I think in the past year or two there has been a backlash against transguys who exhibit stereotypical male behavior. Really they don't have to exhibit the behavior but just looking a certain way.
I think it was propelled with the "trans enough" trend that went around. I never understood why there was such a movement anyways. In well over a decade of transition I have never come across transguys putting down each other for "feminine" behavior or for looking a certain way. If it stemmed from random comments on youtube (only place I can think of it would have started) then in my humble opinion it is malarkey.
I dunno, sometimes I feel like I myself have to tone it down a bit. I'm not a little or a "pretty" guy and I feel like if I expressed opinions or emotions that are "macho" then I would be labeled as someone who was against guys who aren't as masculine. Believe it or not there are more guys who stride the line between femininity and masculinity than transmen who are more on the masculine side.
Call me crazy (won't be the first time) but I feel like the "trans enough" movement may have hurt our community more than anything else. It drew a line in the sand between us when I never understood the issue in the first place (never talked to anyone else who has either).
Maybe it came from a manifestation of guys pushing their insecurities off on one another.
Just some thoughts on the subject.
"trans enough" is about NOT needing to fit into any stereotypes in order to be trans*
I think it is three things
1) what you said, insecurity. Trying to beat each other in masculinity. "I'm more trans then you" means "I deserve transition more, I deserve for it to be easier for me to transition."
2) When you work hard to pass and you are having trouble, and you come across a trans guy who is ok displaying his chest, or he loves tons of girly things and corsets and stuff. it just hits a nerve. Here you are trying your hardest to pass and they are wearing girls clothes because they want to.
It makes you not take them seriously. It makes you think why are they trans. Note, this is not to be confused with transmen drag queens, thats different. Thats for temporary fun.
3)"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke.
I think it IS needed. I think it is totally ok to identify however you want because it is who you actually are. I know it may not be convenient for everybody.
--Jay (J)
I really don't think you guys are understanding what I am saying.
I am talking about there isn't even a need for a "trans enough" movement and that I believe it causes undue tension within the community. As much as it builds those up who question themselves (for whatever reason) it makes some feel like exuding what may be deemed as over masculine behaviors almost insecure about who they are as well.
I see it as a dividing line when there need not be one. I don't see where the guys who exhibit stereotypically feminine behaviors are getting talked down to. If anything they're the more popular transguys online.
I have probably used the term in the past myself to make someone feel better about who they are but in all actuality I don't see the need for the movement.
There is already a "us vs. them" mentality many times when it comes to cis and trans people. There need not be any division amongst ourselves and I think the trans enough movement divides us (even if it is unintentionally doing so).
I agree with you, Simon. 100% Agree with you, mate. As the "macho man" type I feel your pain quite a bit. More feminine trans* boys don't really get much crap for it as far as I've seen. Plus, I don't agree with a lot of what women call "feminism" but is actually misandry (not actual feminism, I know we need that) so I get a lot of "oh, you're just a macho man who hates women" deal and it pisses me off. I don't hate women, but I want us to be equals. A lot of trans* guys get the "but you're supposed to be on OUR side!" mentality and they completely miss my point. Siiigh.
Yeah but there are guys who aren't stereotypically male or do somethings that might be considered less than male, and some of these guys feel insecure. I have heard of several of these types of guys comforted by the trans enough thing. You see threads here of people (both ftm and mtf) upset re: not fitting into the known stereotypes.
Do you have to bind, take T, have top surgery, etc. etc. to be a transguy. You don't.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on December 04, 2012, 12:31:19 AMDo you have to bind, take T, have top surgery, etc. etc. to be a transguy. You don't.
No, of course you don't.
That isn't the issue. The issue is the division it creates. Almost like this is an "anti bullying" campaign. At least that is how I viewed it because anytime the "trans enough" movement rears it's head it's usually accompanied by guys saying they've experienced other transguys making them feel less than (for not packing, not lifting, not taking T, etc). I have never seen a transman bully another transman. I think this movement is just a way for people with insecurities to make themselves feel better.
Then there are those of us just sitting here scratching our heads wondering if it is ok to be stereotypically masculine because it is almost as though that is now frowned upon by a greater population of guys...because of the division the movement has unintentionally created.
I agree with Simon once again. I think it's a combination of insecurity and jealousy, but truth is we all feel that way at some point. It shouldn't divide us even though it does.
I know what you mean. I actually feel less trans because of the movement :( . I feel like because I make my voice lower and all the other things I do to cope with dysphoria I'm less trans and I am just following stereo types (and I cross dress sometimes). The only people I have gotten crap from cross dressing was cis people, so I don't really see the point.
I'm glad some of you guys are in the same boat with me on this topic. I really wish the "trans enough" movement would have been inclusive to everyone.
I think a "Just Be You" movement would have been more productive and inclusive.
Thankfully, this community Susans seems to have a little less of that sort of thing than others. : / Honestly that sort of activity can really be a kick in the teeth if you already feel ostracised, only to be told that you don't deserve to transition and your struggles are irrelevant. I've been told I'm not *feminine/masculine/whatever* enough in other places to have people who are going through similar problems to put me on the rails for no reason. Transitioning isn't some sort of 'whos dysphoria is worse' dick size contest, that sort of attitude is just sick, sadly, I feel like I see it a lot.
Guh it makes me so mad. Why can't people just be supportive? Don't they realize it makes them just as bad as the people who treat THEM unfairly?
I've seen a noteable amount of the "not trans enough" thing or just people straight up saying non-conforming guys don't have a right to the same treatments as those guys who are transitioning to "exclusivly" male. I got into it in a thread not too long ago here in regards to that.
To me, it's fine to have your own opinions and of course to live your life how you want to, but when you start dictating what other people can and can't do, that's stepping over the line. And I think it's directly related to people's own insecurity. And I can understand that .... if all you really want is to "pass" and you don't you want to get on T asap, you are super critical of every little aspect of yourself, and you can't understand how some guys can be ok with their chest or looking femme or whatever. But seriously, welcome to the wider world. Everyone is different and there's a ton of variety in the gender spectrum.
What's confusing to me is that there's plenty of "femanine" traits slipping into even the "cis" world. Men are into hair care products, fashion, even stuff like make up, laser hair removal etc etc. It's not just trans guys who are feeling more confident to embrace things like this. I'm not even talking about hobbies or anything I'm strictly talking looks here. But there's such a wide variety of guys out there. There's MAAB guys who hate being hairy, so they get waxed or laser hair removal but if a trans guy says he doesn't want to be hairy he gets dog piled by a bunch of other trans guys that say something like, "you can't pick and choose what you get on T! You can't be a real male if you can't handle hair blah blah blah." I don't understand how wanting to look a certain way, even if it's andro or femme, is really any different than desiring to look like an "average male" or a "macho" guy.
So in short I think the "not trans enough" is detrimental and leads to even worse behavior and inacceptance.
Quote from: AscendantDevon on December 04, 2012, 01:37:04 AM
Honestly that sort of activity can really be a kick in the teeth if you already feel ostracised, only to be told that you don't deserve to transition and your struggles are irrelevant. I've been told I'm not *feminine/masculine/whatever* enough in other places to have people who are going through similar problems to put me on the rails for no reason.
Wow, I'm sorry you've had other trans people come at you like that. I've never experienced or even seen that happening (I would step in if I did).
I don't understand how a trans person could have a go at another trans person. We've all been in the same predicament. We've all felt dysphoria and that feeling of not belonging.
I've dealt with transguys acting as if my struggles aren't as valid as theirs because I naturally produce T (that is ending in 10 days with my hysto) but nobody has been blatantly rude. Generally they're just dismissive.
There's a great deal of anti-masculine propaganda on "FTM" groups now. I've left several Facebook groups because of it. I feel like I have little in common with the majority of the transguys in groups. I'm not gay, I'm traditionally a binary-identified male and masculine, I don't like glitter and I'm not into feminism.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on December 04, 2012, 02:48:26 AM
There's a great deal of anti-masculine propaganda on "FTM" groups now. I've left several Facebook groups because of it. I feel like I have little in common with the majority of the transguys in groups. I'm not gay, I'm traditionally a binary-identified male and masculine, I don't like glitter and I'm not into feminism.
I fully agree with you. Being a transguy online who isn't "pretty, emotional, or feminine" actually puts us as the minority. So far this is the only place I associate with other trans people. I'm going to be making videos for myself as my transition goes along and I have thought about doing the YouTube thing eventually but that remains to be seen.
It's basically that I don't want to step on any toes with my opinions. I fully respect other guys...no matter if they are gay, feminine, cross dressing, or whatever else...but that is not me. I would like to see more masculine guys represented but I think it is frowned upon and discouraged.
Quote from: Simon on December 04, 2012, 03:24:21 AM
It's basically that I don't want to step on any toes with my opinions. I fully respect other guys...no matter if they are gay, feminine, cross dressing, or whatever else...but that is not me. I would like to see more masculine guys represented but I think it is frowned upon and discouraged.
What does all of that even make me? The anti-masculine propaganda pretty much means I'm too masculine, but the masculine trans guys would say I'm too feminine :( Also no reason to do what the anti-masculine propaganda does just the other way around ;).
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on December 04, 2012, 03:31:12 AM
What does all of that even make me? The anti-masculine propaganda pretty much means I'm too masculine, but the masculine trans guys would say I'm too feminine :( Also no reason to do what the anti-masculine propaganda does just the other way around ;).
That is what I'm saying. There shouldn't be any division and especially not one created by the trans community as a "movement".
My gf was just talking to me about this and the funny thing is to the cis gendered world I'm really not all that masculine. I'm a straight guy who is...well...a nerd. I like computers, body modifications, weight lifting (the most stereotypical masculine thing I like), Sci Fi, comic books, superheros, dinosaurs, horror films (especially zombies), and medieval stuff. I'm
not into cars, guns, motorcycles, or things of that nature that the cis gendered world sees as masculine traits. Yet amongst the online FTM community I am rather masculine.
Y'know, this is one of the things I love about being an Aspie: I don't have to give two hoots about whether other people think I'm 'trans enough' or 'masculine enough' or even 'feminine enough'. I'm glad that Susan's is a non-judgemental place where we can be ourselves, without all that '->-bleeped-<-r than thou' nonsense.
I like & dislike similar stuff to Simon, but I do that because I'm me.
I'm just me. And guess what? I'm 'me enough' for me. :)
In my experience the "not trans enough" arguments are actually made towards people who are more in the middle of the gender spectrum. Even to the point of saying people who don't completely see themselves as male should not get access to hormones.
So, this thread is a bit eye-opening, because it seems like divisions are causing discomfort across the board, whereas before I never would have imagined that people who identity as completely masculine were feeling not trans enough. The arguments I have seen made, on this board even, are more along the lines of "You are just playing" unless you desire to fold yourself into the male side of the binary.
Shows what I know, and it really is indicative of the damage divisions cause us.
