Well, I thought of an interesting discussion: is transition selfish?
I know a lot of people here see it as something that isn't so, but is that necessarily the case? I know that there are other people involved in transition (friends, family, coworkers, etc.), but we all decide to disregard the often negative views of transition ("don't do it" or "what about our marriage?" come to mind) in order to make ourselves feel better and live a life worth living, or to us at least.
I'm not saying that transition is a bad thing; in fact, it's far from bad. I'd say it's downright innocuous if you look at it from a pragmatic perspective. There is nothing inherently wrong with transition. However, the question I pose is not if it's a bad thing, but a selfish one.
Probably, don't care because I'm just a generally selfish and greedy person anyway, lolz.
I like to think everyone is selfish, I mean you're all living in a house, paying for internet access and buying nice things. All of that money could be going to starving third-world orphans!
Exactly! Thank you! ;D
Given that many trans people can become depressed to the point of feeling suicidal, you could argue that it's less selfish than not transitioning, since a dead family member is worse than one who starts dressing like the opposite gender. Depends on the family, though, I guess. :p
Another way of looking at it is the big picture view -- the more trans people who are open about who they are, the more normal it'll seem to society at large, and thus the more comfortable the next generation of trans family members will be. (To say nothing of the reduced stress the next generation of trans kids themselves will experience.)
Those are some good points, too. However, from a purely logical viewpoint, isn't self-preservation selfish?
I'm sorry. I know I can be difficult. :P
Is it?
If you strip our actions down a simple logical argument, then our entire purpose in life is ensure the continuation of the species, in which case a trans person who gets SRS or kills themselves before having kids is selfish; whereas one who gets SRS or kills themelves after having kids is not selfish.
But that argument is ridiculous because it's ignoring the thousands of other factors that make us do what we do. Self-preservation can be selfish or noble or both. It's always going to be a balancing act, so I guess we just have to do whatever seems like the right thing to do and hope we made the right decision.
Alright, but what about those of us who are non-suicidal that transition, despite the fact that there are people in our lives (like my super-Catholic mom) who would be "heartbroken" as a result?
That's the trouble with balancing acts -- you're always going to make some bad with the good. But what else can you do, other than reshuffle the scales so something else is black?
Quote from: TessaM on December 30, 2012, 09:01:42 PM
Like my dad said (when I first came out to him) what are other people going to think of you and our family? Don't be so selfish. That was so insulting to me. Hiding would be a selfless act and him "forcing" me to act a certain way would be selfish.
I understand your frustration. My mom said just about the same thing. Him telling you to suppress your feelings is selfish, I was just wondering if others think transition is too.
I for one think that it is, at least in my case (don't know how everyone else sees it). I feel bad, so I want to do something for myself. It's like buy a pair of fancy shoes. I know that there is a huge difference (one can be necessary, while the other isn't), but I hope you get my point.
From Wikipedia:
QuoteSelfishness is placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others.
I think that keeping YOURSELF alive and living the life YOU want fits into this definition of selfish. But like others have pointed out, that doesn't mean that being selfish is always a bad thing.
Well, of course selfishness isn't always bad. I'm not saying transition is either. I'm just saying that transition technically can be construed validly as being selfish.
On the surface, yes.
When the decision process finally boils down to do I do myself in, or try something different than no.
IMHO, selfishness applies when "Magical thinking" rules. Transition is generally not an easy decision to make since the decision affects many more lifes than our own
EVERYTHING we do is selfish. A human being or any organism doesn't expend effort to do anything unless there is a positive benefit in doing it on a negative consequence of not doing something. Think of the most unselfish person or deed you can come up with and I will prove it.
Quote from: TessaM on December 30, 2012, 09:14:07 PM
My feeling, Diana, is that once you start going through transition and you start feeling so amazing and so much better about yourself you too will see how these actions are not selfish, though I too once pondered if these actions in fact were.
