Hi, I just wanted to ask what is it with Christian religions believing God hates transexuals? This is really bothering me because I am a Mormon and while I do believe my religion's basis and founding is true (that the founder, Joseph Smith, did indeed see God and his son, and did, indeed, restore the true gospel.) things like the churches policy against gender reassignment surgery and their intolerance for homosexuality, lead me to believe that the modern leaders of the Latter Day Saints... might not be true prophets of God, as they claim (I believe that Joseph Smith was... but after that I have to wonder...). I know what I have, better than those men who speak up on that podium... and its not a simple sexual fancy. Its a physical defect, plain and simple. saying that a transexual who undergos sex reassignment surgery is a sinner is like saying a person that goes through laser surgery to treat their blindness is going to hell.
The main reason this bothers me a lot is because I love both God and Jesus, and I do believe that my religion is true... but do not believe that God would punish a person (apparently church policy is that they will not let you marry if you get the surgery... -_-) for correcting a disorder they where born with and being true to themselves and to others. As far as I see it now, I'm just decieving myself and my fellow church members by being a "male" on sundays. I am a female holding the priesthood, which is only supposed to go to males, and I can't stand it!
As far as their reasoning behind the policy... I can understand it... but only to a certain extent. God did indeed command us to repopulate the earth... but wouldn't he be just as happy if I got married and then adopted children, who would be without parents elsewise? And what of all those people who have not been blessed with a spouse and die single... Are they going to be punished in the afterlife because they did help repopulate the earth? I think not. As far as I see it, God loves all... and its just the churches who discriminate.
Sorry for ranting... Its just this has been bothering me for a while... and I was hoping to discuss it with other Trangendered Christians (or even better: other Transgendered Mormons). I also consider myself Gay (that is I like other females) so theres conflict with the church there aswell, when I do go ahead and get sex reassignment surgery done.
Chandra, I was Mormon too. I grew up in the Salt Lake City area, went on a mission, married in the temple, and had children. They excommunicated me for going into a women's restroom at work after going "full time". No kidding. I was the only one to have ever used that particular restroom too. It was on a floor of a new building that hadn't been leased out yet.
As for the answer why? If you are studious, check out the references in the Holy Bible about "eunuchs". That's what they called us in Biblical times. Don't let your church leaders in on the secret. You'll get them all confused and it might squish their testimonies. ;)
This is a favorite of mine from Daniel chapter 1 about 4 eunuchs:
QuoteAnd in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
They loved eunuchs back then. Not so much now.
Here's another oldie but goodie from Mathew chapter 19:
QuoteFor there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
Tell them that you want to be a eunuch. And when that's done, let them in on the skirt secret.
Yeah.. right... like that's gonna work!
I'd be happy to answer any questions for you. I also wrote my story and published it last year.
Cindi
there will always be people who try to validate their own choices by questioning you for making different choices. some you can talk to, some it's best to just ignore because try as you may you will not rescue them from their mental blocks nor squeeze from their mental prisons an ounce of understanding. tsk tsk tsk
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 16, 2007, 01:29:08 AM
Chandra, I was Mormon too. I grew up in the Salt Lake City area, went on a mission, married in the temple, and had children. They excommunicated me for going into a women's restroom at work after going "full time". No kidding. I was the only one to have ever used that particular restroom too. It was on a floor of a new building that hadn't been leased out yet.
As for the answer why? If you are studious, check out the references in the Holy Bible about "eunuchs". That's what they called us in Biblical times. Don't let your church leaders in on the secret. You'll get them all confused and it might squish their testimonies. ;)
This is a favorite of mine from Daniel chapter 1 about 4 eunuchs:
QuoteAnd in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
They loved eunuchs back then. Not so much now.
Here's another oldie but goodie from Mathew chapter 19:
QuoteFor there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
Tell them that you want to be a eunuch. And when that's done, let them in on the skirt secret.
Yeah.. right... like that's gonna work!
I'd be happy to answer any questions for you. I also wrote my story and published it last year.
Cindi
Excommunicated for that? Sounds pretty silly in my opinion... I mean its not like it really hurt anyone.
