Sun Dec 23, 2012 at 03:30 PM PST
For he has met the enemy...and it is us
by rserven
Follow for TransAction
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/23/1173446/-For-he-has-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-us (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/23/1173446/-For-he-has-met-the-enemy-and-it-is-us)
Subtitle: Be afraid! Be very afraid!
On the one hand, I'd like to be somewhat respectful of the man, even though he never has displayed any respect towards us. But it's hard to win a war of words and concepts while being disrespectful.
On the other hand, this guy just really ticks me off.
Pope Benny is at it again. Having in the past identified transpeople as a larger danger than deforestation of the planet, he apparently decided he should be more specific. So this year's Christmas address was dedicated to transphobia and homophobia. Catholic online interpreted the speech as transphobically as they could manage. It reminded us of the Christmas speech of 2008.
[...]
And guess who is at the center of calling "what it means to be human" into question? If you picked transpeople, you win a cookie. By the way, it is also the case that simultaneously, we are no longer individual people, but rather a movement (see the icon that Catholic Online has been so kind to create for us.
Feel like I have to post but I'm speechless as to what to say. A leader of a billion followers has just painted a target on me. I'm finding this very scary.
Ah, Pope, you need to get out more. ::)
The Pope refers and seeks to validate his opinion by quoting the "Chief rabbi of France." Well, see below about the "chief rabbi of france"
The chief rabbinate of France is a political institution that, despite its pretensions, does not represent all Jewish movements or individuals in France. The role exists because of a historical coincidence where religion meets state. Nevertheless, it presents itself as the head of a religion that has always been suspicious of hierarchies. If we look at the seminal works of rabbinic literature, both Talmuds and the midrashic commentaries, we see that they describe the rabbi as being no closer to the truth than anyone else. Even if the rabbi is sometimes perceived as a "spiritual leader," he derives his authority solely from his knowledge of the Torah, and his students are always free to disagree with him.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/for-whom-does-the-rabbi-speak-when-it-comes-to-gay-rights-in-france-1.475297 (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/for-whom-does-the-rabbi-speak-when-it-comes-to-gay-rights-in-france-1.475297)
The other question I have for the Pope is where in Christs teachings did he explain to you that your job is dehumanize people? Actually where in the bible anywhere does it explains that God talks through one person?
Huh? I am evil?
Well ok, I am gonna play along - muhuhahaha * gives an evil laugh* - I am going to do evil by checking out fashion accessories on-line and look at shoes and clothes - muhuhahaha * gives an evil laugh*
Seriously, someone needs to grow up. I miss Pope John Paul 2 :'(
Anyways - I am seriously wondering if I should go to church this morning after these comments.
I wonder if the Pope has gone mad - and I hope there is no backlash from either side for this.
But are we really more evil than those who commit crimes like pedophiles, human trafficking, forced prostitution, rape and murder?
Like many of the emperors of the Roman Empire, this one has gone mad. It does not surprise me that he is calling for genocidal Holocaust. After all they did back Hitler.
Quote from: Ms. OBrien on December 24, 2012, 11:04:11 PM
Like many of the emperors of the Roman Empire, this one has gone mad. It does not surprise me that he is calling for genocidal Holocaust. After all they did back Hitler.
*Hides under my Captain America shield* :icon_help: :eusa_shifty: :icon_nervious:
Considering the dresses he wears, its hard to take any criticism from him too seriously.
The Pope is just another man, no closer to God than any other. I don't take his opinions any more seriously than the senile old men at the grocery store.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on December 25, 2012, 12:37:53 AM
The Pope is just another man, no closer to God than any other. I don't take his opinions any more seriously than the senile old men at the grocery store.
Except the old men at the store don't have a billion people listening to their words and deciding whom they will vote for and whom they will harrass/desenfranchise/ostracize based on what they say.
I live in a state with a lot of Catholic people. We've been fighting for a transgender rights bill. That just another man could very well have set back that effort considerably.
I read in a article posted elsewhere, that he stated that LGBT, same sex marriage, & the "Trans movement" was the greatest obstacle to World Peace the World currently faces. ??? Considering that religions have and continue to cause more death, destruction, & misery than any other cause in Human history, I think he should go rethink his whole theory! The whole "church sexual abuse scandal" will most likely never be fully realized or resolved, and he has the audacity to make a statement like that? ::)
Nothing we or science tells these people will change their views. Just ignore them!
