I will never be able to wrap my head around the idea that we do not exist past our physical bodies. That seems rather scary to me to think I would just blink into nothingness, to not be aware of what my future actions on earth did for future generations. I don't understand why some feel there is no afterlife. If there is no afterlife , then there is no accountability for your actions. If I do evil things to people and then die and was never punished for it, what kind of universe is that? If I spend my life doing good things for people, surely there has to be some place for me in eternity that's filled with peace.
Regardless of what God or Goddess you believe in, or if you believe in nothing, It just seems so wrong that there would be nothing after this life.
Otherwise wheres the justice for people who get away with being evil in the here and now?
Do animals have after life? Are they punished by their evil deeds just a humans are?
Can good exist without evilness? Were not both created by G-d?
Who said there has to be justice in the Universe? Whose justice? Think about the poor cow that was killed to make the hamburger that is half way down you colon! Where is her justice?
You cannot judge someone for choosing to be a vegetarian or to eat meat. Certain animals were meant for food. But I have vegetarian friends and I don't judge them at all. Eat meat or don't, either way is fine.
QuoteWho said there has to be justice in the Universe? Whose justice?
We as human beings demand justice, what do you think courts are for? But since we cannot get everyone for crimes, there has to be accountability in the afterlife.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 11:25:03 AM
We as human beings demand justice, what do you think courts are for? But since we cannot get everyone for crimes, there has to be accountability in the afterlife.
What about the man who steals money for his sick wife?
What about the person who would rather eat thousands of calories than buy anything for their daughter's birthday?
What kind of justice/accountability?
Eternal damnation?
Eternal death?
Or simple-minded humans wanting revenge?
Nothing is ever as simple as we often think it is; nor is it as easy to prove. Even I believe things that I cannot explain or provide evidence for; it just means that I don't feel I should go around trying to preach to other people.
In the spirit of skepticism and love,
-Skye
Lot of religious people have a hard time in understanding an Atheistic point of view when it comes to the afterlife.
You said it's hard to comprehend that after your life that's it.
Atheists do not think that way. Atheists (and A LOT of others) believe your legacy is left behind from the deeds you have done in this life and the children and the generation of your families you leave behind.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 11:25:03 AM
You cannot judge someone for choosing to be a vegetarian or to eat meat. Certain animals were meant for food. But I have vegetarian friends and I don't judge them at all. Eat meat or don't, either way is fine.
We as human beings demand justice, what do you think courts are for? But since we cannot get everyone for crimes, there has to be accountability in the afterlife.
sure we can.
If a bear eats a man they hunt down and kill the bear.
If a man eats a bear they don't hunt down and kill the man.
QuoteAtheists do not think that way. Atheists (and A LOT of others) believe your legacy is left behind from the deeds you have done in this life and the children and the generation of your families you leave behind
Well Annah, you and I have an understanding that there is something after this life. That we have souls and we exist beyond this one. You and I are both aware of God's presence. I know for certain that I will exist once my body passes away.
Sure we leave behind a legacy, that is important as well.
Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 12:17:14 PM
sure we can.
If a bear eats a man they hunt down and kill the bear.
If a man eats a bear they don't hunt down and kill the man.
I'm talking about humans Annah, not animals
QuoteRomans 14
The Danger of Criticism
14 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. 2 For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. 3 Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval.
5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. 6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves. 8 If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.
10 So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For the Scriptures say,
"'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bend to me,
and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'"
12 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God. 13 So let's stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.
14 I know and am convinced on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong. 15 And if another believer is distressed by what you eat, you are not acting in love if you eat it. Don't let your eating ruin someone for whom Christ died. 16 Then you will not be criticized for doing something you believe is good. 17 For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God, and others will approve of you, too. 19 So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up.
20 Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, all foods are acceptable, but it is wrong to eat something if it makes another person stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble. 22 You may believe there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right. 23 But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.
Kia Ora Snowpaw and fellow threaders,
::) Just a thought...
:eusa_think: In a country that has the death penalty and where many people believe in a god, heaven and hell...If a person is convicted of killing another person and put to death, do you think it is right/justified that a god should also punished this person in the 'afterlife' ? Isn't death the ultimate punishment for their 'sin' [according to man's law] ?
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 12:23:55 PM
I'm talking about humans Annah, not animals
Why can't animals be held to the same spiritual level as humans?
MANY religions have a great spiritual respect for animals.
Personally, I don't believe in punishment in the afterlife. I believe in Karma...which is not punishment...but a learning tool to learn from prior mistakes.
I'm not sold into the whole hell thing. That concept was created around 150AD.
We Jews don't believe in Hell. (well..Im Jewish by race...most of my family still practices Judaism).
Hell, in my opinion, is an institutional creation to force their followers through fear to listen to them or else.
Kia Ora,
::) Humans are animals!
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 27, 2012, 12:35:58 PM
Kia Ora,
::) Humans are animals!
