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Quote from: muuu on December 15, 2012, 04:14:34 PM
So, isn't it a pretty bad idea to meet family and others while you're transitioning? Because those relationships can never work out after it's "done" (passing and full-time).
Excuse me? Me and my family have a fantastic relationship with me as a girl. You need to stop projecting negativity onto others. If you think it's fair to abandon YOUR family because YOU don't trust anybody, then fine. But you're borderline insulting ME and MY family by implying that just because I'm trans, then we are unfit to love each other.
Your problem is YOU! You don't give people enough credit. That's not their problem, it's YOURS.
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I may be wrong but it sounds like you do not even want to give them a chance,it sounds like your mom is willing to see you through it and you are the rejecting her. How do you know that she would not be the best one to help you through it if you never even try?
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Yeah, they *never* work out? That seems remarkably pessimistic. (I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that you at least don't mean spouses, because that would be kinda ridiculous. I absolutely do see my wife as a woman now, though, and I was there for every minute of transition and every milestone.)
For the record, my wife's parents wanted to be there for her during transition because she's their *daughter,* and they love her, and wanted to help however they could with the tough times in her life. Not to mention that they'd miss her if she vanished for a year! And they're actually both a lot better with her now than ever before - neither side really knew how to relate when she was a boy*, is my guess. Her sisters ditto.
Obviously I don't know anything about your mother either, but it does sound like this is you projecting...
*she considers herself to have truly been a boy, for a while. This is not in any way meant to reflect on how any other trans person defines their experience.
Quote from: muuu on December 15, 2012, 05:42:15 PM
Mmh...
My point is... Why would I want to expose her for a gradual change? It'd only make it harder for her to see change.
It should be way better to cut off contact completely for a year... And then start over. I think it'd be way easier for everyone to make a new image of you that way.
Like, her view of me seems to be sooo wrong. She doesn't even seem to realize that I'm a bit depressed or that I've ever had an ED (and I really wasn't that good at hiding my ED... I'd use 1-2 hours to each one sandwich and try to hide and throw food so I wouldn't have to eat it. And that went on my whole life, so it shouldn't have been that hard to pick up. She even fking gave me tips when I had to weight myself at the doctors, telling me to drink A LOT of water so that I'd have some extra weight).
She seems to think I'm just a guy wanting to be a girl without any problems at all. Because well, I've come out, then there's nothing else that might bother me. I guess Because I'm still a guy I shouldn't be worried about my body or anything else.
Like yeah, I have no idea what she actually thinks at all. I mean, she must've created an image of me where I'm all positive somehow, I guess because she's had her own problems to deal with. Maybe I'm just being paranoid about it, but I really don't see how things could work out if I continued seeing my family.
I don't understand where the above poster drew issue but I think I understand what you're getting at. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems you're worried that your families old prototype image will fail to reflect the changes happening to you. Which is an astute observation, if only because, those prototype images we have of people are really slow to update new data. For example, a friend dyes their hair, or a guy friend shaves his facial hair and it takes a moment for you to recognize the change. Its just the way the brain works and as such a unconscious action.
I don't know if suspending familial relations is best, only you can decide that. Perhaps just calling out the elephant in the room? Is your mother open to being educated? Its possible you can be the teacher in this situation. Be patient, gentle and understanding and things may go more smoothly than you fear.
My relationship with my family during transition has had some rough patches but has been mostly positive and even improved in some ways.
I wish my mom were that accepting. If you think it's a good plan, then fine. However, explain your reasons to them so you don't make them feel bad.
It is my experience that a person, even a mother, can eventually adjust to seeing you in your new sex and gender role. Your mother sounds really loving, and I think it would be a shame if you were to avoid her for the sake of passing better to her. This shouldn't be an issue in any case, because loving parents deserve to see you no matter what state you are in. After all, they raised you, cared for you, and want to continue to know you - even if they only know a little about you, from your perspective.
A caring family is the best asset a person can have in their lives. Friends will come and go, but a family that cares will, typically, continue for years to come.
I have struggled with my family over this, and it certainly did take time, but it's worth all the effort. Especially now, because my family is, presently, all I have.
