed me with "gender identity disorder". The treatment they were recommending was basically anything and everything to get my mind to align with my body – basically make me become 100% female (the psychologist didn't know my particular medical history btw). It was everything I didn't want and it did a lot of damage (just the diagnosis itself, my parents didn't opt for the "treatment" thankfully). So there was no potential for me to even consider transition or taking hormones when I was younger because they psychologists considered me mentally ill – that I has just constructed this all in my mind. There were not the options there are today. They wanted you to conform to your biological gender and if anything was amiss (like being gay or not actually wanting surgery) then just forget it. I think way more opportunity has opened since then and it's finally being acknowledged that yes, trans is a real thing, there are people who are non-binary, etc. It's certainly not main stream but it's a hell of a lot better than it was in the 80s. Yes there are still the hoops to jump through but at least it's possible and I don't think it "enables" "transtrenders".
When I was finally taking seriously the possibility of medical transition--that is, when I finally ran out of the energy it took for me to NOT transition--I, too, thought about starting T and stopping it. However, I used that possibility as a way to cope with the idea that I might lose my partner if I went too far; the start-and-stop idea wasn't because I didn't ID as male.
My therapist told me about a client of his who had considered that possibility and who ultimately quit after his voice dropped enough--so, just a few months. Maybe he (she?) identified more as a butch than a man, or maybe this person, like me, wanted to keep his/her long-term relationship intact. From what I gathered, the ex-client was finally living a happy and balanced life.
Quote from: Cain on November 12, 2012, 01:41:44 PM
My questions to those on T are:
a) How long did it take for your bits to start to grow, and do you know if it's permanent even after stopping T? This is the change I'm definitely the most interested in.
b) How long did it take for facial hair to start to really come in? I wouldn't mind my body being slightly hairier, but I don't want to grow a mustache or beard. I'd be okay with having to occasionally shave though.
c) When did your voice start to drop? And one that might be harder to answer: if I were to stop taking T as my voice began to drop, would it stay in the crack-y, partially-dropped phase forever? Could I possibly train it to stay in my current range, similarly to MtF voice training? Based on the men in my family it shouldn't drop too far.
Thanks in advance!
Did we forget what this thread was about? I think so.
@Alex000000. People always assume--- go to therapy, it's good for you. Never thinking that therapy itself CAN potentially be damaging (just like any other treatment). I would add that there are unknown damages to "bad therapy". Btw, at the center that I go to I essentially had informed consent to have counseling. I don't think it included all the possible damages of bad therapy. I am not saying therapy is alway (or even usually) bad. But saying there are reasons, sometimes for people not wanting to have it.
@Arch-- I agree. The form for informed consent is such that the person would need some other reason to sue. We have a litigious culture, no doubt. And where there's a will there's a way. But I don't think it is so easy to sue over informed consent. The idea that somehow there will be so many lawsuits over informed consent that someone won't get T, wouldn't they just tighten it up first, if that were the case? I don't think there is any proof that it is the case.
@Cain-- probably. Threads develop a life of their own after about 5-7 posts. Don't even know if the OP is still reading. :)
--Jay J
Quote from: Christopher_Marius on November 17, 2012, 02:48:47 AM
Who
Me. OP. Haha, I'm still reading. I just don't know what to say at this point.
Quote from: Cain on November 17, 2012, 11:21:45 AM
Me. OP. Haha, I'm still reading. I just don't know what to say at this point.
I thought he talked to Christopher :-\
Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 15, 2012, 01:57:29 AM
I'm also sick of one minute everyone cheering T like it's some sort of miracle with very little side effects and then the next saying it's "drastic and dangerous". Double standards, much?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think people say that there are fewer UNDESIRABLE side effects of T when it's a full-blown FTM taking it, since most of the effects make them more masculine, which is desirable.
If you're taking it for any other reason, you may not like the results.
