Well I've just cut short a night out with my best friend and a guy she is friends (not her b-friend and never will be) with, after an argument about the use of the word "->-bleeped-<-".
Basically, he was using the word to describe a bar in Manchester... it is a transsexual bar... or as some of the girls call it "->-bleeped-<-" bar. He called it a ->-bleeped-<- bar and my immediate response is don't call it that. I explained that it is extremely derogative and I found it offensive (he knows everything, including my name change and full time starts in 1 day!). His immediate response was why, I explained that is was used by other people as a term of degrading people like me. His response, "but they ( trans-girls) call it that", I said "I don't care, you wouldn't call a bar frequented by black people a N-word bar would you?" His response "it's not the same"!!! While getting aggressive.
At this point my supposed best friend weighs in and supports him, and says that that the girls do call it that. Despite the thousand times I've talked about the word's use and my hatred of it. I couldn't stand this and left, and I don't think I can respect her again. Let alone be in the same room as him. Am I overreacting and just been overly sensitive when I'm at a critical point... my real life is now less then 24hrs away and I am nervous.
IMHO, you are not over reacting by leaving. I certainly would not have stayed for that. However, if your friend apologises, I would give her another chance. I would not call her first. Let her make the first move.
I'd say you were overreacting. Your friend knows everything about your ->-bleeped-<- and didn't abandon you. Honestly, it doesn't matter what they call the bar; it's not like they're hating on trans individuals. They didn't see it as such a big deal and it's not your job to tell people how to talk when they're only using innocuous phrases. Sometimes, slang can be stupid and sound wrong to some people. Nothing worth fretting over. Also, "->-bleeped-<- bar" is not the same as "n***** bar;" not by a long shot. If you find it offensive, let it be known, but don't be surprised when people don't respond in the way you want. (Maybe if you're nice about it, they'll dial it down a bit.)
I think that since she did explain that she was offended by that term her friend should have stopped using it.
I understand that; I'm just saying that, unfortunately, you can't censor the world. If you try to do so when people aren't using phrases in a derogatory way, people will just get mad at you. Sorry, but most people aren't politically correct all of the time. I'd simply suggest to stop looking for problems when there aren't any because no one is completely politically correct except for politicians, and we all know what they sound like to people. --> "Blah, blah, blah, bullspit."
I do agree that you can't sensor people, let alone everyone. And, at least in my opinion, need to develop thick skin as people will most likely not change. If it is someone I don't know, I usually let stuff like that slide. If they are an acquittance, I may correct them once then forget about it. However, if it a friend, especially my best friend, I would hope they would have enough respect for me to listen when I say it offends me and then correct their action.
The biggest, and most famous, drag show (though it's only a little bit of that, it's much closer to performance art) in San Fran is called ->-bleeped-<-shack and has been running off and on since 1996. It's shows sell out, they are now doing shows in other cities (world wide empire coming soon), and it's even been cited as one of the top ten reasons to move to San Francisco. Over the years Lady Gaga, Gwen Stefani, Mary Wilson of the Supremes have gone on the stage there, and I was there one insanely crazy night when Charo herself judged the Charo contest and then played for everyone (she studied for 7 years with Andres Segovia). That led to her being named Grand Marshall for the SF Pride Parade which featured a float of her look-alikes. For several years Ana Matronic of the Scissor Sisters performed there as a FauxGirl.
And no one here seems to mind. Perhaps you should get over it.
On the other hand, one of their most famous performers - ran a jam-packed film series named Midnight Mass that was truly crazy - is named Peaches Christ. So perhaps it's not for everyone. Though Peaches is pretty highly thought of also, the major art museum here, the De Young, had a "Decade of Peaches Christ Retrospective" called Cattychism featuring artistic contributions inspired by Peaches. The event included ten years of costume design by long-time collaborator Tria Connell and ten years of graphic design by artist Chris Hatfield.
http://www.->-bleeped-<-shack.com/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=categories&Itemid=103 (//http:///index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=categories&Itemid=103)
I personally don't see a problem with calling a ->-bleeped-<- bar a ->-bleeped-<- bar. I bet the people who own it would tell you that's what it is.