I would like to know... Will the church Excommunicate me for getting Sex Reasignment Surgery? If they do, I don't care much. Its not the real church if it punishes people for becoming their true selves. I believe in the religion, not in the orginization formed around the religion. Like I said in my last post, I still have doubts that Bringham Young and those who succeeded him where truly prophets... especially since I read up that there was a dispute over who would succeed Joseph Smith (and theres some things Bringham Young did and said while president that i just don't trust). As far as I see it Joseph Smith restored the truth, not Bringham Young or Gordan B Hinkley (or any of the other church presidents). I'm not to sure how much you agree with the church after being excommunicated... but this is how i've been feeling, personally, about it. I would rather not be excommunicated, since i feel going to church on Sunday is spiritually uplifting, but I want to become my true self. So even if they give me the boot... I'm going to go ahead with Hormone Therapy and Surgery. I can always read the Bible, Book of Mormon and D&C at home if they won't welcome me in the "house of the lord"
Which leads me to another question... do you still believe in the basics of the religion (book of mormon, word of wisdom, etc.) even after being excommunicated? I'm just curious.
The official stance from church authorities is that excommunication is mandated once you have surgery. That is the ONLY mention of transsexualism in the church documents. However, local authorities can and do speed up the process at their discretion. Hinkley has been a bit softer on gays and transsexuals than his predecessors.
I did truly believe in "the Church" when I was excommunicated and that act was devastating in my life. But I've done just a little research since then... it doesn't take much to make that house of cards fall. I invite you to research the translation of the Book of Abraham by Smith. He actually copied the drawings from the apocrypha into the printed version of the official church scripture. Get out your Pearl of Great Price and thumb through the pages to find them. Now these apocrypha still exist and have been translated by well known Egyptologists. They are not the book of Abraham. They are funerary documents for a relatively minor government official. It's all online. A professor and Egyptologist at BYU who correctly transltated these documents was threatened with his membership if he didn't recant. He recanted. Take a look at the pictures. See the little pictures of containers for the organs of the deceased? Even those of us who watch the History Channel now know what those containers are. But Joseph Smith didn't know that.
Also, if you can get into the church history, read the "School of the Prophets" lessons that Smith wrote. His concepts of the godhead are interesting in the beginning..... that doctrinal foundation of the church changed significantly in the early years.
Have you read the Book of Mormon? I mean really read it? Have you noticed how Isaiah is copied word for word? Have you noticed that there is no possible way that archeological evidence supports anything in that book?
Okay.. I could go on for days about obvious problems with the Mormon doctrines. And I do not want to discourage anyone in their faith or make light of it. But I was always taught that "the Church" was true, that it was led by a prophet of god. In other words, it is perfect. And if you can find merely one tenant that is obviously false, the entire structure is rotton in my book.
It took me a long time to recover from being rejected. I was a cultist member. Some people regard the Mormon church as a cult. I don't think that it is quite a cult. It could easily be one with just a few changes, but in its current state it is not. It does however create cultists in its membership. And I was one. Without it, I felt I was going to die.
But with my expulsion, my life has become free. I can't believe how strong those bonds were. I can't believe how they affected my life in a negative way. I've since been able to pursue my life in a very positive way. I am totally free without those encumbrances to live a happy life without feeling guilty.
Chin up!
Cindi
As for it being contradictory. I wouldn't say it's necessarily contradictory, but it may be contradictory to a specific church/temple doctrine. This is a common theme, only because you have to understand the majority of this planet's religions evolved in a time where there wasn't science and other means to attest to the validity of such things as the transsexual condition, so their doctrines formed in opposition accordingly, in ignorance and fear of what its founders could not grasp. As our species has seen, religions can and do change with new knowledge, new information. Today, the concept of anti-mixed racial marriages are not even in the mainstream doctrine of Christian churches (Catholic or otherwise). Basically, it means it takes time for religions to update themselves, they're like old programs, slow to change and slower to integrate with new standards. It's best to find a church that has updated its doctrine to fit the facts, you'll be better accepted and it'll probably be a funner church too in regards to other activities.
-- Brede
Is it possible for some disenfranchised Mormons to break from the main church and create their own updated and more inclusive sect? Isn't that how Protestantism come from catholicism?
Just a thought.
The church I go to is all inclusive, you can be of any denomination or belief and still be welcomed. We believe in science and the progress of humanity and it is all pulled together by Love. We don't talk around issues either. Dissent is actually encouraged because you cannot have a strong community if you don't allow all ideas to be considered.
I'm not trying to convert you. Just show you that it's possible to build a nice community where people can be safe.
I knew an mtf TS that was a Mormon, many years ago. I haven't talked to her since, but she was still active within the Church to my knowledge, and they were none the wiser to her presence.