I feel not trans enough because I don't really care that I'll never be completely biologically male, because what is the point of dwelling on something you can't change? I'm me, I need to like being me, and transitioning improves the experience of being me.
When the world is against us, we can change things by banding together instead of quibbling over who gets to be what, so I completely agree with most of the posts in this thread.
Let's make a: I'm me enough for me campaign :D
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on December 04, 2012, 06:06:01 AM
Let's make a: I'm me enough for me campaign :D
Somehow I can see that making its way into my signature... ;)
The trans enough is the most ignorant and transphobic agument in the trans-comunety for anything.
Its only used to put people in boxes and jugde them.
The trans enough thing had been used for threatment of transexuals in certain countrys (ex my own).
"so if your not trans enough we dont want to threat you" like in the documentary of transexuals in iran, where they show how your only allowed to be steryotypical male or female.
if your gay your to die, and your not allowed to be anything near "the middle line" of gender spectum or roles. only options are to be "a real woman" or "a real man" which supress alot of people to foce themself into either of those categories.
Transsexuals in Iran completed Doku (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qa2pRQdmkI#)
thats NOT trans*-accepting its just accepting the binary of certain people. like saying you like all children, but in fact you only like the white ones.
The bad point for those system are it force people into doing thing who really arnt there own choice to get accepted. But even without this system I still heard this pretty much all the time.
---------
I guess a part of it is due to sociaty. the typical male pattern is to be "a real man" and I think many transguys go thought a phrase of there life where they fight alot to get accepted as a man. being a "real man". (I did so myself) In order to fit in you would have to go to there level of male-supression and give up certain things for yourself.
Another part is the. "I dont want to be confussed with a ->-bleeped-<-", "I dont want people to think im so femenin" bla bla bla.. aguments.
Now honestly thats a ignorant agument, so we are going to hate all kind of people diffrent from outself because we are scared we would be compared? it seams ridiculous. also femenine trans guys can say the same.
ex for me its annoying having the typical masculine trans steryptype on like. "oh so when are you going to get a penis? your packing? your want to cut your hair?" or are we simple going to make sign, of what we are allowed and not allowed to do.
---
I honestly dont get why we cant get along femenine vs masculine.
Im actually not agenst very manly guys or very femenine and so on, neither agenst transexuals or ->-bleeped-<-s, im only agenst the hate because it dose no good for anyone.
Yeah, I can see what Simon is saying.
From watching some videos on Youtube and reading the comments, sometimes people take what transguys, especially the more masculine ones, are saying out of context and spin it to make it seem like they are these evil male chauvinists. Like, one guy was just saying that he wanted more male friends, and the comments just went crazy with people saying "what?! your female friends aren't good enough for you? now that you pass, you've just become another guy touting his male privilege." I just thought that was a little crazy, because he wasn't saying that he hated women or didn't want female friends.
I do see some need for a "trans enough" project though, since some guys do get crap for being on the femme side; but now there's guys who get crap for being on the more masculine side.
Awesome, another aspie on here. Actually thought I might be alone!
Space and Nat, I have also seen where your side comes from. The middle of the spectrum getting the bad end of things. But I have been subjected to it too, especially for not announcing my trans status every time I walk into a room...I don't live stealth but I'm not going to talk about it unless I have to. But a lot of people think doing that is "denying that you're trans" which is a bunch of malarkey. Being trans is part of something that made me who I am today and I don't want to give that up.
I am sort of in your position though. I will never be a cis male so I don't get hung up about it. I will probably never have a penis and that's okay with me. Luckily, I have a partner who accepts everything about me (and has been with me through transition--in fact he very much likes androgyny so I was in luck). And because of that (he's the only person I got because I don't have family) I'm able to accept myself, move on, and do what I can because I have a support system.
And that's all I can do. That's all any of us can do. I wish there wasn't this rift of just "how" trans you are.
When I look about people much farther down the line than me, I get a little jealous but mostly I'm just proud that another brother fulfilled his life.
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 04, 2012, 08:52:50 AM
From watching some videos on Youtube and reading the comments, sometimes people take what transguys, especially the more masculine ones, are saying out of context and spin it to make it seem like they are these evil male chauvinists.
Exactly, that is what I am seeing. I do think a lot of that comes from guys who haven't began to medically transition and don't fully understand how different people feel after they have been medically transitioning for awhile. Transition changes you. People treating you as if you were always in the body you present as brings a lot of transguys out of their shell (or former "safe zone"). Many transsexuals want to cross over and be seen as whole people who were born cis gendered. Nothing wrong with that. People should live their lives how they see fit. It happens all the time.
As you mentioned YouTube is a great representation of how transmen evolve. I would bet you $100 that 3 years from now 95% of the transmen on YouTube now won't be there in 2015. YT is just a platform many receive support on and once they transition to a point where they can assimilate in cis gendered society they do. Nothing wrong with that but that is how it normally goes.
Quote from: Seb on December 04, 2012, 12:49:41 PM
I have been subjected to it too, especially for not announcing my trans status every time I walk into a room...I don't live stealth but I'm not going to talk about it unless I have to. But a lot of people think doing that is "denying that you're trans" which is a bunch of malarkey.
Yep, come across that too. Why would anyone want to integrate that into how they describe themselves? Should I meet someone, shake hands, and say "I'm Simon the ->-bleeped-<-"? Um..NO, lol. I just don't understand the need to be everyone's token ->-bleeped-<-. I never deny it
IF I am asked in a respectful and dignified manner. If I am asked in a crude fashion I will either say no or simply say it is nobody's business what I am or am not.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on December 04, 2012, 05:37:52 AM
Y'know, this is one of the things I love about being an Aspie: I don't have to give two hoots about whether other people think I'm 'trans enough' or 'masculine enough' or even 'feminine enough'. I'm glad that Susan's is a non-judgemental place where we can be ourselves, without all that '->-bleeped-<-r than thou' nonsense.
Thanks for that, it made me really laugh :p
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on December 04, 2012, 02:48:26 AM
There's a great deal of anti-masculine propaganda on "FTM" groups now. I've left several Facebook groups because of it. I feel like I have little in common with the majority of the transguys in groups. I'm not gay, I'm traditionally a binary-identified male and masculine, I don't like glitter and I'm not into feminism.
This makes absolutely no sense. How can you be anti-masculine
and FTM. I mean, I get that some dudes are more 'dude'ly than others, but that's just the way people are. Some men are cowboys, some are twinks, some are caught in the middle. Women are the same. You must be somewhat pro-dude because you are one, so why the self-hate? It's like backwards feminism. I'll admit, this thread has been pretty confusing to me. I've seen a lot of FtM vs MtF hate, but I didn't know there was discrimination
within the Ftm group. I must be way out of the loop on this one. This makes me glad I don't have a lot of friends, haha.
Quote from: Seb on December 04, 2012, 12:49:41 PM
Awesome, another aspie on here. Actually thought I might be alone!
Space and Nat, I have also seen where your side comes from. The middle of the spectrum getting the bad end of things. But I have been subjected to it too, especially for not announcing my trans status every time I walk into a room...I don't live stealth but I'm not going to talk about it unless I have to. But a lot of people think doing that is "denying that you're trans" which is a bunch of malarkey. Being trans is part of something that made me who I am today and I don't want to give that up.
I am sort of in your position though. I will never be a cis male so I don't get hung up about it. I will probably never have a penis and that's okay with me. Luckily, I have a partner who accepts everything about me (and has been with me through transition--in fact he very much likes androgyny so I was in luck). And because of that (he's the only person I got because I don't have family) I'm able to accept myself, move on, and do what I can because I have a support system.
And that's all I can do. That's all any of us can do. I wish there wasn't this rift of just "how" trans you are.
When I look about people much farther down the line than me, I get a little jealous but mostly I'm just proud that another brother fulfilled his life.
Honestly, I dont feel like saying i'm trans each time either. I say it if it got a meaning in it, but I dont feel like I should do it all the time.
Now I also get the. "sure you shall always say your trans" and no I dont do that always. I do it when I feel its has something to do with my, or is on the topic. (or times where the system gets confussed)
But I dont see what it got to do with the whole accepting the masculine or femenine trans folks to do? its not like your nessesarry outed because your friend is trans as well.
As far as the Youtube thing goes, do any of you happen to look at comments on ANY videos? There's always some ->-bleeped-<- who comes along and starts something or spouts off like they think they know it all or try to degrade the person in the video. Doesn't matter what the video is about. I think over the years the internet has just bread a particular brand of idiot who probably has a lot of life issues of their own but likes to go around and try to post things to harass or degrade other people and make themselves feel better. It's classic psychology in action and it knows no boundaries.
While we may all have one or more things in common (being trans, having dysphoria, similar life experiences regarding feelings of being in the wrong body or wrong role in society, etc. etc.) there's a hell of a lot that makes up each person and it's why we're all individuals and not carbon copy clones. Variety is the spice of life, as they say, but the problem is that people like to associate more often with people who are more similar to themselves than dissimilar. When putting that theory under the trans microscope, gender identity and physical presentation would be pretty important, major issues. Therefore, you get very masculine trans guys having a large commonality just like you have femme guys having a commonality and hence the different "factions" or groups. I think it's more inherent human behavior to do something like that than it is to just accept everyone 100% and have no problems with differences. If humans really were like that there's be no hate, discrimination, etc. in the world.
To me, what needs to happen is that people need to realize that the aspect we all share with the most importance is still being trans. That's still the #1 thing we all have common. Now if you're not really trans, but identify as more genderqueer or something else, that's okay too because it falls under the same larger, all-encompassing umbrella of "gender identity".
I'm going to go on a tangent here but bear with me because I think it has relevance to the "larger picture". So there's an LGBT community/movement, right? Lesbian ... gay ... bisexual and then transsexual. To me, one of those things is not like the others. Sure, people can say that they were "born this way" in that they did not choose who they are sexually attracted to. But that's still sexual attraction, which to me, is different from gender identity. Transsexuals do not choose to be transsexual. It's my belief that we are born this way. But it doesn't have anything to do with sexual attraction – that's another layer on top of trans. So you can be trans and gay, trans and lesbian, trans and bi, trans and poly, etc. Right there is a fundamental separation between the T's and the rest of the LGB's and in my personal opinion I feel like an outsider even in that larger community. Now, since the T's are already a little like outsiders I think a lot of the behavior could be a result of this. We're not fully accepted by "cis" people and we're not fully accepted by the LGB's because we just flat out different on a level that they don't and they can't fully understand it. They can sympathize with some of the things we've had to go through (discrimination, being chastised by family, losing friendships/relationships, etc. etc. all because of who you are), but they can never understand what it's like to have the "wrong body" and fully be aware of that 24/7. Because your sexual preference is not hetro, you do not need to undergo medical treatment or change your body at all to align with your mind (I won't go into the fact that there once was a medical treatment for being gay ... just talking present day here). Still LGBT is all one supposed community. But I think the fundamental differences are what has created some of the unsavory behavior. For instance, certain butch lesbians who hate trans guys. All sorts of issues like the, "You just want to be a man to have that male privilege" I think can be related here. Because a large portion of trans people just want to disappear into the binary world, they take crap from a lot of different angles.
