Kia Ora,
::) Before I transitioned, I cross dressed for many years and only on the odd occasion did I dress according to my gender identity...
::) Cross dressing is 'normally' thought of as when a person of one sex, dresses in the clothing of their opposite sex/gender...
So when it comes to transsexual/transgender people...
Does cross dressing 'begin' from birth, up until one is fully transitioned ? [Transitioned = with or without surgery]
Or when one first starts to dress in the clothing of their opposite birth sex?
"Cross Dressing"....Things are not quite what they seem....
This link; 'Boy will be girls and girls will be boys'-the topic of 'unbreeching' I found quite interesting, you might too...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys))
Metta Zenda :)
For me, I stopped considering myself a crossdresser as soon as I admitted to myself that I was going to pursue transition. But I think it just depends on each person's unique situation
If for some unfortunate reason I chose to detransition (I don't see that happening), I would probably go back to considering myself a crossdresser
Believe it or not I was just thinking about this a day or two ago. I think it has to do with what gender you consider yourself to be, so if you're trying to be a guy but you wear women's clothes then you're crossdressing. Once you identify as female, even if you haven't changed anything else about your lifestyle, then wearing your old male clothes could be considered crossdressing.
Surely cross dressing is what others percieve.
It's just clothes after all.
I'm not sure what you are asking here :-\.
But I can say that from this logic I would be a trans woman? Cross dressing is when you wear clothes of your opposite gender not sex.
I was a cross dresser for the first 34 years of my life.. I gave it up when I came out - no, I didn't quite go full time, I dressed kinda fem andro..
Between the ages of 38 and 39, I considered myself to be a cross-dresser. Between 39 and about 41, I considered myself to be genderfluid, so I wasn't really cross-dressing at that point. I had different presentations but they were both "me" so to speak.
But I guess the reality was that I began cross-dressing when I first became aware of gender, between the ages of 5 and 7. I just wasn't fully aware of it until much later in life.
Which brings up the question, if I had thought I was a guy even though I wasn't which presentation was cross-dressed: male or female?
The moment I accepted my self as I am mens cloths became my cross dressing.
Kia Ora and thank you to all those who have put forward their thoughts on this...
Quote from: spacial on January 15, 2013, 08:52:09 AM
Surely cross dressing is what others percieve.
It's just clothes after all.
Kia Ora Jill,
Very good point
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on January 15, 2013, 09:25:35 AM
I'm not sure what you are asking here :-\.
But I can say that from this logic I would be a trans woman? Cross dressing is when you wear clothes of your opposite gender not sex.
Kia Ora SH,
I guess it would depend on ones' definitions of sex and gender
"Sex refers to the biological distinction between males and females; by contrast, gender concerns the social differences between males and females. Research in sociology focuses on gender rather than sex; sociologists distinguish between sex and gender to study differences between human males and females with greater precision. Whereas sex is based on physical differences, gender is based on social factors such as values, perceptions, beliefs, and attitudes. For example, men and women have different genitalia; this is a difference of sex. Men and woman also face different social expectations, as when women are expected to be more nurturing than men; this is a difference of gender. Gender varies across time and culture, as different groups have different beliefs about appropriate behaviour for males and females!"
But I do see the grey area when it comes to the trans-male, many of you from a fairly young age get to wear pant of some kind and quite often shirts, perhaps a slightly different style/cut to male pants and shirts-[I guess some actually wear male pants and shirts ] so for the most part, you are in a sense only cross dressing when you have to wear a dress or skirt...
Quote from: Constance on January 15, 2013, 10:44:55 AM
I had different presentations but they were both "me" so to speak.
Which brings up the question, if I had thought I was a guy even though I wasn't which presentation was cross-dressed: male or female?
Kia Ora Constance,
You hit the nail on the head ie, for the trans-person when is cross dressing 'not' cross dressing?
