Do you feel that a person should be able to list something other than male or female on a birth certificate and drivers license and social security card? Is there actually any hope that someday we all wont be put in boxes and can just specify something else like I (for Intersex) or QQ for GenderFluid or even something else besides the way people are put into boxes now?
I think governments and such should stop asking us what's between our legs.
Unless they want it for some reason, my gender or sex is none of their business.
Personally I don't think it is wise. I don't trust the government to not use such information for insidious purposes.
I am female and let it stay that way.
I don't see why we need to have gender on ID anyway, but I'm not too knowledgeable about why it's on there in the first place, so...
Oh I love "once upon a time" on abc btw :)
The alternative to the whole 'gender' deal (with eyes, hair, weight, height help the LEO figure out if that's you, is - Biometric. Would you really like that better? DNA? Fingerprints? DNA Fingerprints... I mean it's coming, not much we can do about it. So that pesky gender might go away - on the other hand, lots of people are pretty attached to it. And such things - like a DL - have uses beyond the government.
Not if its used as a method of denying women with transsexual history the same rights as any other. I can't see a problem if people want to claim a non-gendered identity though. I'm my country we can have X on our passports.
Ms. OBrien and Isabelle: I'm pretty sure "something other than male or female" would be for people who are something other than male or female.
Anyway, I think if the government insists on documenting gender, they should at least try to get it right. As it is, they're doing a very good job of convincing me that "official" and "real" are not the same thing, and I doubt that's what they want. An F or an M on paperwork doesn't mean much now, because you can't tell if it's really true or if it's only there because the truth isn't an option.
well i personally think its wrong to be assigned a sex at birth, instead i think the child should be telling you what they are and how they feel and you should then assign a gender, regardless of sex characteristics, also you have to remember some intersex people identify as both genders or a separate gender, i just think that a lot of heartache could be spared if doctors were able to just let humans tell there own story.
I don't think we need a 3rd one, I think we ALL we need to stop caring. Why do I need to have a label? I should be able to present as I please, not according to what's on my drivers license. I have never been asked to demonstrate proof at any time - why do I need an M or F? Just an opinion... Holly
I would rather see them get rid of the mortgage tax writeoff and start covering trans surgeries.
But, no, I don't think it's a good idea to put down a third gender; I would rather see both existing gender markers just go away (like that's going to happen anytime soon). I think that the third gender category would be abused and misunderstood. But I'm not one of the folks who would be using such a category for self-classification.
My mtf friend in Chicago went to a hospital and on her Anesthesia Evaluation Information states her sex as 'Transgender' I think some changes have begun. Although I am legally female and prefer all the paper to be female, I don't think it is a bad thing.
Quote from: Arch on November 25, 2012, 07:26:25 PM
But, no, I don't think it's a good idea to put down a third gender; I would rather see both existing gender markers just go away (like that's going to happen anytime soon). I think that the third gender category would be abused and misunderstood. But I'm not one of the folks who would be using such a category for self-classification.
I think this would be the best solution; having the gender markers disappear altogether, but (like Arch wrote) it most likely won't be seen in this life-time or the next. I also agree that if we did have a 3rd gender category, it would add more confusion than clarification. Not that it's not a good thought, but it wouldn't be used correctly in context and, I think, would be a step back than forward.
You might be able to get rid of gender markers on official documents , but you would still be referring to people as him or her, unless that person says its ok to call them both.
I think there should be the choice of other with a flip down box with several other choices including other. Then a box to write your sexual identity in. Much as they could do with ethnic identity.
To eliminate discrimination on account of sexual identity they should just leave it off legal documents and government documents including your driver's licence. Your picture on your driver's licence could have more of a body shot which would convey the necessary information for identification.
The funny thing, it doesn't bother me which pronouns someone uses for me. He, she - I don't care. But someone else might. There will never be a solution that works for everybody.