I hope you will realign your theory, even if only for that fact that antisocial tendencies are incredibly unhealthy. Take it from this hypocrite.
Well - If you're family is making an attempt to get to know you as a woman. Then I think it would be wrong to let go of them if even for a year.
I am sure that it's not just me but a lot of us wish our families would support us and see us through. Transition can leave a person lonely and vulnerable for sometime and it is always best to have someone with you who you can trust.
Here, you're family is willing to get to know you, and I won't deny that you do have a point. But completely cutting them off is wrong especially if they are trying to understand and get to know you.
Perhaps some middle ground might make more sense?
I can't speak to the idea of gradual change, because I've never experienced it. I tend to do change whole hog, like everything else in my life. If I need to do something to continue living (or to start living) I'm not going to do it half-heartedly or with trepidation. I might have to follow steps, but my friends and loved ones, to the degree I can trust them, are WELCOME to follow me through this transition and EVERY OTHER transition major and minor in my life. It's what we do.
For example, my friends and colleagues at work did see me becoming more feminine in my dress and mannerisms for a few months before I couldn't take it any longer, joyfully came out to my whole company, and started presenting fully as female in every way from the very next day, for ever more. It was never a problem, except that it was confusing people when I was still nominally male but would be mistaken for a woman. By the way, I transitioned at 45 and was on hormones for 6 weeks only before I began living my life 24/7 my way. So its not like ANYTHING had changed about my body, except my confidence in my own skin. It was enough to change EVERYTHING.
My family, I honored by coming out to them before I did to the world. They started using my new name and pronouns from day one, immediately. I started dressing when I was with them as often as I could - who you going to practice on and get honest feedback from? They would have given me the same feedback, and watched me go through similar developments, if I had gone through puberty as a girl the first time, so what's the big challenge? Does ANYONE think a 25 year old woman is the same person she was when she was an 8 year old girl? Families adjust to gradual changes ALL THE TIME. Its what they were designed to do. And in my case, they are also great for handling surprises.
What I can tell you, which goes for everyone in your life, if you are able to make a change or announcement and stick to it, it helps them a ton. If you are female, give them a name and pronouns to start using IMMEDIATELY, and present as female as is safe to do whenever you are around them. It is a matter of respect, when you ask someone to start seeing you in a new way, to actually start - at least with them - presenting to them in that new way. That's all it takes. People are pretty fantastic, some more than others.
I may be in a different situation. My parents are long dead and could not accept me.
This is my first Christmas as me full time. I'm having my wife's family over for Christmas day ; Mum (90) 2 sister inlaws, 2 brother in laws, me and my very very disabled wife. They have all accepted me without an moments hesitation. Gradual transisition or not. They accepted me with open arms and I love them before and since then.
Give people a chance.
If my 90 yr old mother in law from Bible Land USA can look me in the eye and accept me as a woman and not get a pronoun wrong, and tell me she loves me. Give people a chance.
Open your heart to others. Don't hide it.
You may be surprised.
Cindy
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Reading some of the stories of acceptance here I cannot help but feel a pang of jealously - forgive me girls - when I first came out to my mom she made it clear that she doesn't want me to do anything to "embarrass" them.
Now this is despite the fact that till that time my parents were very open minded and accepting and loving - and although they love me and care for me they just can't accept me. As painfull as this is - since I do care a lot for them - I can't transition fully and I am stuck in boy mode while I am staying with them.
All this makes me realize and makes me say this evenly firmly - If someone is trying to accept you as yourself to abandon them is just plain wrong.
I am sure that many of us have families whom they love but would never see again since they transitioned or since they are going to transition. This is something which forever would be a pain for each of us going through with their transition.
People's perceptions do change, be it with a gradual change or a sudden one. Of course, for the former, the change in perceptions is more gradual, because the physical changes are more gradual as well. But guess what? At the point where you'd have -poof- unveiled your new self, their gradually changing perceptions would be at the same exact level.
The only difference is that when you see those people regularly, they are able to support you and help you in your transition, and they'll feel loved, because you're implying them in something that's important to you.
If they're not gonna accept, if they're always going to see you as a guy (which obviously doesn't seem to be the case for you), a gradual or a sudden change won't change anything.