Quote from: LilDevilOfPrada on January 15, 2013, 12:37:42 PM
The moment I accepted my self as I am mens cloths became my cross dressing.
Kia Ora LDOP,
That's true, there seems to be a shift in ones perception, with full self-acceptance ...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on January 15, 2013, 09:30:18 AM
I was a cross dresser for the first 34 years of my life.. I gave it up when I came out - no, I didn't quite go full time, I dressed kinda fem andro..
Kia Ora Kelly,
I think we are on the same page here, in how we perceived cross dressing ....
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on January 15, 2013, 12:50:24 PM
Kia Ora Constance,
You hit the nail on the head ie, for the trans-person when is cross dressing 'not' cross dressing?
At this point I'm no longer cross-dressing. Since going full-time in September 2011 I disposed of all my male attire and dress to match my identity.
Quote from: Zenda on January 15, 2013, 12:50:24 PM
But I do see the grey area when it comes to the trans-male, many of you from a fairly young age get to wear pant of some kind and quite often shirts, perhaps a slightly different style/cut to male pants and shirts-[I guess some actually wear male pants and shirts ] so for the most part, you are in a sense only cross dressing when you have to wear a dress or skirt...
I get the general point(s) being made, but for me "cross-dressing" is a complicated word, open to several contradictory definitions.
There were (presumably) cisgendered guys when I was growing up who would appear crossdressed at public events, particularly at costume parties, where it seemed clear they were doing it for laughs. I remember looking at them, and resenting that if I had done the (supposedly) same thing, it would have probably been obvious I was doing it as an expression of my real self... I'd have been offended if someone tried to interpret it as a joke in fact.
On the FTM side, I know that my son makes a conscious decision now that he is out in public, to shop in the men's department, to try to avoid any questions about his identity, even though, right now, he's not really able to pull that off entirely -- due to an ample chest and facial features, and other lack of testosterone effects.
For both of us, appearing as the gender we were CAAB is not much fun, and the implication of "cross dressing" as a term tends to be that it is done for some kind of secondary gain, to signify to others how one identifies, or because the dressing itself is some sort of turn on.
Personally I went through all sorts of arcane efforts to find some neutral way to dress and present myself, with none of them ever that satisfying in the end.
In the interest of saving typing... does the following count as cross dressing or not?
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-25srP0nK4g0/UPW2mvnNakI/AAAAAAAACgg/P3MQtMCAI-A/s675/folkblouse.jpg)
I remember thinking at the time that I'd have rather been wearing a blouse like the one my partner was wearing there, but the style of mine is still fairly femme, though the colors leave some room for doubt.
Similarly:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gBhLyAWEU2I/UPW2ms7NkEI/AAAAAAAACgc/ZxIhcYKbuuk/s675/mommyandme+outfits.jpg)
This too was a compromise. I would have much rather chosen outfits like the ones in this article (http://ireckonthat.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/mother-daughter-matching-outfits/), but I was (realistically) scared of frightening off other parents and getting more isolated. Pretty sure the outfit shown came entirely from women's departments, considering there's so little market for "daddy and me" dresses or even onesies. I'm sure my plaid shorts did. (Ick, this was also before I was shaving my legs... sorry).
I also suspect my trans son (in the pic) is somewhat glad that at least some of the times I was dressing him androgynously, through almost no intent of my own.
Quote from: spacial on January 15, 2013, 08:52:09 AM
Surely cross dressing is what others percieve.
It's just clothes after all.
bras for a bro? >:-) :laugh: :laugh: :angel:
Quote from: Elspeth on January 15, 2013, 02:25:05 PM
I get the general point(s) being made, but for me "cross-dressing" is a complicated word, open to several contradictory definitions.
Kia Ora Elspeth
Hence : Cross Dressing = "Things are not quite what they seem !"