Well, I don't know if my opinion on selfishness will change, but I hope that you're right about me feeling better.
Quote from: JessicaH on December 30, 2012, 09:14:18 PM
Think of the most unselfish person or deed you can come up with and I will prove it.
I'm a volunteer firefighter and I've run into burning buildings to save complete strangers without getting paid (hence being a volunteer).
Have a field day.
We're told to look out for number one our whole lives. Just for some reason, we didn't get the memo. We care too much about how our actions will affect those around us. If you really think about it, those that would make you feel shame for being yourself are the selfish ones. You can't be happy because it would make them sad. Their reactions of you make you sad. Everybody's looking out for their own happiness. We should be no exception.
I view my ->-bleeped-<- as a medical condition.
Transitioning will help with that medical condition.
I don't think it's selfish to get the help that I need.
I would say that transitioning is not selfish in anyway. Is changing your shirt or hairstyle selfish? It really shouldn't matter to the rest of the world what you want to do with your body or how you wish to dress or present yourself.
Quote from: muffinpants on December 30, 2012, 09:24:19 PM
It really shouldn't matter to the rest of the world what you want to do with your body or how you wish to dress or present yourself.
Girl, you're preaching to the wrong crowd. We're already sold on that point, so don't waste your time. :)
Unfortunately, for some illogical reason, it does matter to some overly sensitive people that get in a tiff about innocuous things because it goes against the Bible or something. We disregard their feelings and only listen to our own. Food for thought. :)
Quote from: JoanneB on December 30, 2012, 09:13:00 PM
On the surface, yes.
When the decision process finally boils down to do I do myself in, or try something different than no.
IMHO, selfishness applies when "Magical thinking" rules. Transition is generally not an easy decision to make since the decision affects many more lifes than our own
^^
it really depends on your situation.
Quote from: DianaP on December 30, 2012, 09:18:44 PM
Well, I don't know if my opinion on selfishness will change, but I hope that you're right about me feeling better.
I'm a volunteer firefighter and I've run into burning buildings to save complete strangers without getting paid (hence being a volunteer).
Have a field day.
You make this too easy! :-) With YOUR values, what would be the cost of standing there and doing NOTHING? I will let YOU answer what you got out of doing such an incredible but selfish act...
Quote from: JessicaH on December 30, 2012, 09:29:00 PM
You make this too easy! :-) With YOUR values, what would be the cost of standing there and doing NOTHING? I will let YOU answer what you got out of doing such an incredible but selfish act...
Ooh, you're good. She stumped me.
(PS: is the anti-bot questioner sentient? It's asking me about fire engines. :p)
Quotemany of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view
At the end of the day, selfishness is still just a human concept and there are many ways of looking at what we do.
Has anybody transitioned for somebody else? (the altruistic viewpoint). You could frame it this way: Staying alive but in the opposite gender would make your family happier than if you were to commit suicide. So looking at it this way, no you are not being selfish.
QuoteIf you strip our actions down a simple logical argument, then our entire purpose in life is ensure the continuation of the species
But not everyone can do that, some women cannot have children and nor can some men, some intersex folks cannot have children either, as a transsexual person once you have transitioned you probably cannot have your own biological children at that point. If there were just 2 transgender people left on the planet (who could reproduce) it would be selfish to not want to reproduce and save the human race from extinction, but we have enough people making babies on the planet now so, there's no issue there.
But i think it would be more selfish to hide the truth from people, and live a life where you could not really have happy and healthy relationships, always feeling depressed and out of sync with everyone. Being the best version of yourself will end up making you more able to help other people.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 30, 2012, 09:37:40 PM
But not everyone can do that, some women cannot have children and nor can some men, some intersex folks cannot have children either, as a transsexual person once you have transitioned you probably cannot have your own biological children at that point. If there were just 2 transgender people left on the planet (who could reproduce) it would be selfish to not want to reproduce and save the human race from extinction, but we have enough people making babies on the planet now so, there's no issue there.