I'm certainly not saying that the the majority of people act this way. One of my best friend's is gay and totally accepts me and my lifestyle. But there's a percentage that are going to have issues.
"Cis" people will also never truly understand. I've tried to explain it metaphorically to people but they just can't grasp the concept. It's absolutely foreign to them. And with a segment of the population, anything "foreign" like that is going to cause them to put up their defenses. And sometimes those defenses are lashing out at those who are different.
As for liking certain things and acting a certain way and looking a certain way ... that should be strictly up to the individual and people should not get sh*t about that, but we're circling back to the beginning again where people who like certain things, look a certain way, etc. are going to associate most with other people who like the same things, etc. That's not to say people don't associate at all with others who are different. To me, that's what makes life fun. If I only hung around with or talked to people with my same interests, I'd personally find that boring as hell.
I like guns, muscle cars, horror, sci-fi, comic books, action/adventure, camping, fishing ... and I also like stuff like baking cookies, art, fashion, sewing ... These are all things that make me, me. And I happen to look andro/more female because I really can't do anything about that, so that's just me too. I don't like being lumped into the categories of "female"and "femme" because I'm not, but I am all the time just because of the way I look. What's worse is that I'm mostly okay with the way I look, which opens me up for even more of that crap. I've gotten plenty of the "you're not really male ... not male enough ... not trans enough ... blah blah blah."
When I was involved in GLBT stuff I noticed that many trans men tended to hang out with lesbians. Also many trans women hung out with gay men, in fact long ago I hung out at a gay bar because I felt it was a safe place for trans women and many other trans women obviously felt the same way.
Later I realized that many lesbians liked trans men because they considered them women and many gay men liked to hang out with trans women because they considered them men.
People who transition who cannot afford surgery, top surgery and especially bottom surgery tend to be sorta stuck in the middle, regardless of where they actually want to be. And it is human nature to believe we like something a certain way when we cannot have it another way, I believe it is referred to "sour grapes" in psychology, a reference to Aristotle's story of the fox and the grapes which illustrates the situation. Someone who cannot have something decides that "something" is not worth having and as a result of that "decision" he or she may become irritated by seeing others who possess that something and make negative comments.
The transition phenomenon has created a byproduct of transition, the trans person. People originally transitioned to be their target sex but once people began transitioning they started to adopt an identity of being trans. We are told to be proud of our trans identity and we find ourselves in a sort of virtual "community" where it seems like the ideas we adopt (about being trans) will either impact our "community" positively or negatively.
So it only seems appropriate to think thoughts that will benefit our brothers and sisters and it only seems right to adopt the idea of being trans, to become trans-identified to the greater point and being target sex identified has to humbly step down and honor trans identification as the greater good.
But really... That is a product of being a member of a group and of adopting group think. The group isn't going to walk you through your life. You only owe allegiance to yourself. Besides, you gotta save yourself before you can become a rescuer. And perhaps rescuing people is better left in the hands of those who are more qualified. The "community" does not depend upon you for it's survival. The community will not die if you are too manly or too feminine. Rather it is healthy for people to continue to go in their own directions, not only for themselves but so that others will be more certain to realize there are options. Some of us want those sweet grapes!
Mmmm delicious grapes.
Quote from: Elijah on December 03, 2012, 11:05:23 PM
I think it is three things
1) what you said, insecurity. Trying to beat each other in masculinity. "I'm more trans then you" means "I deserve transition more, I deserve for it to be easier for me to transition."
2) When you work hard to pass and you are having trouble, and you come across a trans guy who is ok displaying his chest, or he loves tons of girly things and corsets and stuff. it just hits a nerve. Here you are trying your hardest to pass and they are wearing girls clothes because they want to.
It makes you not take them seriously. It makes you think why are they trans. Note, this is not to be confused with transmen drag queens, thats different. Thats for temporary fun.
3)"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke.
Hard to tell if you're being serious here? If so, this is exactly why these campaigns are necessary...
Quote from: Simon on December 04, 2012, 02:32:11 AM
Wow, I'm sorry you've had other trans people come at you like that. I've never experienced or even seen that happening (I would step in if I did).
I don't understand how a trans person could have a go at another trans person. We've all been in the same predicament. We've all felt dysphoria and that feeling of not belonging.
I've dealt with transguys acting as if my struggles aren't as valid as theirs because I naturally produce T (that is ending in 10 days with my hysto) but nobody has been blatantly rude. Generally they're just dismissive.
I'm surprised you haven't noticed it because it happens a lot on this forum, actually. Not to mention people supporting upholding the "criteria" for being granted T/surgery etc and the continued pathologisation of trans people by making hard and fast lines of what is and isn't trans. And of course the extreme reactions to transguys who choose to give birth or breastfeed as transguys instead of falling inline with cissexist bull. I also wonder if perhaps you haven't noticed it because you're not feminine yourself.
I also tend to wonder if this is more about the loss of privilege in spaces that were traditionally hypermasculine (transguy spaces in the past and more traditionalist groups now) than the so-called "privileging" of feminine guys.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on December 04, 2012, 02:48:26 AM
There's a great deal of anti-masculine propaganda on "FTM" groups now. I've left several Facebook groups because of it. I feel like I have little in common with the majority of the transguys in groups. I'm not gay, I'm traditionally a binary-identified male and masculine, I don't like glitter and I'm not into feminism.
And there we go... This idea of so-called "anti-masculine propaganda"... masculinity is beyond privileged in most trans spaces especially in online forums, not to mention society in general. Just because those who are made to feel like ->-bleeped-<- because of it try to carve a little space for themselves does not mean they are "anti-masculine." I generally come off as pretty masculine...I've never had problems in such groups. People
will react more to anti-feminist attitudes, though, and rightfully so. Also interesting interesting that you threw sexuality in there as though it's so damn easy to be a gay transguy...
Quote from: Simon on December 04, 2012, 02:22:32 PM
Exactly, that is what I am seeing. I do think a lot of that comes from guys who haven't began to medically transition and don't fully understand how different people feel after they have been medically transitioning for awhile. Transition changes you. People treating you as if you were always in the body you present as brings a lot of transguys out of their shell (or former "safe zone"). Many transsexuals want to cross over and be seen as whole people who were born cis gendered. Nothing wrong with that. People should live their lives how they see fit. It happens all the time.
I wish people would really speak for themselves when they make these sweeping generalisations about how transguys feel about the way they interact with society. There is definitely a massive divide between guys who think that being born trans is a "defect" that they need to fix rather than a part of human diversity, to the point where its almost being apologist towards cis society, and guys who are see themselves as just as deserving of rights and recognition as cis people. Being out as trans would not be a big deal if society were actually accepting, so obviously there's a lot of work to be done. I highly doubt the people you're talking about are reacting to the fact that some trans people don't want to be out as trans or even identify as trans. However, I have noticed that people who do so also tend to be very rigid about gender and also tend to be very conservative politically...kind of like the anti-feminist stuff that comes up in these sorts of threads. And that is very important to react to from a rights perspective.
Beserk, along those lines, the guy (who is trans and not the slightest bit feminine) who runs our trans center thinks that trans guys get treated better than transgals due to male privilege. If you think about it it makes sense. Transguys, even non-passing ones like myself, can easily dress in male clothes, no issues. Our non-passing sisters dress in female clothes and it is plenty hard. Worth thinking about.
I feel male, but I don't think of myself as completely and totally masculine. I think I am feeling more and more easy with the other side of me. But if someone feels super jock, that's there right as well.
--Jay
Eh, I see more feminine trans guys get crap from other trans guys. Sometimes it's about "who really deserves T" and the T shortage. Other times it's general gender policing.
I wasn't going to respond because now it almost seems like I'm going to get told I'm wrong no matter what viewpoint I share about this topic. Maybe some of you are correct and I don't see it because I'm not feminine. Then again I could say the same thing back at you. Maybe you don't see how more masculine guys are made to feel like we're wrong for expressing ourselves as well.
The only thing I can see is that sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree.
Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:15:19 AM
I wasn't going to respond because now it almost seems like I'm going to get told I'm wrong no matter what viewpoint I share about this topic. Maybe some of you are correct and I don't see it because I'm not feminine. Then again I could say the same thing back at you. Maybe you don't see how more masculine guys are made to feel like we're wrong for expressing ourselves as well.
The only thing I can see is that sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree.
I think people are just saying that it is happening on both sides, not that you are wrong. I am glad you made your posts.
However, as Berserk pointed out, you can see it happening to people in the middle even on this thread, directly in response to your post:
Quote from: Elijah on December 03, 2012, 11:05:23 PM
3)"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke.
If he's being facetious to make a point, my apologies, but saying there are "less trans" people at all is saying someone isn't trans enough.
Comments like this seem purposefully exclusionary to parts of our community. You can want to transition and still see yourself more in the middle of the gender spectrum, and it doesn't make you "less trans". It certainly doesn't invalidate every other trans person. When/if trans people are seen as a joke to other people, why wouldn't we want to change that instead of reinforcing it?
Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:15:19 AM
I wasn't going to respond because now it almost seems like I'm going to get told I'm wrong no matter what viewpoint I share about this topic. Maybe some of you are correct and I don't see it because I'm not feminine. Then again I could say the same thing back at you. Maybe you don't see how more masculine guys are made to feel like we're wrong for expressing ourselves as well.
The only thing I can see is that sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree.
Just because someone disagrees with the your idea about the way masculine vs. feminine transguys are treated doesn't necessarily mean that the people disagreeing are feminine appearing or identifying themselves. For example, I've never been read as feminine and tend to be seen as very masculine. I don't identify either way because I don't see it as mattering now that I'm comfortable as a transguy, but in this case your argument seems to be based around others' perceptions of transguys as masculine, so I figured I'd throw that out there. I think it's important to realise that, because people often think that because someone doesn't just automatically "side" with masculine men that they must not be masculine men themselves. They must be somehow viewed as feminine, androgynous (because anything short of manly man is "feminine" in society's eyes), really a woman, gay (because lord knows all gay or queer men must be feminine or "girlier" than straight-identified men) etc. etc. I went to a protest against a so-called "men's issues" (the type who thinks men are systemically "oppressed" by women in society and that women have immense social privilege over men) group on campus a few weeks ago and those same assumptions were made. It was great to see a nice amount of outwardly appearing "big burly masculine cisdudes" taking an active role in organising the rally, setting up petitions against the group and basically trying to get it out there that cismen are feminists, cismen can recognise cismale privilege and work towards women's rights, and not only that but that masculine people as a whole can do the same by realising the privilege they have within a greater social context that praises masculinity and maleness. By realising that groups like women and trans groups or other similar groups are necessary in order to make certain voices heard that are often drowned out institutionally and socially within greater society.