Permanent effects:
1. Sterilization and ovary atrophy. Could lead to a cessation of periods.
2. Body hair growth.
3. Male pattern baldness.
4. Grown clitoris and less vaginal lubrication.
5. Deepened voice.
6. Lowered to no more estrogen production.
Reversible effects (Stop when you stop taking T):
1. Acne
2. Estrogen's decreased production (If T is stopped EARLY)
3. Male fat distribution.
4. Initial breast reduction due to loss of fat.
5. Vein prominence and thick skin.
I'm warning you:
think this through... HARD.
Quote from: Christopher_Marius on November 17, 2012, 01:02:00 AM
Did we forget what this thread was about? I think so.
Quote from: Christopher_Marius on November 17, 2012, 01:02:00 AM
Did we forget what this thread was about? I think so.
No, people just think that unless you're a TrUe TrAnSeXuAl you shouldn't get treatment. I'm sorry, but I really think the OP and others like him got thrown under the bus. I really thought susans was better than the likes of Tumblr, but I guess not. I'm really disappointed with this community and the trans community at large. I feel if you need T for whatever reason and whatever your level of dysphoria you should get it. I did do informed consent and I'm not looking to sue my Dr or anything like that. In fact, I'm RELOCATING and uprooting my entire life and moving 1,000 miles away from home to start saving money for top surgery. While I did not have a letter, I was still serious about my transition and not some BS "regretter" how dare anyone say that I or others like me are. Some may be and stop taking T, but it's their choice. There would have to be mobs of people to start suing clinics for trans* people to stop getting treatment altogether. You can't blame less than 10% of the population on a T shortage. Cis guys use it too. I'm so sick of this crap and people getting bullied online for being who they are and doing what they need to do to get the treatment they need REGARDLESS of their level of dysphoria. I may get banned or lose rep points or whatever. I just get really worked up about it.
Darrin, I don't think everyone agreed with these sentiments. I know I didn't as well as Arch, insideontheoutside, and a couple others disagreed.
--Jay J
Quote from: aleon515 on November 17, 2012, 09:40:06 PM
Darrin, I don't think everyone agreed with these sentiments. I know I didn't as well as Arch, insideontheoutside, and a couple others disagreed.
--Jay J
Maybe and Maybe I'm coming a little late to the party, but this subject is a sore one for me. I think I might just stay out of the thread. It cab ne quite triggering.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 17, 2012, 09:34:24 PM
I'm so sick of this crap and people getting bullied online for being who they are and doing what they need to do to get the treatment they need REGARDLESS of their level of dysphoria. I may get banned or lose rep points or whatever. I just get really worked up about it.
I don't think anyone agreed with those sentiments. You may be a bit late to the party, but, if it makes you feel better, not everyone feels that way. Also, I upped your reputation for speaking your mind and being a stand-up, supportive fellow. :)
Anywho, as for the OP, I once again refer you to think this through. You can go on T if you want, but I just want you to think about it.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 17, 2012, 09:34:24 PM
No, people just think that unless you're a TrUe TrAnSeXuAl you shouldn't get treatment. I'm sorry, but I really think the OP and others like him got thrown under the bus. I really thought susans was better than the likes of Tumblr, but I guess not. I'm really disappointed with this community and the trans community at large. I feel if you need T for whatever reason and whatever your level of dysphoria you should get it. I did do informed consent and I'm not looking to sue my Dr or anything like that. In fact, I'm RELOCATING and uprooting my entire life and moving 1,000 miles away from home to start saving money for top surgery. While I did not have a letter, I was still serious about my transition and not some BS "regretter" how dare anyone say that I or others like me are. Some may be and stop taking T, but it's their choice. There would have to be mobs of people to start suing clinics for trans* people to stop getting treatment altogether. You can't blame less than 10% of the population on a T shortage. Cis guys use it too. I'm so sick of this crap and people getting bullied online for being who they are and doing what they need to do to get the treatment they need REGARDLESS of their level of dysphoria. I may get banned or lose rep points or whatever. I just get really worked up about it.
No one is saying that everyone who does informed consent wants to sue anyone. No one said those who start T under informed consent are regretters either. I have nothing to say in regards to T shortages because I haven't done any kind of researching about that.