That was exactly my point -- trying to boil an argument down to a simple "is this right or not?" question is silly, because there's always a million other factors being ignored.
Ahh ok ;)
Well my family is going to see this as hurting them and as a selfish act, at least most of them would. But if i do this thing I think I would be more at peace and then have more energy and time to dedicate myself to others.
Quote from: AlexD on December 30, 2012, 08:55:29 PM
Is it?
If you strip our actions down a simple logical argument, then our entire purpose in life is ensure the continuation of the species, in which case a trans person who gets SRS or kills themselves before having kids is selfish; whereas one who gets SRS or kills themelves after having kids is not selfish.
But that argument is ridiculous because it's ignoring the thousands of other factors that make us do what we do. Self-preservation can be selfish or noble or both. It's always going to be a balancing act, so I guess we just have to do whatever seems like the right thing to do and hope we made the right decision.
I disagree. Having children is one of the MOST selfish things we can do. This desire and the offspring are so important to us that we would kill or die for them.
Quote from: JessicaH on December 30, 2012, 09:49:32 PM
I disagree. Having children is one of the MOST selfish things we can do. This desire and the offspring are so important to us that we would kill or die for them.
True. I suppose natural selection is paradoxical like that -- continuation of the species is paramount, but we accomplish that by doing our best to screw over our kin in favour of our own offspring.
It's one reason why I'm not a fan of the "natural = good" argument. Nature is a brutal, unforgiving SOB.
Quote from: JessicaH on December 30, 2012, 09:29:00 PM
You make this too easy! :-) With YOUR values, what would be the cost of standing there and doing NOTHING? I will let YOU answer what you got out of doing such an incredible but selfish act...
Well, I felt good, but then again, I can feel good by eating some eggs. I like to see it as me being altruistic as a result of parental near-abandonment issues. My parents split when I was young, and I barely get to see my dad (one day per week, if I'm lucky). Thus, I'm left with my less-than-ideal mother (to put it nicely). I at least have parents who I get to see, but I will be darned if another person would lose someone he/she cared about. I remember one time when we were too late, and the building started to collapse. A little boy's dad was still in the building. He tossed his son (who was too scared to jump) onto the trampoline device we use to catch people when they want to jump to safety, but we weren't quick enough to set up for the kid's dad. The place collapsed and when all was said and done, we found his body, completely burnt like an overcooked turkey. The look on that kid's face was the worst thing you could've ever seen. I only looked at it for a few seconds, but it felt like hours. He then asked me the most tear-jerking question ever: "If I wasn't so scared, would there have been enough time?" The worst part was that all I could do for him was give him a hug and someone else to cry with. That was his dad, my failure. I will carry that with me like everything else.
There is nothing I get out of doing what I do that actually logically justifies the risk of fire, collapsing buildings, smoke inhalation, heat exhaustion, etc. There are some things in this world that we do without selfish reasons. I know you meant well and only wanted to prove a logical point, but PLEASE don't say that everything people do is selfish, especially around a volunteer fire unit. You will receive a mouthful. I'm sorry if I came across as callous.
Anywho... I've digressed long enough.
Quote from: AlexD on December 30, 2012, 09:33:32 PM
(PS: is the anti-bot questioner sentient? It's asking me about fire engines. :p)
I don't even know what that means. ???
Quote from: EmSchuma on December 30, 2012, 09:36:00 PM
At the end of the day, selfishness is still just a human concept and there are many ways of looking at what we do.
Has anybody transitioned for somebody else? (the altruistic viewpoint). You could frame it this way: Staying alive but in the opposite gender would make your family happier than if you were to commit suicide. So looking at it this way, no you are not being selfish.
Way to flip-flop, Romney (sorry, I couldn't resist). :laugh:
Quote from: JessicaH on December 30, 2012, 09:49:32 PM
I disagree. Having children is one of the MOST selfish things we can do.
