Belgian discovers his wife used to be a man after 19 yearsA Belgian is seeking to have his marriage annulled after discovering that his Indonesian wife of 19 years had been born a man.
By Bruno Waterfield, Brussels
1:47PM GMT 26 Nov 2012http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/9703166/Belgian-discovers-his-wife-used-to-be-a-man-after-19-years.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/9703166/Belgian-discovers-his-wife-used-to-be-a-man-after-19-years.html)
QuoteThe man, only named as Jan, married Monica, his family's former au pair in a previous marriage, in 1993 despite legal difficulties raised by the Belgian immigration authorities.
But it was only in recent weeks that he discovered that his wife had originally been a man and had undergone a sex change.
"I feel I've been assaulted," he told the Het Nieuwsblad newspaper.
"I brought her to Belgium. That was not easy. The Belgian courts had serious doubts about the authenticity of her birth and her identity papers, but eventually they accepted it anyway. I thought she was an attractive woman, all woman. She had no male traits."
Jan, 64, said that he and his wife had decided not to have children because he had two by his previous marriage and she fooled him by pretending to menstruate, using sanitary towels, "to conceal the truth".
"Even during sex, I never noticed anything," he said.
For many years the couple lived a normal family life and Monica, 48, was like a "big sister" to his children until their marriage started to come under strain when she got a new full-time job.
"Monica began to change very much," he said.
"My oldest son saw her sometimes at a nightclub. She began to wear very flashy clothes, those ultra-short skirts or tiny tops, so her abdomen was completely exposed."
Finally rumours began to surface and after Jan found "amorous messages" from other men on her computer, he confronted her in a violent row that led to the police being called.
"A friend told me that he had heard that Monica was actually a sex-changed man. I could not believe it. My son heard similar rumours," he said.
"I pushed her against the wall and said: Now I know the truth. Are you a man? She then announced that she was born as a boy and that she had been operated on. She was now a woman, and so she did not need to tell me about her past as a man. My world collapsed. That evening came to blows. The police came."
Jan, who is undergoing psychiatric treatment following the discovery, has started legal proceedings to have the marriage annulled but the Belgian courts have so far refused to allow him to turn her out of the familiy home.
"That person has deliberately deceived him for years, even scammed. Presumably she has also forged documents used here to get a residence permit. The children, who for years have lived with her, are devastated," said his Liliane Verjauw, his lawyer.
*sigh*
'*sigh*'?
<Jan, who is undergoing psychiatric treatment following the discovery>!!
What an asswipe!
The guy spent 19 years married to a transgendered person...and was happy. But once he found out, that's when he rants.
It's like when people enjoy Rocky Mountain Oysters...until they find out what those are. But, if they liked them before, what has changed? Nothing but their own small-minded perception!
That, and his local culture's perception of him.
Personally, I'm wondering about his wife's habit of going out dancing, and how the rumor got started.
*sigh*
If we tell, we get dumped. If we don't, we are scorned.
:(
Well, yeah, Beth. In short, he's an asswipe. (I just learned that slang word today, and it's so funny :P )
PS--> I don't think all trans people get dumped. :)
Psh, I don't sympathize with her, what she attempted is very stupid and selfish. Why is your marriage worth it if such a huge secret as this one can destroy it? She did decieve him, and it was wrong.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on November 26, 2012, 03:48:49 PM
She did decieve him, and it was wrong.
While she did deceive him, there was no reason for him to hit her. ???
I didn't see that part. >.< But I certainly don't sympathize with him either.
Nonetheless, just get a divorce. Don't beat her to the point where the cops must intervene.
Ok...I understand his frustration and how he'd have felt....But It did not need to come to blows. Just tell her you want a divorce and sort it out no need to bash the poor girl.
To be honest, the real reason his marriage came under strain was because she started to frequent bars and disappears for weekends, he said that himself, he is only using her trans history as an excuse, from his point of view its a good way out and gets him lots of simpathy.
Quote from: pretty pauline on November 27, 2012, 09:34:48 AM
To be honest, the real reason his marriage came under strain was because she started to frequent bars and disappears for weekends, he said that himself, he is only using her trans history as an excuse, from his point of view its a good way out and gets him lots of simpathy.