Metta Zenda :)
agreed
Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 12:34:13 PM
Why can't animals be held to the same spiritual level as humans?
MANY religions have a great spiritual respect for animals.
Personally, I don't believe in punishment in the afterlife. I believe in Karma...which is not punishment...but a learning tool to learn from prior mistakes.
I'm not sold into the whole hell thing. That concept was created around 150AD.
We Jews don't believe in Hell. (well..Im Jewish by race...most of my family still practices Judaism).
Hell, in my opinion, is an institutional creation to force their followers through fear to listen to them or else.
Are you serious?? So let's say someone murders my brother, we never catch the person, they die and as they are dying laugh and revel in thier evil deeds and are happy that they killed my brother, you mean to tell me there's no accountability for them? That they don't get punished??
Quote from: Zenda on December 27, 2012, 12:35:58 PM
Kia Ora,
::) Humans are animals!
Metta Zenda :)
Agreed
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 12:41:46 PM
Are you serious?? So let's say someone murders my brother, we never catch the person, they die and as they are dying laugh and revel in thier evil deeds and are happy that they killed my brother, you mean to tell me there's no accountability for them? That they don't get punished??
I am very serious.
If one were to say God's love is unconditional then it's unconditional. If you take the story of Cain and Abel literally you can see this.
When Cain killed Abel, Eve did not go out there and slaughtered Cain in revenge and God did not send Cain to hell. If you remember, God placed a mark on Cain and protected him saying that if anyone were to exact revenge on Cain then they too will be punished.
God does not work on humanistic revenge. That's a human attribute.
And i think you did not read my comment. Yes of course there will be accountable but that accountability isn't eternity in some kind of fiery lake of hell. I stated Karma. If this person dies laughing to his grave then Karma will have him learn from this lesson.
Annah, we have to be repent of what we have done , for God to accept us, If I take it to my grave and shove it Gods face and reject God and do not turn away from sin and do not ever repent of what i have done, then God cannot accept evil into heaven. I know God will take a murder into heaven if they are sorry for what they have done.
Kia Ora Snowpaw, Shawn Sunshine ,
::) You have brought up an interesting paradox...The physical body dies [this includes the brain-the control centre so to speak] No more neurons firing up =Neurons have specialise cell parts called dendrites and axons. Dendrites bring electrical signals to the cell body and axons take information away, etc.. Thinking is for the most part just 'movement confined to the brain'...Now if the brain dies, where does this leave 'thoughts'of what if? and feelings of fear and anxiety ? What is it that passes over ? Is it the 'mind' ? What is mind ?
Metta Zenda :)
wait...who is snowpaw?
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 12:41:46 PM
you mean to tell me there's no accountability for them? That they don't get punished??
If you have killed them or punished them is some other way, have they not been punished?
i get weirded out when someone stares at my profile for longer than 10 minutes...just saying
Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 01:09:31 PM
wait...who is snowpaw?
Kia Ora Annah,
::) At first I thought you were being deeply philosophical with the "Who is Snowpaw ?" ;) ;D But then I realised I had mistakenly mixed up names, my apologies I meant "Shawn Sunshine"
Metta Zenda :)
lol no worries
Oh wow, well no I am not SnowPaw , at least not in this lifetime
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 01:30:31 PM
Oh wow, well no I am not SnowPaw , at least not in this lifetime
Kia Ora Shawn,
::) Are you sure ? Are you prepared to take Zenda's foolproof lie detector test ? ;)
Metta Zenda :)
QuoteI didn't fail the test, I just found 100 ways to do it wrong.
Benjamin Franklin
QuoteYes of course there will be accountable but that accountability isn't eternity in some kind of fiery lake of hell. I stated Karma. If this person dies laughing to his grave then Karma will have him learn from this lesson.
So what is the punishment then? Come back to earth as a fly and eat poop? What would karma consider to be the punishment?
The saints are crying out for vengeance and I will glad on the day they get it. Hell is separation from God, not a fiery lake, its separation from Love itself.
QuoteRevelations 6:9
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, "Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" 11 They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants[h] and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed.
Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 01:14:53 PM
i get weirded out when someone stares at my profile for longer than 10 minutes...just saying
Who was doing that?
you
oh and if you think the saints cry out for vengeance and revenge then you missed entirely of Christ's teachings. I encourage you to read Matthew 5:39, Luke 6:29, Matthew 5:40 and the Beatitudes.
Oh, well I was looking at your pasts posts, you should not be weirded out at all.
QuoteFor the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The 2nd death is separation from God, that is the worst punishment i can imagine, to be in a dark void, with no love and no light.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 01:46:25 PM
So what is the punishment then? Come back to earth as a fly and eat poop? What would karma consider to be the punishment?
The saints are crying out for vengeance and I will glad on the day they get it. Hell is separation from God, not a fiery lake, its separation from Love itself.