Especially when no one actually NEEDS kids. ;)
Quote from: AlexD on December 30, 2012, 09:54:15 PM
It's one reason why I'm not a fan of the "natural = good" argument. Nature is a brutal, unforgiving SOB.
I hear that! :)
Let's quantify the question and get a little bit scientific. A weighted cost/benefit analysis for the affected, defected and aggrieved parties.
no. Who Average discomfort level (ADL) x Hours per month effected (Time) =(WS) *weighted score(WS) =(ADL)(T)
1 Mom 6 30 180
2 Dad 8 02 16
3 Brother 7 10 70
Now, calculate and compare YOUR (WS) score against theirs considering that you have to spend an average of 730 hours a month in the wrong body to please people that may see you a few hours a month or year.
no. Who Average discomfort level (ADL) x Hours per month effected (Time) =(WS) *weighted score(WS) =(ADL)(T)
1 Me 8 730 5840
Would be interesting if someone smarter than me would take this idea and put some real science behind the numbers.
I think that was some good logic.
Quote from: DianaP on December 30, 2012, 09:56:22 PM
Way to flip-flop, Romney (sorry, I couldn't resist). :laugh:
I have no problem changing my views when new information in presented or when i've had more time to consider everything (or apparently when I think about Star Wars)
Allow me to simply relate the short-form story of my life. I was so afraid of offending anyone because I was incredibly shy that I spent my entire life masking my behaviours more and more over time. I also went above and beyond in both my jobs and volunteer charity work to the great detriment of my free time and eventually my health. I tried so hard to do what it took to please everyone, often ignoring my need for rest and recreation and going years without even a weekend vacation. I figured if I worked hard enough, long enough, that eventually it would pay off and I'd have time to myself and feel better. But the cycle never ended and I turned into a lifeless zombie, or perhaps more a robot flashing a smile on command and saying and doing all the right things while feeling horrible and doing nothing much but work, eat and sleep excessively. Because I am incapable of taking my own life I would have completely run myself into the ground eventually.
So I will tell you what I told my mother when I came out to her. Finally stepping back from all this and taking charge of my health and my emotional being no matter how anyone else feels about it represents the first truly selfish thing I will do in my life, but it is an absolutely necessary thing. I finally don't care about consequences - I could die happy tomorrow knowing that for once I took control and put myself first. For me transition is entirely selfish.
If your one like me,who (through most of your life) was a selfless person,putting others first,for example-giving your last dollar,your last bit of food or something like this,then yes those who have gotten used to you being this way,will 100% see you as selfish for putting yourself first in anything.My opinion is that it depends,if you are one who is so used to putting everyone else first,but being put last then you reach a point where it is your life or pleasing someone else then no i do not see it as selfish.So i guess in all,it depends on the person and how you are seen.
Quote from: EmSchuma on December 30, 2012, 10:25:16 PM
I have no problem changing my views when new information in presented or when i've had more time to consider everything (or apparently when I think about Star Wars)
It was a joke... *chirp, chirp*
Anywho, us transitioners who aren't suicidal: are we selfish? ??? :eusa_think:
Quote from: Violet Bloom on December 30, 2012, 10:27:50 PM
Allow me to simply relate the short-form story of my life. I was so afraid of offending anyone because I was incredibly shy that I spent my entire life masking my behaviours more and more over time. I also went above and beyond in both my jobs and volunteer charity work to the great detriment of my free time and eventually my health. I tried so hard to do what it took to please everyone, often ignoring my need for rest and recreation and going years without even a weekend vacation. I figured if I worked hard enough, long enough, that eventually it would pay off and I'd have time to myself and feel better. But the cycle never ended and I turned into a lifeless zombie, or perhaps more a robot flashing a smile on command and saying and doing all the right things while feeling horrible and doing nothing much but work, eat and sleep excessively. Because I am incapable of taking my own life I would have completely run myself into the ground eventually.