For any person such as him who doesn't have any knowledge or experience in trans issues, it
is a traumatic thing to find out. Even when one does have this experience, trust is very important in a marriage and they would understandably be very upset. Their marriage may have been falling apart for those reasons, but this simply crushes it.
'Now I know why she wasn't good at ironing': Husband dumps his wife after 19 years after finding out she was born a man
26 Nov 2012 20:46
The revelation emerged after almost two decades of marriage when his wife's cousin finally exposed the truth
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/belgian-husband-splits-from-wife-after-1458493 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/belgian-husband-splits-from-wife-after-1458493)
A husband has spoken of his shock after learning his wife of 19 years used to be a man.
The 64-year-old Belgian - named only as Jan - said he had no clue his bride had been born a boy.
[...]
"Over the years she said she was taking the pill, and even during sex I never noticed anything, though now I understand why she always used a lubricant, which is apparently normal among transsexuals.
"She was always a good mother to my children, and also a fantastic cook, though she wasn't that great at cleaning and ironing - and now I know why"
my guess is he knew all along but didn't want to believe it.
for one thing it seems he really enjoyed being in a relationship with her while she was completely dependant on him, then things start going to hell when she gets a job.
its honestly difficult to sympathize with either persons but beating the crap out of her is wrong and there's no excuse for beating a woman especially if that woman is or was your wife/mother/daughter/sister/friend.
Quote from: Zythyra on November 27, 2012, 01:01:44 PM
"though she wasn't that great at cleaning and ironing - and now I know why"
Oh, lawdy...
Quote from: Alexia6 on November 27, 2012, 01:12:16 PM
its honestly difficult to sympathize with either persons but beating the crap out of her is wrong and there's no excuse for beating a woman especially if that woman is or was your wife/mother/daughter/sister/friend.
Well, maybe there are some excuses. If your mom goes crazy and decides to take a hammer to your sister's head, you knock her out. :-\
However, I can sympathize slightly with the wife. She did lie; I'll give you all that much. However, in a society like ours, could you really blame a post-operative trans woman for hiding her status after working so hard to get others to see her as nothing but a woman, and not a trans woman? If anything, the fact that the marriage lasted so long (considering how short most of them are) shows that her trans status didn't matter. Just my $0.02.
Quote from: DianaP on November 27, 2012, 03:23:08 PM
could you really blame a post-operative trans woman for hiding her status after working so hard to get others to see her as nothing but a woman, and not a trans woman? If anything, the fact that the marriage lasted so long (considering how short most of them are) shows that her trans status didn't matter.
I could, what people like her do adds to our reputation, but that's not the point. No transperson or anyone else should feel as if they're justified in doing this.
I'm with you all the way Diana. But the question I have is why she chose an unreconstructed neanderthal to have a relationship with.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on November 27, 2012, 04:08:38 PM
I could, what people like her do adds to our reputation, but that's not the point. No transperson or anyone else should feel as if they're justified in doing this.
Alright, I can respect your opinion, but just try to consider her side of the story. After all, it technically is her business whether she wants to disclose to anyone or not. She knew the risks and got hit hard, but that doesn't change the fact that disclosure was ultimately her choice.
Quote from: Tesla on November 27, 2012, 04:09:24 PM
But the question I have is why she chose an unreconstructed neanderthal to have a relationship with.
It's not like she knew how he would react to her being trans, so there is no way that could've affect her decision. Perhaps he's an otherwise good person?
Quote from: DianaP on November 27, 2012, 04:44:09 PM
It's not like she knew how he would react to her being trans, so there is no way that could've affect her decision. Perhaps he's an otherwise good person?
Possibly it's the public humiliation (from his perspective) that he couldn't handle. He was 'made' to feel like a 'fool' for not knowing the truth, when everyone else knew. He was emasculated. He may have taken it better if a disclosure was made in private. I don't know.
