A lot has changed since I posted my question last week (Can a wife become more accepting?).
This has been going on for a while, but last week it became almost intolerable.
JoAnn and I aren't talking much anymore about important matters, or our jointly scheduled activities. And a lot of my questions are met with mean looks or terse responses. I can't even ask what she wants for dinner without a negative response at least half the time (I've been doing 90% of the meals for 12 years, and I worked full time until last year). So instead of asking questions about house or yard work I've started to tell her what's planned each day, and then wait for any kind of acknowledgement. But since there's so little communication around here she often will say something like "Why didn't you get the ..... done?" It's all so horribly frustrating, and I'm at a complete loss.
Sometimes it feels like she's holding something back, or she made some sort of decision where I'm not worthy of being included. And now I'm starting to worry that she's already gone to an attorney and filed papers. I don't want to bring this up if nothing has happened, because she could be feeling a lot more stress in general, and it may have nothing to do with me. It seems opening up a new subject like this unnecessarily will just make everything worse.
So now it's confusion time, each and every day. Please, any suggestion is better than nothing.
Kathy
My only suggestion is to prepare for the worst. Sorry :(
If you are worried she has already gone to an attorney to file for divorce, you should just ask her. Woman up!
And if I were you, I would already be talking to a lawyer, contact your local bar association for a low cost referral.
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on November 18, 2012, 12:37:49 PMIf you are worried she has already gone to an attorney to file for divorce, you should just ask her. Woman up!
And if I were you, I would already be talking to a lawyer, contact your local bar association for a low cost referral.
I asked. She isn't sure about a separation or divorce, and said she has no idea what will happen until after I come out to the family after Christmas. But she again said I might just be living in Michigan for a few months after a separation. Anyway, there's really no choice but to wait.
Thanks for the kick in the butt. And an attorney is just a phone call away.
Good Luck and Health to you through this time. you aren't alone! regardless of the outcome you will get.
Quote from: kathy b on November 18, 2012, 03:37:30 PM
I asked. She isn't sure about a separation or divorce, and said she has no idea what will happen until after I come out to the family after Christmas. But she again said I might just be living in Michigan for a few months after a separation. Anyway, there's really no choice but to wait.
Thanks for the kick in the butt. And an attorney is just a phone call away.
Isn't there a better time or better way to come out than at Christmas? This does not sound like a good idea.
I agree. Think about it. Everyone, including the little kids, around the Christmas tree and your present is a big "I'm transgender!"
As for your wife, she may be disappointed that her husband will be her wife. I would just say that you should talk to her and not take no for an answer. Tell her, "We need to talk" and leave the rest to improvisation.
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on November 18, 2012, 09:42:35 PM
Isn't there a better time or better way to come out than at Christmas? This does not sound like a good idea.
It won't be Christmas week. Only have a few days to get my wife and sons together, and JoAnn told me she has a lot to say and needs to be there. The rest of the family will get an email the same day. I'm figuring on New Years day now.
Quote from: DianaP on November 18, 2012, 09:58:13 PM
I agree. Think about it. Everyone, including the little kids, around the Christmas tree and your present is a big "I'm transgender!"
The original plan was early November, then JoAnn told me to wait until after Christmas, and sometime around New Year. On New Years they all have the day off work.
Holidays really aren't a good time to break that kind of news....I know its convenient and easy to get everyone gathered but....ya...just not good.
There are a whole series of emotions that one encounters during a transition, especially when one first breaks the news to the "better half."
It's a lot like being told your spouse has just died. There's disbelief, anger, shame, blame, and several others I can't remember. (Look up "grieving process" for a better description)
This "cold shoulder" you've been getting is not necessarily a sign of evil intent, it could just be that she's clammed up in order to process the situation.
While I don't know your family's situation or ages, if your sons are adults and not living with you, they don't need to know this soon. When/if you separate, after you establish your new place, that would be a better time to let them know (imho). A separation may give both of you some time to consider your options without the emotion(s) of living together getting in the way.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on November 18, 2012, 11:00:31 PM
This "cold shoulder" you've been getting is not necessarily a sign of evil intent, it could just be that she's clammed up in order to process the situation. ....