So I will tell you what I told my mother when I came out to her. Finally stepping back from all this and taking charge of my health and my emotional being no matter how anyone else feels about it represents the first truly selfish thing I will do in my life, but it is an absolutely necessary thing. I finally don't care about consequences - I could die happy tomorrow knowing that for once I took control and put myself first. For me transition is entirely selfish.
What's that? Could that be my huggy senses
tingling bounding?
:icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:
Quote from: DianaP on December 30, 2012, 10:31:27 PM
What's that? Could that be my huggy senses tingling?
Just a tingle, huh? I thought I was more stimulating than that ;)
(I very much appreciate the sentiment. Hugs back :icon_hug:)
Quote from: DianaP on December 30, 2012, 10:31:27 PMAnywho, us transitioners who aren't suicidal: are we selfish? ??? :eusa_think:
I hope my earlier post didn't make you think that only suicidal transpeople can be unselfish. That wasn't my goal at all -- it was just one example. Your feelings don't need to be extreme to be valid; "more worthy than thou" thinking is poisonous, if seductive. -_-
This article here suggests that what is really going on when we are being selfish for ourselves is simply being assertive and giving ourselves what we need.
QuoteIt seems that often it is not until we are much older, and no longer as dependent on our parents emotionally, that we begin to unlearn this association between actually being selfish, and asking for what we need in a relationship. Until we have achieved this distinction in our minds and take the risk to care for ourselves in ways that may, at times, not make others in our lives happy, our people-pleasing will actually hurt us (we are left with unspoken wishes, unmet needs, and a lot of resentment) and our relationships (don't you think that resentment is going to seep out sometime?). So perhaps a way to ease into breaking out of the people-pleaser role is to realize that you cannot truly please others until you please yourself.
http://drsusanaxtell.com/is-it-ever-right-to-be-selfish/ (http://drsusanaxtell.com/is-it-ever-right-to-be-selfish/)
Quote from: AlexD on December 30, 2012, 10:41:09 PM
I hope my earlier post didn't make you think that only suicidal transpeople can be unselfish. That wasn't my goal at all -- it was just one example. Your feelings don't need to be extreme to be valid; "more worthy than thou" thinking is poisonous, if seductive. -_-
It didn't, and I don't think that you have to be extreme to be valid. I simply saw the "being alive instead of dead as a service to others" idea being used frequently, so I was simply asking what the case would be for a non-suicidal person.
I don't think transition in and of itself is selfish. There are some situations where it could be considered selfish to transition, such that the lives you affect are very close, such as spouses and minor children that depend on you. And then there are things you do during transition that could be selfish, such as not providing properly for someone you are responsible for while using resources to transition.
A lot of people claim that transition is selfish because it affects them in some way(it doesn't even have to be directly) and those people are often being fairly selfish in their expectations.
The short answer is: "yes! and it is OK to be selfish in this case"
The more relevant question is how do you proceed when an spouse and children are involved?
Selfish implies it is a choice. No one asks straight men if being straight and a man is selfish.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 30, 2012, 10:50:08 PM
http://drsusanaxtell.com/is-it-ever-right-to-be-selfish/ (http://drsusanaxtell.com/is-it-ever-right-to-be-selfish/)
I like the article Shawn. Are you saying that transitioning is selfish?
Once again people, the topic isn't if transition is okay or when it's ok to be selfish (though those are welcome points :)) so much as just whether or not transition itself is selfish.
Quote from: opheliaxen on December 30, 2012, 11:03:43 PM
Selfish implies it is a choice. No one asks straight men if being straight and a man is selfish.
Well, that's a good point, except I wasn't saying that being gay or trans is a choice. However, whether you actually go through with transition or not is. :)
If the end result makes you a better person towards other people , then its not selfish, even if people feel hurt by your decision to transition.
