According to Newsweek, this seems awfully low, then again, I have met a lot of transwomen in my time in San Francisco and only remember a couple who are post-op.
Of course, if true, this makes becoming a post-op transwoman even sweeter as the club seems to be pretty exclusive.
Exclusive? hehehe. That's funny. And club no less? You are funny Melissa.
How are we all that different just cause we have a surgical procedure? I mean, sure... it means a lot to us individually. But to the external world and especially our friends, I'm not sure that it makes a huge difference.
Still, I'm sure the numbers are extremely low. I'd guess that there are fewer than a thousand GRS surgeries performed each year. There aren't that many surgeons doing it.
Does anybody know how many ops each surgeon does each year? Biber in his hey day would do three a week.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 13, 2007, 06:41:10 PM
Exclusive? hehehe. That's funny. And club no less? You are funny Melissa.
How are we all that different just cause we have a surgical procedure? I mean, sure... it means a lot to us individually. But to the external world and especially our friends, I'm not sure that it makes a huge difference.
Cindi
No difference? Between having a penis and a vagina? I mean, without it, what's the point. And the fact that you know you have one gives you a lot of power, that patch down there has been called the most valuable piece of real estate in the world. :)
I plan to let most of my friends (women) see mine. For me, it's going to be a HUGE difference since I am a lesbian, hard to be a full-fledged lesbian without a vagina. Also, it's going to make a big difference in the locker room.
Well, Melissa, I know how much it meant to me and it apparently is just as important to you as well. It did give me a whole lot of self confidence. But there's this carefully guarded secret hon... (there's no club). Shhh... don't tell anyone!
Cindi
QuoteI plan to let most of my friends (women) see mine. For me, it's going to be a HUGE difference since I am a lesbian, hard to be a full-fledged lesbian without a vagina. Also, it's going to make a big difference in the locker room.
I assume that you are going to wait until they ask, or until you are in a social situation where nudity is acceptable? Say a hottube, or community shower, a play party, or even skinny dipping. As a long time lesbian, I can tell you the last thing I would want is for some woman to come running up to me to flash her crotch at me. I think what you mean is that you are not going to hide your anatomy anymore, yes?
Quote from: Thundra on May 13, 2007, 09:05:24 PM
QuoteI plan to let most of my friends (women) see mine. For me, it's going to be a HUGE difference since I am a lesbian, hard to be a full-fledged lesbian without a vagina. Also, it's going to make a big difference in the locker room.
As a long time lesbian, I can tell you the last thing I would want is for some woman to come running up to me to flash her crotch at me.
Have you ever had a woman run up and flash her crotch at you?
I need, don't just want an orchiectomy.
I'm in New Mexico.
Please help if you have any info.
Thanks
edit: Deleted for my misinterpretation of the title line.
I would not have raised the point otherwise. Some people, in a celebratory mood I suppose, sometimes feel the need to share their joy with the world at large. But that is a little too friendly for me. Like I mentioned in the post, if it happened in the context of a specific social setting where full on female nudity is not an issue, no problem! But dragging friends into the bar bathroom for a viewing is a bit much for me. That is all.
I recall that Melissa goes to work out regularly. So I completely understand where she is coming from. BTW, I'm still extremely shy in public gyms and showers. I try to find private facilities whenever possible. This is a hang up I still have. Shame on Cindi.
Cindi
QuoteI think the number is very very low. I would believe 1 in 20 or 1 in 200, but 1 in 2000 seems very very far fetched. Its expensive, but not THAT expensive.
Doesn't that depend on your vocation, and education level? I personally know at least a dozen women where I live, right now, that would go for surgery if they could afford to. Even if they went to Thailand, the cheapest prices I've ever heard were in the 5K range. Add in airline flights, food and lodging and you probably need at least, what? 8K for the trip? A lot of people I have known all over the US can barely pay their rent.
Lots of guys have resorted to fundraisers just to get top surgery, usually at a lesbo bar, and that is cheap in comparison to what the women have to come up with for bottom surgery. Believe me, on a women's wages, 8K is a LOT of money! It would take me years to save that kind of cash, and only if I had no other bills to pay. I have a lot of respect for all of these kids that have the discipline to save up their money for whatever kind of surgery.
Most of the really young guys and gals that I have known to have transitioned right out of high school to surgery, had their families to pay for it. Otherwise, they suffer and save for years if not a decade or longer sometimes, to get enough money. And every year that goes by brings price increases.
I am thinking that one in 1000 or more women going for bottom surgery is probably accurate.
Probably quite a bit little lower for guys getting top surgery, say one in 200?