I do think it's important for people who are often degraded in society to have a place to make their voices heard. In this case feminine guys or guys who just don't feel like they fit into the medical establishment's idea of "trans enough to get T/surgery/be taken seriously." And we've seen this in this thread, in this forum. People shamed Trevor MacDonald for wanting to lead a breastfeeding group where he was breastfeeding his own child as "making transguys look bad/society won't take us seriously with people like this running around." People never stopped shaming Thomas Beatie for giving birth to his own children for the same reasons. On this forum you do have people often mirroring the psychiatric/medical protocols of determining who "deserves" hormones or surgery. Many places you go to get approved for either HRT or surgery (if obtained via public health care), the reality is that if you're bi, if you're gay, if you're queer (because they really do want to mould transguys into cis and straight looking men, instead of allowing any kind of variation or diversity), if you're feminine, if you aren't following they're tips to "pass" more or be more "masculine"...they have the power to deny you what you need, and they'll only give you your "cookie" if you fit decently enough into the masculine cookie cutter and play the social role they want you to. Some places are changing, yes...but a lot of them are still backwards as hell. It seems to make masculine straight-identified transguys resent feminine/andro/gay/queer transguys and it seems a lot of guys don't realise that it's
because of those idiotic criteria,
because they are essentially making us compete against each other for "the cookie" (as they see it). But what is happening these days is that instead of being shamed into conformity, guys who don't fit the mould are trying to be more visible, trying to say "yes, we are legitimately trans!" because that's been denied them so often. As a transguy who generally presents as masculine, I've never felt like anyone was trying to make me feel lesser. I also don't see people calling me out on something ->-bleeped-<-ed up I say or do as an offense. I see people wanting their turn at the table to talk about their experience outside of the masculine-presenting experience. It doesn't mean we all can't get our experience, but I do see why people push back hard when there are transguys basically mirroring and supporting the traditional trans narrative/the discrimination that is still perpetuated by the psychiatric/medical establishment.
I think I understand the gist of what you were saying Simon and I agree there is no reason for this "trans enough" nonsense.
I'm actually surprised to read this thread. I've seen plenty of backlash about trans men "not being masculine enough", like they are destroying things for other trans men if they aren't the extreme stereotypical male. I know plenty of cis men who aren't stereotypical males in every way, but they are definitely male and identify as male. I don't like the idea overall that we all have to fit into a neat little gender box and to be expected to fit into society's traditional "male" and "female" stereotypes and roles.
Ok, this thread did a complete 180. It went from masculine transmen feeling like we can't assert ourselves to bringing up examples of downtrodden feminine transmen and their struggles.
It's not about them per say. It's about masculine guys who feel like if we are who we are then we are looked at as if we are feminine bashing neanderthals who grunt while dragging our knuckles on the ground as we walk, lol. From the looks of it I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Someone just had to bring up Thomas Beatie. I will admit that I don't understand why someone would transition to that point, decide to get pregnant (which was fine and dandy..his life, whatever), and then (here is where the problem is) decide to make himself a public spectacle. I may get stoned in here for saying this but you know what...it's my opinion so take it or leave it. I think Thomas Beatie set us back at least a decade as far as how the public sees transsexual men. We are such a small minority within a minority that anytime one of us gets in the public spotlight that is what people remember. You do become representative of everyone. He did a piss poor job, imo.
I simply think that masculine transman visibility is dwindling. It has nothing to do with someone being labeled "trans enough" or deeming that feminine transmen aren't worthy of this, that, or the other. I wish them all the best..I really do. However, I think trying to gain acceptance for them (publically) that society sees even further out on the limb is putting the cart before the horse.
Again, just responding to what this thread has become (that was never intended).
Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 02:01:08 PM
Well I know a couple of transguys who been pregnant, 1 had been in the media another one had consider it stickly.
the first one tried to live as a woman in all ways including getting pregnant before transition, the other one Just wanted kids really badly and there had been no other ways to get kids than to get pregnant.
The one who went to the media did it to make awareness to political change some laws about transgenders rights to have children. the other one considered it due to people's bad reacting of transguys having kids, and there very limited knowlegde. I don't know alot about Thomas But I think he have done for something like the same reason, Really wanted kids, done what he could and made some awareness for things to get better.
-
Now, I do understand the Backslap of maculinety, I actually got it myself,
and I belive in such a thing as male-opression (even when I belive women oppression is worse in general)
But Honestly, it's hard to take your serious when you talk about how your been put down for being maculine when you at the same time put people who arn't typically maculine by saying how bad they are.
Really, what do you exept the reaction to be??
---
Quote from: Natkat on December 05, 2012, 03:34:01 PM
But Honestly, it's hard to take your serious when you talk about how your been put down for being maculine when you at the same time put people who arn't typically maculine by saying how bad they are.
Really, what do you exept the reaction to be??
When did I say anyone is "bad" or less worthy as a man because they're feminine? Point that out because I don't think I said that anywhere. I talked about how limited trans visibility is and when it is in the public arena how the public scrutinizes ALL of us based on the very few who go into the media spotlight.
Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:15:19 AM
I wasn't going to respond because now it almost seems like I'm going to get told I'm wrong no matter what viewpoint I share about this topic. Maybe some of you are correct and I
....
The only thing I can see is that sometimes it's just better to agree to disagree.
Well I don't know if you are wrong so much as that I just don't agree with you. Defend to the death (well maybe not quite THAT!)
--Jay
Quote from: FullThrottleMalehem on December 05, 2012, 12:55:18 PM
I'm actually surprised to read this thread. I've seen plenty of backlash about trans men "not being masculine enough", like they are destroying things for other trans men if they aren't the extreme stereotypical male. I know plenty of cis men who aren't stereotypical males in every way, but they are definitely male and identify as male.
This was kind of the point I was making in my first post. That even a percentage of MAAB people have been a lot less stereotypically masculine in recent years.
Anyway, this is one of those damned if you do damned if you don't kind of situations. Society still doesn't accept trans people as a whole (hell look how long it's taken to
sort of accept being gay as normal). So plenty of non-trans people out there are still going to see even the most masculine trans guy as a women (or even worse ... like a "freak"), if they find out. So a lot of the more masculine trans guys just completely disappear into "cis" male society. Is that wrong? No. But if they do that, then they get a backlash from the trans community that they're not supporting the whole trans thing by just claiming all that "male privilege" (or get told they're anti-women, blah blah blah).
The way I see it though is that that particular group of trans guys you usually only hear from them while they're transitioning ... then they disappear and just blend into the other clearly identifiable males in society. However, if you happen to be one of those femme or andro guys, you can expect to get sh*t for the long run because you don't fit into society's mold. Even though MAAB guys can also get sh*t for not being "strictly male", I think they're more equipped, for lack of a better word, to deal with it, because unlike trans guys they've never actually had to live their life as a female and be given that role in society. They're also only getting it from other "cis" people whereas the trans guys are getting it from other trans guys and "cis" people.
Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:53:04 PM
I talked about how limited trans visibility is and when it is in the public arena how the public scrutinizes ALL of us based on the very few who go into the media spotlight.
I see your point, Simon, and I understand it. You'd be correct that the masses judge by the few spot-light trans(wo)men, and it's unfair when each experience, trans-related or not, is unique and tailored to the individual. The issue is not whether a transman is "trans enough"-- too masculine or too feminine -- to be the "ideal" transman or just a man, in fact, but rather the conceived notion that all definitions of transgender are cookie cutter, one size fits all.
You're also correct in saying that because of the "trans enough" movement, it did draw a line, an exclusion of you (not singular, but what you stand for)...I think, no matter, if you are a masculine transman or a feminine transman, there are going to be moments when you believe you won't meet or hear anyone like you. With over six billion people in the world, it's not likely you won't find the masculine community you are looking for, but maybe it's a good thing too...you can set yourself as a you-man, rather than someone else's standard of masculine.
Maybe I'm not fully understanding the discussion here,
But I'm very thankful for the 'Trans Enough' movement, I fully support it and I made a video for it like plenty of other trans guys.
Of course, I'm on the different end of the spectrum from you as far as masculinity goes - the only thing really masculine about me is the fact that I want a dick.
I can understand though, that you'd feel like there's a negative side to being 'too masculine,'
In the trans community, I've run across many more feminine guys than masculine.
...It's too early, can't think properly...not sure where I was going with this.
Quote from: Simon on December 05, 2012, 03:53:04 PM
When did I say anyone is "bad" or less worthy as a man because they're feminine? Point that out because I don't think I said that anywhere. I talked about how limited trans visibility is and when it is in the public arena how the public scrutinizes ALL of us based on the very few who go into the media spotlight.
Femenine or just not the typical.
---
When you talk about Thomas you talk as your opinion is his putting transpeople into a bad light, because his not what you wish for a good transpicture. correct me if im wrong, But the whole, "who is good enough trans to be showed and who isnt is pretty much what puts every non-binary or not "trans enough" people down.
people who get told there not "trans enough" there not "a good picture for the trans comunety" so on so.
For me it seams like you ignore that to be a part of the problem like before you wrotte:
"I don't see where the guys who exhibit stereotypically feminine behaviors are getting talked down to. If anything they're the more popular transguys online."
and then you just had a comment right above saying:
"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke."
--------
Quote from: Natkat on December 06, 2012, 11:03:12 AM
For me it seams like you ignore that to be a part of the problem like before you wrotte:
"I don't see where the guys who exhibit stereotypically feminine behaviors are getting talked down to. If anything they're the more popular transguys online."
and then you just had a comment right above saying:
"less" trans people make others think of all of us as a joke."
You need to recheck who said "less trans people make others think of all of us as a joke", because I'm not the one who said that.
I commented on Thomas Beatie's situation as it relates to all of us because he is in the public spotlight (since someone brought him into the conversation). I never said he was "less trans". There is no such thing as being "less trans", so that is just an asinine thing I would never say. However, there is such a thing as being in an extremely unusual situation. Does that make him less of a transman? No, but it makes him a bad representative of transmen as a whole. When one of us gets in the spotlight we are representing ourselves and everyone else in the minds of the public who view the media due to our limited visibility.
I'm not perturbed at all but in the future I'd appreciate not having my words twisted or other people's views placed on me.
No you didn't say it, it just seam you didnt saw it where ever said.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 11:19:12 AM
Does that make him less of a transman? No, but it makes him a bad representative of transmen as a whole.
So transmen who are pregnant are bad representives, and set transpeople in bad spotlights?
So its not okay to but transguys down because there maculine compared and viewed diffrently, but its okay to say to a pregnant trans guy his a bad representative simple for his way of living who is diffrent than what other do?