My parents have also passed. I know Daddy would not be accepting. Very old school. Mom on the other hand would have been. I think she knew, because of everything she taught me growing up. And it is funny, she always would say 'boys need to know this too'.
My exes are not accepting. My middle son and my daughter are. My neighbor has been my friend for more than 15 years and she is still my friend. She is about the only one who stayed when I began.
I am sorry about your parents - Cindy and Ms. OBrien.
muuu, I really hope for that for your own sake, won't go ahead and cut off your family who are trying to accept you.
Because I feel that someday you may regret it. We have only a limited amount of time on this earth and a lot less time to spend with some of our loved ones, please make it count.
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Quote from: muuu on December 16, 2012, 01:15:03 PM
Why are you guys being so negative about this?!
Because you're being EXTREMELY selfish to those around you! You are setting yourself up for your own personal devastation for absolutely NO reason than to fulfill some self constructed ideal guidelines for you to be happy.
Cut your "losses" and see where that gets you. If that's how you treat people close to you, then be ready for a very lonely life. People are going to probably clock you left and right due to your self esteem issues. Once one person clocks you, what keeps them from telling the world? Oh no, now the world sees you as trans, and because of your lack of "trust" will never be able to go out again. So all that work and fighting yourself comes out for nothing, because you'll never be able to live anywhere close to who you want to be... all because you want to be completely stealth or because you're too "scared" that you won't be treated as a cis woman... whatever that means.
I truly feel sorry for you and everybody around you. It's pretty sad that you're going to beat yourself to death over something so silly. But to each their own. Also, I feel sorry for everybody around you because I can see anybody who WANTS to be close to you, being scared off because you've laid a mountain of eggshells in their way. Which sucks for the rest of us because anybody they meet after you that happens to be trans, they'll wonder if they have to treat us the same way. Sad for everybody tbh.
Since you're a masochist, I want to give you some reading material. It's called "So You Want to be a T-girl?" ... I think it'll ground your reality. It's quite sad really. But I think you should read it. It's written by a girl that wrote it through her transition.
http://tgchatroom.com/wiki/index.php/So_You_Want_To_Be_a_T-Girl_(Chapter_1) (http://tgchatroom.com/wiki/index.php/So_You_Want_To_Be_a_T-Girl_(Chapter_1))
http://tgchatroom.com/wiki/index.php/So_You_Want_To_Be_a_T-Girl_(Chapter_2) (http://tgchatroom.com/wiki/index.php/So_You_Want_To_Be_a_T-Girl_(Chapter_2))
http://tgchatroom.com/wiki/index.php/So_You_Want_To_Be_a_T-Girl_(Chapter_3) (http://tgchatroom.com/wiki/index.php/So_You_Want_To_Be_a_T-Girl_(Chapter_3))
Just remember, you'll never be 100% stealth unless you hide behind a box your entire life. There's always going to be a moment where you're caught in a lie, where you have to tell somebody your past, somebody will overhear you talking to someone from your past, somebody will figure it out somehow.
Stealth is an illusion.
Good luck with your life! I bet you'll just love that awkward moment when you transition "completely" and all you worry about is if you pass, letting life fly right over your head. If you even get that far.
Now. Now, my children. Let us be respectful.
Remember the TOS.
Quote from: muuu on December 16, 2012, 01:15:03 PM
Why are you guys being so negative about this?!
If they would ever talk about my childhood or keep pictures of me while little, it would be really offensive, any thoughts or anything relating to how I "was" before is offensive.
They think I was somebody who I wasn't, just a happy boy without any problems at all... If they want to cherish that, then I want to get away from them as far as I can.
Even though they don't know how I really was... Wanting to hold onto whatever false image they have of me is cold and horrible.
Maybe I sound dramatic, but it's still true, even if it could be toned down a bit. Holding onto something that was a bad time for somebody else is just selfish and borderline of evil.
Whatever picture they have of me, they'll simply adjust it slowly to make it fit better. I don't want a messed up image like that, it'll just make things horrible and unsustainable.
It's not only their image that would be screwed up... But how am I supposed to get away from my thoughts of always being in a way that pleases them?