Yes, I'm sure that it is very rare indeed. We can see some inkling just here in the forum. Many of us struggle just to pay the basic bills. GRS seems like a quest for the holy grail for most of us.
Cindi
that sounds about right since only true transsexuals will seek grs.
Not quite sure what is meant by "women's wage". If you take into account that women entered the job market in big numbers later, work less hours and less dangerous jobs and traditionally had less education, the wage difference between men and women is not a lot. Any systemic gaps that remain are rapidly being close in the younger generation if a women does the SAME work as a men.
Most of graduating doctors are female (in Canada) and 60% of university graduate are female. There's only a few choice areas were female have not really invested in great numbers yet. As for low female wages, I've got 8 female cousins (from 25-34 y old) that all went to university and not one of them makes less than 50K, 2 make more 100K! My own sister's only 7 years out of university and making 80K
If your talking about the educated, getting the money for SRS shouldn't be an issue. The bank gave me a 22K line of credit and I had 9K credit on my credit card only 2 years out of university when I was making 50K. If your able to get credit, and are to live with the consequence of it, paying for SRS should not be an issue.
If your saying that most TS are not educated, or because of TS issues, so messed up, that they end up doing menial work; I am not sure that this is really substantiated, though I'm sure there's quite a few TS ekking a living (especially young ones kicked out by their parents).
My opinion is that the average wage in the US, male or female, should be enough, to eventually get you enough credit to get SRS if you really want it. Of course, if you destroy your credit rating through various means... It could be more difficult.
Keira,
I hope you never work for a company that has a good ole boys network or a glass ceiling! Yes times are changing for the better. I always encourage everyone to go to college. Life is expensive... and that doesn't figure in all the additional crap that we get to pay for. It's very difficult to get a good paying job without the sheepskin.
GRS doesn't cost more than a new car and most of us somehow manage to fanagle a new car at least once in our lives.
But I believe that the numbers of transsexuals are pumped up a bit. I think that we are much rarer than what is commonly thought. That's with and without surgery. And I have nothing to back up my opinion! ;)
Cindi
I completely misread the title line. Yeah...the number is believable, there are just not that many doctors performing it in the world. With that being said, with how few TS there are, 1000 to 2000 surgeries performed each year does not sound off base. For example, the DC area is said to have close to a few thousand TS (both FtM and MtF). The DC metro area is the fourth largest in North America.
As far as wage standards. Canada is a completely different country as far as these issues. It is generally speaking ahead of the curve with regards to income equality.
The US college admission rates are very similar to Canada. I think in ten years the effects of fewer men in college will be seen, and in my opinion it will not be a bad thing.
But speaking about TS women, very few do well. Its not a womens wage, its the general problem TS women face. Job discrimination and coupled with career paths that are not focused so much on educational qualifications. Less than 1/3 of TS women are in good paying jobs, and that 1/3 are highly educated in careers where they are more likely to be in a supportive work environment (I have to admit I fall into both of these being a research analyst with a JD at a progressive nonprofit, and trust me this was all planned out. I wanted a job which was both spiritually fulfilling, and where I could transition if needed). There is a Virginia study on the what trans people face as far as job challenges. I am fortunate this is not going to be an issue with me.
Its not a womens wage issue, it is a job discrimination issue.
QuoteIts not a womens wage issue, it is a job discrimination issue.
I respect your POV, but I totally disagree wth you. Most TS women simply fall into the same pay category as most other women without degree's, like myself. Sure, I have friends that are independently wealthy, but they are the minority. Most women with lots of money usually either have a master's degree or better, come from a family of means, or had a parrtner, usually male, that allowed them to improve their standard of living. If you look at most people filling low wage jobs, most of them (us) are women. And have you heard of the glass ceiling?
Women are almost always passed over in favor of a man applying for the same position.
Unlike any of you, I have never seen more than 25K in a given earnings year. I can tell you this much. If most TS women had to depend on the wage they would earn from the getgo to save up enough money for their surgery, the ratio of transitioning to surgery would be much lower than the numbers quoted here. Probably more like one in 5000 or more.
Sure, the wage gap between men and women is narrowing, especially for younger women with a higher education, but for the rest of us, that is not usually the case. Just the way it is, and always has been. Maybe Canada is different, but I don't know anybody with a line of credit up to 20K without borrowing against a house or other valuables.
Just look around the world. The majority of poor people are women, not men. And since it is the women charged with taking care of the children in most cases, the children suffer the consequences of the inequity. I hope that someday all the women here can have a wage equal to that of men, but I doubt that I will live long enough to see it.
If you truly believe that women make as much as men for doing the same work, than obviously, you have never suffered from wage discrimination like most women. I hope that you never do. Go and be young and happy.