-- Brede
... and yet there is a fundamental flaw with following a faith that contradicts your very existence. I can't tell you the horrible struggle it is to live with yourself if you actually believe the doctrines.
I agree that if you have a real need to exercise your faith, it behooves you to find something that will uplift you and give your life worth instead of ripping it apart.
When I lived in Salt Lake City, I attended the MCC where I was welcomed with open arms. They helped me so much in a time of my life where I was beaten down and ready to leave this life. They were so kind and accepting. When I moved to California, I did seek out the local chapter but the connection was not there. You just need to find that space where you are comfortable.
But no matter what... don't feel guilty! Guilt will ruin your life. There is nothing godly about making someone feel worthless through guilt.
Cindi
They say that God is neither male nor female. If humans are made in God's image, maybe he created men in female bodies and women in male bodies to reflect this.
No matter what your faith, you know who you are, and you know it is right to be true to yourself, despite what others say.
I've tried to stay out of this and for the most part will. I am not a Mormon. LDS doctrine baffles me. But I am a Christian. Must these two contardict? My own opinion of them is that they wouldn't if people would learn to read the Bible for themselves, rather than see it through centuries of cultural mininterpretation. Cindi has already given you two applicable quotes. My personal favorite is found in Acts 8:27f where an Ethiopian eunuch is received in full fellowship into the church and is baptized. Kind of hard to get around that story for me.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
They are not mutually exclusive. They could not rationally be.
In many parts of the Bible they say you go to Hell for murder. But in other parts of the Bible God forgives someone for murder. People make many choices with their lives, but the one single thing that is unforgivable in the Bible is: blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Not like 'oh my God' but something worse. Not sure what exactly but you get the gist of it. So technically from scripture, there it is: you don't go to hell for being a transsexual.
So I wonder what constitutes blasphemy against the Holy Ghost?
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 16, 2007, 11:55:00 PM
So I wonder what constitutes blasphemy against the Holy Ghost?
Cindi
To my knowledge, most scholars, not all, think it's disbelief in God. So being an atheist is the ultimate sin by most church's doctrines. Again, most, not all.
-- Brede
Thank you for your responses, everyone. I'm actually have begun to question my religion, and at the moment I feel that maybe I should just have a personal relationship with the lord, instead of putting my faith in a church or in the words of men or the words of a book. I believe that God is within my heart, and because of that I must follow my heart to know what is right. And my heart is indeed telling me that there is nothing wrong with the fact that I am a transexual.
Besides there where many things in my church, other than this, that bothered me... like the fact that women are treated as if they are inferior to men, and that black people where not allowd to hold priesthood until 1978. These things just don't seam right to me, especially since God loves all his children equally... and for the longest time I tried to come up with Illogical reasons for them... I guess when it all boils down there is one logical reason for these things: Mormonism is not of God.
On the bright side, the Book of Mormon is a pretty good novel. ^_^
Chandra,
Basically, that's what I had to do. I could not reconcile the fact that I knew I was a good person but was being accused of commiting a sin second only to murder. It made no sense to me.
My best to you. I hope you can get it all sorted out, break the bonds of guilt, and live free of all that.
Chin up!
Cindi
Quote from: shiva on May 16, 2007, 11:47:05 PM
In many parts of the Bible they say you go to Hell for murder. But in other parts of the Bible God forgives someone for murder. People make many choices with their lives, but the one single thing that is unforgivable in the Bible is: blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Not like 'oh my God' but something worse. Not sure what exactly but you get the gist of it. So technically from scripture, there it is: you don't go to hell for being a transsexual.
However, you are more likely to go to hell if you are a transsexual
and are wearing ugly shoes.
I am a Christian, transgendered and a crossdresser. God still loves me and cares for me. He is interested in my heart, not my gender, possessions, or looks. My testimony is on the website listed below. Click 'What's New', then click 'Transgender and A Christian'. Feel free to comment on it and ask questions.
Gennee
Website: www.epistle.us
God hates whatever you hate. That's how it works for most "Christians".
~ Blair
Quote from: Zombies on May 17, 2007, 12:43:27 PM
My god hates New Jersey
Um... I like cheese. :3
-- Brede
My God hates me getting up in the morning.
My God hates cruelty to animals and capital punishment.
Now you're all getting it down pat. Keep this up, and we'll have a dozen new religions by tomorrow.
~ Blair
Quote from: Blair on May 17, 2007, 01:16:37 PM
Now you're all getting it down pat. Keep this up, and we'll have a dozen new religions by tomorrow.