Only way as I see it is to make sure that whatever image there is fades away as much as possible, so there can be something new instead. And so that I (and maybe them) aren't bound to past forced roles and masks. However long that may take... 1 year, 2 years or longer.
And no... I don't like that "Oh, but you must accept your past and live with it!". No I fking don't, I'll just forget it and find new things - I can't change it, but I don't have to live in it.
For example... Why would you make sure a recovered drug addict always remember that they've been stuck into drugs and ruined most part of their life? (assuming they are not in risk of relapse).
If they see themselves as open minded... Then you should tell them how hypocritical they are, and that they aren't any better homophobic or racist (they really aren't).
The way they treat you is completely wrong, and they should realize how evil and rotten they really are. - and yes, don't protect them from that... I'm not going to take that back.
Edit: ... sorry... forgot a "not" in my reply to alexia6...
Really?
If you think that people are going to entirely forget your past, you are fooling yourself.
If you don't accept your past for what it was and move on, you will never, ever get past it and it will haunt you for the rest of your life. Your past is also part of who you are..
And just for interests sake, I am a recovered drug addict and I never let myself forget it.. Why? It helps stop me from going there again.. All addicts have the potential for relapse.
In my personal case I went into my transition phase by expecting it to be bumpy, and focusing my energy around being as compassionate, patient, and accepting to my family during transition as possible. I wanted to be this to them, knowing that I wasn't the only one transitioning - but they would need to as well; I wanted to be sensitive and supportive of them through that. I wanted to embody what I needed from them. I didn't do it perfectly, but I really tried hard to be patient and compassionate.
It was bumpy, however my family has ultimately loved and supported me each in their own way along the way and has seen me through the whole process. My parents are to the point where both of them insisted on being at my side when I have surgery. It's been two years.
I have been misgendered many times, even in public, even heard my family say things that were hurtful to the trans community. "Disrespected" because of innocent ignorance though, not because they didn't love me or support me as their child or sibling - or that they didn't support trans people. I still get misgendered today from time to time by them - but I let it go or gently correct them. It's honestly happening less and less.
I believe that life is about compromises. I am willing to make compromises (when it comes to patience and compassion for those who transition with me) because I believe that maintaining these relationships makes my life richer. In my particular case, this philosophy has served me well in transition, and those that I love most are still by my side to this day.
It took me nearly 30 years to accept myself as a woman; to show myself that compassion and respect. I personally believe my family deserves a little compassion if it takes them two or three years to do the same.
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Quote from: muuu on December 16, 2012, 11:42:32 PM
Well, guess why I don't want to see anyone who's known me.
If I don't need to be with people who're constantly reminding me of it, it'll probably be bearable. It might indeed be a part of me, but a part that would better be forgotten.
Mmh... Ok, drug addict might not have been the best example... just tried to think of something that could have a huge negative impact on your life.
Just change the example to somebody who's been abused/raped, nothing that should be remembered. Sure it's a bit different from being trans, but both are simply painful and yields nothing to keep.
This is just getting stupid and pretty pointless...
Nobody here seems to think and feel like I do, nobody values and fear the same things. Everyone (almost everyone) seem so open to people, and somewhat comfortable with yourself and everything, like there's no problem at all.
Most of my friends respect me enough that they don't ever remind me of the past - well, not in a gendered way. Some have even gone as far as doing a little memory editing, so as far as they care, I've always just been Kelly - eg one of my exGF's refers to me as her exGF.. Family are much the same.
Believe it or not, I once had a similar attitude about things as you seem to.. Turns out I simply was not giving my friends and family the credit they deserve. So how did I get from there to where I am now? The realisation that I was never a man - and most of the world knew it, at least on a sub-conscious level. I have always been who I am now.. I'm just a happier version of who I've always been - which has made things for family and friends much easier. I also realised that transition was not something I would go through entirely alone.. My friends and family would, after a fashion, all transition along with me.
Quote from: muuu on December 16, 2012, 11:42:32 PM
This is just getting stupid and pretty pointless...
Nobody here seems to think and feel like I do, nobody values and fear the same things. Everyone (almost everyone) seem so open to people, and somewhat comfortable with yourself and everything, like there's no problem at all.