Kia Ora Shawn,
::) Karma according to Buddhist understanding is neither punishment nor reward ! It is 'non judgemental' action that begets reaction which begets another action which in turn begets another reaction and so forth....>Cause>Condition>Effect>Cause>Condition>Effect>Cause>....
::) If you plant a pear seed you get [if the conditions are right] a pear tree...And if you plant a lemon seed, expecting to get a sweet pear tree, you will be sourly disappointed ...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 02:32:25 PM
Oh, well I was looking at your pasts posts, you should not be weirded out at all.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The 2nd death is separation from God, that is the worst punishment i can imagine, to be in a dark void, with no love and no light.
You're adding things to scripture. "For the ages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life" has utterly nothing to do with bad people going to hell.
The verse means we die because of our sin...it says nothing of a second death in that verse. Death is our corporeal death...not a second death.
Also, you have to stop adding things to scripture because when you do you'll go to hell:
Revelations 22:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.see, I can quote scripture too!
That makes no sense, we die a corporeal death regardless of whether we were good or bad. You know what the second death is, don't mince words.
Quote"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11
Revelation 20:4-9 gives us the order of events to take place in the universe from the second coming of Christ till the destruction of the wicked. These two events are separated by the millennium; 1,000 years of peace, during which the righteous are in heaven with Christ. Only after this period is over will the wicked be dealt with. The apostle Peter states that "the heavens and the earth are now kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7.
There is a day of final reckoning. The second death will be a reality. But beyond that we can share the hope of Peter: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13. How does God view the second death? He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.
Quote"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.
Of course its not actual fire like lava, at least not from my understanding, like i said Its separation from God and his/her Love, that is the second death.
So a God whose love is unconditional will send people to hell if those people do not subscribe to an orthodox doctrine of God?
That's like saying a mother wouldn't rush into a burning house to save her daughter who was playing with matches.
There is absolution for those who are unable to hear the words of the God of the Holy Bible. All people , all places have to be accountable for how they live and treat one another.
QuoteThat's like saying a mother wouldn't rush into a burning house to save her daughter who was playing with matches.
God has already saved me from a burning house. Then God showed me not to play with matches like that.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 05:33:30 PM
There is absolution for those who are unable to hear the words of the God of the Holy Bible. All people , all places have to be accountable for how they live and treat one another.
Where did you hear that?
QuoteFor the wages of sin is death
I've
always despised this verse. While I was in high school, I "lay with a man". So, I guess I get to burn, right? I have not and never will acknowledge that as a sin. It was consensual and loving. If "God is love," then any form of love cannot be sin. To assert as much would be blasphemous.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 05:33:30 PM
There is absolution for those who are unable to hear the words of the God of the Holy Bible. All people , all places have to be accountable for how they live and treat one another.
So, since I am a polytheistic Christo Pagan Buddhist who recognizes only the Gospels and discards the rest, I'm damned right? Fine. I'll see you in Summer Land.
My youngest brother put a gun in his mouth, pulled the trigger, and splattered his head all over his living room wall.
Before the bullet finished homogenizing the contents of his brain pan, he was dead. The intricate connections of synapse and neurons dissolved in the rapidly spinning lead and copper that infused his brain.
I admit to being spiritual, but from a practical viewpoint, we're just "wires in a box".
I have no memory of any previous existence. I do not believe that in my previous life I was a woman. Were that the case, then perhaps I should just wait this one out and wait for my next one so I can return to being a born woman. Or perhaps upon my death, the all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, *whatever* will re-incorporate me into the body of a winged *female* angel.
If existence were "Life after life", then *this* life has little meaning, doesn't it? After all there should have been thousands of lives prior to this one and thousands, or more, after this one. Then this one hardly makes a difference.
Where do all the souls in life come from? Are they being printed up somewhere?
We humans have an almost infinite ability to visit horror upon any other living thing. There is rarely justice. What justice was given to the 20 children killed in Newhope? What justice could possibly be given them? What punishment could possibly be sufficient to snuff out the life of an innocent *child*!
Is Adolph Hitler's punishment of being separated from gods love sufficient punishment for the brutalization and murder of six million human beings? Hardly.
I have rambled, ranted and apologize to the sensitive on this list. I really, really didn't want to get involved with this, but, my brothers death still hurts. I will never be able to hold him and tell him that it is alright. Or slap him because he did such a stupid thing.
I have turned the idea of karmic/cosmic/deistic justice over in my mind a million times and find it wanting.
There is no final adjudicator of right and wrong.
Just life. In all its horrific and wonderful ways.
-Sandy
Think my dear Shawn:
Where is the justice on Abraham marring his sister Sarah?
and just to think that we all decent from this incestuous relationship.
Is not s\said somewhere Leviticus: "you shall not marry your sister"
So much for the word of G-d
Quote from: Constance on December 27, 2012, 05:57:48 PM
I've always despised this verse. While I was in high school, I "lay with a man". So, I guess I get to burn, right? I have not and never will acknowledge that as a sin. It was consensual and loving. If "God is love," then any form of love cannot be sin. To assert as much would be blasphemous.