Quote from: Edge on November 25, 2012, 02:58:43 PM
I don't see why we need to have gender on ID anyway, but I'm not too knowledgeable about why it's on there in the first place, so...
To fight terrorism, obvs.
Anyway you're right and it's not really useful or necessary, but if we HAVE to have one I definitely think it should at least be "Male, Female, None/Other." Nonbinary people exist and are real.
I wonder if the whole census and record keeping track of how many women and men there are has to do more with taxes, reproduction, or just simple curiosity?
Can you imagine the reaction in the press if this were even proposed? We'd have the usual hysterical wails of "OMGZ paedo gay perverts want to hide their gender so they can invade the ladies' toilets and molest women!!!1!!!"
Personally, I don't think my gender or sex is anyone's business. If it needs to be on a medical form for a medical reason (i.e. to supply sex-specific treatments such as smears or prostate exams), then so be it. But nobody else has a good reason to know.
Some countries have made progress towards recognizing a third gender, such as Pakistan. I've heard similar things for other countries. So it is happening and I think anything that offers more choice is a good thing.
I somewhat agree with the sentiment that the government should just mind it's own business but there are legal reasons for it that can not be ignored. Also I believe recognition is half the fight for social acceptance, as long as there is sociopolitical stigma around it then it will reinforce public sentiment.
In some places ID cards don't have a gender marker though. I understand there being SOME record of gender but there doesn't need to be a public record of gender that employers, people who sell alchohol, etc need to see.
But what if a person wants to be recognized as a two-spirit or a 3rd gender, the fact of the matter is we are still required to put and M or an F in most countries, regardless of all the hassle you get or concerns you would have for being officially recognized, i know some people want this.
Yes, with some reservations. I do realize that it can be a double edge sword—at least if we let it be.
I personally loath having to choose male or female on any forms. As some who is doing HRT and still (has to) presents as pretty much a male-ish androgyne, I deeply feel the only valid selection for me, currently anyway, is a neutral one.
I think that those who have had SRS (which I don't ever plan to do) should classify as female, end of story.
Yes, of course I think people should be able to put whatever sex/gender represents them on their ID. I also think that people should have the option not to have their sex/gender included on their ID. I like that some places allow people to tick transgender or other now in addition to male/female, and I also like that it's been proposed here in Canada to allow people to just put an X where it mentions sex/gender on ID at the federal level.
well i know that in San Francisco you can obtain a city ID that does not show a sex marker on it at all, unlike the California ID
I would love if they did this, as long as it wasn't abused too much by either end.
To me it seems like the real issue is that most people's perceptions of gender and sex are incorrect. Sex does not equal gender. Sex is the status of a person's genitalia. Gender is something that's on the inside and can't be seen unless the person wishes to express it.
I can understand the need to specify sex on medical documents, because the two sexes can require differing medical care because of anatomical differences.
Perhaps there should be a box for sex and a separate box for gender, with options included for intersex and non-binary individuals?
Though I can understand how ANY specification of sex/gender could be used for nefarious purposes on documents by those 'in charge.' To be technical, any personal information can be use for nefarious purposes.
And that's my 0.02 on this issue. :)
Quote from: Sage on November 28, 2012, 01:44:38 PM
To me it seems like the real issue is that most people's perceptions of gender and sex are incorrect. Sex does not equal gender. Sex is the status of a person's genitalia.
Genitals do not equal sex and sex, when you try to break it down into little boxes, is really difficult to pinpoint. It's really not as simple as some elementary school sex-ed course. This has been an issue in sport for ages now when they try to determine the "boundaries" of female competition in particular. Now they perform a sex test on anyone who they think performs beyond what they consider within the boundaries of what the female body is capable of. So they test chromosomes, they test hormones, they test everything and its mother to try to distinguish who is and isn't female...and the more they do that, the more concessions they end up having to make after they realise that sex is really not this clear cut thing that the patriarchal medical tradition and social convention wants it to be.