Quote from: opheliaxen on December 30, 2012, 11:03:43 PM
Selfish implies it is a choice. No one asks straight men if being straight and a man is selfish.
Well, I have met an awful lot of selfish straight men! ;D
(And incase anyone thinks I'm picking on one group, there are an awful lot of selfish people out there of all stripes...)
Speaking personally, I think in all honesty my life growing up, coming to terms with who I am, and dealing with that on a daily basis is probably far more selfish than transition could ever be. Because throughout all that time, I've been more focused on myself and how I feel - how everything in the world affects me and my internal sense of self - whether I want to be or not. It's just how things filter through my mind. Feeling different in your own skin causes you to question yourself, your relationships with others, how other people treat you is a reflection on who you are. For me it's something that's difficult to get away from because there aren't a whole lot of things that don't impact that in some way. And in that, I think I'm rather selfish for constantly assessing how I fit into the world, and how it fits in with me.
I've lost some dear friends and made some enemies because of the effects that not transitioning has caused, mostly because I think I've been wrapped up in myself, and sometimes the misery that dysphoria and the all pervading feeling of being different, and not myself has caused. I have not been so outgoing and perhaps not as friendly as I could have been. Distancing myself from people in need when I could have done something simply because I was too busy thinking about how bad I was feeling myself.
That, I think, is very selfish. And while I wish it were not the case, unfortunately it seemed unavoidable.
In answer to the question, I suppose it's a matter of perspective. My own view is that transition is, in large part, an attempt to actually be rid of quite so much selfishness by allowing oneself to be able to focus outwards for once, instead of inwards through dealing with the discomfort that not doing it causes. And in the long term, to aim to be able to be more unselfish towards others and in general.
This reminds me of a striking, surprising comment from a close friend I was coming out to recently; a comment which shocked me and left me speechless (not an easy thing to accomplish ;) )
I had just told him and his wife about me and told them, as I have said before, I finally had a choice of writing my family a suicide note, or a transition letter. It was either accept myself of kill myself. To which his knee jerk response before he realized what he was saying, was to blurt out "... Maybe killing yourself would be better."
Needless to say, I was stunned. This is a very close friend I've known for years, not given to rash statements. He would never say such a thing if he had been thinking clearly, but under the shock of my revelation, it was an honest knee jerk reaction reflecting how abhorrent he found transition.
This friend has warmed to the idea a good bit, but is still not entirely comfortable with my plans. I still consider him a friend, but that comment hurt me deeply and the wound has still not healed.
Painful words hurt all the more from someone you care about.
Transition is only selfish, if there is some alternative available. If as many have said, there are two cures for dysphoria, transition and death, and if death is rejected as an acceptable alternative, then transition cannot be selfish. Perhaps the timing of transition may be more or less selfish, to the degree that can be managed at all. For most of us who are TS, questions of "selfishness" are irrelevant, transition seems to be inevitable.
JMHO YMMV
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 30, 2012, 11:37:06 PM
If the end result makes you a better person towards other people , then its not selfish, even if people feel hurt by your decision to transition.
I second that. If people just consider "transitioning is selfish" with no strings attached, so you're just generalizing what is to transition.
In many cases, we are just trying to figure out *who* we are. So it may *look* selfish at the first glance, but after realizing you can really become a better person just because there is a reason to laugh, to live after transitioning, it is a blessing to the person who transitions and the people involved just because life can become truer.
We should aim for telling the truth the better way we can, so that people can figure out what is going on. Some just may not grasp what we talk about, but that's life.
Sometimes it will hurt badly someone. But that's for the better. Better than living a secretive life and in many cases wishing to die, wishing to disappear, wondering if we can live another way that's not the way we need to...
When applicable, transitioning is just... needed.