-
I hope you see my point,
putting people in boxes of "what view us all as good or bad" is what is the biggest cause of transphobia in the trans comunety.
try ask yourself. "how would I feel if someone called me a bad repesentative, a person who where less "right" or "normal" to be showed.
I know we live in a stupid sociaty, who are clumsy, but in the end its not worse than we can say. "people are diffrent, im not the same as this person, my choice are not the same." its not gonna be no matter who we put up as a view point someone will always be diffrent because thats how human is.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 11:19:12 AM
I commented on Thomas Beatie's situation as it relates to all of us because he is in the public spotlight (since someone brought him into the conversation).... No, but it makes him a bad representative of transmen as a whole.
I strongly disagree: Thomas Beatie is pushing boundaries that have never been publicly pushed before. I wish I'd had the courage to do what he did... but instead, I took the coward's way out and chose to live as a 'woman' for 21 years so that I could have my own biological children. I was too frightened of what the public might think of me if I'd transitioned before having them so I put up with horrendous dysphoria for
decades because that seemed 'easier'. I think he's a great representative on many levels - including Civil Rights for trans people - and I'm proud to have him represent me.
I firmly believe that we should all be free to choose what to do with our reproductive rights regardless of our gender identity or presentation. There is no right or wrong way to be a transguy, and Thomas's choices are as valid as anyone else's.
With all due respect, in my opinion any suggestion that he shouldn't be entitled to publicly declare his basic human right to bear his own children is tantamount to telling Rosa Parks to just shut up and get to the back of the bus.
That's
my opinion... take it or leave it. ;)
Quote from: Natkat on December 06, 2012, 11:52:10 AM
So transmen who are pregnant are bad representives, and set transpeople in bad spotlights?
So its not okay to but transguys down because there maculine compared and viewed diffrently, but its okay to say to a pregnant trans guy his a bad representative simple for his way of living who is diffrent than what other do?
In the eyes of the public
YES a pregnant transman is a bad representative for our community. As I stated before, trans people who do want to transition and assimilate into the cis gendered society aren't understood at this point in time. Throwing society a curve ball like Thomas Beatie is a recipe for disaster
when it comes to society understanding and accepting transsexuals as a whole.
You can't say that transmen like Thomas further the cis world's understanding of us. I am not saying Thomas was wrong in his choices. It is his life and he can live it as he sees fit. The fact still remains that visibility of transmen is very limited. When cis people see a transman he is a representative of all of us in the public spotlight. If cis people can't understand a boring binary identified transman like myself (as an example) then how can we expect them to embrace someone who has an even more unusual story? We can't.
Quote from: FTMDiaries on December 06, 2012, 12:25:05 PM
I strongly disagree: Thomas Beatie is pushing boundaries that have never been publicly pushed before.
With all due respect, in my opinion any suggestion that he shouldn't be entitled to publicly declare his basic human right to bear his own children is tantamount to telling Rosa Parks to just shut up and get to the back of the bus.
Yes, Thomas pushed boundaries but the question isn't if he could...the question is if he should. What purpose did him publicly showing his top surgery scars and bulbous pregnant stomach serve? Did it further our cause? Did it increase understanding? Or did he make money doing appearances as a pregnant man that society (for the most part) deemed a freak show?
Be honest about it. Think of how society thought of this. Me? I couldn't care less what he does but he should have done it in private. It is called "milk before meat". As the public is akin to a newborn when it comes to acceptance of transsexual people. As a baby would we shock it's system by introducing meat that it can't digest? No, we would start that baby out on something that will nourish it, boost it's immunity, and prepare it for solid meals. Same with the public. It is easier for them to get to know and accept trans people who are for the most part "vanilla". Once acceptance has been achieved for the core base then you branch out and bring more unusual topics to the table.
This is just common sense folks. It's not what you think is right..or "loud and proud". This is about acceptance and understanding but most importantly in how to achieve it.
I think any sort of challenge to the prescribed gender norms is a good thing, because it challenges people's perceptions and makes them consider things outside of the box.
A pregnant transguy may confuse some people who don't know anything about trans issues, and they may go to conclusions that all trans people are just a bunch of confused people who shouldn't be allowed to transition, but I think as a whole, most people--at least the younger generations who are more likely to change their views--would be challenged in a positive way. And, any person with some grain of intelligence should be able to recognize that Thomas is the only transguy who's been publicized for this and therefore recognize that it probably isn't that common of a thing within the transguy community.
Now, the way he went about it I may not agree with (for the sake of full disclosure--I haven't seen too much of him besides his first documentary), I didn't particularly like the whole reality show feel of it. I think the way it was portrayed on the show was more like a "freak show" (which is why I don't watch shows like Little People Big World and the one with the conjoined twins) instead of a helpful educational program designed to enlighten viewers.
Generally these discussions make me angry because it's a bunch of people worrying about how feminine transmen make all transmen look bad. I don't see that happening here as much, but I've said it 1,000 times. No one is making YOU look bad or threatening how you are seen. Most people I know are clueless about trans* issues as a whole and don't know transmen even exist. I get sick of feminine transmen and GQ people getting thrown under the bus for being who they are. Now, I know that that is not what this thread is about and not what the OP was saying, but that seems to be the general attitude of some of the comments. For the record, I am masculine in many ways. No, I don't like sports and I don't work on cars or any of that BS stereotypical gender role crap, but I don't wear make-up or wear a corset and walk around in glittery heels. So, I know this kind-of stuff isn't directed at me, but it's saddening and sickening that people can be so insecure in their own identities that they feel the need to "call out" other people. Again, I know this is NOT what this thread is about, but I've seen this garbage all over tumblr and youtube.
I'm really starting to hate the online FTM community and I'm honestly not looking forward to going to any support groups because, believe it or not, the "more trans than thou" crap DOES exist which is why the trans enough movement was created. It was created to empower people who aren't a stereotypical male to feel good enough to transition and not feel like crap for being themselves. It is not however, to hate on people who are masculine. In fact, people who aren't get more crap because men are expected to be masculine. Especially transmen because of our history. I really don't see this backlash because form what I've seen masculinity in men is celebrated. Especially in the trans* community.
As far as feminism, it can be problematic in that it often excludes trans women, people of color and anyone who basically isn't a white cisgendered woman. But I do support the ideas behind it. I think we need to acknowledge that women are not treated equally in society in many ways and by supporting those ideas we support equality for everyone. But I do see the flaws within the feminist movement. I know this thread was not to argue about feminism.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 01:13:07 PM
Yes, Thomas pushed boundaries but the question isn't if he could...the question is if he should. What purpose did him publicly showing his top surgery scars and bulbous pregnant stomach serve? Did it further our cause? Did it increase understanding? Or did he make money doing appearances as a pregnant man that society (for the most part) deemed a freak show?
You know, I didn't even know who this was until I saw him mentioned on this very board awhile back. So as for "publicity" I don't think it was all that much. Sure you can still google him and find out but go ahead and go up to a "cis" person on the street and ask if they know who he is. Better yet, ask just if they know even the general story ... "did you see the one about a 'man' getting pregnant and having his own child?" I'd lay odds that they haven't. People know more who Chaz Bono is that the pregnant guy and that's only because Chaz's parents were/are famous. Celebrities garner a lot more attention than some one-off, no name guy who does one thing. Having trans people as characters on tv shows gets more attention. People have really short memories these days as well. Something may be out and hot for 5 minutes and then it's forgotten a week later.
So this fear that people like Thomas are making it bad for you is just that, a fear and not really reality. It's akin to saying something like a flaming gay guy makes all gay guys look bad (and gay is a lot more well-known to the general population than trans). It's also similar to the fear of having your T taken away because there might be an andro or not 100% male identified person who wants to take it.
What I personally fear more is the trans community itself because it can not unite 100% even on the most simple, basic thing (we're all trans).
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 01:13:07 PMIf cis people can't understand a boring binary identified transman like myself (as an example) then how can we expect them to embrace someone who has an even more unusual story? We can't.
See like... I agree with LearnedHand on this one. Clueless cis people DO understand normal boring binary trans-men, because they would see and experience them as cis-men, which is a thing they can grasp and understand. In general, people tend to feel more outrage towards trans people going to the feminine side of the spectrum. Im guessing that this is a direct result of it bring 'preferred' by our society to be male. As a passing binary trans guy, I feel like a huge brunt of societal backlash is avoided.
This is one of the reasons that Truscum, or whatever they call themselves bother me. They disregard other people in the gender spectrum, claiming they aren't trans, because they do not fit into the binary. The FTM community, especially on tumblr, is just horrible.
All in all, I dont think there is that much backlash to the ideal transman being as masculine as they want to be, its just this prevalent attitude in the community that some 'stereotypical' trans men dont want to actually associate themselves with other trans people, they want to be seen as cismale, 'but diagnosed with ->-bleeped-<-,', thereby throwing other trans people (people who dont fit into the binary) under the bus to create that distinction. It just creates a lot of tension.
I shouldn't even get into this truscum thing, its a whole bag of worms for another discussion, but I recently read a couple blogs and it seemed related.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 06, 2012, 01:49:01 PM
You know, I didn't even know who this was until I saw him mentioned on this very board awhile back. So as for "publicity" I don't think it was all that much.
Are you in the USA? Just curious because he was a big deal here for awhile. On Oprah and ended up being fodder for late night talk show hosts. I seen him just a few weeks ago on tv talking about having his third child and his divorce from his first wife. He is a prevalent voice of the community.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 06, 2012, 01:49:01 PM
People know more who Chaz Bono is that the pregnant guy and that's only because Chaz's parents were/are famous.
What I personally fear more is the trans community itself because it can not unite 100% even on the most simple, basic thing (we're all trans).
Chaz is an excellent spokesman for the trans community and he has handled everything publicly with a grace that not many would be able to. I won't lie that I have been slightly annoyed in the past that his chest scars were made public but the only photo I seen of them was taken by someone peeking over the fence of "Dancing with the Stars" to take it. Why do I find that annoying? I don't want it to be an identifier for transmen. Most of us do end up with double incision scars.
I've never said we aren't all trans. I've never said that I or any binary identifying transman is better than a feminine transman. This was not what this thread was intended to be but got twisted into something else.
This thread was supposed to be about masculine transmen and our increasingly diminishing visibility within the community. This thread was intended to show my opinion that the "Trans Enough" movement isn't necessary and divides more than anything else. That was all and I think on a few occasions there has been an attempt to bait me into saying something that would later be regretful and at least one attempt to put words in my mouth.
Again and for the last time. I don't see masculine as more deserving of anything. If any of you really knew me you'd see that I'm one of the most accepting individuals there is. Simply because I don't care what someone does as long as it doesn't effect me.
Im not saying that any of us, or you OP, are part of this ridiculous movement, I just got carried away talking about it haha.
Everyone here at Susan's come off as inclusive and down to earth.