Being trans isn't the best thing in the world for most people, but I would argue that it's not really the worst, either. What we were before we transitioned is an important part of us that is very unlike rape or abuse. Being the 'wrong' sex can be, and often is. a very painful experience, but what one does while suffering through this condition is still noteworthy. Unlike experiences with rape or abuse, being the 'wrong' sex is something endured for a large number of years... and your life doesn't stop because of it. It isn't all that you are, and it isn't the only thing that happens for those years. You continue to live, grow, and potentially enjoy life - wherever you can, at least.
You continue to make choices, and you live on in spite of your suffering. I don't think that one's life before transition is something that should be thrown away. Imagine if someone who was trying to recover from chronic depression wanted to forget the years they spent depressed, saying that it wasn't really them, and that it was painful and yielded nothing positive? If that were the appropriate response to hard times, I would have forgotten more than half my life so far.
I understand where you're coming from, and I used to think similarly. A part of it, for me, was shame. I didn't want anyone to know that I was trans because it was something that I was taught to be ashamed of. Being trans was supposed to be disgusting, and people were supposed to hate and cast out trans people. The other part was how I was repulsed by myself... I hated how I looked, sounded, and dressed, and I imagined that remembering being male, when I was transitioned, would be unpleasant.
And it might have been. I learned to not be ashamed of being trans, and while there are people that will, inevitably, be repulsed by the fact... these people are not, in my experience, great in number. Furthermore, that number decreases with every year, as society modernizes and evolves. However, even if everyone (hypothetically) hated my guts for wanting to transition, it wouldn't be shameful because it's something that I'm doing in order to be true to myself. What would be shameful is continuing to live as male because that's what everyone else wanted me to do.
As for the other part... remembering my life as a male is not as uncomfortable as I imagined it might be. It was a necessary part of my life, and I changed myself as soon as I was able to. My life prior to transition isn't something that I'm ashamed of, because it is a testament to my perseverance, willpower, and courage. It might have been uncomfortable to be where I was, but to try to forget it all would be a great loss.
You can do however you like, but to forget one's past is to deprive oneself of many valuable lessons and experiences, and to run away from friends and family to facilitate forgetting one's past deprives one of more of the same.
If you learn to be comfortable with your life prior to transition, it is likely that you will regret alienating friends and family. Even if you can't become comfortable with your past, running away from it can make life significantly more lonely, and additionally cause some noteworthy emotional discomfort in the likely scenario that you can't forget about it as you may enter a state of denial.
Attempting to come to terms with having been the 'wrong' sex, and then accepting it as a necessary and not entirely negative part of your life, is the more efficient course of action as it is less likely to cause unhappiness in the long term. At least, that is my very subjective opinion based on my experiences and reading.
It's up to you, in the end. I just hope that you will expand your perspective and make the most informed decision possible, and I hope that this thread can help with that. It's a true treasure trove of perspective-expanding experience. Enjoy it. :)
Quote from: kelly_aus on December 17, 2012, 12:43:58 AM
Believe it or not, I once had a similar attitude about things as you seem to.. Turns out I simply was not giving my friends and family the credit they deserve. So how did I get from there to where I am now? The realisation that I was never a man - and most of the world knew it, at least on a sub-conscious level. I have always been who I am now.. I'm just a happier version of who I've always been - which has made things for family and friends much easier. I also realised that transition was not something I would go through entirely alone.. My friends and family would, after a fashion, all transition along with me.
That's so true. I've been hiding all this years thinking that nobody would accept it or understand me. Finally I realized that it was me the one who wasn't accepting it. if you want others accepting you, you must work on your self acceptance first.
Even my grandma who is very old fashioned is ok with me. So give people some credit.
Muuu, I've read a few of your posts and I really have to say, I think you may be looking at your life through a pretty distorted lens. Right now these issues probably seem huge and almost insurmountable but the reality is, in day to day life pretty much noone actually cares if you're trans. Your friends and family won't care either. They'll simply carry on loving you becaus that's what friends and family do. If they don't do that, then they're not really friends or family. This idea you have of running away to transition only to reveal yourself to them after you're "finished" just strikes me as strange. If you're not already, I suggest you get some help from a good councilor. Someone who can help you work through this negativity you're poisoning your thoughts with. Its not easy to overcome serious depression but it is totally possible to do so, and to get yourself in a place that you're happy in your own skin, whatever shape that may be.