So, since I am a polytheistic Christo Pagan Buddhist who recognizes only the Gospels and discards the rest, I'm damned right? Fine. I'll see you in Summer Land.
Who said you were damned? For instance the Native American Tribes , had knowledge of "The Great Spirit" or Creator , and according to how they lived , whether bad or good , was the only way they could be judged. But a loving God would not reject them just because they had not heard from the books of the bible.
But once you are aware of Jesus, and then deny him before men, Jesus will deny you before the Father.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 07:18:42 PM
But once you are aware of Jesus, and then deny him before men, Jesus will deny you before the Father.
Good thing my Father is Perkunas then.
I'm kinda partial to Thor myself. At least he has a movie about him. >:-)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-zGzByuySsnw%2FTbcNWoz8v6I%2FAAAAAAAAADw%2FDWZW-q15cmo%2Fs1600%2FKirbyThor1228.jpg&hash=44a98a371f4bae327aec2a73ba78808fd8bc15d4)
But all kidding aside let's get back to the topic on hand, which really was about how it would really suck if there was no afterlife.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 08:13:42 PM
I'm kinda partial to Thor myself. At least he has a movie about him. >:-)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-zGzByuySsnw%2FTbcNWoz8v6I%2FAAAAAAAAADw%2FDWZW-q15cmo%2Fs1600%2FKirbyThor1228.jpg&hash=44a98a371f4bae327aec2a73ba78808fd8bc15d4)
But all kidding aside let's get back to the topic on hand, which really was about how it would really suck if there was no afterlife.
Kia Ora Shawn,
::) Why should this matter ? If there is no afterlife, you wouldn't be around to worry about there not being one ?
"Worry is to pay interest on trouble that might never come!"
Metta Zenda :)
It's probably most honest for me to describe my BELIEFS as agnostic while my PRACTICE is Christo Pagan Buddhist.
I reject utterly the concept of an afterlife of hell. But at the same time, I'm not entirely sure of what I believe with regards to an afterlife.
It seems to me that the Abrahamic concept of G'D varies depending on the Abrahamic faith: Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. Growing up Catholic I was taught that G'D is omnibenevolent. If that's true, there cannot be a hell and all of us will be in the same place at the end of things. But it's also the Catholic church's teaching of omnibenevolence that led to me leaving that church. It seemed they taught great love but encouraged a restrictive practice of it. Some were just "more equal than others."
Well then if there is no afterlife and no existence of God and it doesn't matter what I do I will just go and do this then:
Tsar bomba HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_848077&feature=iv&src_vid=WwlNPhn64TA&v=-s8iie0zZ-g#)
Give me a few moments while i hack into the worlds computers and start having fun.
I have read/seen peoples accounts of being in hell, and these are people who died and came back. I am sure it is a lot safer to just chuck that all up to the brain playing tricks on you, but I am not taking that chance.
If the atheists are right and there aren't any gods/there isn't a G'D, there is no afterlife or before life, my practice will not change. Only the details would. Instead of worshiping my matron and patron deities, I would worship life/creation itself and continue to try to be the best person I can.
I will not be religious for some great reward.
I would die for him, and I will be glad when the day comes that someone kills me for being a Christian, if that ever happens.
QuoteJohn 15:13 No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends.
The Seventh Sign - Birth and Abby's Death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1eYLJ0ELEg#)
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 08:40:07 PM
Well then if there is no afterlife and no existence of God and it doesn't matter what I do I will just go and do this then:
Tsar bomba HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_848077&feature=iv&src_vid=WwlNPhn64TA&v=-s8iie0zZ-g#)
Give me a few moments while i hack into the worlds computers and start having fun.
I have read/seen peoples accounts of being in hell, and these are people who died and came back. I am sure it is a lot safer to just chuck that all up to the brain playing tricks on you, but I am not taking that chance.
Kia Ora Shawn,
::) Only a person who is mentally unstable would do such a thing...Think about it...Who in their 'right' mind would want to destroy the planet...Bite the hand that feeds them....
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Constance on December 27, 2012, 08:49:27 PM
If the atheists are right and there aren't any gods/there isn't a G'D, there is no afterlife or before life, my practice will not change. Only the details would. Instead of worshiping my matron and patron deities, I would worship life/creation itself and continue to try to be the best person I can.
I will not be religious for some great reward.
Kia Ora Constance,
::) I'm an Atheist in that I don't recognise an absolute personal deity...But I'm not philosophically atheistic because I don't deny ultimate reality !
Metta Zenda :)
Sometimes I feel like my relationship with the Divine is similar to Conan's relationship with Crom.
"And if you do not listen, then to hell with you!"
Do I need gods? In this life, no. I need people. Gods are for later, but I maintain my practice. Again, not to assure I'll "be saved," but because I feel I gain some benefit in the here and now for my efforts.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 08:58:32 PM
I would die for him, and I will be glad when the day comes that someone kills me for being a Christian, if that ever happens.