I think that perhaps more masculine trans men aren't being represented because a lot of them sort of assimilate into society well, not for lack of them existing. Androgyny is just more obvious, I think a lot of men who are passing and masculine enough to blend in well just don't stay active in the community, and really, why should they?
Quote from: AscendantDevon on December 06, 2012, 02:06:01 PM
See like... I agree with LearnedHand on this one. Clueless cis people DO understand normal boring binary trans-men, because they would see and experience them as cis-men, which is a thing they can grasp and understand.
This is one of the reasons that Truscum, or whatever they call themselves bother me. They disregard other people in the gender spectrum, claiming they aren't trans, because they do not fit into the binary. The FTM community, especially on tumblr, is just horrible.
Cis folks do not understand boring binary transmen. How do I know this? From personal experience. I once drove 31 hours in two days from Colorado back to North Carolina with nothing more than gas money in my pocket and a 30 gallon bag of clothes in the backseat. Why? Because a few cis men who had been my close friends for over a year had threatened to "take me out" once I was outed to them by my ex. Maybe that is why I am so passionate about the struggle for acceptance. I know what the consequences of hate and ignorance. I'm lucky that a third friend went behind their back and told me what was going on or I would have been a statistic.
I don't know much about "Truscum" but from what I have seen it's what I would call "->-bleeped-<- trolls". It looks like guys who want to stir the pot to amuse themselves. They're so far out of the loop that I don't take them seriously. Don't have to worry about them becoming a voice in the trans community either because they wouldn't dare stand up and out themselves as trans. I say just ignore them, let them do their thing, and they will fade into obscurity soon enough.
Quote from: AscendantDevon on December 06, 2012, 02:23:24 PM
I think a lot of men who are passing and masculine enough to blend in well just don't stay active in the community, and really, why should they?
That depends...I am basically stealth. I can count on one hand people who know about me (that aren't related to me of course). Why should I bother to get back into the community after living full time for 14 years? It's a personal decision but I think I have a responsibility to help out the community and that is what I plan to do. Kinda hard now with where I live but in a few years I am relocating to a city. I'm not sure if I want to go to College and be a gender therapist or what I'm going to end up doing but it will involve the community.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PM
Are you in the USA? Just curious because he was a big deal here for awhile. On Oprah and ended up being fodder for late night talk show hosts. I seen him just a few weeks ago on tv talking about having his third child and his divorce from his first wife. He is a prevalent voice of the community.
Yeah I'm in the US. Could be that I just don't give a sh*t about stuff like Oprah and tabloids and late night talk shows. I'm not the only one who is clueless about that sort of thing. And if he's a prevalent "voice of the community" I'd probably known even less about him since I'm pretty put off by the "community" as well.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PM
Chaz is an excellent spokesman for the trans community and he has handled everything publicly with a grace that not many would be able to. I won't lie that I have been slightly annoyed in the past that his chest scars were made public but the only photo I seen of them was taken by someone peeking over the fence of "Dancing with the Stars" to take it. Why do I find that annoying? I don't want it to be an identifier for transmen. Most of us do end up with double incision scars.
There's been a few times I've been standing in line at checkouts when Chaz has been on the tabloids and I've heard really awful comments from "cis" people who have no clue at all. Comments like, "That's just going against god and nature!", "She's destroyed her body and her life.", "That's just sick ... she's mentally ill.". Seriously, I've heard all that. So if you think that Chaz is being a good spokesperson, you don't know what a large segment of society is really thinking of him (they refused to even call him male a lot of times). The "community" may like him, but the larger world is seeing something different. This is all off track and really besides the point though. General society is not very accepting of trans-anything. They don't even like people who just push gender boundaries, let along modify their bodies. It's male or female, that's it. We've all got a long, long way to go on that front. The point is, why can't we just have some unity within the trans community? Someone else mentioned tumblr and I have to say, the "community" on tumblr is like a festering wound. It's horrible what people say to other people over there.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PM
I've never said we aren't all trans. I've never said that I or any binary identifying transman is better than a feminine transman. This was not what this thread was intended to be but got twisted into something else.
This thread was supposed to be about masculine transmen and our increasingly diminishing visibility within the community. This thread was intended to show my opinion that the "Trans Enough" movement isn't necessary and divides more than anything else. That was all and I think on a few occasions there has been an attempt to bait me into saying something that would later be regretful and at least one attempt to put words in my mouth.
Threads often take on a life of their own and people interpret info differently or put their spin on things. It happens. Some of the resulting discussions can be quite good though and as far as threads go, this ain't nothing compared to some of the one's I've been involved in where there seemed to be actual hate and discrimination going on, volatile emotions and topics, etc. (and they're subsequently locked).
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PM
Again and for the last time. I don't see masculine as more deserving of anything. If any of you really knew me you'd see that I'm one of the most accepting individuals there is. Simply because I don't care what someone does as long as it doesn't effect me.
You're accepting ... and you don't care what someone does but there's a qualifier, "as long as it doesn't effect me". Well, just about everything in life that someone does has the potential to effect other people. And I think where people are getting heated is that they're saying femme trans guys DO effect them. Non-binaries/genderqueers/andros DO effect them because they're trying so hard to just be male/masculine and they other people are off wearing tutus (I'm exaggerating ;) ) and make up and just ruining/making a joke of trans. I'm not saying you're like this, Simon nor am I singling out anyone on this this thread or board. All I'm saying is there's an element of this in the larger "community". And it seems that people just can not set their differences, issues, fears, etc. aside and come to agreements on how all trans people can gain better equality in society and the larger world. People shouldn't have to be fearful of being "found out" if they're stealth, just like people shouldn't have to be fearful of being gay in society. No matter how one chooses to express themselves they should have basic rights and shouldn't have to fear for their safety, their reputation, etc. We, as a small group here, could agree on something like that, but how do we get the larger "community" with all its different factions on board with that. A lot of the responses here are theories on why people act how they do, or people's own experiences.
Quote from: AscendantDevon on December 06, 2012, 02:06:01 PM
All in all, I dont think there is that much backlash to the ideal transman being as masculine as they want to be, its just this prevalent attitude in the community that some 'stereotypical' trans men don't want to actually associate themselves with other trans people, they want to be seen as cismale, 'but diagnosed with ->-bleeped-<-,', thereby throwing other trans people (people who dont fit into the binary) under the bus to create that distinction. It just creates a lot of tension.
I kind of agree with this (if you're referring to backlash in the "community" ... In larger society and the "cis" world it's another story). With topics like this, it all kind of boils down to other people's perceptions and the way other people want to identify themselves and consequent reactions to that. Unfortunately, a lot of people get thrown under the metaphorical bus for a lot of reasons. I think that's one of those human nature things. If you've got issues/fears/etc. the natural reaction is to lash out or to take the microscope off of you and put it on someone else.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:33:45 PM
Cis folks do not understand boring binary transmen. How do I know this? From personal experience. I once drove 31 hours in two days from Colorado back to North Carolina with nothing more than gas money in my pocket and a 30 gallon bag of clothes in the backseat. Why? Because a few cis men who had been my close friends for over a year had threatened to "take me out" once I was outed to them by my ex. Maybe that is why I am so passionate about the struggle for acceptance. I know what the consequences of hate and ignorance. I'm lucky that a third friend went behind their back and told me what was going on or I would have been a statistic.
You posted this as I was going on with my last response. But basically you DO know what those segments of society think about trans people (like the people I hear talking in the supermarket line when seeing Chaz on a tabloid). That's what I mean when I say we've got a long way to go. People who you think are your good friends even turn out to be the type who would literally kill someone who is different. That's a serious problem. And that has everything to do with human rights – not even gender stuff, just plain human rights.
Not everyone can become a spokesperson and fight for rights like that, so I applaud you for wanting to.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 06, 2012, 02:53:17 PM
you DO know what those segments of society think about trans people (like the people I hear talking in the supermarket line when seeing Chaz on a tabloid). That's what I mean when I say we've got a long way to go.
Not everyone can become a spokesperson and fight for rights like that, so I applaud you for wanting to.
Yes, we have a very long way to go and that is why I stand beside my "milk before meat" stance when it comes to public visibility of transsexual people. Get the cis world use to those of us who are more akin to them before throwing someone in who is completely out in left field to most people.
Oh, I don't want to be a spokesman. I would like to be someone who can assist others in becoming the person they want to be and that is why I'm considering going back to College to be a gender therapist. I will remain stealth for the most part. I'm not ashamed of being trans and if asked in a respectful way I never deny it. I just don't see the need to let it be known for no reason.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 01:13:07 PM
In the eyes of the public YES a pregnant transman is a bad representative for our community. As I stated before, trans people who do want to transition and assimilate into the cis gendered society aren't understood at this point in time. Throwing society a curve ball like Thomas Beatie is a recipe for disaster when it comes to society understanding and accepting transsexuals as a whole.
I disagree. Thomas Beatie is showing people that biological sex and gender identity are not necessarily interlinked and not to be confused for one another, and dismantling the cissexist narrative "born in the wrong body", which in the long run is beneficial to
all trans people. Because when cis people hear that old "I was born in the wrong body" trope, it doesn't make them understand and respect trans people as equal - it makes them think "there's something wrong with being trans, look they're saying it themselves", which fosters transphobia as being seen as wrong is being seen as "lesser" - lesser citizens, lesser worthy of respect and civil rights and safety, lesser human. Furthermore it validates and reinforces the pathologization of ->-bleeped-<-, with all the gatekeeping and abuse at the hands of medical and/or legal authorities we're all familiar with.
And honestly, if the price to pay for furthering understanding and acceptance of ->-bleeped-<- is stepping on a few toes, I think it's well worth it. It's sort of like outing closeted gay homophobes - they are tragicly miserable and can't be blamed for being that way, and outing them often ruin their carreers and personal lives, but ultimately putting the needs of the community above those of select individuals is the right thing to do.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:08:46 PMChaz is an excellent spokesman for the trans community and he has handled everything publicly with a grace that not many would be able to.
Chaz Bono, on the other hand, is a misogynistic jerk who basks in his newfound male privilege and a terrible spokeperson for the community. If anything he's just reinforcing the "theory" touted by some pseudo-feminists that transmen are just really self-hating lesbians full of internalized sexism.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 02:33:45 PM
Cis folks do not understand boring binary transmen. How do I know this? From personal experience. I once drove 31 hours in two days from Colorado back to North Carolina with nothing more than gas money in my pocket and a 30 gallon bag of clothes in the backseat. Why? Because a few cis men who had been my close friends for over a year had threatened to "take me out" once I was outed to them by my ex. Maybe that is why I am so passionate about the struggle for acceptance. I know what the consequences of hate and ignorance. I'm lucky that a third friend went behind their back and told me what was going on or I would have been a statistic.
I am sorry for your experience but this dosen't mean EVERY cis person Dont understand transgenders binary or not.
there is some cisgenders who dont get the trans thing no matter what. and then there is someone who is just fine.