.... if your sons are adults and not living with you, they don't need to know this soon ........
I was through this 20 years ago when I fisrt told JoAnn a little bit about me. It was years before we were comfortable again. Everything that's happening now is far worse after telling her so much about my life, and of course why I have to transition.
One son lives here and after being laid off he only works when his employers need his kind of skilled help. We see the other son at least three times a month, and then all my brothers and sisters about two times a month. So if I don't come out I don't transition.
JoAnn understands this and doesn't want to stand in my way, but also doesn't want to be married to a woman. I know it's going to end between us some day, I just hoped we could work it out somehow. Even if only for a year or two.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on November 18, 2012, 10:34:02 PM
Holidays really aren't a good time to break that kind of news....I know its convenient and easy to get everyone gathered but....ya...just not good.
I know, but I keep saying "When?". Something is always going on in this family.
Allof this is leading to more anxiety and depression. So I try to stay busy with yard and house work.
Kathy
I hope this doesn't sound cruel or unfeeling.
Your posts spell the end of a relationship that appears to have no way to survive. Your desire to keep things going appear to be immaterial and are dismissed. She will leave you and the best you can hope is for a 50/50 split.
This is easy for me to say; I would start to initiate proceedings. why bother dragging family through all of this over Christmas, it will be used to demonstrate (PLEASE THIS IS ADVICE NOT A REFLECTION ON YOU) what a 'fairy and unmanly freak' that she married. I expect that is why she is waiting for the holiday season. She will garner all the sympathy from showing of 'her girly husband'.
If people laugh at you and be totally unsympathetic,fine by her. She is building a nest for herself where she will be comfortable and comforted. It is a female thing, we create safe places where we live and are protected. She is more use to it than you are.
You mention I think(?) that there is no love anymore. I'm not surprised at all. But the lack of love leaves a vacuum. And a vacuum needs to be filled. In this case probably by hate.
She is treating you as that she is the dominant female in the relationship and you are just a maid, I bet she would love to present you in a maid costume to her family, it would rub it in (hate). She clearly states that she is not interested in a lesbian relationship. That is a very bad sign IMO. It means she doesn't care for you at all. From your comment re house work, cooking etc in this post, she has no respect whatsoever for you.
I have a very nasty feeling is that her hate and loathing flame-throwers are primed; she is waiting for a time to use them that will make you suffer as much as possible.
I personally would get out now.
This is just my opinion
And I'm very very sorry to hear all of this.
None of this was written to insult you in any way at all. Just a reflection.
Cindy
Quote from: kathy b on November 18, 2012, 10:28:15 PM
It won't be Christmas week. Only have a few days to get my wife and sons together, and JoAnn told me she has a lot to say and needs to be there.
That does not sound good, especially the
"... has a lot to say ... " bit.
Quote from: kathy b on November 18, 2012, 10:28:15 PM
The original plan was early November, then JoAnn told me to wait until after Christmas, and sometime around New Year. On New Years they all have the day off work.
If I was you, I think I would move out today. It worries me that she is building up to something and whatever it is it will not portray you in a good light.
I have some questions:
Are you happy with your relationship as it is?
Can you see a way to improve?
Is it your coming out or hers?
She does not sound like she is on your side anymore hun. I think a lot of our spider senses are tingling here, she is definitely building up to something. You should make your own coming out plans that meet your needs, not hers. This should be of your own choosing as it is too important to let someone else ruin it with their anger. This is about you. Whatever you do, I don't think you should give her the chance to speak, what can she add of value?
You have to be so strong in this. Also I suggest you don't make this a holiday thing. If it goes badly it will always be associated with the holidays. Remember that there is never a good time to come out, but there are better times.
I suggest telling her that you are going to come out in your own time, and watch her reaction.
All the best hun!
Seriously not a good situation to be in, hugs.
xxx
Although it sucks, are you sure you might not be dragging this relationship out (wanting it to last 1 or 2 more years, to paraphrase) only to get you through your own hard times coming up dealing with transition? If so, that's kind of selfish too... normal, but selfish. Maybe you'll have to face transition alone, and let your wife gather the pieces of her life and move on as well? She'll probably act like she hates you, but if there was real love to begin with, she won't; she'll be in a really unique place of mourning a death of you (of sorts) all the while knowing you're still out there, with what she thinks is a "choice" you've made to do this to her. Long story short, brace for impact, and let her go.