The Seventh Sign - Birth and Abby's Death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1eYLJ0ELEg#)
Kia Ora Shawn,
:eusa_think: Surely to wish for something like that would be to go against your god's will...From what I gather your Christian god is meant to be kind, compassionate, loving, etc and wants you to be happy in life-not look forward to death....
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on December 27, 2012, 08:25:23 PM
::) Why should this matter ? If there is no afterlife, you wouldn't be around to worry about there not being one ?
This.
If there isn't an afterlife, you're not going to care when you die. If there's nothing there to worry then there's nothing to worry about.
I don't believe that the afterlife is there to punish people or to reward people for things they do now. I don't believe that if there was ever proof of no afterlife that people would start doing "bad" things. People, surprisingly [/sarcasm], can do good things without religion or any sort of spirituality. There are lots of wonderful Atheists out there who do great things and they [usually] don't believe in an afterlife or in any sort of higher being.
Religion or spirituality isn't needed to have a good moral compass nor is it needed to punish or reward people for good needs. You just need empathy and the ability to not be a 'rude' person.
To me, having something as awful as Hell is a means of subjugating the masses and making them compliant sheep the same with having a Heaven or any other sort of after world. It also seems to want to make people look forward to death and to not try to fix the world as it is "God's will" or "there is a better place."
[Note: I don't really care what a person's belief is; it's their life and they can believe what they want. I'm pagan with an emphasis on the Celtic and Egyptian gods with a touch of Buddhist ideals.]
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 08:40:07 PM
Well then if there is no afterlife and no existence of God and it doesn't matter what I do I will just go and do this then:
Tsar bomba HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_848077&feature=iv&src_vid=WwlNPhn64TA&v=-s8iie0zZ-g#)
Give me a few moments while i hack into the worlds computers and start having fun.
That's actually a very prejudice viewpoint to have against Atheists. Matter of fact, many Christians uses this prejudice "belief" to bring Atheists down. It also shows me how weak minded a Christian is if they believe that they are capable of hacking people or killing people if their God didn't put them in check.
That prejudice belief is that if you don't believe in God then you are immoral or have no ethical value.
Well, I can tell you that I have met way more unethical Christians than I have met unethical Atheists. I have met more Christians who have a warped sense of morality or no morality than I have met Atheists with the same issue.
And the fact that a Christian believes that she or he is only capable to be morale and unethical by following Biblical law and rules scares the hell out of me. Jesus taught you should be moral, kind, and ethical because it's the right thing to do. It doesn't take a religious person to practice those. And Jesus proved that point by saying how immoral the Pharisees were and they knew the Bible backwards and forwards.
So I don't buy the argument "if you're not a religious or spiritual person then you are capable of killing people."
Oh....btw, the people who dropped the atom bomb were all Christians and three Jews. I just wanted to throw that out there.
And when you stated you read accounts about people being in hell....well those people are certifiable whack jobs. Mary K Baxter, "Divine Revelation of Hell" is one of those people. If you read that and even believed in 10% of what she said then I feel really bad for you.
Also, another whack job book is "He came to set the Captives Free." Written by a drug addict former Doctor who suffers from Paranoia Schizophrenia (documented) who lost her license because she was abusing the anesthesia and forcing exorcisms from patients in a coma...she was caught having lighted candles in the coma patient's room and said Satan was making them sick. The State of Indiana revoked her Medical License and her ability to practice medicine permanently because she started telling patients that there were werewolves outside of the patient's windows waiting to drag them away for a human sacrifice.
And theologically, if there is a hell, if a person goes there they cannot come back and write a book about it.
I swear, fundamentalist Christianity is some scary stuff.
QuoteThat's actually a very prejudice viewpoint to have against Atheists. Matter of fact, many Christians uses this prejudice "belief" to bring Atheists down. It also shows me how weak minded a Christian is if they believe that they are capable of hacking people or killing people if their God didn't put them in check.
That prejudice belief is that if you don't believe in God then you are immoral or have no ethical value.
I never said that atheists don't have morals, please don't put words in my mouth. I simply was pointing out that a person might be convinced to blow up the world, because it doesn't matter. However I know that people also feel like blowing up things because they feel God told them to do so. But I won't be blowing up the world anytime soon (and I pray we never do that to ourselves) because I know my actions would have everlasting consequences.
QuoteWell, I can tell you that I have met way more unethical Christians than I have met unethical Atheists.
And I have met more ethical Christians than I have met unethical ones.
The simple truth is that everything we do does matter. It does have a purpose.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 10:55:24 PM
The simple truth is that everything we do does matter. It does have a purpose.
Kia Ora Shawn,
::) My original comment was why should it matter if there's no afterlife? After all it wouldn't 'matter to a piece of slowly decaying 'matter' ....
Metta Zenda
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 10:55:24 PM
I never said that atheists don't have morals, please don't put words in my mouth. I simply was pointing out that a person might be convinced to blow up the world, because it doesn't matter.