Interesting name BTW, I had never heard of it until last March when I was interviewed by a lady called Elspeth-[whose partner was a trans-woman]...She was doing a university paper on how trans-people cope in society 'NZ society'-She was interviewing stealthers and non stealthers... I was told it was Welsh...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on January 15, 2013, 02:51:20 PM
Interesting name BTW, I had never heard of it until last March when I was interviewed by a lady called Elspeth-[whose partner was a trans-woman]...She was doing a university paper on how trans-people cope in society 'NZ society'-She was interviewing stealthers and non stealthers... I was told it was Welsh...
Welsh background is one of the reasons I use it as a screen name. There's an Elizabeth Blakemore in my ancestry, who came from near the border with Wales, and it's almost certain most of that family were originally Welsh. She's the inspiration behind most of my online screen names, as well at the pen name I've used for decades.
But one can never just register "Elizabeth" or any of its variants without adding something. Elspeth is almost never taken, though. ;)
When I get around to making a legal name change, it will probably be one that starts with "E", in light of all that. One of my first transwoman friends really hates "Elspeth" as a choice, but she's a bit of a stick in the mud on these things, and was looking to go very stealth when she transitioned about 20 years ago. She did have a point, that it was not a name much used where I grew up. Then again, I went to a college where nearly all my fellow students seemed to have unusual given names.
Not sure just why I'm still open to negotiation on that particular point, other than that I don't want to go through a second namechange (I changed surnames at marriage, and hung onto mine after divorce, to keep the same name as my kids) without being sure it's a name I want to stick with.
Quote from: peky on January 15, 2013, 02:39:59 PM
bras for a bro? >:-) :laugh: :laugh: :angel:
Kia Ora Peky,
http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/manbra.jpg (http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/manbra.jpg)
Now wipe that smile off your face ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on January 15, 2013, 03:30:57 PM
http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/manbra.jpg (http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/manbra.jpg)
"It's not a bra, it's a bro."
Quote from: Constance on January 15, 2013, 03:39:29 PM
"It's not a bra, it's a bro."
Interesting brandname.
必要 in Japanese (Hitsuyō) and Chinese (Bìyào) translates as "necessary." I don't read Japanese or I'd translate the entire text of the ad.
Kia Ora,
::) Slightly off topic, but what the heck...
I remember reading a while back about the "New Halfs" of Japan...So I did a search but couldn't find the original info but I did find this...
Quote :
Japanese words for transsexual and transgender[according to a Yahoo answer]
ニューハーフ nyuu haafu [New Half=Transsexual]
トランスジェンダー toransu jendaa
More slangy words are like okami (for male) and onabe (for female).
A person who has had it done would be like 性転換者 seitenkansha
Metta Zenda :)
Alright... seeing that ad made me laugh I may as well give the translation:
それは客さまの一言から始まりました。
sore wa kyakusama no ichiken kara hajimarima->-bleeped-<-a.
Because that is the most commented thing by customers it's started.
「どうしてメンズブラはないの？」
Dou->-bleeped-<-e menzubura wa nai no?
Why are there no mens bra?
どうしてって。。。必要はないのから。。。？
dou->-bleeped-<-ette... hitsuyou wa nai no kara...?
Why it is said... because there's no need?
でも。。。「ほしい」と思っているひとがいるということは。。。
demo.... hoshii to omotte iru hito ga iru to iu koto wa....
But... it is said that there are those who think "I want one"...
必要ということ。
hitsuyou to iu koto.
It is something necessary.
Back on topic. I think it boils down to your internal gender identity. Personally I feel that I'm crossdressed 99% of the time seeing that I live in male mode. :P
Correction:
okama is homosexual male that is effeminate/drag queen.
Quote from: peky on January 15, 2013, 02:39:59 PM
bras for a bro? >:-) :laugh: :laugh: :angel:
Depends if you see a bra as a symbol or a necessity.