Quote from: DianaP on November 27, 2012, 04:44:09 PM
Alright, I can respect your opinion, but just try to consider her side of the story. After all, it technically is her business whether she wants to disclose to anyone or not. She knew the risks and got hit hard, but that doesn't change the fact that disclosure was ultimately her choice.
As I yours. But I firmly believe that just because it's her business doesn't mean it's not any of his. Maybe it's like a victim of AIDS, although the situation is different it's also very similar. Generally, this would be their business and no one else's, but would you say the same if this person did not disclose to their partner before intimacy, or even, before the relationship was serious? The reason this person won't tell is simple, because they know afterwards the other person will reject them, it's simply not right to be in a relationship where you're forced to keep dangerous secrets else the other person won't stay with you.
Quote from: Tesla on November 27, 2012, 04:09:24 PM
But the question I have is why she chose an unreconstructed neanderthal to have a relationship with.
You want my stereotypical and somewhat judgemental answer? :P I know many Asian women such as my mother who seek out much older or geeky-looking white men out of ambition, either for a green-card and/or because she expects him to take care of her. That's not to say she didn't love him, maybe she did, but I suspect that's how she got interested. She was half his age and he brought her to Belgium, so it wouldn't surprise me. My mother is a moron who keeps rude and insulting friends because they do things for her, but that's another story.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on November 27, 2012, 05:54:58 PM
As I yours. But I firmly believe that just because it's her business doesn't mean it's not any of his. Maybe it's like a victim of AIDS, although the situation is different it's also very similar. Generally, this would be their business and no one else's, but would you say the same if this person did not disclose to their partner before intimacy, or even, before the relationship was serious? The reason this person won't tell is simple, because they know afterwards the other person will reject them, it's simply not right to be in a relationship where you're forced to keep dangerous secrets else the other person won't stay with you.
Well, unlike AIDS, you can't catch ->-bleeped-<-, and it doesn't lead to a slow and painful death to those that do catch it. ->-bleeped-<- stays with you and you being trans won't hurt anyone.
I get that it's bad to be in a relationship where someone can't accept you for who you are, but the point is that you never know. The nicest guy could have one flaw: a hatred of trans individuals, and it wouldn't come up until the issue is present. Some people aren't willing to take the chance of losing someone he/she loves over something so unfair.
Quote from: DianaP on November 27, 2012, 06:01:00 PM
The nicest guy could have one flaw: a hatred of trans individuals, and it wouldn't come up until the issue is present. Some people aren't willing to take the chance of losing someone he/she loves over something so unfair.
That one flaw is a very bad flaw. It's part of who this woman is, and this nice nice guy hates what she is. He's not worth being with, and the woman he's been dating should know better.
I understand; it's just that she didn't and couldn't know of his prejudices.
Tis why it's best to get it out of the way before too much time passes. It's no secret that a large percentage of guys would have a problem with it.
The relationship was built on dishonesty which is invariably a prescription for a train wreck.
WHY denying a man his basic right TO KNOW who he marries?? He has his very own sexual orientation!
The guy wound up in a psychiatric hospital after finding out.
It's cruel and totally SELFCENTERED.
Sexual orientation is not the same thing as transgendered.
I was talking to an adult male relative who is very accepting of me, uses proper pronouns, etc but when I asked him about this story, the first thing he said was, "I wonder if she'd take a hit the same as when she was a man!" while air-boxing.
He's not a Neanderthal, either...or a hater. All of us know how very intimate and personal ones sexuality is, and to a cis-person it isn't easy to separate body and mind, especially as we've experienced it. They see themselves as being rock-solid (no pun intended) hereto male, and suddenly being confronted with a person who isn't as they expected can lead to an emotional response.
Better to tell earlier than later, imho.
Monica committed adultery, a treason, an immoral act on my book
The immoral guy dumped his first wife for the nanny he bought back east, now that the mail-order bride has eloped with other dudes, he is crying foul.
He is going to be the butt of jokes until he dies, she is going to get deported, serves them both well for their wickedness
:police:
Tis a bit weird. Didn't he meet her family? Didn't he care to know what her life had been like prior to meeting him? Did she to him?