~ Blair
And to all, I say, forget creating a dozen new religions.
We shall all worship Blair!!!(huzzah, huzzah!)
Quote from: Chandra21 on May 16, 2007, 01:23:39 AM
As far as their reasoning behind the policy... I can understand it... but only to a certain extent. God did indeed command us to repopulate the earth... but wouldn't he be just as happy if I got married and then adopted children, who would be without parents elsewise? And what of all those people who have not been blessed with a spouse and die single... Are they going to be punished in the afterlife because they did help repopulate the earth? I think not. As far as I see it, God loves all... and its just the churches who discriminate.
I am not TS, I am a Christian.
Here is what I believe, it's really pretty simple.
God created ALL of us with all of our imperfections, flaws, discrepencies, weaknesses, defects, illnesses, deformities and so on...I believe there is a reason for everything and it is not up to me to know all those reasons. That my job on this earth is to live my life according to His Word as best I can and that that alone is according to His plan for me.
I believe I was born imperfect on purpose. If I were born perfect I would have no basis for comparison with others. If you were born perfect, I would have no compassion for imperfection. If I have no basis for comparison and have no compassion for differences then I could never understand. Understanding I believe is what love truly is all about and our purpose here is to find that love.
Churches et all teach about love with strings attatched. Love has no strings because love is not a puppet. It is a truth that is inside us all.
My god loves all of you. Unconditionally.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 17, 2007, 01:21:03 PM
My god loves all of you. Unconditionally.
Cindi
heh I think we just said exactly the same thing (look up) yet you did it with so fewer words :P
Quote from: RebeccaFog on May 17, 2007, 01:19:51 PM
And to all, I say, forget creating a dozen new religions. We shall all worship Blair!!!
(huzzah, huzzah!)
Oh, please!
... Don't tempt me.
~ Blair
Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 01:23:01 PM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 17, 2007, 01:21:03 PM
My god loves all of you. Unconditionally.
Cindi
heh I think we just said exactly the same thing (look up) yet you did it with so fewer words :P
When I posted, you had just posted your response. I hadn't read it before mine went up.
If God loves unconditionally, then does God love evil? I mean it as a logic question.
if P <-> Q, being that's really the definition of the unconditional part, so P -> Q wouldn't be necessary.
So lemme make this into a predicate calculus form for the sake of simplicity... P(x) = "God loves X, unconditionally."
Since I can't figure out an ASCII code for an upside down A as used in predicate calculus as the qualifier for universal application, I'll use the V instead for simplicity as well.
Vx P(x), translation: For all x, God loves x, unconditionally.
When I was a Christian, I would not have agreed to this point, nor would I today under the premises laid down in Judaic/Christian theology. But that's just me.
-- Brede
Are you a robot? Seriously?
Unconditional love means complete understanding. It seems strange to me that someone who believes everyone is born tabula rasa would use a term like "evil". I would consider evil anything that makes someone feel dead and cold inside (dishonesty, cruelty, selfishness, etc.)
God loves your "evil" people because deep down, they're still that wet, crying baby that they started out as, and just want to be loved. God is just doing what everyone wishes they could do, and will do, someday.
~ Blair
Let's bring it to terms with which we are a bit more familiar. Could you not love your child, regardless of what your child had done? Would you not have heartache for her torment if she had GID? Would you not rent your very soul if he committed murder?
Assuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?
When I imagine what god may be, I think of a loving parent who wants only the best for his/her creation and children. And I call that unconditional love. Now, this is not a belief, it is a product of my own desires. The logic is mine based on my emotions and the few remnants of faith I have left.
The truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind. You can't measure it, quantify it, or calculate it. But you will know it when you see it.
Cindi
Quote from: Blair on May 17, 2007, 01:33:31 PM
Are you a robot? Seriously?
ORLY? :3
QuoteUnconditional love means complete understanding.
So I can understand why something is evil? That really seems weird, just my view on that.
QuoteIt seems strange to me that someone who believes everyone is born tabula rasa would use a term like "evil".
Not really, because nothing is ever arbitrary, especially ethics. Just like mathematics, there's a right way and there's a wrong way in doing things. Sometimes it's hard to see when that opens up to us to see, but it's there none the less. But one must always parse an error in knowledge from an error in morality. One is from ignorance and the other is from willfulness.
QuoteI would consider evil anything that makes someone feel dead and cold inside (dishonesty, cruelty, selfishness, etc.)