Things like this are one of those "life is too short" things. Several times in my life I have been called a "cracker" and it was being used in a very derogatory way. I had to just laugh. They assumed it would piss me off and if I let it, they would win. If someone called me a ->-bleeped-<-, I would just think "what a moron" and probably laugh at that too. Now if a friends called me a ->-bleeped-<- and I asked them not to but they continued, that would be very different. I'm sure someone could be the same way about a "Gay Bar" and them not liking that word?
Thanks, I probably did over react to the way he used it. But it has still left me upset that she would side with him, her reason because he "is quick to anger and doesn't know my views". So she made my opinion and feelings secondary to the fact he gets angry when someone tells him he's wrong.
Quote from: RachelH on November 14, 2012, 03:58:39 AM
Thanks, I probably did over react to the way he used it. But it has still left me upset that she would side with him, her reason because he "is quick to anger and doesn't know my views". So she made my opinion and feelings secondary to the fact he gets angry when someone tells him he's wrong.
Friends can be hard to come by. Send her a text saying sorry you blew up over it, you are just feeling a bit emotional at the moment. GGs are used to that sort of thing because they have been dealing with intense emotions all their lives.
As to the use of the word "->-bleeped-<-" - you have made your point about how you feel about it and made it quite forceably as well, so leave it there. As far as other posters saying that you should not attempt to change what others think... well if that was the case then all sorts of derogatory terms for gays, jewish folk, irish, italians, africans, spaniards, etc etc etc would still be in daily use with no stigma attached.
You have made your stand, and reinforced your point. Leave it there and mend your fences.
Thanks bev2, I have apologized, but also made it clear I'm still hurt by what she said.
Quote from: bev2 on November 14, 2012, 04:12:49 AM
As to the use of the word "->-bleeped-<-" - you have made your point about how you feel about it and made it quite forceably as well, so leave it there. As far as other posters saying that you should not attempt to change what others think... well if that was the case then all sorts of derogatory terms for gays, jewish folk, irish, italians, africans, spaniards, etc etc etc would still be in daily use with no stigma attached.
Well, once again, as long as no one was using it in a derogatory way, it's just a word like any other: a "cutesy" way of saying transexual. Honestly, words are given way too much power. I've heard people call each other the n-word as a term of endearment. While that word was once an awful thing, people have changed it's connotation and realized that its just a word.
Yep, irritation and angst comes from our own insecurities, unless of course that confrontation is intended and hurtful by design. I can so entirely sympathize with you, your response was justified, however, there are those in the community who call them selves all sorts of names, from ->-bleeped-<-s to who knows what. There is no wrong or wright unless you specifically correct such word being derogatory as used in stereotype, they should have changed their demeanor and respect your sensitivity.
(Not so common these days) Courtesy says that if someone is offended and they are a friend, you try not to keep on doing it. For that one reason alone is cause to be upset because it WAS upsetting to YOU.
I'm sure someone could be the same way about a "Gay Bar" and them not liking that word?
But "male homosexual bar" sounds like crap, and no one is going to talk like that in real life. "Come Worthington, let us motivate uptown and peruse the male homosexual bars in the Castro".. Just like no one in SF calls The Lexington a 'female homosexual bar' - it's a dyke bar, hell, it's not just a dyke bar, it's perhaps one of THE Dyke Bars, its' the original home of Dykes on Bikes, so they seem OK with that. And if that offends you you don't have to call it that, the hip people call it 'The Lex' and you can go that route. But I don't see anyone get smoking hot about it being referred to with the 'D' word, and this is the capital of PC speech.