Quote from: Beth Andrea on November 28, 2012, 01:35:49 PM
Sexual orientation is not the same thing as transgendered.
Being transgendered is not the same thing as being a ciswoman.
For the sake of exploring this, why don't we conduct a thought experiment and remove birth sex, current sex, and gender from this story. Just to consider how much of a factor these things really are.
A person in a wealthy nation leaves their partner and fellow parent to their children for their domestic servant. This servant is a foreign national who is brought to the wealthy nation at great expense. They marry. After about twenty years, their marriage begins to break down due to two issues. The younger partner possibly has been frequenting bars and cheating on their spouse. The younger partner also has been spending increasing amounts of time working for herself. When these issues come to a boiling point, their relationship comes to an explosive end.
We could point out a lot of possible dynamics at play here. To start with, lets look at our older partner. He left his wife for their much younger servant. Interestingly, he seems to have a habit of leaving women once their age and the duration of their marriage hits a certain point. We could very easily say he's simply the kind of man who cannot maintain a relationship with a woman past middle age. Some men require a young-looking woman by their side to feed their ego. Or maybe what he really wanted was somebody to serve him and dote on him, which is why he divorced the first wife and married her in the first place. It would make sense. She started as his maid, and apparently her new full time job was a huge stress on him. Or maybe none of that is true. Maybe his first wife was simply bad for him, and maybe his current anger (though the violence is unjustifiable) is a legitimate response to his wife cheating.
Look at our younger partner. She married a 48 year-old man when she was 32, knowing that he divorced his older wife to get to her. It's possible she didn't really think through the realities of marrying a man twenty years older. He would be slowing down sexually and physically at an age where she might want to still be going out on the town, and she didn't consider the consequences of her decision. It's also possible she knew that and didn't care, that the reason which pushed her over the edge and convinced her to marry him was the lure of a stable life in a wealthy nation. Regardless, she apparently did frequent bars and nightclubs and sometimes cavorted with other men. Whatever the case, she had clear disrespect and disregard for his feelings. Or maybe she had to act this way. Maybe he was a controlling man who loved her when she was his submissive maid but was filled with rage when she began to become independent. Maybe finding comfort in the arms of other men in secret was her only way out.
None of that even touches the trans issue. Yeah, it's all blind speculation. Just trying to illuminate the range of possibilities.
I'm not saying either one is sinner or saint. I honestly just see this as a relationship which is profoundly broken on many levels, independent of her trans issues. And this is going to be one of those brutal, messy divorces, something cis people are equally prone to. Some people just want revenge when their serious relationships end, up to and including any kind of public humiliation or legal extortion they can inflict. I just see his trans comments as a petty attack on her, and his hiring of a lawyer as a spiteful attempt to exact vengeance. I don't think trans issues are the key points here.
Something else to consider, what are the chances he actually did know about her history but was okay with it and are only now using it in an attempt to get the marriage annulled rather than through a divorce so that he wouldn't have to pay alimony that he might otherwise have to pay?
Kupcake's probable scenario is no doubt the most viable so far because it is something we see continually repeated in the modern world. Kupcake has pinpointed the dynamics and the motives that are so atypical in both males and females in a crumbling relationship of this particular nature! I can't count the number of times women have admitted to me that they were single and that their husband of 20 to 40 years has run off with a young bimbo. The younger woman isn't stupid, they know right up front that the man is a commitment fraud and will probably do the same thing to her when something younger, prettier and more buxom comes along. How many times has a former maid or nanny seen the wanderlust of their employer's husband as an opportunity to escape from a dreary life to something better? I would think that both the male and the female in this case are culpable!
Quote from: Kupcake on November 29, 2012, 03:45:48 AM
For the sake of exploring this, why don't we conduct a thought experiment and remove birth sex, current sex, and gender from this story. Just to consider how much of a factor these things really are.
None of that even touches the trans issue. I don't think trans issues are the key points here.
Your absolutely right, I agree 100%, its nothing to do with being trans, but he is using it as an excuse, instead of all the other issues, he says that after discovering her history from 19years before, he is using the ''trans issue'' to get wider support, so he doesn't get my support.