So, the lesson is to get an education, right? ;)
I came from a lower class family. I paid my own way through college and worked my butt off. I am not wealthy. But I ain't gonna work if I don't want to!
Cindi
If you worked your way thru college, than I bet you are familiar with rice and beans, and ramen noodles, and cheese sandwiches, hmmm? Every person that I know that worked their way through college suffered a lot for what they earned. And some still don't make much more than me. I have already made peace with the fact I will work until I die.
While I respect your point of view Thundra,
I do think It skews your opinion mightely on this.
The role of women in society has changed much in the last 40 years and that alone introduces much distorsion in salary that is not part of systemic discrimination.
Women used to be less educated, they entered the workforce in great numbers after the 60's (so they've got less experience), had many children at an earlier age and it wasn't well seen to leave them at home to got to work; they tended to gravitate to white colar jobs, which traditionally were less paid than dirtier, physically harder jobs (there were hiring discrimation for these jobs, but mostly women stayed away on their own).
Also, even today many woman have a different view on the roles of careers, they often seek a better balance, in their lives (even in educated women these days) and thus tend to work less hours, less dangerous jobs, work less night shifts, and work more part-time jobs. Are woman's own choices an internalized form a discrimation? Should they be just like men and work 60 hours?
All of this coupled by the fact that it takes time for a changing of the guard to trickle upward in companies, makes the salary less a result of systemic discrimation, and more a result of a historical and current cultural influences.
Even in education, things are changing, women have moved away from liberal arts degrees which used to be their staples to more lucrative science, engineering and business degrees.
In the young newly graduating women I'd wager that the difference in salary accross the board for a similar number of hours worked in similar jobs is slight at worse.
You can say that its not fair that they've got this advantage over older women who carry within their career path the previous cultural bias; but times changes and hopefully, its always for the better.
As I said, I don't doubt that TS's who are disowned by their parents and kicked out at a young age suffer greatly cause they've got little education and got to fend on their own. But does that experience correspond to the experience of most TS's? While we don't have a census to confirm it; I would not be surprised that these days it does not.
Quote from: Thundra on May 15, 2007, 12:33:50 AM
QuoteIts not a womens wage issue, it is a job discrimination issue.
I respect your POV, but I totally disagree wth you. Most TS women simply fall into the same pay category as most other women without degree's, like myself. Sure, I have friends that are independently wealthy, but they are the minority. Most women with lots of money usually either have a master's degree or better, come from a family of means, or had a parrtner, usually male, that allowed them to improve their standard of living. If you look at most people filling low wage jobs, most of them (us) are women. And have you heard of the glass ceiling?
Women are almost always passed over in favor of a man applying for the same position.
Unlike any of you, I have never seen more than 25K in a given earnings year. I can tell you this much. If most TS women had to depend on the wage they would earn from the getgo to save up enough money for their surgery, the ratio of transitioning to surgery would be much lower than the numbers quoted here. Probably more like one in 5000 or more.
Sure, the wage gap between men and women is narrowing, especially for younger women with a higher education, but for the rest of us, that is not usually the case. Just the way it is, and always has been. Maybe Canada is different, but I don't know anybody with a line of credit up to 20K without borrowing against a house or other valuables.
Just look around the world. The majority of poor people are women, not men. And since it is the women charged with taking care of the children in most cases, the children suffer the consequences of the inequity. I hope that someday all the women here can have a wage equal to that of men, but I doubt that I will live long enough to see it.
If you truly believe that women make as much as men for doing the same work, than obviously, you have never suffered from wage discrimination like most women. I hope that you never do. Go and be young and happy.
The rate of TS to surgery is something like 1 in 47, but I have also heard 1 in 5, will have the surgery (once again I misread the the title, 1000-2000 will get it performed each year, taking we represent maybe 1 in 5,000 people at most, quite a few do get it). Again there are no exact numbers on this, because like many things involving TS tracking statistics is very very difficult.
Much of what is said is absolutely true, uneducated women, by in large struggle, especially when you add in kids. Also women out of college earn less than men out of college with the same exact degrees and the same exact it is something like females earn 80% of what men do. This has a little to do with career choice, as even when you factor in identical careers the pay gap still exists.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/23/news/economy/gender_gap/index.htm?cnn=yes
Keira, no offense, but in the US, the pay gap still exists, and not much has changed here in the last two decades. In fact it may be getting worse.