If there is a chance she might use this as an opportunity to take advantage of the family's expected surprise, you could do a pre-emptive strike by telling your kids that you and your wife will have an announcement regarding a sensitive personal issue, and that you hope they will respond with compassion and understanding, because it is difficult for both you and the mrs.
Don't tell them what "it" is, just be a bit vague.
I had planned on replying to each of you. But as I read someplace long ago, "Sometimes the wisdom of others is depleted by discussion, when it only requires acceptance."
But Cindy, even to that end I have to reply to you.
Quote from: Cindy James on November 19, 2012, 02:52:29 AM
I hope this doesn't sound cruel or unfeeling. ...................
..........None of this was written to insult you in any way at all. Just a reflection.
I've never felt that anything said to me on Susan's is cruel, unfeeling, or insulting. I read everything with the understanding that it's either an opinion that'smeant to help as honest advice, or its a statement that points out my faults. There should be no fear of hurting my feelings.
Love to all of you.
Kathy
Hi Kathy.
It sounds like you are having a hard time at home lately. If I may, I'd like to share an alternative perspective from what most are offering here. If I was in your shoes right now, my inclination would be to focus my attention on all the things I love best about my wife. Seriously. For real. If today, right now, I found myself in the position that you seem to be in, I would begin to make lists of all of my wife's positive aspects. I would make lists of the positive aspects of us together. And I would write these lists everyday. I wouldn't necessarily share them. (Or maybe I would, if it felt right.) I wouldn't write these lists for any ulterior motive other than to make myself feel better. I would do whatever I could to feel better about my wife. I'd do what I could to feel better about my family. I'd do what I could to feel better period.
This might sound a little crazy, but think about it. What do you have to lose by concocting a million little ways to make yourself feel better about everything and everyone in your life?
I am a firm believer in the law of attraction. I feel that for me, if I want to connect with the loving, understanding aspects of the people in my life, then it's important for me to focus in a deliberate way on all the ways that those qualities manifest in that person... by making positive, good feeling lists.
I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is going to save your marriage. In fact, if those positive qualities in your wife are so suppressed as to be nonexistent at this point, then focusing on them may actually hasten the end of the marriage. But if all those qualities that you've loved so well about her over the years are just below the surface and/or still very evident, then you're more likely to see much more of those qualities manifesting in your day to day interactions if you take the time to look for them and acknowledge them, even just to yourself.
The main reason to take the time to acknowledge your wife's positive aspects in writing though, is just to feel better. And if you can make yourself feel a little better with a simple list, well, that's worth a lot. What's better than feeling better? And seriously, what do you have to lose by showing yourself that you can make yourself feel better with a simple list of positive aspects. What might you gain? Try it once a day for a week and see if it helps.
Big hugs to you!
Miharu
why bother dragging family through all of this over Christmas.
Isn't there a better time or better way to come out than at Christmas?
Because it's so common it's almost traditional. I think most Gay Men's Choral groups do the "Coming Out At Christmas" song at their holiday concert.
Song: Coming Out at Christmas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-TCj6IHUtU#)
Considering what I have read, there doesn't ever seem to be an optimal time. You know what? Just come out whenever they're together. If they don't like it, that's their problem and won't change regardless of when you tell them.
I think Cindy is spot on. She is usually wise with a very good head on her shoulders, and her intuition is correct here IMO.
I can see things getting ugly quick. She's waiting for you to come out to them so she can either go on the defensive or so she can try to get on their side to gang up on you... hoping to change your mind.
If you want to put yourself through that just to stay with her for a year or two longer, knowing that things will be awkward and difficult until the end, that's your choice. Personally I'd advise not putting yourself through the headache. Your journey ahead is going to be a difficult one as it is, don't make it more difficult than it needs to be.