But she was foolish to behave the way she did, theres a pair of them in it.
Quote from: Jayr on November 29, 2012, 10:19:05 AM
And if I did choose to stay and maybe give our relationship another try,
she'd better strap on her ass kissing boots and be very determined to get me back,
cause the road ahead wouldn't be an easy one.
Sounds a bit harsh. As long as she's a good person, I wouldn't mind her keeping her trans status a secret. I believe this is referred to as living "stealth." It's understandable, in my opinion.
Quote from: pretty pauline on November 29, 2012, 02:07:53 PM
Your absolutely right, I agree 100%, its nothing to do with being trans, but he is using it as an excuse, instead of all the other issues, he says that after discovering her history from 19years before, he is using the ''trans issue'' to get wider support, so he doesn't get my support.
But she was foolish to behave the way she did, theres a pair of them in it.
You can't simply remove gender from the equation, it's part of the equation. It's odd how you guys are saying "oh, he knew all along but pretended not to," or "He's just making an excuse for his already failing marriage". Sure his marriage was failing, but those reasons are petty compared to this. Most people, trans friendly or not, would be devastated by this, it isn't a light manner at all. Why would you think that being trans has nothing to do with it when it's clearly a big deal? It's seems to me that saying "he's making excuses" is grasping at straws.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on November 29, 2012, 03:50:24 PM
You can't simply remove gender from the equation, it's part of the equation. It's odd how you guys are saying "oh, he knew all along but pretended not to," ....
Erm, I didn't say that. I asked what do people here think the chances are ...?
There's no evidence to suggest that were the case but the chance is definitely not zero.
My ahem *lover* (not official boyfriend..working on that) looooooooves my parts.
Hes a bit of a ->-bleeped-<- if you ask me.
And he also wouldnt mind if i got SRS(would never)
But he said if i was post op and the whole time we were together i never told him of my past and he had to find out he said he would kick my ass.
So a punch is nothing for her.
Its the least she deserves lolol.
Dont hide crap like that.
Quote from: Keroppi on November 29, 2012, 03:56:17 PM
Erm, I didn't say that. I asked what do people here think the chances are ...?
There's no evidence to suggest that were the case but the chance is definitely not zero.
I don't think it's likely, lol, but you never know. Seems far-fetched.
Quote from: Aeris on November 29, 2012, 03:58:42 PM
And he also wouldnt mind if i got SRS(would never)
But he said if i was post op and the whole time we were together i never told him of my past and he had to find out he said he would kick my ass.
So a punch is nothing for her.
Its the least she deserves lolol.
According to who? That inconsiderate brute? Frankly, anyone who immediately jumps to an unprovoked and undeserved act of violence doesn't have a leg to stand on when calling someone else a bad person.
Quote from: DianaP on November 29, 2012, 04:11:38 PM
According to who? That inconsiderate brute? Frankly, anyone who immediately jumps to an unprovoked and undeserved act of violence doesn't have a leg to stand on when calling someone else a bad person.
his whole marriage was basically a lie.
It didnt exist to him, because he didnt even marry the woman he thought he did.
Its gross to find out crap like that.
So he was provoked.
For those of you that believe that violence was a good solution to this problem, let me ask you one thing: were there not other, more sensible solutions? Being "gross" is not a valid reason for someone to get hit.
As for 19 years of his life being a lie, I just have to say that gender doesn't make a person. He never complained about his wife's body before and even had sex with her. Using his wife's trans status was a pathetic excuse.
Quote from: DianaP on November 29, 2012, 04:23:37 PM
For those of you that believe that violence was a good solution to this problem, let me ask you one thing: were there not other, more sensible solutions? Being "gross" is not a valid reason for someone to get hit.
As for 19 years of his life being a lie, I just have to say that gender doesn't make a person. He never complained about his wife's body before and even had sex with her. Using his wife's trans status was a pathetic excuse.
Hi.
We're living on planet Earth.
The birth sex of your partner of 19 years is *kind of* a big deal, k?
Doesnt nmatter how pretty or how passable you are.
If you want, you can fly to mars or somthing and start a civilization where literally nothing matters, over there.