But I will also stand by my statement in the fact that most TS face an extra level of discrimination. This is especially true in the US, where documents frequently do not match up because of the fact SRS is often required to change them. Anybody who thinks that it is just about gender discrimination really needs to really think about things a bit deeper, because there is a reason gender identity laws non-discrimination laws are needed. How many people on this board have been fired from a job because of gender identity issues, I garuntee a vast majority. How many have struggled to find work once they lost thier job, quite a few. Most are not lucky enough to return to a previous income level and often do take menial jobs, and not because they want to. These are common experiences for TS in general living in the US, discrimination is rampant, and further south you go, the more likely you are to encounter it (well gender discrimination is pretty bad down there as well, the good ol' boys network is strongest in dixie).
Keira, no offense, but Canada is always a poor example when trying to compare these things, especially to the US, it is literally light years ahead of the US in terms of gender and gender identity non-discrimination laws. There are stronger laws and regulations in Canada. Things are still bad in the US, and it will take decades to get better. Or the Republican party completely collapsing (the republican party does shoulder much of the blame for the lack of legal protections for gender identity protections and the lack of equal pay laws, they continually block it).
The lesson here is get an education, as much of an education as possible. If your degree says Doctor or Master on it, you will be in much better shape. I put off dealing with my issues just to have this higher degree, because I was well aware of the reality that I faced.
The patriarchy is alive and well in the US.
Getting right back on topic, these are my best "guestimates" of current worlwide GRS surgeon's annual caseload (European, Antipodean, an N.American patients) ....
UK
Thomas 80
Bellringer 100
Terry 50
Thailand
Suporn 140
Chettawut 150
Sanguan 150
Preecha 100
Others 100
N.America
Brassard 90
Menard 25
Bowers 80
Meltzer 100
Alter 50
Others 100
Europe
Perovic 50
Others 200
Total 1565
I look forwards to being corrected on numbers, an omitted surgeons ...
But I think my guesses are reasonable, knowing what I do about surgeon's work practices (i.e. Suporn one patient a day split between SRS / FFS, Brassard 4 per week max but only working 30ish weeks per year, etc...)
So in light of this maybe 1200 US women having SRS each year, and 250 UK girls ?
Its a fact that about 5000 UK women have applied for passports in "new gender" which in the UK does not neccessarily require SRS, and government figures put the "full time / undergoing treatment" ts population (a minority of post-op) at 5 - 6000 too .... so I think for the UK 250 surgeries a year may be about right.
This is about 1 in 120,000 of the male population, 1 in 90,000 of the male adult population who undergo SRS in a given year (out of an m2f ts population numbering 1 in 10,000 of the male adult population) ...
Rare indeed !
Laura
Up to 2,000 people a year in the United States get this surgery, I think that is wonderful, it would probably be much higher if the costs of surgery were not unrealistically inflated.
It is funny "to me" to see the talk of job discrimination, wage differences, women being considered lower class. I really doubt that many of the people who have had surgery took those things into consideration.
This surgery is LIFE, to many of us.
Two thousand people a year getting this surgery should be something to put before the world, make them see how important it is to us that so many would go through it. Not having it available could potential lead to many more suicides.
I will shut up now.
Sarah L.
QuoteIn the young newly graduating women I'd wager that the difference in salary accross the board for a similar number of hours worked in similar jobs is slight at worse.
You can say that its not fair that they've got this advantage over older women who carry within their career path the previous cultural bias; but times changes and hopefully, its always for the better.
As I said, I don't doubt that TS's who are disowned by their parents and kicked out at a young age suffer greatly cause they've got little education and got to fend on their own. But does that experience correspond to the experience of most TS's? While we don't have a census to confirm it; I would not be surprised that these days it does not.
Actually Keira, we seem to agree on the points you have made. Educated women as a whole do much better overall, and especially within the TS women's group. But, if you look at the whole female poplation of working age, the results are still skewed toward wage discrimination being prevalent in the US at least, at this time. If the trend continues, it maye even out. You also have to remember that the US is way behind many other nations in the wealthier nations regarding education funding. As many people here could attest, in the US, if you are not born into a family of means, you had better be tenacious if you want to obtain any kind of degree, and even more willing to pay back a mountainous debt if you qualify for a loan program.
I know many women that earn a good wage after graduation, but live near poverty level while they pay back their loans. These are highly educated women I am referring to here. Conversely, those that pay their way through college often take years or the better part of a decade to receive their degree if they work fulltime while they go to school. And these women tend to suffer from long-term illness more frequently, because the first thing that is neglected when a person is short of money is healthcare. We do not have national healthcare in this country.