Quote from: DaniStarr on December 25, 2012, 06:37:46 AM
I read in a article posted elsewhere, that he stated that LGBT, same sex marriage, & the "Trans movement" was the greatest obstacle to World Peace the World currently faces. ???
Good job of misdirection from the issue of the perverted, pedophile priests they never addressed..
I'm going to defend the Pope, because I'm Catholic and it is my responsibility to do such. I can guarantee that the words in this article are being misquoted and taken out of context. They were reported by the media and that is what the media does, take things out of context, only report the parts they want, make stuff up. I found the article to be distasteful and the tone to be nonacademic and offputting.
Even if the Pope said these things, I support him. Everyone has a right to their own views on humanity. Let him take his view, me take mine, and you take yours. That's what being human is about, having different views that will one day form a whole picture.
As for pedophiles and such, the Pope did make an effort to fight against such abominations. He actually did something for that too, forming counsels and issuing edicts against it. He has done nothing, and really can do nothing to "band" laity--Catholic and people who don't want to be called Catholic--from being "homosexual" or whatever. (I believe we are all Catholic, whether we want to be or not)
I respect the Pope as the figurehead of the Church, the Church I am proud to be a member of. I respect him as the successor of Peter appointed by Christ. I think he is an honest and upright man in morals and in love. I can guarantee you he both loves and prays for all of us. Ultimately, God is the ONLY JUDGE. So if you don't like the Pope or what he is doing just ignore him. You may argue, "well he's turning people against us and making things harder." Maybe, but the persecution will make us stronger in the same way it made the early church stronger:
Acts 5:39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God.
Quote from: Stephe on December 24, 2012, 09:06:53 PM
The other question I have for the Pope is where in Christs teachings did he explain to you that your job is dehumanize people? Actually where in the bible anywhere does it explains that God talks through one person?
I may be an atheist, but I was raised on this stuff. I don't think it ever says he only talks through one person, but Exodus has numerous verses about how only the priest is the one to interact with him, normally relating to sacrifices. I seem to remember something about the Ark of the Covenant too where only the priest was allowed into the tent that held it and anybody else that tried would die. BUT this is all old testament stuff. I thought the point of the new testament was that it was the new way and the new testament is all about love and acceptance. He sounds very hypocritcal to me and I don't like hypocrites, probably because I've been forced to live as one for so long.
Quote from: Hippolover25 on December 25, 2012, 09:24:19 AM
I'm going to defend the Pope, because I'm Catholic and it is my responsibility to do such. I can guarantee that the words in this article are being misquoted and taken out of context. They were reported by the media and that is what the media does, take things out of context, only report the parts they want, make stuff up. I found the article to be distasteful and the tone to be nonacademic and offputting.
Even if the Pope said these things, I support him. Everyone has a right to their own views on humanity. Let him take his view, me take mine, and you take yours. That's what being human is about, having different views that will one day form a whole picture.
As for pedophiles and such, the Pope did make an effort to fight against such abominations. He actually did something for that too, forming counsels and issuing edicts against it. He has done nothing, and really can do nothing to "band" laity--Catholic and people who don't want to be called Catholic--from being "homosexual" or whatever. (I believe we are all Catholic, whether we want to be or not)
I respect the Pope as the figurehead of the Church, the Church I am proud to be a member of. I respect him as the successor of Peter appointed by Christ. I think he is an honest and upright man in morals and in love. I can guarantee you he both loves and prays for all of us. Ultimately, God is the ONLY JUDGE. So if you don't like the Pope or what he is doing just ignore him. You may argue, "well he's turning people against us and making things harder." Maybe, but the persecution will make us stronger in the same way it made the early church stronger:
Acts 5:39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God.
Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?
Quote from: Karen on December 25, 2012, 09:56:58 AM
I thought the point of the new testament was that it was the new way and the new testament is all about love and acceptance. He sounds very hypocritcal to me and I don't like hypocrites, probably because I've been forced to live as one for so long.
I agree. I'm a practicing Christian and I honestly don't get why Christianity even reference the OT. I sure don't follow what's in it. If I did, I'd be outside burning some goats and chickens right now! Bigots use the OT as tools to dehumanize other people. It's sad seeing religious leaders doing this.
Quote from: Hippolover25 on December 25, 2012, 09:24:19 AM
Even if the Pope said these things, I support him. Everyone has a right to their own views on humanity.
Leaders of a church do not have the right -under God- to insight hatred and non-acceptance of others. That is not what Christ taught us and The Pope is proclaiming to be "The word".