Quote from: Sage on November 28, 2012, 01:44:38 PMI can understand the need to specify sex on medical documents, because the two sexes can require differing medical care because of anatomical differences.
Not according to many medical practitioners in Canada. I've been to a few clinics where they allow you to check a box other than male or female and it has never posed a problem afaik. The Ontario government allows gender marker changes on provincial ID (and therefore provincial healthcare cards) without genital reassignment surgery or HRT. That isn't proving to be a problem for trans-positive doctors who realise that they cannot make assumptions based on the state of a person's genitals, hormones or sex marker.
Yes. Yes they should. My personal preference is "Male", "Female" and "N/A", which is what I write on the form anyway.
QuoteI wonder if the whole census and record keeping track of how many women and men there are has to do more with taxes, reproduction, or just simple curiosity?
It's about birthrate estimates, healthcare needs estimates etc. as far as I'm aware.
Quote from: Schu on November 25, 2012, 08:07:14 PM
The funny thing, it doesn't bother me which pronouns someone uses for me. He, she - I don't care. But someone else might. There will never be a solution that works for everybody.
I'm with Schu and sometimes pencil in "None of the above" or "Other" and even "Not sure yet!"
Quote from: Shantel on November 28, 2012, 05:43:13 PM
I'm with Schu and sometimes pencil in "None of the above" or "Other" and even "Not sure yet!"
Hmmm, yes, good; but the problem is that this only works with paper forms. Some much is electronic now days—and we have got to know this will only become more and more so with time.
You know our government ain't exactly running the table on being able to handle two genders - now you want to give them one, perhaps even more choices. And that doesn't end badly how? Humans rank and count crap. It's one of our most enduring metal problems. And now we have two - one dominant, one not. But you now want a couple more groups to rank higher and lower then the ones we now have. Yikes!
And yes, we have several words that have multiple meanings right off the bat, and moreover are in an area where highly distinct shades of meanings underlay them. You know what? The world is complex and life is so complicated. And even if you get get to this magical place where sex&gender don't matter in a wide number of ways to just about everyone else on the planet, even if you get everyone to agree on one -and one only - highly limited and very specific definition of 'sex' or 'gender', you're still not going to be there because individuals still will see the meanings of the words used, and hence the entire definition, differently.
So what then? What does an intersex person do? By having to choose male or female, you are still putting them in a box. I see what your saying and it is a problem currently because men do tend to be more dominant in society and are treated differently than women, but I think eventually society will need to accept and acknowledge different people exist. Keeping the 2 gender system will not help in the long run.
Washington State has been pondering this issue recently since same-sex couples can now marry, the powers at the state capitol are considering deleting the words "Husband" and "Wife" in preference for spouse #1 and spouse #2 on the marriage certificate to eliminate gender specifics entirely. No doubt this isn't for the sake of the marrying couple, but more for the sake of eliminating the confusion for authorities.
Quote from: Berserk on November 28, 2012, 03:13:57 PM
Not according to many medical practitioners in Canada. I've been to a few clinics where they allow you to check a box other than male or female and it has never posed a problem afaik. The Ontario government allows gender marker changes on provincial ID (and therefore provincial healthcare cards) without genital reassignment surgery or HRT.
I did not know that Canada did this. :) I suppose one learns something new every day.
Just watch out, if our government ever becomes a theocracy, then they'll know exactly who to hunt down and throw in internment camps.
Quote from: Sage on November 29, 2012, 12:57:16 PM
I did not know that Canada did this. :) I suppose one learns something new every day.
Yep, relatively recently the Ontario Human Rights Commission ruled that it was a human rights violation for the government to require trans people to alter their bodies (particularly through surgery) in any way in order to legally be able to change their sex marker on their provincial identification. It's getting pushed at the federal level as well. Clinics have been allowing the option to tick trans or other as an option for sex since before then, though, and doesn't/shouldn't affect the medical treatment received since diagnosis and treatment is a lot more complex than what's written in a file or intake sheet.