Quote from: muuu on December 16, 2012, 11:42:32 PM
Mmh... Ok, drug addict might not have been the best example... just tried to think of something that could have a huge negative impact on your life.
Just change the example to somebody who's been abused/raped, nothing that should be remembered. Sure it's a bit different from being trans, but both are simply painful and yields nothing to keep.
Please try to understand a number of the fine guy and gals in here have been through all three. Give them far more credit for the wisdom they have gained,many have had to go it alone and every single one of them can tell you it is one hell of a road go down. Especially when you feel like no ones gives a rats behind about you. It's easier to walk those paths even if they do not understand,when someone is there to listen to you,walk with you,talk with you and give you a helping hand up when you stumble.
See for some of us we see that you have already won part of the battle,we see that your family already cares and wants you around,we see that it can be an asset. It may not seem so now,and it may seem very hard for you to accept that,but that same family you are willing to walk away from may be the very family that can help you through this.
Quote from: muuu on December 16, 2012, 01:15:03 PM
The way they treat you is completely wrong, and they should realize how evil and rotten they really are. - and yes, don't protect them from that... I'm not going to take that back.
I am just going to ignore this thread from here on.
But I will make a few things clear, my parents have always been there for me - although they have difficulty accepting me, they have paid for my education, took care of me when I was sick and carried me to the hospital several times - I owe them my life - it's as simple as that - I would be nowhere and nothing without them. And given that the country I am in treats transpersons horribly - things could have been a lot worse - I could have been forced into begging or prostitution or worse, if it were not for them. Yes, their methods may have bodered on cruel and ruthless at times, but they did what they had to, they starved themselves and made sacrifices for my brother and me so that we could have a decent future. I owe them everything.
I only hope that their sacrifice was worth it.
So I am going to ask this once, do not judge someone without knowing their complete story, and I am not going to give up on them.
Also as for the example about being raped/abused. There are a few gals and guys out here who were actually raped, I would let them speak for themselves when it comes to such examples.
And for the record, I have at various times in my life, been sexually harassed, molested and abused - I do not think it something we should completely forget but instead learn from - find courage and face our tormentors. Only then can we truly forget about such things happening to us.
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Don't think for a second that nobody else on here has the problems that you have. If I listed all the stuff that happened to me as I was growing up, it would probably end up on My Life is a Lifetime movie. I've been in therapy for decades over the abuse and what it all boils down to is self acceptance. The more I accept myself, the less control they have over me. Nobody deserves anything in this life without working for it. Your business is whether you accept yourself or not, not whether someone else does or would. Until you learn to accept yourself, faults and all, you're just going to continue making mountains out of mole hills.
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There's a difference between supporting someone and indulging them in their feelings of self loathing. Most people are disagreeing with you, people who have lived through what you're going through, people who have first hand experience of the kind of things you're just imagining. Maybe you could listen, or maybe you an stay in your imaginary world where being transsexual is the worst thing imaginable. Seriously, it's a first world problem sweetheart. Get some perspective. Some people have real problems.
Quote from: muuu on December 17, 2012, 04:04:14 PM
Why don't you share your issues then? Isn't that the whole point of a support network?
Write about whatever you're going trough, have others who can relate, tell how they got trough it or dealt with it... Or just agreeing with the problem.
Although, I might have misunderstood what this place aims to be... Maybe it's just supposed to be a community for trans people? If that's so, then I'm kinda out of place, sorry for that.
The point of a support network is to offer support and hope. To show you that the world doesn't have to come crashing down around you. To provide you with the tools to succeed in this particular journey. My history is what I go through with my therapist. The world does not need to participate in that. She helps me to get past it and learn self acceptance, which I still don't fully have. Reliving the past doesn't help anybody grow to like themselves and it brings everybody around them down too. The only way to achieve self acceptance is move forward into the future. Learn from the past, but don't dwell on it.