Quote from: Hippolover25 on December 25, 2012, 09:24:19 AM
Maybe, but the persecution will make us stronger in the same way it made the early church stronger:
O.o So it's OK for people to attack us, beat us up and make our lives miserable because it "will make us stronger"??
Quote from: Stephe on December 25, 2012, 10:14:10 AM
O.o So it's OK for people to attack us, beat us up and make our lives miserable because it "will make us stronger"??
That sounds just like my father's line of thinking. It didn't make me stronger. It made me scared.
One need only look at history and realize that the Roman Catholic Church has a rather checkered past having appointed the sons of Kings and Princes as Popes with no spiritual understanding whatsoever, but more as a political appointment. Many having been entertained by a number of female consorts, even some who fronted armies. Then we have Benedict a former WWII Nazi, what would anyone expect from the man considering a high probability that his past beliefs have to be ingrained in his thought processes. After all didn't the Nazis send a lot of queer folk up the chimneys along with millions of Jews, Christians and others who didn't fit the third Reich's plan for a master race?
Quote from: agfrommd on December 25, 2012, 06:30:00 AM
Except the old men at the store don't have a billion people listening to their words and deciding whom they will vote for and whom they will harrass/desenfranchise/ostracize based on what they say.
I live in a state with a lot of Catholic people. We've been fighting for a transgender rights bill. That just another man could very well have set back that effort considerably.
Remember that the Inquisition, the witch hunts, the crusades, and other persecutions and genocides were initiated, encouraged, and sponsor by Popes.
So, yeah, the fact that this man has decided that we are the "enemy" is a matter of great concern.
Quote from: Hippolover25 on December 25, 2012, 09:24:19 AM
I'm going to defend the Pope, because I'm Catholic and it is my responsibility to do such. I can guarantee that the words in this article are being misquoted and taken out of context. They were reported by the media and that is what the media does, take things out of context, only report the parts they want, make stuff up. I found the article to be distasteful and the tone to be nonacademic and offputting.
Even if the Pope said these things, I support him. Everyone has a right to their own views on humanity. Let him take his view, me take mine, and you take yours. That's what being human is about, having different views that will one day form a whole picture.
@Hippolover25 - Am sorry but as another Catholic - if that's what I still am if the report on the Pope's comments are blown out of proportion or made up.
But here's something I can't agree on - I don't want to defend a man who goes against the teachings of Christ in the Bible to involve his own personal bias in religious propaganda - I have seen priest openly denouncing that being gay is wrong while I was a kid. Now as an adult I have a strong suspicion that I am gonna see more of it. If I were to defend his comments here then I am no better that him. But I am a transgender woman and I would not be able to answer my own conscience if I support someone who denounces others like me.
The kind of response that the Pope is looking for is extremely similar to the one that Germany & Austria gave to the Nazis. Which is just plain scary to me. And if it is then it's all the more reason for me to not agree with him.
Also if he were just another man it would not make any difference. But he is the leader of the religious sect that we belong to. He represents the Catholic community as well as serves as figurehead to guide the church and it's followers. That is the true purpose of the Pope. And even though I don't want to judge him and his views - I can't help but find it inappropriate and irresponsible of him to make such comments. If it was blown out of proportion then how can we explain that he has made similar comments twice.
After a years of dealing with the thought that being gay or bisexual or transgender or queer is wrong drilled into my head and well as a lot of kids who I know. I found these comments so disturbing that I choose to not go to church on a day that I've always gone to church each year.
Quote from: Hippolover25 on December 25, 2012, 09:24:19 AM
Acts 5:39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God.
John
{8:4} And they said to him: " Teacher, this woman was just now caught in adultery. {8:5} And in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such a one. Therefore, what do you say?" {8:6} But they were saying this to test him, so that they might be able to accuse him. Then Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the earth.
{8:7} And then, when they persevered in questioning him, he stood upright and said to them, "Let whoever is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her."
I don't want to judge him and his comments - so I am gonna just ignore him from here on and hope and pray that his successor is better.
But what do I do if I am provoked?
wow - didn't even notice that this was my 500th post
Quote from: Alexia6 on December 25, 2012, 11:25:15 AM
I don't want to judge him and his comments - so I am gonna just ignore him from here on and hope and pray that his successor is better.
But what do I do if I am provoked?