Selfishness doesn't make one cold or dead. Plus, this definition of evil makes evil subjective. Killing jews made Hitler and the Nazis feel happy. The iron fist rule of Mao made some feel good because they "had a purpose." And so on. By this definition evil can be good sometimes.
Where as if evil is defined as simply anything that destroys one's life such that it's against one's will as a choice, then evil is not good, ever. I prefer this definition, above all the other ones I've seen, for the fact that it doesn't make self-inflicted harm an evil, nor does it make morally neutral positions immoral, and it doesn't make anyone obligated to be a sacrificial lamb to others to prevent/stop evil. It's probably the most liberal (classical and modern) definition of evil I've seen so far. So I'll stick with it, but I'm open to a better one if anyone is willing to point me to it. :)
QuoteGod loves your "evil" people because deep down, they're still that wet, crying baby that they started out as, and just want to be loved. God is just doing what everyone wishes they could do, and will do, someday.
No, not really. That baby is gone with the first thought it grasps. It's pure innocence, so it's simply the state of being purely ignorant of something. You can be generally innocent as we see everyday in our lives, but not purely innocent. So, consider all the bad folks in history: Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, and so on. These folks have done great evils when they were on Earth, and to say anyone could forgive them in whole is mistaken. I doubt any jew will ever forgive Hitler. I doubt any lover of ancient Chinese culture will forgive Mao, nor any teacher ("Kill all the teachers..." Mao's little red book) for that matter. Nor will the nearly countless people slaughtered or maimed by Pol Pot. Evil of this kind cannot be taken back, and the loss from it will never be fully restored. As much as I am a fan of mercy and compassion, there are exceptions and great evil, true evil is the only exception. Ignorance, honest admissions of guilt, and honest restitution are all acceptable means to forgiveness. Hell, I can even forgive a transphobic person for being one, when they recognize how stupid his/her position is wrong.
But that's just me.
-- Brede
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 17, 2007, 01:43:29 PM
Let's bring it to terms with which we are a bit more familiar. Could you not love your child, regardless of what your child had done? Would you not have heartache for her torment if she had GID? Would you not rent your very soul if he committed murder?
Assuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?
When I imagine what god may be, I think of a loving parent who wants only the best for his/her creation and children. And I call that unconditional love. Now, this is not a belief, it is a product of my own desires. The logic is mine based on my emotions and the few remnants of faith I have left.
The truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind.
Cindi
To love another human is to love yourself, I believe.
I concluded some time ago that love is a species-wide survival instinct; without it, we die. There
has to be a certain irrationality when it comes to the preservation of human life. We have to be irrationally disturbed when children are hurt, or when others are being tortured. We have to vomit when we see dismembered body parts.
To desensitize these instincts is to basically say, "Killing other people is okay." Progress, right? In which direction?
~ Blair
QuoteAssuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?
But doesn't that mean God has a limit on its love? I mean we all do. I doubt I could love anyone that raped me. Or love someone that nearly killed me. I can't say you would think the same way, but I know that in general you would probably have a hard time trying to find anything to like about someone who would do such evil to you, or others for that matter.
QuoteThe truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind. You can't measure it, quantify it, or calculate it. But you will know it when you see it.
I would argue you can measure it by the fact you can contrast it against other states of being. Love for example, is the identification or valuation of something. I love my freedom, because it is of great value to me. I love my mom, because she is a great person of value to me. And so on. These may not have physical quantities but they do have quantities of measure. And that's why we can say, I love you. Or I don't like what you did to me. Or I forgive you. These are all states, which our mind has to measure as to know when to 'do' them, or react to them. Either in recognition or as a means to act.
-- Brede
Thank you for that, Brede.
I especially liked the part about how killing the Jews made Hitler and the Nazis "happy". Yes, I'm sure that's what it was. Happy is the word. I had to laugh at that.
Yes Brede. It is just you.
~ Blair
Quote from: Blair on May 17, 2007, 01:51:54 PM
Thank you for that, Brede.
I especially liked the part about how killing the Jews made Hitler and the Nazis "happy". Yes, I'm sure that's what it was. Happy is the word. I had to laugh at that.
Yes Brede. It is just you.
~ Blair
No, you have to prove it so. Saying things are so, don't work for logic nor science. :)
You say, evil is what makes people cold or 'dead' inside. Some people, serial killers, feel 'alive' when they murder other people. Is it acceptable then?