Same with the T word. Yes, to a degree it could be thought of as diminutive - the ie sound added to the end of a word has that meaning - like a 'hippie' was a 'baby hipster' (that's exactly how the word came about, and only because the writer of the first newspaper story on them had only the North Beach 'hipsters' (who were called Beatniks also) to compare them to). But...BUT...'diminutive' is not necessarily 'derogatory'. And you seem to be treating it that way. It's considered a more 'casual' and even 'friendly' way to refer to something, and most of the time it's not used in any hateful way, nor does it have any intentionally 'demeaning' quality to it.
And, the ->-bleeped-<- label, at least in a public setting, like calling it a ->-bleeped-<-Bar, serves the purpose that 'Transgender' was supposed to serve in the formal written sense (but somehow doesn't), which is casting the widest net, and creating the largest possible group of people there could possibly be in that mix, without having to go the PC (and guessing/labeling) route of assigning all of them, from the most passable post-op to the first time out CD, into the highly segmented sub-categories, and god, no one is right when it gets to that. So, in fact, some of this might well have been brought about by us all trying to create discrete and highly separate classifications of trans persons, so much so that it confused the casual onlooker who just took up ->-bleeped-<- to mean the entire bunch. Remember we have some mighty fine distinctions between words and conditions here, and to the casual onlooker they might not be all that easy to actually see - so, hey, just skip it entirely and find a common group.
& I can remember the term going back to PRE-INTERNET (yeah, I'm that old) days to refer to bars like The Black Rose, and I remember people at the old ETVC (the Educational ->-bleeped-<- Channel - the forerunner to TGSF, and one of the first TG groups in the country) using the term back in the 80s. ->-bleeped-<-Shack has been using it over a decade and a half, and when they started using the world '->-bleeped-<-' was cutting edge hip. There is a woman in San Jose much beloved as The ->-bleeped-<- Mechanic who's been working with people in our community for two decades now. So it's been around and in the community for a long time now.
Not an overreaction. Regardless of the many views on the offensiveness of the word and its various contexts, your friends should be respectful enough not to use a word around you that makes you uncomfortable. End of story.
I don't think its up to others to tell you what you should find offensive or not. I think if you actually value the friendship, then you will be able to determine what to do, but you also have to take into consideration just how much value the other person puts on that friendship if they are so determined to risk it by insisting on using a term you find objectionable.
Personally I don't like the word, at all, and anyone that calls me one will get told not to do so again or they can just stay the hell away from me, doesn't matter if they are family, friend or acquaintance. I also wouldn't hang around anyone who used the term to describe other people, the intent doesn't matter to me. Its not the sort of slang I care for, just as I wouldn't want to be around people who used other slang/derogatory type terms for other groups of people.
Well, my friends sometimes say "lol," which is a stupid slang word (?) and say "bless you" when I sneeze. I'm an atheist and I told them that I disagree with the notion of that phrase. Did they stop using it? No. Did I throw them to the curb? Also no. They're good people and I'm not going to throw away a perfectly good friendship to be the kind of person that gets annoyed over trivial habits and tries to change people into what I want them to be. They don't do it to offend me; they're just habits. They respect me and I have no intention of trying to force myself on other people.
Just my $0.02.
Quote from: DianaP on November 16, 2012, 03:52:01 PM
Well, my friends sometimes say "lol," which is a stupid slang word (?) and say "bless you" when I sneeze. I'm an atheist and I told them that I disagree with the notion of that phrase. Did they stop using it? No. Did I throw them to the curb? Also no. They're good people and I'm not going to throw away a perfectly good friendship to be the kind of person that gets annoyed over trivial habits and tries to change people into what I want them to be. They don't do it to offend me; they're just habits. They respect me and I have no intention of trying to force myself on other people.
Just my $0.02.