While being at my last school I didnt mention I where trans in second semester, I came out to a few pretty randomly like.. "oh I still cant do this, I had the surgery, you know I where actually born a girl bla bla"
there reactiong where something like.. "aha..." and then kept everything as it where nothing, and never cared since Best reaction I have got, It dosent mean I havent experience bad reactions either, but not all of them had been bad.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 01:13:07 PM
Yes, Thomas pushed boundaries but the question isn't if he could...the question is if he should. What purpose did him publicly showing his top surgery scars and bulbous pregnant stomach serve? Did it further our cause? Did it increase understanding? Or did he make money doing appearances as a pregnant man that society (for the most part) deemed a freak show?
Now Speaking of media, I learned alot the last couple of years.
One is how many transfolks who are in the media never get money for it but awareness, and this can be a sacrifising prosses for themself, or people they care about.
Another thing is, Even if you go to the media and think your to be "a good exemple for the trans comunety"
you never know how the media will turn out. I seen transpeople who got to the media for some caises and they have turned everything they said into having an almost opposite shocking meaning. If it wasnt because I knew them personally, and that this was not how they hoped it would come out, I might had been chocked as well.
--------
Quote from: Sia on December 06, 2012, 04:22:38 PM
I disagree. Thomas Beatie is showing people that biological sex and gender identity are not necessarily interlinked and not to be confused for one another, and dismantling the cissexist narrative "born in the wrong body", which in the long run is beneficial to all trans people. Because when cis people hear that old "I was born in the wrong body" trope, it doesn't make them understand and respect trans people as equal - it makes them think "there's something wrong with being trans, look they're saying it themselves", which fosters transphobia as being seen as wrong is being seen as "lesser" - lesser citizens, lesser worthy of respect and civil rights and safety, lesser human.
Well, it is all in perspective. I am not going to say your beliefs are incorrect. I don't know how you identify but if I had to put a direct label on myself (never have before) I'd be a binary identified heterosexual transman. I do feel as if I was born in the wrong body and I am taking drastic steps to change my body because of it.
I basically feel like a man who had the unfortunate experience of being born with too much fat on my chest and with no penis. I don't identify at all with women. I know little to nothing about feminism. I don't understand women...because I never was one.
I
do respect women. I have never laid a hand on a woman in anger. I believe a woman can be the head of the home. My gf is the bread winner in our home. I listen to her. She has no issue with letting me know when I get "big head macho syndrome". She won't put up with it, lol.
Where would that put me then? Am I a misogynist because I can't identify with her thoughts or feelings?
Quote from: Sia on December 06, 2012, 04:22:38 PM
Chaz Bono, on the other hand, is a misogynistic jerk who basks in his newfound male privilege and a terrible spokeperson for the community. If anything he's just reinforcing the "theory" touted by some pseudo-feminists that transmen are just really self-hating lesbians full of internalized sexism.
Chaz is a man's man. I agree with a lot of what he says. There are those of us who believe we are correcting a birth defect. There are those of us who don't understand women. It's not putting women down and I think that is what you are failing to realize. He may have spent a good chunk of his adult life living as a lesbian because he had no choice. Maybe it was fear of having no choice than to be in the public eye during transition. I can't imagine how hard that has to be to have absolutely no choice because of who your parents are.
I don't think it is fair to label him as a "misogynistic jerk". Why would you say that? Because he doesn't identify as you do? You know the sad part? I sincerely doubt anyone on here would cause a stink about you saying that about him because he's a masculine man. If I was to say (this is for an example..nobody flip out) that Thomas Beatie was a confused butch lesbian baby factory...you guys would be coming at me with virtual pitchforks.
Double standard much?
Well I agree with Simon re: Chaz. I don't feel it is fair to judge someone I don't know. Also it is a bit easy to take remarks out of context. He does conferences like Gender Odyssey which is not exactly a rigidly binary conference.
OTOH, it would easier for society to deal with those who are more akin to cis people but I don't think it is fair to leave non binaries in the dust either. I am somewhat non-binary and I hope to pass and all that, but I don't mind sort of saying f-it to various stereotypes either.
--Jay
Quote from: Sia on December 06, 2012, 04:22:38 PM
Chaz Bono, on the other hand, is a misogynistic jerk who basks in his newfound male privilege and a terrible spokeperson for the community. If anything he's just reinforcing the "theory" touted by some pseudo-feminists that transmen are just really self-hating lesbians full of internalized sexism.
I think a major problem is misunderstanding that misogynist = a man who hates women. It does not = a masculine man. Two different things. Can someone be a masculine man and a misogynist? Of course. The two often go hand in hand but misogyny is not a physical characteristic. It's not a "lifestyle choice" or a hobby. It's a guy who hates all women and usually makes no secret of that. Calling a trans man a misogynist just because he's masculine is asinine.
i'm totally lost here, But its getting pretty far off topic.
Its really not about whos better or worse to the trans comunety, its irrevant for the topic and a matter of opinion.
Quote from: Natkat on December 06, 2012, 06:14:25 PM
i'm totally lost here, But its getting pretty far off topic.
Its really not about whos better or worse to the trans comunety, its irrevant for the topic and a matter of opinion.
Haha, it's been off topic more than it's been on.
There's always Buck Angel...I feel like he's a jerk (said some racist, cissexist, classist, etc things). Plus, super visible guy and a large portion of trans men I know like him.
Quote from: Nygeel on December 06, 2012, 09:37:45 PM
There's always Buck Angel...I feel like he's a jerk (said some racist, cissexist, classist, etc things). Plus, super visible guy and a large portion of trans men I know like him.
I don't think a porn star showing his kibbles n' bits all up on the interwebs is a good spokesman for the transman community, lol.
Quote from: Simon on December 06, 2012, 09:47:19 PM
I don't think a porn star showing his kibbles n' bits all up on the interwebs is a good spokesman for the transman community, lol.
I don't think a pornstar would be a good spokesperson for any community, unless it was some form of sex circle.
One thing I think we all need to think about in our struggles as trans men and women is that this struggle without gender identity is going on at all stages of human development from young children to preteens to teenagers to young adults to mature adults to seniors. That at each stage of development our challenges are different and the degree to which our bodies will adapt and can be changed to meet our gender identity to the extend that we will blend into either the male or female population and go unnoticed.
We all come to terms with fact that our gender identity does not match our biological body at different ages and the baggage we carry of trying to live lives that match our physical body is also different.
I knew that I was somehow different for a long time, that somehow I identified with being female more than male, but I was alone in my isolation and having been born in the middle 1940s it was very intimidating for anyone who had a male body to start behaving like a female in the rural Dakotas. It was very emotionally difficult for me to even accumulate a female wardrobe even in private. I was 53 years old and found Susan.org and living alone for the first time in nearly 30 years that I could declare to myself within the privacy of my home that I was a female and begin living as a woman at home. Now I dress openly female in both private and public within a family and living off of Social Security, I will never be able to totally pass as a women because of my over 50 years of living as a male and a life time of living with male hormones.
Because most of my life has been spent living under a male identity all of my job records, educational records, medical records, government records, medical records, are stamped with the male gender identification. I happen to like the female form of my name Michael, which is Michelle, so I have become Michelle (Mike) on Facebook and can even pronounce Michael as Mishelle. Myche, Michelle, Myshelle, Michael, can all become my alias and I can identify myself as a transgender female so as to blend my past with my present. Most of this is because most of my past has disappeared and all people where I am at see me presenting as a female. I may not blend, but as a senior citizen, I find that as far as the rest of the world cares I am vanishing in most but not all cases.
My testimony to transgenders younger than me is that you can live to be a senior citizen and not live in fear of your life and that the longer you wait to become who you truly are the more baggage you carry and the harder it is for you to truly blend in as either male or female. As a senior you also realize that as you become less and less able to defend yourself physically you face the danger of being physically assaulted just because you are old so that living as a transgender hardly poses more of a threat.
Those transgenders who start their transformations younger than when I did have to worry about how they are going to survive and support themselves while living their gender identity. They also have more struggles living with worrying about being outed and what that might mean. Teenagers have the most opportunity to have their bodies adapt to match their gender identities but face living with having natural children of their own unless they have their sperm or eggs banked. But with their spouses will probably have to come out as transgenders in order to have natural children using these banked sperm or eggs.
What I am basically saying is that because of the vast differences of our transgender lives we need to not be judgemental of each other and the choices we make. We are all part of the same struggle which is even more complicated by the people we a sexually attracted to and the fact that many of us have grown children who learned later in life that we, their parents, were transgender and this makes for us blending our lives more difficult.
Some of us have more and some of us have less lives to blend between our male and female existence. Why should we show as much intolerance among us, as is shown towards us, by many in the straight world? We shouldn't!!! We have to grant others the tolerance we wish for ourselves and remember that how others live and think is not a reflection upon ourselves.
Respectability politics is awful, no good, and not helping. On the scale of how cis society sees us, because I'm white and pretty much a gender-conforming boring binary dude, I'd be at the level known as "very respectable/almost as good as a cis person". I'm not fighting for people like me, who get the LEAST grief, I'm fighting for those who aren't considered to be "good" trans* people.
So let's not be nasty about people who chose to have children whilst not pretending to be cis (to do so is eugenicist, honestly) or who aren't obsessed with assimilation and normalcy.
I don't know where some of you got the idea that I was calling Chaz Bono a misogynist because he's a masculine straight man, but it has nothing to do with it. I called him misogynist because he said misogynist things, period. I've seen cissexism and sexism (towards both genders and/or sexes) expressed by people of all combinations of birth sex, gender identity, gender presentation and sexuality, and I always call them out on it when I have the chance. I don't care who someone is or looks like, I just have a big mouth and non-existent tolerance threshold to BS - the only category of people I don't like are bigots, and bigotry doesn't discriminate when it comes to choosing its hosts.
On that subject, since someone brought up Buck Angel, regardless of his job I agree that he's just as bad a poster child for FTMs even though his ideas on transness are radically opposed to Chaz's. Chaz Bono saying that all men who have breasts would want them off or all trans people feel like they are in the wrong body is just as bad as Buck Angel berating trans men who have bottom surgery or want to be stealth. We just don't need "role models" who go around saying their personal experience of or opinions on ->-bleeped-<- are the Only/Valid/Good ones, that's it.
Simon, I also never said that being masculine or not understanding women makes you a misogynist - hell, I'm more on the masculine side and I'm far from understanding them completely either! But there's a world of difference between saying "I'm a man so I don't understand women" and saying "I'm a man so I have trouble tolerating women and the way they gossip and banter" like Chaz did. If someone said "I'm white so I have trouble tolerating black people and the way they all ____", anyone would agree that it is racist.