Consider your ideas critically, because that's the problem here. You're making nicely worded phrases, but when one critically examines them, they don't hold up to reason. It's very dangerous to leave hanging 'threads' as it were.
-- Brede
Quote from: Attis on May 17, 2007, 01:46:59 PM
Quote from: Blair on May 17, 2007, 01:33:31 PM
QuoteUnconditional love means complete understanding.
So I can understand why something is evil? That really seems weird, just my view on that.
I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...
'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'
Call it a load of hot air, obviously.
Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 02:00:07 PM
Quote from: Attis on May 17, 2007, 01:46:59 PM
Quote from: Blair on May 17, 2007, 01:33:31 PM
QuoteUnconditional love means complete understanding.
So I can understand why something is evil? That really seems weird, just my view on that.
Why would you NOT want to understand why something is evil? Isn't that how we learn? And in our learning, isn't that how we evolve?
And here's one for you Brede...*evil* is subjective depending on *who* is defining it. There are some that view TS as evil and aren't you - like everyone else seeking understanding? Oh or are those people just ignorant? Because if you label them as such, know your ignorance will stand out all the more ;)
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 02:01:21 PM
I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...
'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'
Call it a load of hot air, obviously.
I was taught that it meant to reject God after a certain closeness to Him. Pretty much the only types who would even be capable of this, would be your Elijahs, Moses's, John the Baptists, etc.
Quote from: togetherwecan on May 17, 2007, 02:01:53 PM
Why would you NOT want to understand why something is evil? Isn't that how we learn? And in our learning, isn't that how we evolve?
Of course you can, but there's nothing to understand in the sense of compassion or love for it. For example, I don't try to understand why people steal from the store I work at, I just recognize it's wrong due to that it takes valuable resources and rightfully owned property from the company. And that hurts me indirectly in that there's less things to sell at the store, which means less money for me, and money being the means to gain things to sustain my life, thusly my life is also hurt.
QuoteAnd here's one for you Brede...*evil* is subjective depending on *who* is defining it.
No, it's not. Do I get to redefine the addition and subtraction rules? No, they're invariant. Evil, in essence, is the subtraction from one's (or others) life. Good is the addition to one's (or others) life. This means, being gay isn't evil. Being white or black isn't evil. But being a thief, a murderer, and a destroyer of life is evil. You see how simple it works? You see how elegant it operates? How free people because from the old conceptions? No more does one have to feel guilty for being selfish and gaining wealth. No more does one have to feel bad if one does not like someone. And no more does one feel guilt if one is not of the same faith (or lack thereof) of others. It's also measurable across all cultures. We can go to any place on Earth and use it to deduce the nature of morality in each situation. It also does not subscribe any particular ideal other than the sustainment of human individual life. It is the most general and the most accurate of definitions for those reasons above. Every other definition of good and evil cannot follow in this form for the fact they disregard the material requirements for existence, especially for happiness.
QuoteOh or are those people just ignorant? Because if you label them as such, know your ignorance will stand out all the more ;)
Yes they are ignorant, and no I am not ignorant because of that declaration. You need to prove the case that when I show that someone is ignorant, that I am ignorant in kind. By your logic, a teacher who corrects a student in a matter of knowledge is ignorant as well. And that leads to further absurdities.
Either we exist in a world where our knowledge follows from Nature, or we exist in a world where all knowledge is not knowledge of anything but ourselves. I prefer the former, because it's validated everyday when I use a tool like my bike, my mind, my computer, and so on. The latter does not get validated anywhere.
-- Brede
Quote from: Nero on May 17, 2007, 02:12:20 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 02:01:21 PM
I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...
'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'
Call it a load of hot air, obviously.
I was taught that it meant to reject God after a certain closeness to Him. Pretty much the only types who would even be capable of this, would be your Elijahs, Moses's, John the Baptists, etc.
As the atheist child of a reverend, having been born 'of a miracle' as they say - I reckon I'm close enough to do a bit of blasphemy, maybe not quite the big shots you mentioned, but enough.
But as an atheist who is head over heels with the idea of God, and would like very little more than it to be true, I don't think I could ever personally reject God, just reject the question of God being a meaningful one.....But you must admit the holy ghost would be insulted by that....or being asked whether it could bugger off and get someone more famous, like Caspar.
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 03:18:23 PM
Quote from: Nero on May 17, 2007, 02:12:20 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 02:01:21 PM
I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...
'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'
Call it a load of hot air, obviously.