I'm sorry it's come to this. I know it's hard letting go of loved ones. I've had to let go of family too. But at some point you have to decide whether to get on with your life, or bottle up your feelings again for the rest of your life.
Not to mention, do you really want to feel like a man the rest of your life? She will probably do whatever she can to make you feel that way. "Take out the trash. Fix the sink. I'll do the dishes and the laundry, I've been doing them my whole life. The kids aren't wearing THAT!" Not to mention the awkward looks she'll probably give her friends when you try to interject into their girl talk .... this sounds like the life ahead for you hon.
Like I said before, it's time to decide what's more important to you: being with your wife, or being yourself.
Quote from: DianaP on November 19, 2012, 03:20:42 PM
Considering what I have read, there doesn't ever seem to be an optimal time. You know what? Screw them and just come out whenever they're together. If they don't like it, that's their problem and won't change regardless of when you tell them.
I am sorry but I simply have to disagree with that. People will react better to a coming-out if you treat them with respect. If you simply ram it down their throat on a take-it-or-leave-it basis then they will react badly.
Everyone I know who has had a really good coming-out experience has done it on a one-to-one basis or via a letter, where people are not embarrassed or dumbfounded as a group in front of others.
How did you come out to others? Did the group method work for you? Is that why you recommend it?
I just said to come out when they're together, not to be crazy mean about it. ??? The people I came out to are never together in the same room, so I had to tell them individually, except for 3 of them who happened to be together. I didn't care that we were in a pizzeria birthday party. I didn't yell or talk aggressively. I didn't disregard their feelings. I just completely disregarded the time and place and came out when it was convenient for ME because while you may disagree, your coming out is technically all about you.
To answer your question, they didn't care. They still love me. :)
Quote from: DianaP on November 19, 2012, 03:42:59 PM
I just said to come out when they're together, not to be crazy mean about it. ???
You said
"You know what? Screw them and just come out whenever they're together" That does not sound terribly respectful.
Quote from: DianaP on November 19, 2012, 03:42:59 PMI just completely disregarded the time and place and came out when it was convenient for ME because while you may disagree, your coming out is technically all about you.
This is where we disagree. I would say that my transition is not about me, it is about me and the people I love as well. Their feelings, thoughts and opinions matter to me and my transition affects them too. Transition cannot take place in isolation.
Transition involves everyone, but coming out is all about you telling some people about you. It is all about the fact that you are trans. Coming out is just something about your identity and involves no one but you (unless you have an external identity, technically, but let's assume we're not dealing with that). Thus, your coming out, not transition entirely, is all about you. Other people's opinions matter to me, too, but aren't going to stop me from transitioning and they will have to find out eventually, so if there is no other optimal time, just tell them all when they're together.
I'm overwhelmed and I think that migraine is just around the corner. So here goes some real brief answers.
Miharu: I do my diary every day, and the list can go in it also.
Tekla: Christmas is definately not going to be ruined by me. And I like the video. :D Thnx
Diana: It has to be New Years now anyway since both my sons and wife will all be around.
Alaina: New Years will be kind of interesting, and I'm ready. My marriage is over and I guess I know it. There's no reason to drag this out any more, and I have a place to live. Just need to get some money ready.
Bev: I'll send a message.
I have no problem talking to my sons with JoAnn there. We're still going to be a family up to that point, and the boys probably need to hear what she has to say. Good or bad. Anyway, the boys will make up their own minds about me no matter what JoAnn or I say.
Oh yes, please girls don't argue about it. As long as I got the meaning it's not worth the effort to keep that up.
Peace, Kathy
As Dr. Phil sez: Someday is not a day of the week. Or better yet, as Yoda sez: Do or not do - there is no try. If it's important to you to tell people, you should tell them. There is no day that's better or worse.
Quote from: kathy b on November 19, 2012, 05:01:54 PM
I have no problem talking to my sons with JoAnn there. We're still going to be a family up to that point, and the boys probably need to hear what she has to say. Good or bad. Anyway, the boys will make up their own minds about me no matter what JoAnn or I say.
Yes they will.
Kids hate it when their parents try to convince them that the other parent is awful. My dad tried to do that with me to my mom and I have always resented him for it.