I adressed the subject of public role models only because it was the current topic of discussion in this thread, that's all. I didn't and won't comment on masculinity being frowned amongst the trans men's community because I've never personally saw it (which is in no way proof that it doesn't exist) and am no expert on what the online community thinks - I avoid Youtube and Tumblr like the plague.
Chaz is a man's man // basks in his newfound male privilege
Nope. He's fat, obese really, kinda ugly on top of it, has a very unpleasant personality, he's highly self-centered and not a team player. You know that scene in Animal House where they keep directing Kent to the loser/dork group sitting on that couch? Chaz would be sitting on that couch with Mohammet, Jugdish, Sidney and Clayton. And you know ... "Grab a seat and make yourselves at home. Don't be shy about helping yourselves to punch and cookies." And I'm sure Chaz can pound the cookies down, no doubt about that.
That's Chaz.
As a man he's pretty much the kind of guy that's not 'a man's man' but the eternal excluded one who's the butt of every joke and prank.
How can I say that? Easy, I watched Dancing with the Stars. And what I saw pointed to serious defects in the exactly the stuff that make 'men's men' what they are. You know how 'when the going gets tough, the tough get going' (a man's man commandment if there ever was one), addresses one of the critical components of man's mandom, ie. how you act under pressure. How you stand up when things get a lot harder is considered essential to masculinity by other males - a true measure of your manhood. And when things got tough for Chaz, when it was pushing the boundaries of his physical abilities (both in terms of coordination as well as strength/stamina - and let's face it, that's not a lot to begin with) did he 'MAN UP'? Nope, he whined. He sniveled. He blamed other things rather than taking the responsibility himself.
And we got to see a lot of it, because like Bristol Palin he somehow keep on getting votes long, LONG past the point where based on pure performance he should have been allowed to continue on. And that made it even worse (as it did for Bristol too) because he was way out of his league, and in way over his head. He did not come off looking good at all, he came off as weak. Actually way beyond that. If I took a bunch of the manliest guys I know (and I do know a few) and asked them, I bet to a man they'd all pick Shawn Johnson as far more of a man's man than Chaz could - or would - ever be. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
And, in some of the ways he blamed other things for not doing well he sent up huge red flags that he would never abide by another man's man commandment. That is, if your looking for someone who's got your back, you are not looking at him. He's a 'cut and run' type, not a 'no one left behind' guy. And that's a fatal error.
Wow, check out all the fat-shaming. Doesn't anybody know it's possible to call someone on their foolishness WITHOUT pig jokes?
A terrible celebrity who happens to be fat (or otherwise different) should just be called unpleasant based on their behaviour. Keep looks out of it, OK? I'm a fat person and sick of thin people bringing size into everything.
Quote from: tekla on December 07, 2012, 02:08:05 PM
Chaz is a man's man // basks in his newfound male privilege
Nope. He's fat, obese really, kinda ugly on top of it, has a very unpleasant personality, he's highly self-centered and not a team player. You know that scene in Animal House where they keep directing Kent to the loser/dork group sitting on that couch? Chaz would be sitting on that couch with Mohammet, Jugdish, Sidney and Clayton. And you know ... "Grab a seat and make yourselves at home. Don't be shy about helping yourselves to punch and cookies." And I'm sure Chaz can pound the cookies down, no doubt about that.
Well, I didn't watch "Dancing with the Stars" to be honest with you. It's not my thing to watch has been's (or never was) pseudo celebs prance around a stage. I can't comment on his actions on the show because I never watched it. I do agree with him on a lot of interviews I have read and that is what I was basing my judgment of his character on.
He's obese and ugly? Well, he is no model...that's for sure but I don't think it is a good thing to measure a man by the size of his gut. Attacking someone's character (public or not) by their weight is immature and shows a lack of sound judgment.
Quote from: Simon on December 07, 2012, 03:02:51 PM
Well, I didn't watch "Dancing with the Stars" to be honest with you. It's not my thing to watch has been's (or never was) pseudo celebs prance around a stage. I can't comment on his actions on the show because I never watched it. I do agree with him on a lot of interviews I have read and that is what I was basing my judgment of his character on.
He's obese and ugly? Well, he is no model...that's for sure but I don't think it is a good thing to measure a man by the size of his gut. Attacking someone's character (public or not) by their weight is immature and shows a lack of sound judgment.
Yes, this. Personally, I think Chaz Bono is overrated and shouldn't be treated as a spokesperson on gender, especially since he has said some very sexist and otherwise problematic things in the past. However, sizeism/fat-hatred is bigotry pure and simple, and totally unacceptable.
If a thin celebrity guy does something screwed up, he's just an unpleasant person. If we start talking about a fat person then suddenly they're a bad FAT person, with extra super-size emphasis on the part where it's suddenly justifiable to call them a pig or whale. That's not how it's meant to work, size doesn't make someone a better or worse person.
Quote from: Green_Tony on December 07, 2012, 03:33:00 PM
Yes, this. Personally, I think Chaz Bono is overrated and shouldn't be treated as a spokesperson on gender, especially since he has said some very sexist and otherwise problematic things in the past. However, sizeism/fat-hatred is bigotry pure and simple, and totally unacceptable.
If a thin celebrity guy does something screwed up, he's just an unpleasant person. If we start talking about a fat person then suddenly they're a bad FAT person, with extra super-size emphasis on the part where it's suddenly justifiable to call them a pig or whale. That's not how it's meant to work, size doesn't make someone a better or worse person.
In general society's eyes (cause lets face it, general society is a vanity whore) Chaz is obese and "ugly". As Tekla pointed out he's the type of guy that would be the "eternal excluded one who's the butt of every joke and prank". The "fat kid" always gets picked on. If you're not at least average or good looking, that makes it even worse. Not saying it's right at all because personally I feel it's not, but a lot of people out there never left the playground and continue into adulthood putting people down for not looking up to society's vain expectations. It's just a sad reality.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 08, 2012, 02:29:13 PM
a lot of people out there never left the playground and continue into adulthood putting people down for not looking up to society's vain expectations. It's just a sad reality.
You're right, people tend to judge others right away by what flesh they see. As trans folks we get that ALL the time when it comes to passing. I've also noticed that trans folks can be very judgmental to each other. Not just based on beliefs but usually it is more about appearances. MTF's who pass for cis females get a lot of praise. Same goes with FTM's who are what society would deem as handsome.
As much as trans people like to claim we are open minded and see people for who they are instead of what they are, we still sometimes fall into society's traps of what is attractive or not. I think it is extremely hard as a transsexual not to judge others since we spend so much time placing judgment on our own physical selves.
Not saying it is right, but it is common place. It is something that all of us could mindfully check ourselves on. After all, we don't like being judged by others on our shortcomings so we shouldn't do it to others either.
Chaz Bono was born a public and not a private person. Both of his parents Sonny and Cher were very public people to my generation. When Chaz was just a child he was a very public person to my generation who listened to and sang his parents music and watched their television show every week faithfully. Because of this Chaz was thrown into the public light. If he tried to keep his gender changes private the gossip magazines could well have drug him out into the public just because they could make a buck on his story. We are who we are. Chaz is who he is. He is having to deal with very private changes in public and he went courageously on Dancing with the Stars and made himself public warts and all. He did not hide or create a false public image, he was himself. He could have put on an act. Chaz was kept on Dancing with the Stars by the public and not because of anything he did. He was publicly transgender and he was accepted by the public and gives the rest of us hope that we as transgenders will also be accepted by the public even though we are not perfect.
This is where Chaz showed he was a real man, and not just a fake bully like some men are. Chaz was an imperfect man who was proud of himself and willing to face public humiliation and rejection. He probably feared this as many of us other transgenders do. But it didn't happen. Yes Chaz was a lousy dancer and the public could have rejected him without a second thought and the public would not have been considered bigoted against transgenders. But for all of the things Chaz wasn't, he was accepted as a person. This was great news for all of us transgenders. Chaz was not alone in being accepted by the public and stayed on the show longer than their poor dancing warranted it, there were many others.
In our own ways each of is a spokesperson for the GLBTQ community in how we carry out our own struggles to be our true selves despite all of our many imperfections. There are many kinds of men and there many kinds of women. Chaz is just as much a man as any other man. Many men display his personality traits and many men share his looks. Just as there many kinds of women and not all of us are pretty Barbi dolls, but we are still women despite anybody else's opinion.
My struggles in being a woman have a lot to do with making my own choices about who I am as a woman and what I really like, and not trying to be who I should be and what others consider acceptable. To much of my life have I lived trying to please others and be the person in many cases a male that others expected. I gave up who I was to be who I should be only to find out I couldn't be that person and still live with myself. Now I am trying to be who I am, and its hard because in many cases I really don't know what I do like and how I really feel.
Chaz showed me that I didn't have to be perfect to be accepted. And while a lot of people may not like who I am and despise me for it, their feelings belong to them and their feelings are not as life threatening as I thought them to be.
And yes it is as hard to be a man as it is to be a woman in our society. In my male role I was expected to fix everything, endure extreme weather, hide my fear of heights by swearing under my breath while I was high up on the scaffolding, face off against bigger and stronger and more coordinated males with out being pummeled, and consume large quantities of booze, brag about things I never did including my sexual conquests which I never had, and take pride and pleasure in being male.
Because I am really a woman, I felt like I was a dreadful failure even in my successes and my escapes from really messing up my life. In reality I probably broke even which I have no pride in only relief. As a woman I can attempt most of the things I did in my male role and because I am no longer expected to succeed, I can congratulate myself on my successes and my near misses with disaster.
I am thankful that Chaz has the courage to do what he is doing to help each on of us gain acceptance in our communities. I am thankful that he is not a perfect male, because he reminds me that I do not have to be a perfect female. I am sure that as Chaz lives out his days he will be all the man he needs to be.
Yeah however he acted on the show (don't know; haven't seen it), Chaz had to have some kind of balls to join a dancing competition at his size. He had to know he would be ridiculed.
And I'm sure we've all said the wrong things sometimes, even just joking around. Most of us aren't so PC 24/7. Talking about T effects and such, he may have just chosen some unfortunate wording to describe his feeling. He's not the best spokesperson in the world, but he's not that bad.
It's not some random deal. American men rank physical fitness very highly. In order to be part of the group you have to keep up. Most mens activites with other men are physically based and often competitive at that.
Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2012, 03:18:39 PM
It's not some random deal. American men rank physical fitness very highly. In order to be part of the group you have to keep up. Most mens activites with other men are physically based and often competitive at that.
I think you have a distorted view of masculinity. I doubt you have such a distorted view of femininity. If I was to say a woman who doesn't wear make up, high heels, have long hair, and conform to what media dictates a woman should be isn't going to be part of the group then you would say I am wrong. There are all types of women and men, correct?
I am starting to weight lift because it makes me feel good about myself. However, I know transmen who would rather not workout and would prefer to shop, watch stereotypical female oriented films, etc. They are still men and don't deserve to be ridiculed for that.