I was taught that it meant to reject God after a certain closeness to Him. Pretty much the only types who would even be capable of this, would be your Elijahs, Moses's, John the Baptists, etc.
As the atheist child of a reverend, having been born 'of a miracle' as they say - I reckon I'm close enough to do a bit of blasphemy, maybe not quite the big shots you mentioned, but enough.
But as an atheist who is head over heels with the idea of God, and would like very little more than it to be true, I don't think I could ever personally reject God, just reject the question of God being a meaningful one.....But you must admit the holy ghost would be insulted by that....or being asked whether it could bugger off and get someone more famous, like Caspar.
Come now. It's pretty unlikely that Caspar is bigger than the Holy Ghost. Isn't Caspar only about 2.5 feet tall?
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 17, 2007, 01:43:29 PM
Let's bring it to terms with which we are a bit more familiar. Could you not love your child, regardless of what your child had done? Would you not have heartache for her torment if she had GID? Would you not rent your very soul if he committed murder?
Assuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?
When I imagine what god may be, I think of a loving parent who wants only the best for his/her creation and children. And I call that unconditional love. Now, this is not a belief, it is a product of my own desires. The logic is mine based on my emotions and the few remnants of faith I have left.
The truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind. You can't measure it, quantify it, or calculate it. But you will know it when you see it.
Cindi
I like to consider God as a loving parent aswell. He(or she) is our father (or mother... sometimes I think God is actually a female... then again god is everything.) in heavan... He(or she) created us and so we are his children... And I can't imagine any good loving parent condemning their child because they feel there is something wrong with their body, that they want to change. So I can't imagine God doing such a thing either.
I like your reasoning, Chandra.
Looking at the subject of this thread - "Religion and Transexuality... Why must they Contridict?" - I would say that they do not have to conflict. They conflict under certain circumstances depending on who is expressing or representing 'Religion'.
There are congregations where there is no contradiction or friction between the Religion and transsexuality. After reading some of your posts here, I believe you will find what you are looking for.
Love,
Rebecca
Quote from: Attis on May 17, 2007, 01:51:37 PM
QuoteAssuming that a god did create us. Would his/her capacity to love be less than our own?
But doesn't that mean God has a limit on its love? I mean we all do. I doubt I could love anyone that raped me. Or love someone that nearly killed me. I can't say you would think the same way, but I know that in general you would probably have a hard time trying to find anything to like about someone who would do such evil to you, or others for that matter.
You deleted the context. If that person were your child, would you still love the child? And in that context is god's love (for his/her own children) less than our own mortal capacity?
QuoteQuoteThe truth of love is in the expression, compassion and charity spread by people who have great caring for human kind. You can't measure it, quantify it, or calculate it. But you will know it when you see it.
I would argue you can measure it by the fact you can contrast it against other states of being. Love for example, is the identification or valuation of something. I love my freedom, because it is of great value to me. I love my mom, because she is a great person of value to me. And so on. These may not have physical quantities but they do have quantities of measure. And that's why we can say, I love you. Or I don't like what you did to me. Or I forgive you. These are all states, which our mind has to measure as to know when to 'do' them, or react to them. Either in recognition or as a means to act.
In my world god is love. And so, we pull you to the dark side.... ;)
Chin up!
Cindi
I suppose the reason that they may conflict could be a bit like when your parents buy you some clothes, and they are not nice, and you reject those clothes and your parents call you ungrateful...but if I believed in God and God was like a parent feeling a bit hard-done-by then I wouldn't want to believe in God anyway.
Well I just told the missionaries serving in my area that I am Gay but I don't act on it by being in relationships with men or anything (which is true. I act upon it by being in relationships with women. ^_^) and they told me that they ACKNOWLEDGE the fact that gays, lesbians and bisexuals do not choose to be who they are but still think that acting upon what is natural to them is a sin. Interesting... Makes me want to ask them "Why would God be so sinister to make them who they are and then command them not to be that way?"
I never really told them that I'm transexual too (though I did give them a hint of it ^_^)... because I'm pretty sure I don't want to be a member of this religion anymore. I'll still attend church with them for the time being, because I think they are very morally good people (they don't drink, smoke, swear or gamble, they follow the ten commandents faithfully and they're always there to lend a hand to their fellow human beings) and i have always believed in a very similar concept of God as they do. Plus, as I said somewhere else in this topic, If it is not inspired by God the Book of Mormon is still a really good novel!