When you wrote, "Well then if there is no afterlife and no existence of God and it doesn't matter what I do I will just go and do this then: (Detonate Atom Bomb)"
That's not me putting words in your mouth. When you wrote that, it gave me the impression that if there was no afterlife or no God then it doesn't matter if you kill people. I mean...you wrote that...i didn't warp any words there. Many Atheists do not believe in an Afterlife or a God so based on your comment that if there was no afterlife or no God it is easy to kill people or hack people then it would be natural to assume that atheists are more capable to do these things.
QuoteAnd I have met more ethical Christians than I have met unethical ones.
Be a pastor in a fundamentalist church for 10 years and be married into a 5th generation fundamentalist church family. You'll see all the unethical behavior you want
*Christians voted for Slavery....used the Bible to prove slavery should be legal.
*The Virginia 1610 mandate had a law that if you missed church three times you are to be executed
*Christian Crusaders killed Jews and pagans on their way to the holy lands as target practice.
*The city of Beziers, France was completely wiped out because of some "heretics." Everyone died. The phrase, "Kill them all and let God sort them out" was coined at this event.
*More Christians than not voted against the Women Suffrage movement of the 1920s, citing The Apostle Paul when he stated women should be silent.
*Christians voted against the Black Civil Rights movement in the 1960s. Billy Graham wrote in a Alabama paper that he "wished Dr King would stop protesting and sit back down."
*Christians in North Carolina made it illegal in the 1960s from a white person marrying a black person, citing the book of Genesis.
*Christians in North Carolina made it illegal in 2012 from gays marrying. citing the book of Leviticus.
*Christian Pat Robertson stated that Feminists are lesbians who want to destroy Christianity
*Christian Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blamed the 3000 deaths on 9/11 on gay people
*Pat Robertson blamed the tsunami of 2007 that killed over 200,000 people on gay people.
*Christian Psychologist Dr. James Dobson blamed the killing of the children in Newtown, CT on the Same Sex Marriages that were passed in the 2012 elections
*A Christian Judge denied me from seeing my three children until they are 18 because I changed genders.
*Westboro Baptist Church pickets the funerals of soldiers saying that God killed them because of the ->-bleeped-<-s.
*4 Black children were blown up in the 16th Street Baptist Church by Robert Chambliss, Herman Cash, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry (elders and deacons of their own churches).
*Lutheran Deacon, Dennis Radar, was arrested in 2005 for the deaths of 10 people.
and on and on and on. So I stand by my statement. Christians do some pretty unethical things.
QuoteThe simple truth is that everything we do does matter. It does have a purpose.
I agree with that
QuoteChristians do some pretty unethical things.
Yes they do, but so does everyone else. History is full of people doing stupid things to each other.
I am not one of those people who will be doing something that stupid, God save me from doing anything like that.
Annah.
I think you should be careful with these citations. They have been quite popular since the 60s, but the reality is, most are interpretations while many are simply not true. For example, Christians did not vote for slavery.
Small point perhaps, but some people think they Liberated the Freedom Loving People of Kuwait. But that doesn't make it true.
If the issue is, is there an afterlife? Then I would need to know what you mean by an afterlife.
If the subject is about conscious individuality, then there can be no answer. Those that make a pronouncement one way or the other are expressing a belief.
What have you done to better the life of others?
This is a question that every self-respecting human being should ask himself or herself. It becomes more relevant as you pass your early adulthood and become more cognizant of your own mortality. Life is not about yourself but about what you have done for others.
Your actions on this regard may dictate your fate in the afterlife if indeed there is an afterlife.
If there is no afterlife, then your existence did had a meaning: your brief positive journey through this earth was of consequence by having helped the lives of other humans, and by having contributed to the better life of future generations.
Just to summarize your two main points...
1) If we don't exist after we die, what it the purpose of doing good deeds?
2) If there isn't an afterlife, then there isn't a proper justice for people who do evil things.
Firstly, you are assuming that said afterlife is a place of reward or punishment. Secondly, that a god controls the afterlife.
God creates man in the beginning, and man is the most important creature on the planet according to Christianity. Man sins and is forced to pray for repentance while slaughtering innocent animals. Fast-forward, Jesus is sent by God to die slowly and painfully on a cross so that all of humanity can be forgiven forever.
By creating man, God is forced to think up a loophole in the free will equation. Which leads to another violation of free will involving absolute unquestioning belief and trust in Jesus Christ.
In effect, God created humans with free will so that they weren't robots made to love him; then he forces all humans to worship him or go to hell.
If any one thing is changed in this narrative, all basic doctrines are changed. And if Jesus died so that people wouldn't be separated from God's love, that isn't much of a sacrifice; couldn't God just forgive without all this killing? I don't have to kill anything to forgive someone, does that make me inherently better than God?
This isn't blasphemy, these are the logical consequences of believing in particular dogma + doctrine.