I'm also curious why you are relocating in order to save money for top surgery. It would seem more logical (unless you are moving for a job) to stay in place and not have to spend moving and living costs while finding a job.
Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 17, 2012, 09:34:24 PM
No, people just think that unless you're a TrUe TrAnSeXuAl you shouldn't get treatment. I'm sorry, but I really think the OP and others like him got thrown under the bus. I really thought susans was better than the likes of Tumblr, but I guess not. I'm really disappointed with this community and the trans community at large. I feel if you need T for whatever reason and whatever your level of dysphoria you should get it. I did do informed consent and I'm not looking to sue my Dr or anything like that. In fact, I'm RELOCATING and uprooting my entire life and moving 1,000 miles away from home to start saving money for top surgery. While I did not have a letter, I was still serious about my transition and not some BS "regretter" how dare anyone say that I or others like me are. Some may be and stop taking T, but it's their choice. There would have to be mobs of people to start suing clinics for trans* people to stop getting treatment altogether. You can't blame less than 10% of the population on a T shortage. Cis guys use it too. I'm so sick of this crap and people getting bullied online for being who they are and doing what they need to do to get the treatment they need REGARDLESS of their level of dysphoria. I may get banned or lose rep points or whatever. I just get really worked up about it.
YES. I'm not a "regretter" or whatever either, and the way my case is being handled, is as much like pure informed consent (i.e. don't have to prove gender) as current legislation and rules will allow. I am a capable adult and being treated as such, and that's what I want for everyone, and this includes the reproductive rights arena. I want to be on T permanently, but I can still understand that some don't. I don't think they are less worthy of help than me, and I really just don't feel threatened by non-binary people at all. I don't understand being so threatened by non-binary people either. It is nonsense.
I don't know how many people are threatened by non-binary people-- may just not understand it well. May feel non-binaries are binaries who just are on the way to being "transsexual" (I think this is true in some cases). Heck I don't understand it well and I am non-binary.
I like informed consent as I think you are treated as more of an adult and less pathologized. "Here you are sick, take this letter".
BTW, the whole issue of shortages-- is something almost unheard of about 10-15 years ago. I've heard a lot of stories on this from NPR, and not much anywhere else. I think that they are largely NOT created because of high demand. IN some cases they are actually manufactured to tip up the price of something. Or to place one large pharmaceutical company against each other and are caused from lack of regulation of large pharma in the US. (Since this effects the world, there will be shortages everywhere.) I can't say it will never happen for T, though it is usually specific (can't find one T might have to go on another). However you can be pretty sure if it happens it won't be because of informed consent. (Btw, I had this happen to me with a common seizure drug. It could be life threatening in some cases.) I am very cynical about this issue as I was effected by it and it caused a lot of problems like breakthrough seizures. But it was not caused because all of a sudden everyone had an unlimited supply of Tegretol. (You notice that aspirin or other cheap drug never has a shortage.)
There will be regretters with even the tightest forms of regulations. I think it is the nature of the condition. THere will also be regretters who will regret regretting and go back on T (or HRT).
--Jay J
Quote from: aleon515 on November 18, 2012, 11:52:12 AM
I don't know how many people are threatened by non-binary people-- may just not understand it well. May feel non-binaries are binaries who just are on the way to being "transsexual" (I think this is true in some cases). Heck I don't understand it well and I am non-binary.
I'm transsexual and non-binary. *Shrug* The non-binary spectrum is complex, and I get that people aren't always going to understand super well. That's fine. What I don't get is the leap from "I don't understand" to "you must be wrong and are incompetent to decide what you want to do with your body and your life." Or the bizarre assumptions that we aren't under medical care - I've been cleared by two separate gender therapists and a host of medical practitioners. And I didn't need to lie.