Your question is actually a very smart observation of "religion gone hypocritical." All living creatures on this earth are unique and deserve dignity and respect. That doesn't mean we have to like everyone's choices or actions, but we should respect them as long as their lives don't directly threaten ours and cause us harm. I think we should get out of God's way and let Him deal with all of us, and I think He would not be too happy if I were a mean spirited person judging others and not evaluating my own flaws first. Perhaps that answers your question: whether we are transsexual, straight, gay, or whatever, we are all flawed individuals who have sinned in some way, so it is difficult to be perfect.
Quote from: Butterfly on May 22, 2007, 10:37:43 AM
Your question is actually a very smart observation of "religion gone hypocritical." All living creatures on this earth are unique and deserve dignity and respect. That doesn't mean we have to like everyone's choices or actions, but we should respect them as long as their lives don't directly threaten ours and cause us harm. I think we should get out of God's way and let Him deal with all of us, and I think He would not be too happy if I were a mean spirited person judging others and not evaluating my own flaws first. Perhaps that answers your question: whether we are transsexual, straight, gay, or whatever, we are all flawed individuals who have sinned in some way, so it is difficult to be perfect.
Yes, I've noticed that many (I wont say all) Christians seam to be hypocrites. Jesus made it very clear that we are to love our neighbours... that means everyone and anyone, regardless of if they are black or white, gay or straight, transexual or not, sinner or saint... we are commanded to love our neighbors and respect them. So I really don't see how persicution against homosexuals and transexuals fits in with Loving your neighbor. Its hypocrisy, plain and simple, and I don't believe that the God I believe in would tolerate it.
To answer your initial question, religion and transsexuality do not have to contradict. Christianity and transsexuality do not have to contradict, and in some times and places have not contradicted. The contradiction is in this time and place with this brand of Christianity. And I am not referring to Mormonism specifically when I say this. I'm talking about Christian Fundamentalists of all labels.
Quote from: Chandra21 on May 22, 2007, 02:50:22 PM
Yes, I've noticed that many (I wont say all) Christians seam to be hypocrites. Jesus made it very clear that we are to love our neighbours... that means everyone and anyone, regardless of if they are black or white, gay or straight, transexual or not, sinner or saint... we are commanded to love our neighbors and respect them. So I really don't see how persicution against homosexuals and transexuals fits in with Loving your neighbor. Its hypocrisy, plain and simple, and I don't believe that the God I believe in would tolerate it.
A big, hearty "AMEN" to that one! We can all be hypocrites in one fashion or another. But you're so right. Scripture says, "God is love." Not, "God is love to everyone... *but he's a brute bastard who would condemn those he creates as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender."
There is no asterisk. Period.
Quote from: David W. Shelton on May 22, 2007, 04:01:47 PM
Quote from: Chandra21 on May 22, 2007, 02:50:22 PM
Yes, I've noticed that many (I wont say all) Christians seam to be hypocrites. Jesus made it very clear that we are to love our neighbours... that means everyone and anyone, regardless of if they are black or white, gay or straight, transexual or not, sinner or saint... we are commanded to love our neighbors and respect them. So I really don't see how persicution against homosexuals and transexuals fits in with Loving your neighbor. Its hypocrisy, plain and simple, and I don't believe that the God I believe in would tolerate it.
A big, hearty "AMEN" to that one! We can all be hypocrites in one fashion or another. But you're so right. Scripture says, "God is love." Not, "God is love to everyone... *but he's a brute bastard who would condemn those he creates as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender."
There is no asterisk. Period.
Dunno, that Bible is written in very small print...
In a perfect world.....
I believe that most religions would teach a way of life, a set of moral values to live by, and that we should "just get along" with each other.
Science is a process by which we question, collect information, and learn about our world around us.
So, indeed, why can't the two cohabit in this place we call life?
I still can't understand why it can't work.
Cindi
Quote from: Nero on May 17, 2007, 02:12:20 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 02:01:21 PM
I'm going to ignore the fun bickering for the moment and address an important and over looked part of this post...namely...
'How do you insult the Holy Ghost?'
Call it a load of hot air, obviously.
I was taught that it meant to reject God after a certain closeness to Him. Pretty much the only types who would even be capable of this, would be your Elijahs, Moses's, John the Baptists, etc.
I remember being taught that when I was growing up in the Baptist church. Then I became a Lutheran and
they said that it had to do with people showing the fruits of the spirit and their enemies saying that it was Satan doing it instead of the Holy Spirit.