Or perhaps all of this is just a human way of perceiving God. Maybe we are twisting the truth to our own desires of reward and revenge.
All I ask is, What is more likely?
That god is illogical and paradoxical?
Or that God is extremely difficult for humans to understand?
Or that God does not exist?
I leave it to you...
With love and respect,
-Skye
Quote from: spacial on December 28, 2012, 08:00:10 AM
Annah.
I think you should be careful with these citations. They have been quite popular since the 60s, but the reality is, most are interpretations while many are simply not true. For example, Christians did not vote for slavery.
I have taken over 60 Credits in post graduate Christian history. 15 of those credits were in American Christian History. I don't whimsically throw out interpretations.
In the late 1850s, the North had a hard time defending themselves by stating Slavery was immorally wrong because the South had more Biblical references for Slavery than the North had Biblical references against Slavery. Christians did indeed vote to try to keep slavery enforced and cited the Bible in their legislation many times.
This isn't me pulling stuff from Google. This is from post graduate work at a CHRISTIAN Seminary being taught by some of the finest Christian professors (who have had experience in education at Harvard, Emory, and Yale) within Christian American History and working with the original materials.
Everything I wrote is true. Sorry if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Sometimes truth can do that.
Quote from: peky on December 28, 2012, 09:59:04 AM
What have you done to better the life of others?
This is a question that every self-respecting human being should ask himself or herself. It becomes more relevant as you pass your early adulthood and become more cognizant of your own mortality. Life is not about yourself but about what you have done for others.
Your actions on this regard may dictate your fate in the afterlife if indeed there is an afterlife.
If there is no afterlife, then your existence did had a meaning: your brief positive journey through this earth was of consequence by having helped the lives of other humans, and by having contributed to the better life of future generations.
WOW this^^^ is so profound -if i do not say myself- that I wish I can give myself and "applaud"
>:-) :angel: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Thank you to all that have posted in this thread. It has been very refreshing to see the different points of views.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 27, 2012, 11:35:39 PM
Yes they do, but so does everyone else. History is full of people doing stupid things to each other.
I am not one of those people who will be doing something that stupid, God save me from doing anything like that.
Kia Ora Shawn,
::) " Good people do good things-Bad people do bad things-For '
some' good people to do bad things-that takes 'religion' !"
::) Good-Bad is 'relative' !
Metta Zenda :)
Ok, just a few thoughts (Please don't rip my head off for expressing them):
1. There doesn't have to be an afterlife. Absolutely nothing factual requires the existence of such a thing; only subjective opinions do.
2. By the logic that there must be an afterlife because it would be bad for people not to be accountable, there must also never be a bad occurrence ever. Nonetheless, people get killed, raped, mugged, injured, disabled, etc. Life is full of things that aren't fair. I know it sounds harsh, but it's true.
3. Life isn't first about helping other people. I know that this is going to sound bad, but I always believed that you are your first priority. If anyone was completely selfless, he or she would be dead from dehydration because he or she would have given everyone else his or her water instead of taking some for his or her own. No one is completely selfless.
4. Religion is created by mankind. By the logic that Hell is only a creation to keep the masses in check, religion can be the exact same thing. Religion is just something that people use to make themselves feel better, such as believing in a higher power or an afterlife. Being religious is completely fine, just so long as you don't try to force your religion on other people or assert that your religious beliefs are facts and that everyone else is wrong without any evidence.
I apologize for coming across as harsh. :)
Quote from: DianaP on December 28, 2012, 04:51:26 PM
3. Life isn't first about helping other people. I know that this is going to sound bad, but I always believed that you are your first priority.
Perhaps not completely selfless, but life is all about helping people when one is a parent. I speak (post?) from experience.
Well, helping one's kids SHOULD be the first priority. To that end, being sure one is able to provide for them entails taking care of oneself too. But this self-service is due to needing to serve one's kids.
Reasons aside, you are still your first priority.
Quote from: DianaP on December 28, 2012, 05:32:46 PM
Reasons aside, you are still your first priority.
Kia Ora Diana,
::) What you say is an irrefutable truth=the 'sub-conscious' level must be taken into account...Self preservation is 'built-in'...
::) And I should add, if one does not 'believe' this to be the case, then consciously try to stop breathing. ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Quoteassert that your religious beliefs are facts and that everyone else is wrong without any evidence
Except that I have the right to believe my beliefs are in fact "facts". God is a fact for me, not a belief. However, I won't go around stopping people from believing what they want though as long as they don't hurt anyone, cause that's freedom of religion, and I can't interfere in that.
Here are some other things I accept as facts:
Aliens exist and there is life on other planets
Time Travel is real
Faster than light speed is real
Can I prove any of that to you, not at the moment i can't, but It's real to me and I accept those as "facts"
Shawn, here at Susan's we can believe our beliefs are facts, but we must express them as opinions. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 28, 2012, 06:28:08 PM
Shawn, here at Susan's we can believe our beliefs are facts, but we must express them as opinions. Hugs, Devlyn
Yes that would be wonderful if everyone did that, but i have seen plenty of posts that are opinions being asserted as fact on Susan's since i joined.