Hell, I'm more medically altered than 99% of the persons frequenting Susan's, and probably everyone in this thread. I am not a child. I know what I'm doing, thanks. Cain was asking for specific information about the effects of T. Does this sound like someone who just blindly rushes into stuff? From my perspective the people who ID as non-binary are WAY more careful about what they decide to do to their forms. It's the people who incorrectly latch onto the true-trans-standard-narrative that have ended up as "regretters."
More details about what happened when for me before I went on finasteride. So these are unimpeded changes on the so-called full dose--after an early menopause, so I guess my T didn't have as much estrogen to fight off. I was doing injections. I started off with biweekly but began doing weekly at a certain point. I started transition at forty-six. I am fifty now. I have been on T for three years and nine months.
I've been combing through my old journal and checking my video log. My voice was not really female anymore by three months in, and now I think that my voice was really more in the androgynous zone at that point. It's hard to tell. But before five months in, I was "passing" consistently, so my voice was good enough. My therapist said that I was in tenor range, and he should know; he is a singer.
I started seeing some downstairs growth in the first two weeks. I called it "a bit of growth--not a microphallus yet."
After nearly five months on T, I wrote up a progress report.
I had more downstairs growth, and my orgasms were much more intense than before. My fat was still redistributing to my belly. I had picked up some body hair (arms, legs), but not as much as I wanted, and the growth was a bit uneven. I had had a few stray hairs on my chest, but they disappeared under the surgeon's knife.
My hairline was male, and my hair was less thick, but I wasn't sure whether I was actually balding. I felt that my hairline was receding.
After about eight months, I did another progress report. By this time, I was on weekly injections.
This time, I noted that my thighs were still getting hairier and that the hair was coarsening. The hair on my arms was getting better, but I still wasn't satisfied (in fact, I still want more). My eyebrows were getting unruly, like my father's. I still had no real chest hair, but I had a nice happy trail and lots of pubic hair.
I had very nice sideburns (other FTMs envied them, so they were a strong point), but my mustache was terribly wispy, and the facial hair wasn't worth growing out yet. It was shaggy.
My hands had grown about a size, and the veins were more prominent.
I have been telling people that my vocal shift to baritone was impeded by finasteride, but now I see that this isn't true at all. I started going into baritone range after about 16 months, but I didn't go on finasteride until about 16.5 months in.
I have a video from that period, and I like the way I look in that video. I have a better haircut, my hairline is male, my face has masculinized quite a bit, and the voice is great, although I mention that I am still learning how to use it. A few weeks later, just about 17 months in, another video shows that my voice has stabilized nicely, although I say that I don't really know how to project.
According to my journal, I was a lot furrier all around, my skin was coarser, my Adam's apple was noticeable, my neck was thicker, and (of course), I had more muscle all over my body (the muscle started early on, but it was much more dramatic after more than a year). I had some fuzz on my butt (not sure when that actually started), and now I had more than a happy trail on my belly. My head hair darkened and coarsened; some of that might have been due to natural aging. (I used to have superfine blond hair, but it got darker and darker throughout my adult years. The same thing happened to my mother, but she wound up with brown hair, whereas I am still blond. Now, of course, I'm greying at the temples, and the grey hair is pretty coarse.)
I won't go on, since you are talking about taking T short-term. But I wonder what your male family members are like. As people have pointed out, genetics is key.
Anyway, I hope this gives you a better idea of what one guy went through.
Quote from: Arch on November 18, 2012, 03:21:20 PM
I won't go on, since you are talking about taking T short-term. But I wonder what your male family members are like. As people have pointed out, genetics is key.
Anyway, I hope this gives you a better idea of what one guy went through.
Thanks for this post, Arch. I don't have any brothers, but I have a lot of uncles. They're mostly clean-shaven, and I haven't seen any of them shirtless or anything, so I don't know much about their facial or chest hair. I know my dad can easily grow a full beard and has what's probably an average amount of body hair. I've heard you should look to your mother's father to determine how you'll bald, and my mother's father is balding quite a bit, but not as much as my dad. My dad started losing his hair at a younger age than I am now.
Do you know if finasteride has an effect on the rate of T changes? I don't know exactly how these things work, but one of the reasons I'm hesitant about T is that I don't want to lose my hair.