On that point, if you take a person that is suffering from GID, and I have known many, and force her first, to work her way through college, possibly without access to medical care, than she may have to wait five to ten years to obtain her degree. Without access to healthcare, she may even have to go without transitioning if she cannot afford HRT, or take black market drugs, which cause even more problems down the road. Then she may have to put off surgery while transtioning while she pays off her loans, while saving money for surgery. If that takes another say, three to five years, we are talking about a person with a serious stress problem working and going to school while waiting the better part ten to twenty years to have surgery.
Is it any wonder so few make it there, or commit suicide in the process? I don't think so.
Lastly, women have been competing on equal footing in the same jobs as men for decades now. I am a dyke, and so are most of my friends. We work just as hard, and get just as physically tasked and "dirty" as our male co-workers, if not more so. We have to do a better job than all the guys to even get noticed by management. This is the reality if you talk to most women in this country. There is still an undercurrent of institutionalized misogyny, just as their is still institutionalized rascism in this country, especially the farther south you live.
Trying to get back on topic, if you think about how those factors affect people of colour born TS in the south, well, those poor wretches have it harder than most. Factor in a lack of healthcare, and you have people in sexwork dying of aids. They cannot even see the glass ceiling from where they start.
I take issue only with this part of your post:
QuoteYou can say that its not fair that they've got this advantage over older women who carry within their career path the previous cultural bias; but times changes and hopefully, its always for the better.
Simply put, life is not fair. There have always been have's and have-not's. It is part and parcel of capitalism. I would only hope that if you are lucky enough to be have been born white, in a country with national healthcare, and access to education, that you might have some empathy for all of the women that have none of those advantages. As my 81 year-old Mother always says, walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you compare yourself to them.
Laura, your numbers were right on target. Thank you for taking the time to guesstimate.
Since this kind of surgery has been going on for only about 30 years or so, and only been seen as routine for the last ten, and taking into acct. that the numbers have been increasing exponentially with ahe addition of Thailand as a center for surgery, then:
even if we round up to 2000 surgeries per year over the last decade, that is still only about 20K post-op women. The previous decade probably saw half of that number at best, or maybe 10K? And the decade before that, even more so. Let's say, 5K. Even with those generous numbers, we are looking at a grand total of less than 40,000 post-op women, if everyone were still alive.
Taking into acct. that most people in the earlier years of this phenomenon had surgeries at a much older age than today, you can bet that at least some of those people have passed away by now, or are reaching that age. Which would reduce the number even further.
One thing that your list did not take into acct. is the fact that surgery in Thailand is a thriving industry, so I don't think these numbers properly reflect post-op women from either Thailand or the rest of the Pacific rim where this lifestyle is more accepted. My guess would be that there are more doctors in Thailand alone, performing this surgery, than in all the lists you can find on Susan's or any other website. People in this country only go to a select group of top surgeons overseas, but there are many more performing in that country on strictly nationals, rather than foreigners.
Which brings us back to the number most often thrown around by most doctors in the US.
That it is believed that there are only about 20,000 post-op women in the entire world.
That number may be low? But when you consider that the population of the planet is like 6.5 billion people, and if half of them are born appearing male, or 3.25 billion, than even if there were 100,000 post-op women on the planet, that would be 3 one-thousands of one percent?
That is incredibly rare.
If even 5% of the male-appearing population had GID, or 162 million people, and 100,000 had surgery, that would be six thousandths of one percent of all people with this form of GID. If it were one percent of the same population, than it would be three tenths of one percent.
Anyway you slice it, it is a pretty rare situation to find yourself in. It would be like if you were the only person with that status being in the average movieplex. Since most people seem to congregate in one area, the chance of meeting another person with your condition, in most of this country on an average day would be pretty unlikely.
Completely different than the situation we find ourselves in the lesbian community. Odds are that in the next generation or so, you will be hard pressed to find ANY butch women, since most all of them will have transtioned and had top surgery.
I may be amongst the last of my kind.
Quote from: Thundra on May 15, 2007, 01:27:10 AM
If you worked your way thru college, than I bet you are familiar with rice and beans, and ramen noodles, and cheese sandwiches, hmmm? Every person that I know that worked their way through college suffered a lot for what they earned. And some still don't make much more than me. I have already made peace with the fact I will work until I die.
Familiar? They are still staples! Througout my life, I have been fairly frugal. Oh I spend when there is something I want, but normally, I have saved my extra cash instead of eating out a lot or just generally blowing it. I've invested it and made a little money. It's not a lot, but it will get me through to retirement when other things kick in. That's if I continue to eat rice and beans and cheese sandwiches! ;) I run a little business that supplements it.
I would not have been able to do this without my degrees from college.
(I really do like rice and beans! I don't however eat cheese sandwiches.)