I want everyone to know that I'm not hostile to anyone's religious beliefs or affiliations, I was a member of the Catholic Church for the first eighteen years of my life. But Alexia's question here is one that we all have to deal with at one or more times in our lives. Just as many Catholic women had to do when making conscious decisions concerning the use of contraceptives. They came to a crossroads as to whether to continue to produce children that they were unable to afford to raise or to take the course of the lesser evil of disobeying the Pope's directive on that issue. There comes a time when we have to make choices based on common sense because after all we really aren't sheep but human beings with reason and logic. I think that God would want it that way otherwise we'll all be clones.
Hey, its cool, hatred will only beget hatred, I was simply trying to stop it. No ones a fool. I am Catholic and I have faith in the Pope as a representative to God for us. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But as Milton--well Abdiel--said, "Let me serve in Heaven God ever blest, and his divine behest obey, worthiest to be obeyed" (Abdiel to Satan PL, VI 183-4).
Personally, I think this topic should be closed soon. Spreading hatred--against friend or foe--online isn't going to help anyone.
No one's spreading hate of the Pope or Christianity. We're just saying that the Pope is wrong.
As Martin Luthor King Jr. said, hate the sin, not the sinner. :P
"Love thy neighbor"--> Yeah, unless he/she is Mormon, gay, bisexual, trans, a "Muslim extremist," or an atheist. ::)
I sure don't hate him. I am done hating people. I am questioning that he is following Christs teaching by promoting hatred and... well saying the GLBT is the source of all the worlds problems. Clearly he has some agenda saying this and if you really feel his speech was taken out of context, can you provide proof that this article was wrong? I would be happy if it was!
At least the Pope cares about people in Syria, you got to give him that, he may have wrong ideas about people, but he's not heartless
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20841387 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20841387)
Whether or not it was taken out of context has little bearing. Our presidents have stuff taken out of context all the time, the news reports on it out of context, then it spreads through social media like wildfire out of context. It doesn't matter what was actually said at that point. What matters is what people believe and most people won't take the time to verify the authenticity of the statement. They'll assume it's true and tell all their friends. Even after it's proven false, they'll still spread the false statement to all their friends for years to come and talk about it as fact. If you have a Facebook account, you know what I'm talking about.
Quote from: Hippolover25 on December 25, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
Hey, its cool, hatred will only beget hatred, I was simply trying to stop it.
I don't hate the pope or his religion. I'm scared of them. There's a lot of them and not so many of us. If all of them decide the few of us are doing wrong by living the way we do, we could lose a lot of rights.
Quote from: Hippolover25 on December 25, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
Personally, I think this topic should be closed soon.
Members of Susan's are permitted to discuss difficult subjects. This topic is certainly of interest as the Pope expressed strong beliefs regarding the transgender community. It is also of interest to many here who are Christian and/or follow other faiths. As long as posts don't resort to personal attacks or violate TOS, there is no reason for locking this topic.
News Admin
I highly doubt that the Pope's statements were taken out of context. If they were, it would imply that he either feels neutral or pro-trans. Obviously, he would never say that since it would mean a huge loss of support.
Besides, he and many other Popes spat out hateful bigotry, and we all know that. What makes this case up for speculation?
No one has a responsibility to protect the Pope (for Pete's sake, he isn't even in the Bible). The only responsibility that we have, Christian or otherwise, is to foster equality and protection of all. People like the Pope give the good religious folks a bad name.
I'm glad that I'm an atheist. :P
Apart from the fact that he was a religious bigot for a long time, I am beginning to agree with the early Ian Paisley view of the Papacy as the spawn of Satan.
Seriously though, I find it hard to take anything he says seriously, especially attempting to co-opt Jewish opinion given his involvement with the Hitler Youth. Having discovered my own Jewish heritage it is doubly insulting.
Karen.
Kia Ora,
::) The Pope is old and frail in both body and mind...I say take pity on the poor sod...He's not going to get much comfort where he's going...And I don't mean the Catholic idea of heaven ;)
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: justmeinoz on December 25, 2012, 05:32:06 PM
Apart from the fact that he was a religious bigot for a long time, I am beginning to agree with the early Ian Paisley view of the Papacy as the spawn of Satan.
Karen.
Kia Ora Sister across the ditch, ;) ;D
::) This says it all....
http://www.johnwinter.net/jw/2011/08/flip-side-of-the-coin/ (http://www.johnwinter.net/jw/2011/08/flip-side-of-the-coin/)
Metta Zenda :)