Finasteride inhibits DHT, which is responsible for lots of male changes, the ones we like best! So, yes, finasteride will tend to slow down transition. It might not do that to everyone. But if you plan to be on T for only a short while, and if you're still relatively young, hair loss might not be a problem. The only way to know is to try the T.
I am convinced that finasteride has been slowing down my body hair and facial hair because I took a break from it for three and a half months and noticed more dramatic changes than I'd had in quite some time. In addition, my voice just went through another major shift--not as dramatic as in the past, but I was cracking, and my therapist could tell that I'd shifted--so I wonder when all of that would have happened if I hadn't been on finasteride. I'm now off the finasteride because I want more body and facial hair. Also, I still hope to donate blood, but I can't do that while I'm on finasteride.
I've heard that the bit about looking to your mother's father is apocryphal, but I never really knew my maternal grandfather and don't remember what he looked like. I met him only once unless you count the time I was still teething. My hairline looks just like the hairline my father and older brother have.
You can't pick and choose your changes on T or the rate at which they come. If you're worried about regretting an irreversible change so much, then don't take the risk.
Quote from: DrillQuip on November 20, 2012, 08:37:12 AM
The original post had no questions about whether or not they should go on T. They asked about the changes T would do to them if they took it. God help them, they posted what they wanted from T and what they didnt and apparently that was a HUGE mistake.
For those of you who keep trying to nanny the OP, you are thread derailing. For those of us who would have also benefited from the answers about T and its effects...well this thread is such a waste now for the most part now thanks to you. Its filled with petty bickering and people who are just straight up ignoring the point of the thread. Thanks. Thanks a lot.
Next time I post my own questions on this site I'll be sure to include no personal info about myself at all, so that self appointed nannys, gatekeepers, and self anointed "experts" dont waste my time with their opinions about whether or not I should make changes to my own body.
Most people weren't trying to "gatekeep" or say what the OP should or should not do. One or two people did start doing that, and as you'll notice, the majority corrected them and said that their views weren't positive and were going down the "gatekeeping" route. Unfortunately people got caught up in arguing over whether informed consent was a good thing or not, rather than answering the OP's question, but it was the discussion of that which led people onto that anyway.
The majority never explicitly said that the OP, or other non-binary people, shouldn't use any form of HRT, they were just cautioning them that it's not possible to "pick and choose" what effects they get, and that there's a possibility that it would increase their dysphoria. I agree that some people came across too strongly -- I said this in one of my former posts -- but I think a lot of people were just trying to warn the OP that things could permanently change that they didn't want to, and that there's no way to tell what order changes will occur, or the time scale.
Quote from: Cain on November 12, 2012, 01:41:44 PM
a) How long did it take for your bits to start to grow, and do you know if it's permanent even after stopping T? This is the change I'm definitely the most interested in.
This was one of the first things I noticed, for me it started in the first week, it didn't grow to spectacular size though and after that it had a few more growth spurts. I'm having one now and I'm over 2 years on T.
Quoteb) How long did it take for facial hair to start to really come in? I wouldn't mind my body being slightly hairier, but I don't want to grow a mustache or beard. I'd be okay with having to occasionally shave though.
I'm still waiting, I have no side burns some hair on and under my chin and a dirt/puberty 'stache.
Quotec) When did your voice start to drop? And one that might be harder to answer: if I were to stop taking T as my voice began to drop, would it stay in the crack-y, partially-dropped phase forever? Could I possibly train it to stay in my current range, similarly to MtF voice training? Based on the men in my family it shouldn't drop too far.
My voice noticeably dropped in my fourth month on T, but I started losing my upper register and get a bit of a hoarse sound after 2 weeks. I don't know if your voice would stay crack-y if you stopped in between.
I also remember someone saying gel is slower, it may be for some but it really isn't in my case. I was on injections first but my changes really speeded up when I started using gel at the start of this year, so really your mileage may vary on that one. Actually I think that goes for all the changes, it really depend on genetics.