Quote from: spacial on January 16, 2013, 08:03:48 AM
Depends if you see a bra as a symbol or a necessity.
let me ask my auntie Sylvia, she is a 40 3DDD...symbol or necessity? Come on girl? even I with my little B cup could not run up and down stairs with the jiggling giving me the auchies
Quote from: Zenda on January 15, 2013, 03:30:57 PM
Kia Ora Peky,
http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/manbra.jpg (http://www.atalude.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/manbra.jpg)
Now wipe that smile off your face ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
It is Japan girl!!! out of this world >:-) :laugh: :laugh: :angel:
Quote from: peky on January 16, 2013, 10:20:28 AM
It is Japan girl!!! out of this world >:-) :laugh: :laugh: :angel:
As the meme says...
QuoteDear Japan,
Seriously, WTF?
Sincerely,
The Rest of the World
Back to the topic for a second... for me, I started cross-dressing when I was 5.
To be more precise, I'd worn girls' clothing pretty much from birth because my mother was so enamoured of the idea of her 'pretty blonde daughter' that she'd always dress me up in frilly girly stuff. Every photo of me taken before the age of 5 shows me dressed up like a human doll.
But at the age of 5 I started to notice gender differences between boys & girls, and I realised to my horror that everyone was lumping me into the 'girls' category when I knew I should be in the 'boys' category. I told my parents straight away but of course they denied it. I wore boys' clothes wherever possible (usually my brother's old hand-me-downs) but I was forced to wear dresses for my school uniform, and my mother would force me to wear dresses if I wanted to attend any parties.
From the age of 5, wearing those dresses felt, to me, like cross-dressing. It ended when I refused to ever wear women's clothing again.
The first thing I actually wore (aside from embarrassing stories involving siblings' tiny one-piece swimsuits) was after I started hormones. I realized I had started with actual breasts, and figured "Why not?" I don't consider it cross dressing, though. Probably because I feel like I've crossed a line with regards to my own identity. I'm not a boy in a bra; I'm a girl in progress. No guilt, no shame, no worries. :)
Quote from: ZoeM on January 16, 2013, 11:55:27 AM
I'm a girl in progress.
That's a cool way to describe it.
I've underdressed off and on for years. Been out fully dressed a few times, but really I don't want to simply dress, I want to become a woman, and there's a huge difference there. Since I do not FEEL like a woman when I dress I gain no pleasure from the activity, hence I don't dress all that much. I've started hair removal and am working at slimming down. Hopefully I'll get to where I feel good about my body and the way I look so I can start moving forward with dressing and presenting myself as a woman.
Quote from: luna nyan on January 16, 2013, 06:21:58 AM
Alright... seeing that ad made me laugh I may as well give the translation:
それは客さまの一言から始まりました。
sore wa kyakusama no ichiken kara hajimarima->-bleeped-<-a.
Because that is the most commented thing by customers it's started.
「どうしてメンズブラはないの？」
Dou->-bleeped-<-e menzubura wa nai no?
Why are there no mens bra?
どうしてって。。。必要はないのから。。。？
dou->-bleeped-<-ette... hitsuyou wa nai no kara...?
Why it is said... because there's no need?
でも。。。「ほしい」と思っているひとがいるということは。。。
demo.... hoshii to omotte iru hito ga iru to iu koto wa....
But... it is said that there are those who think "I want one"...
必要ということ。
hitsuyou to iu koto.
It is something necessary.
Back on topic. I think it boils down to your internal gender identity. Personally I feel that I'm crossdressed 99% of the time seeing that I live in male mode. :P
Correction:
okama is homosexual male that is effeminate/drag queen.
Konichiwa luna nyan,
Many thanks for the translation... ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: peky on January 16, 2013, 10:18:51 AM
let me ask my auntie Sylvia, she is a 40 3DDD...symbol or necessity? Come on girl? even I with my little B cup could not run up and down stairs with the jiggling giving me the auchies
That would then demonstrate that a bra is a necessity.
Any obsession by a 'bro' would be for what it represents. Nurturing a baby.