Cindi
"Only One to Two Thousand American Women Have SRS Each Year?"
That's not that small a number. Over 20 years that 20,000 - 40,000. Over 60 years it's 60,000 - 120,000.
Ever read Lynn Conway's paper on the topic?
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html
I have had new cars. They are relatively easy to get. Sign some papers, hand over very little cash, drive away, and make payments. Trying to get $16-20K personal loan? Better have some property and/or make a pretty decent wage especially now that banks are getting burned for loaning out so much to people who should not have been able to afford a house.
I make a decent wage but it is barely enough to get by on, let alone obtain surgery. I am one of those that will never be able to unless someone either pays for it or pays for most of it for me. It's depressing and one of the reasons that I am on meds for depression.
Some of the older gals I know are cashing in retirement accounts early in order to obtain SRS. Personally I think it is a huge mistake on their part but that is the only way they can lay out so much cash up front.
I think it is ridiculous that I have paid in so much money across the years to various insurance companies and now face not only them not covering surgery but if they find out my status I could lose my coverage for everything else.
Hopefully the next generations will not have so much to deal with and can focus on enjoying their lives more.
I think most TS women who really want surgery get there in the end, and that its a very small minortity who really can never ever find the means.
It might take many years but surely its worth any "sacrifice" for the most important "purchase" one makes in one's life !
Don't buy that new car on a hp deal, but run an old banger, and put the money you would be paying in installments away in the bank. Work all the hours you can, put transition on hold if it means you can earn more in a "male" job, get as much credit as you're able. $16k (e.g. full cost of Brassard) is $4k per year over four years .... borrow some and its even less, go to Thailand and its less still.
For most ts women its living "as women" and hrt that primarily matters, as long as there is a sight of surgery at the end of a tunnel.
Although UK women might get "state funded" surgery if they live under the right health authority, its usually a 4 - 5 year journey, and many eventually scrape the means to pay privately.
Certainly if you're professional, or on a "median" wage in the UK, finding the cost of GRS is no big deal.
P.S. a diet of rice, beans and ramen noodles sounds really healthy .... were it that the rest of the American (not to mention UK) population would take it up to stem the growing epiemic of obesity !
Laura
Quote from: Thundra on May 15, 2007, 01:27:10 AM
If you worked your way thru college, than I bet you are familiar with rice and beans, and ramen noodles, and cheese sandwiches, hmmm? Every person that I know that worked their way through college suffered a lot for what they earned. And some still don't make much more than me. I have already made peace with the fact I will work until I die.
if you are what you say you are you will do this and even more to obtain grs.
QuoteI think most TS women who really want surgery get there in the end, and that its a very small minortity who really can never ever find the means.
I have always found it ironic, that most people seem to feel that the way to prove that they are a "real" transsexual is to be succcessful living as a male, making money as a male, and being successful in that endeavour. Your opinion is of course as valid as my own.
My observation has been through the years, that it is the tortured souls that suffer the most, and end up dying by their own hand, incidentally or accidently, that stick out to me as having the most qualities I would consider female, feminine, and womanly.
I find it disturbing that the attitude toward those people that do not have the means, or cannot find the means within themselves, to be rather callous and hateful, if not condescending. Those qualities, that I usually reserve for the male gender.
I have said it before, and I will say it again. The transitioning process is set up and designed by men, and leaves little room for empathy or sympathy. It rewards those most able to put aside the emotional torture they suffer from GID.
And I wonder how valuable SRS or GRS will be considered if and when it is readily available to all facets of this underserved population -- when it is no longer a holy grail that proves something, but rather, is just another medical procedure.
When you look at how many people undergo this procedure in Thailand, from all economic levels, because the surgery IS more affordable to everyone there and more accepted by society, you begin to realize how twisted the process has become in ths country. It's very sad to me.
Quote from: Thundra on May 15, 2007, 05:51:38 PM
I have always found it ironic, that most people seem to feel that the way to prove that they are a "real" transsexual is to be succcessful living as a male, making money as a male, and being successful in that endeavour. Your opinion is of course as valid as my own.
My observation has been through the years, that it is the tortured souls that suffer the most, and end up dying by their own hand, incidentally or accidently, that stick out to me as having the most qualities I would consider female, feminine, and womanly.
I find it disturbing that the attitude toward those people that do not have the means, or cannot find the means within themselves, to be rather callous and hateful, if not condescending. Those qualities, that I usually reserve for the male gender.
I have said it before, and I will say it again. The transitioning process is set up and designed by men, and leaves little room for empathy or sympathy. It rewards those most able to put aside the emotional torture they suffer from GID.