Quote from: DianaP on December 30, 2012, 09:56:22 PM
I remember one time when we were too late, and the building started to collapse. A little boy's dad was still in the building. He tossed his son (who was too scared to jump) onto the trampoline device we use to catch people when they want to jump to safety, but we weren't quick enough to set up for the kid's dad. The place collapsed and when all was said and done, we found his body, completely burnt like an overcooked turkey. The look on that kid's face was the worst thing you could've ever seen. I only looked at it for a few seconds, but it felt like hours. He then asked me the most tear-jerking question ever: "If I wasn't so scared, would there have been enough time?" The worst part was that all I could do for him was give him a hug and someone else to cry with. That was his dad, my failure. I will carry that with me like everything else.
OMG sweetie. I can't imagine. <Big Hug> Please don't call it your failure. I'm sure you did everything you could.
You're performing an awesome and selfless service out there as you know.
As to the question, like Jamie and others, no I don't think transition is selfish in itself, though I suppose it can be in some circumstances.
I'll give my feeling despite being late to the party.
I'm seeing my transition as very selfish.
Instead of a husband whom she can count on and who enhances her status, my wife finds herself suddenly married to someone whose presentation embarrasses her and about whom she must explain and educate her friends. She never had the slightest interest in being married to a woman and now she must decide either to stay in a marriage that doesn't reflect her sexual orientation or to renounce her wedding vows and leave me at the very time I most need support.
My kids, instead of having a father they can be proud to bring their friends home to, are stuck instead with a female parent who is not their mother, and for whom they don't even have a name. My daughter will attend a school where her former father, and by association she, will be a object of attention, gawking, and possibly ridicule.
And I don't have to to transition. The choice is really clear. I COULD decide to continue living indefinitely as a male. The only consequence would be the daily regret of wondering how life would have been different if I'd had the courage to follow my dream and the incongruity of not living as I really am. Though that sounds unbearably bleak and painful, I have no doubt I'd be tough enough to endure it and resourceful enough to make the best of it.
No its not selfish.
I won't suffer for the comfort of others.
If anything, not allowing you to transition is selfish on the part of family, friends, society.
That's my opinion being young and single but for a married person with kids it might be a different story.
Thats a hard one because,if we look at the aspect of *hiding who we really are and that in its self is selfish* that can be debated on many levels.Depending on *why* you hide or push back what you know to be true,can be seen as non selfish.For example,when i first came out i seen my first reaction of my mother.I hid away and said to myself *well maybe it will just go away* but seeing how she reacted to that hiding plainly made me sick.Inside i suffered the most pain i have ever felt during that time,she told me i needed to be a better woman,how i needed to do this and that,how i needed to dress better so i stopped myself and thought *wait..if im being selfish then what is this? she already knew everything as i told her,about the suicide,about what it was doing to me and even knowing this,she wishs me to remain there?* so even during my *selfless denial for the benefit of others* i could not see myself as being selfish because in all honesty,had that been the case-i would still be doing it,i would still be taking those kicks.So what my point is,many deny their self for those they love and in return,yes get nothing back but guilt,pain and many other very bad outcomes.in my opinion,coming out in its self is best seen as being *selfish* BUT on a good scale.i can only speak by experience of what i know for myself but i have officially lost everything because i was *selfish*....but then agian i was the one who pampered everyone and put them on a high cloud above everything else so im to blame for that one
When I decided I had to transition, the only person it really would have affected was my father. We were living in the same house and had been for 10 years when I started hrt. I didn't tell him about the hormones until I was a year in and the effects of it couldn't be hidden anymore. Actually, his girlfriend had mentioned to him that it looked like I was on hormones as they both knew I had issues with gender. At about the same time, he was diagnosed with throat cancer and the house had been heavily damaged by Hurricane Isabel and the storm surge had flooded us. I had insurance to cover the flood damage and we were planning on doing major remodeling at the same time since it made the most sense. I gave him three choices, I could sign the house over to him and walk away, I could stay long enough to do the repairs and remodel and then sign it over and walk away or stay, do everything that needed doing and transition here, but either way I had to transition, he had no choice in whether I did that or not. He chose the latter and some might think it selfish of him in a way as he knew he needed me around as his disease progressed. It actually worked out well, he adjusted to me and even came to accept me as his daughter. After he passed I even found the first birthday card I gave him as his daughter as he had saved it and he wasn't generally one for saving that sort of thing. He even wanted to pay for my surgery, but I decided that it would be too selfish of me to take the money that should be used to make his last few years the best they could be under the circumstances. He actually beat the throat cancer, but not the lung cancer that came a little bit later.