Over here, thats just how stuff goes
shes lucky she was just hit.
A beating would be the least of her worries.
Quote from: DianaP on November 29, 2012, 04:23:37 PM
were there not other, more sensible solutions?
I'm sure there were. People are rarely sensible when they're pissed off.
Quote from: DianaP on November 29, 2012, 04:23:37 PM
As for 19 years of his life being a lie, I just have to say that gender doesn't make a person. He never complained about his wife's body before and even had sex with her.
I'm sure what he feels now is that she was a man who was tricking him by wearing a woman suit for 19 years. Look at it from his ignorant perception.
Quote from: DianaP on November 29, 2012, 04:23:37 PM
For those of you that believe that violence was a good solution to this problem, let me ask you one thing: were there not other, more sensible solutions? Being "gross" is not a valid reason for someone to get hit.
As for 19 years of his life being a lie, I just have to say that gender doesn't make a person. He never complained about his wife's body before and even had sex with her. Using his wife's trans status was a pathetic excuse.
Gender is a huge part of a person for most people in romantic relationships.
And true, the violence isn't excused by no means, but come on, I think we all know the potential for it is there upon discovery that one's spouse or lover was actually born a different sex than the one they are now. There are too many incidences of it for anyone to take a risk like that and then get surprised when it does happen. We do have to take a little responsibility to try to avoid putting ourselves and others in that sort of situation and while his response was not appropriate, especially to us, it was appropriate in a lot of other people's eyes. Its just simply a reality we have to deal with and try to avoid because its not going to change anytime soon.
Quote from: Jayr on November 29, 2012, 04:32:33 PM
No honey; He loved and never complained about who he thought he was with.
But he wasn't able to complain or judge the truth because he didn't know it.
Hiding something serious like that for 19 years is a valid enough reason.
A punch was nothing. Nothing.
Don't waste peoples time like that. 19 years? Hell no.
People need to learn respect.
If a dude/chick doesn't want to have sex with someone trans he/she has every damn right too,
And that choice should be respected.
Well, suggesting that everything about her was a lie and that her gender can make the difference between real and illusion is a bit shallow. You can feel free to disagree with the importance of gender in a relationship, but advocating violence isn't cool.
PS--> Jayr, if you feel as though I'm wasting your time, remember that you don't have to reply.
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on November 29, 2012, 04:36:23 PM
I'm sure there were. People are rarely sensible when they're pissed off.
I'm sure what he feels now is that she was a man who was tricking him by wearing a woman suit for 19 years. Look at it from his ignorant perception.
Quote from: silly by the seashore on November 29, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
Gender is a huge part of a person for most people in romantic relationships.
And true, the violence isn't excused by no means, but come on, I think we all know the potential for it is there upon discovery that one's spouse or lover was actually born a different sex than the one they are now. There are too many incidences of it for anyone to take a risk like that and then get surprised when it does happen. We do have to take a little responsibility to try to avoid putting ourselves and others in that sort of situation and while his response was not appropriate, especially to us, it was appropriate in a lot of other people's eyes. Its just simply a reality we have to deal with and try to avoid because its not going to change anytime soon.
To clarify, everybody, I must make clear the fact that I'm not an idiot; I understand the reality of the situation. I know that there are less-than-ideal people in the world. I'm just asking for you to acknowledge that he was in the wrong for doing what he did. For those of you who did, I thank you. For those of you that didn't, I ask you to reconsider.
Quote from: DianaP on November 29, 2012, 04:23:37 PM
I just have to say that gender doesn't make a person. He never complained about his wife's body before and even had sex with her. Using his wife's trans status was a pathetic excuse.
Thank you, thats what I ment when I said he was using the trans issue as an excuse, you explained it better.
As most of you already know, my Fiancé didn't know my history, but when we got engaged I did tell him my history, he is now my Husband, he never complained or questioned my femininity or womanhood.
That guy isn't ether, but when everything else went wrong, he blames her for not disclosing her history, when it was all the other crazy stuff that caused the relationship to break down, thats my last word, we'll agree to disagree.
Pauline