I have a lot of sympathy for youngsters who's lives are messed up from an early age by their transsexuallity ... they if anyone should be provided for and prioritised for state funded treatment. Is there any way an 18-19 year old could get SRS in the USA unless financed by their parents or parent's insurance ?
But saying that being a "tortured, despairing, helpless, hapless, semi-suicidal soul" is exhibiting "feminine and womanly values" is so stereotypical in the most demeaning way of women.
Women are more goal centred an motivated than men when the goal is important to them, and are likely to get on with things without drama or fuss. My young women colleagues have been far more career motivated than their male counterparts ... and have had everything kind of planned out, work goals, family, children, career after children. Women do better at every level of education than men these days.
When I had emotional periods during transition my mum's reaction was "pull yourself together ... you're a woman ... so you need to be stronger, quicker, more decisive, harder working than any man ... its the way women are !"
Laura
QuoteWhen I had emotional periods during transition my mum's reaction was "pull yourself together ... you're a woman ... so you need to be stronger, quicker, more decisive, harder working than any man ... its the way women are !"
:) True enough, for some. But then, you were lucly that you had a mum to support you, and that is the point I was trying to make. Women come in all shapes sizes, and have all kinds of characteristics, and abilities. Some are definitely more gifted than others. I am happy that you had support and someone to redirect you when you were in need.
But, for those that do not have that support system, well, many fall by the wayside. That does not make them any less TG or TS or anything else. It makes them less employable, less able to have the means that you did, and less able to successfully transtion or to stay alive.
While I respect your opinion, I have seen far too many people hurt by the current "system" of medical coverage for this population, both m2f and f2m. Making money and having surgery proves nothing, but that you have initiative and drive, neither of which is a trait limited to male or female persons.
So I go back to your comment:
QuoteI think most TS women who really want surgery get there in the end, and that its a very small minortity who really can never ever find the means.
I think that it is a very sizeable majority that never find a way to get surgery, especially if you use the experience in Thailand as an example. If surgery is available, plentiful, and affordable, than my belief is that you would see a ten-fold increase in bottom surgery for women, that you have seen in top surgery for men.
But then, that is just my opinion; I have been around a VERY long time, seen the rise of just about everything trans, and I am older than dirt.
I would just ask that we all use a little more tact in presenting our thoughts, and have a little more sympathy for those not as well off as you, regardless of how hard you worked to get where you are in life.
Nobody deserves to suffer, and everyone deserves recognition of their basic human dignity.
I would pose this question to the crew here. If only 2K women have bottom surgery each year, but many more desire it, do you think that it is a good thing if they cannot, regardless of the reason? If someone needs dental work, or any other medical procedure, but cannot afford it, do you think that is a good thing? Or do the people that post here feel that an inability to make money is a measurement of whether someone deserves medical coverage?
Thundra,
We live in very different worlds,
the women that I know on a personal level
from the shop assistant to VP of finance, do not fit your description.
In spite of their lack of a "male privilege" of increasingly dubious value, they live full mostly happy lives. Since I first read female mags in the 70's, what's expected of women and what they expect of themselves has changed much, my own views followed and I've never felt as positive about being a woman than now. I truly believe that the world (at least in the western world) is made for a women to make her mark and if there is still a glass ceiling, it is there to be smashed!
The most adjusted person I've seen is my 22 year old lowly paid hairdresser (its a local neighborhood hair salon), who still manages to travel once a year, owns a second hand car and talks calmly of what she wants out of life, including children a house, etc. I envy her a confidence, a confidence I never had!
As for the US being different. I lived in the SFO several years and at least for women in software engineering and engineering management, I didn't see any overt discrimination; on the pay list (which I had access to), the women of same qualification as men had the same pay. Too bad that women are still reluctant to chose this vocation (Its stereotyped as nerdsville).
Quote from: Thundra on May 13, 2007, 09:05:24 PM
. As a long time lesbian, I can tell you the last thing I would want is for some woman to come running up to me to flash her crotch at me.
OMG I.Can't.Stop.Laughing.
THAT was too funny and oh so real!
I personally believe that GID destroys most of us by the time we reach our twenties. It is so strong that it pushes most other worthy pursuits from our minds. I believe that most of us end up in hopeless situations drowning in poverty. While my experiences are definitely anecdotal, I have met and become familiar with scores of transgendered women. Very few managed to achieve surgery. Most can hardly find or keep a job to barely get by.
Those few of us who manage to make it to this forum are on the top end of those who are successful. We've somehow managed to keep ourselves educated and have found employment... at least enough to purchase and know how to use a computer. I don't believe that we are representative of the general TS population. In fact, we are a very small part of it.