The only person who did tell me I was selfish was my grandmother, but it was mostly because she thought I was hurting my father by wanting to do it. She preceded my dad in passing by three years when she developed lung cancer. None of my siblings took issue with it beyond a few minor hangups my brothers had to get over, but have since gotten over. They were just glad that I was there to take care of dad when they couldn't.
So yeah, people don't have to be selfish in the process of transitioning if they so choose, unfortunately, some feel they have to do it at all costs, even at the cost of causing major upheaval in the lives of those who may depend on them. I don't judge them for their choices though as I am not in their shoes just as they weren't in mine. It never seems right to condemn people for trying to find what makes them happiest in their lives.
Quote from: HthrRsln on December 31, 2012, 04:43:39 AM
This reminds me of a striking, surprising comment from a close friend I was coming out to recently; a comment which shocked me and left me speechless (not an easy thing to accomplish ;) )
I had just told him and his wife about me and told them, as I have said before, I finally had a choice of writing my family a suicide note, or a transition letter. It was either accept myself of kill myself. To which his knee jerk response before he realized what he was saying, was to blurt out "... Maybe killing yourself would be better."
Needless to say, I was stunned. This is a very close friend I've known for years, not given to rash statements. He would never say such a thing if he had been thinking clearly, but under the shock of my revelation, it was an honest knee jerk reaction reflecting how abhorrent he found transition.
This friend has warmed to the idea a good bit, but is still not entirely comfortable with my plans. I still consider him a friend, but that comment hurt me deeply and the wound has still not healed.
Painful words hurt all the more from someone you care about.
Transition is only selfish, if there is some alternative available. If as many have said, there are two cures for dysphoria, transition and death, and if death is rejected as an acceptable alternative, then transition cannot be selfish. Perhaps the timing of transition may be more or less selfish, to the degree that can be managed at all. For most of us who are TS, questions of "selfishness" are irrelevant, transition seems to be inevitable.
JMHO YMMV
I read that and my first reaction was hoping you spit on him and walked away forever. After thinking about it for a bit, I realized that I said the same damn thing to MYSELF when I finally realized who I was and what that meant. We struggle with this for a while and do lots of research as we are arriving at "self realization" and say a LOT of very negative things to ourselves.
That's why I don't think it's a good idea to come out to people in person because you are putting them on the spot. They go from sipping on a margarita over dinner to a sudden change of conversation that flips their world view upside down and as they try to get their head around this (holy ->-bleeped-<-, my best-friend/son/daughter is one of those freaks from Jerry Springer) they have no privacy to think out loud and do some research before responding to you.
Nope, for the same reason that being lesbian or gay is not selfish: It is your life, no one else has the right to tell you how you feel or toward whom to feel it. Period. That applies to parents, children, spouses, strangers. If anything, the person objecting to "your lifestyle" is the selfish party, forcing their own beliefs on you at the expense of your happiness.
Interesting question that I have been asking myself for years.
Only recently (last week) my therapist shared with me that "transitioning is medicaly neessary as it is impossible to fight and only gets worse over time". She also shared with me the Medical Necessity Statement from WPATH for some light reading. I am now on a quest to learn from those ahead of me how, when and who to see in Vancouver BC for help.
Suggestions please.
I feel more guilty about not transisioning than I would have done if I had had.