There is a HUUUUUUGE difference between "lol" or "bless you" and a term which was or still is commonly used as a form of derogatory slang to demean of certain group of people. "Lol" is not even slang its an acronym and "bless you" is actually is derived from the original belief that sneezing was a sign of the plague so in a way its a joke of medieval Europeans and anything medieval is bound to be coated in religion. Regardless of how a person views the word ->-bleeped-<-, it does have negative connotations and uses and if it makes someone uncomfortable then you shouldn't use it even if they are a friend. My roommate and friend my first year of college was black, he said "->-bleeped-<-" or some variation of the word all the time and even I said it on occasion jokingly but when he asked me to stop because it made him feel uncomfortable I did, even though my use was not meant in an offensive manner. Regardless of my feelings on the word, I was not going to risk hurting a friend just to prove a point or because I had a differing view on its use.
I WISH WE COULD JUST PUT A COUPLE OF LIGHT YEARS BETWEEN TRANSSEXUAL PEOPLE AND THE "FEMALE IMPERSONATORS" WHO HAVE POPULARIZED THE ->-bleeped-<- WORD.
I'm sure they do too. And many of those girls were/are transexuals too.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on November 16, 2012, 05:39:55 PM
There is a HUUUUUUGE difference between "lol" or "bless you" and a term which was or still is commonly used as a form of derogatory slang to demean of certain group of people. "Lol" is not even slang its an acronym and "bless you" is actually is derived from the original belief that sneezing was a sign of the plague so in a way its a joke of medieval Europeans and anything medieval is bound to be coated in religion. Regardless of how a person views the word ->-bleeped-<-, it does have negative connotations and uses and if it makes someone uncomfortable then you shouldn't use it even if they are a friend. My roommate and friend my first year of college was black, he said "->-bleeped-<-" or some variation of the word all the time and even I said it on occasion jokingly but when he asked me to stop because it made him feel uncomfortable I did, even though my use was not meant in an offensive manner. Regardless of my feelings on the word, I was not going to risk hurting a friend just to prove a point or because I had a differing view on its use.
I'm aware that there is a difference, but I, as an atheist, don't always feel comfortable when people try to put religion in my face, nor do I appreciate the use of ridiculous modern slang. I'm also not saying that you should try to use any word out of spite. I'm simply saying that words are simply means of communication. The context is what matters more. For example, you may call someone an "obnoxious twit" or a "stupid a**hole." It pretty much means the same thing. In either context, someone is being insulted. It's just that the words are different.
My friends and I agree that it's not right to censor each other when no one is blatantly being insulted. I don't know if it's our pragmatic worldview or something else, but we feel that people shouldn't be so sensitive to words so much as they should be towards direct insults. We may not say things in ways that everyone likes and we may be able to use other words, but we don't let things as trivial as semantics ruin everything. We respect each other and acknowledge that no one is trying to insult anyone, only make a point. At the end of the day, I know that my friends really care about me and that's all that matters.
Of course, this is just me stating my opinion and you're all free to disagree.
Quote from: DianaP on November 16, 2012, 09:25:40 PM
I'm aware that there is a difference, but I, as an atheist, don't always feel comfortable when people try to put religion in my face, nor do I appreciate the use of ridiculous modern slang. I'm also not saying that you should try to use any word out of spite. I'm simply saying that words are simply means of communication. The context is what matters more. For example, you may call someone an "obnoxious twit" or a "stupid a**hole." It pretty much means the same thing. In either context, someone is being insulted. It's just that the words are different.
My friends and I agree that it's not right to censor each other when no one is blatantly being insulted. I don't know if it's our pragmatic worldview or something else, but we feel that people shouldn't be so sensitive to words so much as they should be towards direct insults. We may not say things in ways that everyone likes and we may be able to use other words, but we don't let things as trivial as semantics ruin everything. We respect each other and acknowledge that no one is trying to insult anyone, only make a point. At the end of the day, I know that my friends really care about me and that's all that matters.
Of course, this is just me stating my opinion and you're all free to disagree.
She stated her distaste for the word and its use in any context. It does not matter if her friends don't have the same feelings as her on the word, it is not any ones place to dictate the feelings of others. However, they can dictate your own actions around that person and a respectful friend will refrain from using hurtful words even if they may disagree as to their harmfulness.