Shawn, don't take the following as an attack on your religion, but to play Devil's Advocate (no pun intended), by stating that your beliefs are facts you are basically belittling anyone else's beliefs by saying that they are completely wrong. Doing so can offend a lot of people and make you come across as arrogant by not acknowledging even the tiniest possibility that you can be wrong.
That is good then, because I am not trying to offend anyone.
I have noticed though that people will use facts to back up their beliefs and then use that to attack people. If i have ever done that, then I am sorry.
It seems like the spirituality forum has a tendency to always offend someone, even if you were not trying to.
I believe that I have had experiences with the Greenman, the Faerie Queen, Perkunas, Pele, the Abrahamic G'D, and my spirit ally the Lost Bison. Do I believe they exist? I guess so.
To me, there is a paradox in faith. Knowledge negates faith. If you know something is true, is that really faith? For me, faith has its roots in doubt.
I will never say that I have actually had experiences with those beings listed above. I believe I have, but I could have been mistaken. The moment I know for certain will be the moment my faith has ended.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 28, 2012, 06:24:57 PM
Here are some other things I accept as facts:
1) Aliens exist and there is life on other planets
2) Time Travel is real
3) Faster than light speed is real
Can I prove any of that to you, not at the moment i can't, but It's real to me and I accept those as "facts"
I respect your and anybody's beliefs when it comes to metaphysics (religion, theology, etc) but when it comes to scientific facts...well, then I will call them by what they are...
1) The laws of chance guaranty that life exists in other planets,
2) and 3) are precluded by the laws of physics (Einstein Relativity Theory)
I see your point Constance. I think its easier with issues of would be science (or yet to be disclosed to the public types of science)
There are some plausible explanations for Faster than light travel. I have read enough about that subject to think its a fact now, instead of just a theory.
But then that's where it ends, and belief sets in, I believe that people have really seen alien spacecraft, my parents even said they saw a ufo. I have to logically assume that other species figured a way to get here fast enough so they would not die in the ship.
Quote from: peky on December 28, 2012, 06:54:53 PM
I respect your and anybody's beliefs when it comes to metaphysics (religion, theology, etc) but when it comes to scientific facts...well, then I will call them by what they are...
1) The laws of chance guaranty that life exists in other planets,
2) and 3) are precluded by the laws of physics (Einstein Relativity Theory)
This is why I like science because i has the capacity to prove the existence of the beyond. Maybe not today but someday.
After all science has proven what used to be accepted as fact as otherwise:
We said the earth was flat
We said the sun revolved around the earth
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 28, 2012, 06:59:49 PM
This is why I like science because i has the capacity to prove the existence of the beyond. Maybe not today but someday.
After all science has proven what used to be accepted as fact as otherwise:
We said the earth was flat
We said the sun revolved around the earth
You are really funny you know, I hope you will never stop posting
But its true! It used to be flat...once all those ships started falling off the side of the earth it was just enough weight to change the shape of the earth.
Then what happen is once it became round it pushed the sun 96 million miles away, and well i have no way to explain the rest. ;D
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 28, 2012, 06:24:57 PM
Here are some other things I accept as facts:
Aliens exist and there is life on other planets
Time Travel is real
Faster than light speed is real
Can I prove any of that to you, not at the moment i can't, but It's real to me and I accept those as "facts"
Kia Ora Shawn,
::) Time Travel : Check this old thread out https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106431.40.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,106431.40.html)
There are some interesting comments on the thread.....Keep up the good work Shawn- I'm rewarding you for your 'never say die' attitude and of
cause course your warped sense of humour ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Well Thanks! ;D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F0.tqn.com%2Fd%2Fclassicfilm%2F1%2F0%2F8%2FK%2F-%2F-%2Fnever_say_never_again_poster.jpg&hash=0cae07527b79a68c6bf9c05c11f7673f56b0f82b)
Well, technically, you can travel faster than light if you somehow manage to use a wormhole. You travel a particular distance faster than light could have. However, if you and a beam of light were shot through a wormhole, the light would be faster.
So in a way, you can and can't travel faster than light. Of course, this is assuming that one day, wormholes would be able to be created. (Just two black holes back-to-back)
This is worth watching if you have 44 minutes to spare! If you don't just go back in time before you watched it 44 minutes. :angel:
All the current theories on time travel are mentioned in this video, that I know of.
Through the wormhole S1E03 - Is time travel possible(FULL) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdzDS25c1nc#)
Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2012, 01:09:31 PM
wait...who is snowpaw?
She is the first creation of this kingdom and will outlive this world. So in short she is the single most awesome person ever. Surprised I should be forgotten so easily. Tsk tsk.
All glory to Snowpaw!
It is so hard to post here sometimes. My dysphoria just gets so twisted and turned and all that jazz.