The numbers bandied about here seem reasonable to me insofar as the estimates of number of surgeries go. It would be so terribly interesting to have a census on how many of us simply exist in the country. For all the negative attention we get, you'd think that half the population were TS!
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 15, 2007, 09:13:39 PM
I personally believe that GID destroys most of us by the time we reach our twenties. It is so strong that it pushes most other worthy pursuits from our minds. I believe that most of us end up in hopeless situations drowning in poverty. While my experiences are definitely anecdotal, I have met and become familiar with scores of transgendered women. Very few managed to achieve surgery. Most can hardly find or keep a job to barely get by.
Those few of us who manage to make it to this forum are on the top end of those who are successful. We've somehow managed to keep ourselves educated and have found employment... at least enough to purchase and know how to use a computer. I don't believe that we are representative of the general TS population. In fact, we are a very small part of it.
The numbers bandied about here seem reasonable to me insofar as the estimates of number of surgeries go. It would be so terribly interesting to have a census on how many of us simply exist in the country. For all the negative attention we get, you'd think that half the population were TS!
Cindi
Cindi I totally agree with you here. Since Brooke came out to me I have done a trememndous amount of research online, in libraries and bookstores etc. Nearly every source gives different statistics. It is really hard to gauge with any kind of accuracy. Another member posted somewhere in this thread about how many go stealth. I would imagine the numbers of pre-ops in hiding and the number of post-ops gone stealth would be eye opening, then toss in those here and other places like it as well as those who don't have the enabling resource of an education, a job and a computer.
QuoteAs for the US being different. I lived in the SFO several years and at least for women in software engineering and engineering management, I didn't see any overt discrimination; on the pay list (which I had access to), the women of same qualification as men had the same pay. Too bad that women are still reluctant to chose this vocation (Its stereotyped as nerdsville).
Keira,
I laud you for your initiative, your drive, and determination, and obviously your intelligence.
It is obvious that you are the whole package, of the modern woman, educated, savvy, and self-empowered, which are all very admirable attributes.
But I have a feeling that you are out of touch with the average woman, that is not educated.
Not to mention the fact, that not all people are cut out for higher education. The world needs all kinds of talented people, doing all kinds of varied tasks. Not all people are cut out to be a computer geek, as you use the term, emotionally or in the way they process information.
Using myself as an example, although I possess a higher than average IQ, I am able to understand technical instructions, and I am generally acknowledged as being a very hard worker, I suck at some basic skills like typing. I have tried training programs, classes, and individual instruction to no avail. My inability to type rapidly with precision prevents me from winning many positions for which I am well qualified otherwise. It seems silly, but it is true.
Other people lack the temperment to do certain kinds of work, like say customer service.
The bottom line, is that not all people are qualified to do your kind of work, for reasons other than skill level, and many don't want to do that kind of work. Maybe they are not suited to working in an office? I excell out in the field, and think well on my feet, but other people are terrified to be without a structured work program, or an office to sit inside.
What I am alluding to, is that we appreciate that you have skills that make you successful, but not all people would be as successful as you even if they had your training, so yes, we are all different. There are always going to be baristas, because who else is going to make your mocha latte for you? And we need people to drive products from place to place and to transport people within the city on busses. But if those people, that we need in those jobs, have a medical need, should they be denied a procedure based on the fact that the job they do, that benefits all of us in some way, does not pay enough for them to obtain that procedure?
It is a very fundamentally basic question, of whether we as a society, are willing to let people go without having their medical needs covered because they are not as competitive as the next person? If you think that is OK, than does that infer that you are also OK with people that cannot fulfill the same need that you were able to fill through your own hard work and drive? I personally, do not care for the way things are currently handled regarding this problem.
If your talking about the average and low wage earner in the US (and even the higher ones if they don't have the proper insurance) teetering an illness (mental or physical) away from total ruin, I am totally with you on that one!! The current social safety net in the US is pathetic and if your not at the top of the heap, you seemingly may as well be dead!! Its a kind of darwinian logic that harks back to the barrons of the 1900.
But, that's not just the lot of women. Although, women may be represented in larger numbers here because they often have the "burden" of caring for children, when they barely afford to feed themselves.
As for the TS population. I think that there are various stratum and obviously the online population is not representative of the lower financial rungs of the TS population. Those that come from poor families suffer the same consequence of this poverty and then some.
So maybe I am a "victim" of my sunny canadian POV (we have a social safety that gives even the lowest rung TS a chance at seeing the sun).
And Thundra, I am not "all that", trust me on that one ;-); I am filled with montains of unconquered fears! Though I'd admit to a high yet underutilised intelligence :-).